Talk:Fall of the Assad regime

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On 8 December 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from Fall of the Assad dynasty to Fall of the Assad regime. The result of the discussion was Moved.

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Fall of the Assad regime

I propose WP:MERGE WP:CONCISE Fall of the Assad dynasty → Fall of the Assad regime, MOS:AT. QalasQalas (talk) 06:10, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, and have placed a WP:RMTM for this. The Assads weren't royalty and didn't present themselves as such. In theory, the Baath Party leadership could have passed to others. SnowFire (talk) 07:49, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment below. Beshogur (talk) 08:57, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bashar al-Assad has probably died from a plane crash

There's reports suggesting that Bashar al-Assad has been killed in a plane crash (possibly fake). I feel like this should definitely be mentioned here. However, the reports are unconfirmed. Thoughts? Hacked (Talk|Contribs) 06:17, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing should be done, unless it is confirmed. We need to wait this situation out. DerEchteJoan (talk) 12:35, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 8 December 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. WP:SNOW close, clear consensus in favor. —Ganesha811 (talk) 12:34, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fall of the Assad dynasty → Fall of the Assad regime – Just check the titles of the sources below, and how mainstream media calls this Assad regime, not dynasty. Search results: "fall of the assad dynasty" / "fall of the assad regime" anyways regime had been the most common word describing the government. WP:COMMONNAME. Beshogur (talk) 08:52, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support “dynasty” is used for monarchies and regardless regime is the most used 78.182.128.136 (talk) 09:50, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support, ‘dynasty’ is more of an informal moniker when referring to Assad’s (sr and jr’s) government, while “regime” is more formal and more often used The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 09:54, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support This would make clarification better. It was also not a Monarchy. DerEchteJoan (talk) 09:57, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Question This article seems tied to Al-Assad family which says, The al-Assad family, also known as the Assad dynasty, is a Syrian political family that ruled Syria... (Italics used in place of bolded text.} If this article is moved, should the other article be adjusted? --Super Goku V (talk) 09:59, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article is about the family, noth about Hafez and Bashar alone. This is about the regime that ruled the country. Beshogur (talk) 10:11, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Assad's government was not a monarchy and its clearer to the reader what the article is about. YaBoiWilhelm (talk) 10:00, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support While the question of whether the government characterises itself using the term "dynasty" is not of necessary relevance to the article naming, it is also clear that scholarly and journalistic sources do not commonly use the term "dynasty". Y. Dongchen (talk) 10:16, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose The current title of dynasty is consistent with our article dynasty. Our article regime indicates that that term has a different meaning. Here are their definitions:

A dynasty is a sequence of rulers from the same family, usually in the context of a monarchical system, but sometimes also appearing in republics.

In politics, a regime (also spelled régime) is a system of government that determines access to public office, and the extent of power held by officials.

So, the Assad family was a dynasty. The regime was Ba'ath Party (Syrian-dominated faction).

Andrew🐉(talk) 10:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not going to try to convince you but almost no one calls it the Ba'athist regime, but rather the Assad regime (media, etc.) WP:COMMONNAME, whether it's true or not. Beshogur (talk) 10:33, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Syria has been notified of this discussion. HurricaneEdgar 10:28, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support by the reasons exposed by other editors (not a monarchy, better clarification). Impru20^talk 10:52, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support, having in mind the (at least nominal) republican nature of the Assad/Ba'athist regime. — Sundostund mppria ^{(talk / contribs)} 11:21, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support as per WP:COMMONNAME.Regime is the more commonly used term and better reflects the ongoing collapse of an entire regime as opposed to a single family dynasty. Guinsardrhineford0079 (talk) 11:22, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per WP:NPOV. --Norden1990 (talk) 11:41, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Thought it over for a bit, and the fact the word "regime" is very loaded term, but Fall of the Fascist regime in Italy being at that title means its not without precedent. Also, the other preceding or ancillary members of the Assad family are not really relevant to this article.</MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont /> 11:48, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support, it's the WP:COMMONNAME and using 'dynasty' presents WP:NPOV issues. AlexandraAVX (talk) 11:58, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support it is a dynasty but regime is the common name A Socialist Trans Girl 12:06, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Page Protection

Can someone please protect this page so only EC users can edit it, due to constant vandalism by IPs. Waleed (talk) 14:41, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can make a request for protection at WP:RfPP. —Ganesha811 (talk) 16:10, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There was already a request for protection made. Mellk (talk) 17:54, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fall of the government-that-we-don't-like

The current title means, effectively, Fall of the Assad government-that-we-don't/didn't-like.

While it's true that "regime" is widely used in the Western press, that's because Bashar al-Assad's government was widely seen as a government that "we" - leaders of Western states - didn't like. They happen to be right in my personal opinion, since al-Assad was a bloodthirsty tyrant, but that's irrelevant in this Wikipedia context. In normal content, we can't write "Assad regime", because that's WP:WEASELly. But for titles, we go by wide usage - WP:COMMONNAME. So two questions:

Can we use a weaselly name because it's widely used in the Western English-language press? (The above RM suggests "yes".)
Can we use or is it acceptable to use weaselly language in the content of this article to match the title, as an exception to WP:WEASEL?

The first question should probably only have loose discussion, unless the discussion starts evolving towards a "No" answer, since there was a snow close. At least in the short term, anyway.

For the second question, the precedent of Fall of the Fascist regime in Italy, a topic on which there have been many decades of historical discussion, I only see two non-quote usages of "regime" within the article, while "government" is used a lot more. I would tend to say "No", except in cases where it clearly refers to the general system of government, rather than the specific Assad government. The risk of "Yes" to the second question is that then we sound like we're presenting the preferences of Western governments in a WP:WEASELly way - instead of saying outright, Fall of the bloodthirsty Assad government, we're pretending to sound educated by confusing between a meaning useful in political sciences (general system of government) with a word that means "government" but adds a pejorative connotation: Fall of the nasty Assad government written in an intellectual-sounding way to camouflage the meaning. Boud (talk) 19:40, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The eagerness of the mainstream media and the unwitting cooperation of Wikipedians to use "regime" only for governments-that-Western-leaders-oppose makes me very much think of Two Minutes Hate. Boud (talk) 20:01, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The designation "regime" has a quite specific meaning in political science parlance, and it is misused, both deliberately and not, throughout the encyclopedia.

The bias goes back centuries, though.

cordially, Augmented Seventh (talk) 21:12, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 8 December 2024

It has been proposed in this section that Fall of the Assad regime be renamed and moved to Fall of the al-Assad regime.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

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Fall of the Assad regime → Fall of the al-Assad regime – Like al-Assad family. ArionStar (talk) 21:17, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Oppose nobody refers to them as 'al-Assad' unless using their full names. Assad is always used. Great Mercian (talk) 21:59, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]