Talk:The Holocaust

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IBM's and other Big Businesses Role in the Holocaust

In the section on compliance of German institutions it only mentions that Dehomag provided the punch card machines that allowed for the organization of the Holocaust. Dehomag was created by IBM so that it could continue to do business with the Nazis because Roosevelt finally made it illegal after the beginning of WWII for American firms to continue their business with the Nazis. There is also no section talking about the firms that made money by being complicit in the actions of the Holocaust. IBM is just the tip of the iceberg, there should be more information about just what roles businesses played in the holocaust if we are going to provide truly complete information on this topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.209.226.182 (talk) 21:25, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Proposed change to second paragraph of lede

I would like to raise a concern about the second paragraph of the lede. The original version reads as follows:

While there were other groups of people killed by the Nazi regime, scholars typically do not include them in the definition of the Holocaust, defining it as the genocide of the Jews,[3] or what the Nazis called the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question." Taking into account all the victims of Nazi persecution, the death toll, including non-Jews, is estimated at between 9 and 11 million.[4]

The problems I see here are: this version rather glosses over the death of at the very least, 3 million people. This should be given its own mention, without immediately referring back to the scholarly definition which excludes them. I think the current version does a terrible disservice to the dead. Also, it refers to people in these groups as "non-Jews". I doubt that the Roma, Poles, Slavs, Jehovah's Witnesses, gay men, transsexual people, Socialists, Communists, mentally retarded, mentally ill, and physically disabled people who were killed by the Nazis personally identify as "non-Jews". I do not consider it appropriate for us to define them in terms of their not being Jewish. Obviously, being "not Jewish" did not spare their lives. The current version simply does not give enough mention to these millions who were killed. My suggestions for the second paragraph reads as follows:

Scholars typically define the Holocaust as the genocide of the Jews, or what the Nazis called the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question."[3] However, people from many other social groups were targeted and slaughtered under the Nazi regime, and their numbers contribute to the total tally of Holocaust victims. Taking into account all the victims, the death toll is estimated at between 9 and 11 million.[4]

I feel that this is version is an improvement because the meaning is stated far more clearly. First, it is made clear that scholars define the term "the Holocaust" as regards to the Jewish people only. Second, it states that other groups were persecuted and killed under the Nazi regime. Third, it gives an estimate of how many more people in addition to the Jews were killed. Particularly good is the fact that this version conveniently works in the link to the Holocaust victims article, which discusses the greater breadth of the Nazi peril.

Since my attempt to include this version was reverted by Newtman without much explanation, I would appreciate it if ze and others would weigh in on this proposal. I am open to suggestions on the wording or grammatical structure. If you think any elements of the previous version are lost in this version, I am sure they can be reinstated. The elements I find most important are: refraining from defining these groups as "non-Jews", including the link to the Holocaust victims article, and giving a more frank mention of this terrible aspect of the Nazi regime. Please share your thoughts. Thank you. Photouploaded (talk) 22:00, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, SlimVirgin has now made another edit which expands the second paragraph substantially. This edit it also seems to reinstate many other edits further down in the article, so it may be reverted, however, I do support an expanded version that mentions the specific groups. Photouploaded (talk) 22:14, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi PU, I went back to the version of the lead from a few months ago that had strong consensus and was stable for some time. In it, we mention the other groups, but we also add that many scholars do not include them in the definition. We then have a long list of sources showing that. It makes the lead demonstrably true, but not in any way dismissive or disrespectful of those groups. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 22:27, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I like what Slim virgin has done, and I also recommend that the internal link added by PU be allowed to stay put. : Albion moonlight (talk) 22:37, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I also agree with what SV has done. However, typical of this project, we aren't getting anywhere. THE Holocaust, based upon a wealth of scholarly writings, is ONLY about the genocide of Jews by Nazis. I don't get where certain editors, for some odd reason, believe that THE Holocaust includes other ethnic groups, and also believe that the definition implicitly or explicitly demeans or denigrates the horrors that the Nazis did to other ethnic groups. Why isn't this article specifically about THE Holocaust. I don't get it. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 22:43, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

This isn't a "belief". See Holocaust victims; the Nazi regime sought to eradicate many groups they found undesirable or a threat to their power. Certainly we can note the definition of the term "the Holocaust" as given by scholars. However, we must not glaze over the horrors against other groups that were conducted alongside the slaughter of the Jews. Clearly they are significant enough for mention in the lede. I hope you can respond without resorting to the foul language you used at Talk:Pregnancy. Photouploaded (talk) 23:03, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

It is unbelievable how dense some editors are being. I've listed numbers of reputable sources of scholars who do not include only Jewish peoples and have more coming. Even Holocaust Museums of other countries include the Roma in the fundamental definition yet we still fight over keeping paragraph 2 as is. Some of the sources in footnote 3 are truncated in a way to mislead. User:Orangemarlin are you actually reading the sources yourself or going by what others tell you? Alatari (talk) 02:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

They are not truncated to mislead. For example, the first one says: "The Holocaust is commonly defined as the murder of more than 5,000,000 Jews by the Germans in World War II." There is no need to continue with the author's opinion about that common definition. What we need to know is whether that is the common definition, and he says it is. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 03:04, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Where is that author getting his information? If we don't trust his entire opinion then goto his sources and bypass him. Alatari (talk) 03:12, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

He's an expert. He's read the literature. He's therefore in a position to say "most scholars say this or that." We quote him because he's an expert.

Look, neither "side" can have what they want here. One side says "The Holocaust is widely regarded as being only about the murder of the Jews." That is true. But the other side says "But scholars talk about the murders of other groups too!" That is also true. Therefore, at Wikipedia, we say "Most scholars define the Holocaust as the murder of the Jews, but they also mention the murder of other groups, and here's a bit of information about those other groups."

I really can't see the difficulty here. All we are doing is reporting what is out there. We're not inventing it. We're not distorting it. We're not trying to suppress it. We're just saying: here is what the scholars say. Even if what they say is outrageous, in the opinion of some of us, here it is. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 03:19, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

His opinion isn't the only opinion in the literature. All of the teaching sites I've visited have a more expansive definition and many of the museum sites but we are insisting on saying 'typical'. The distortion is not representing the range of opinions. This source: "The 33rd Annual Scholars' Conference on the Holocaust and the Churches defines the Holocaust as "the Nazi attempt to annihilate European Jewry," cited in Hancock, Ian. "Romanies and the Holocaust: A Reevaluation and an Overview", Stone, Dan. (ed.) The Historiography of the Holocaust. Palgrave-Macmillan, New York 2004, pp. 383-396." is being used to support a Jewish only def. yet Ian Hancock's article is an argument for including the Roma.

The current text looks fine. Jewish peoples stressed in the first paragraph and the other groups stressed in the second paragraph with 'many' replacing 'typical'. The fact that the definition seems to be evolving even on long enduring websites seems to be a notable phenomena. Is the Teacher's Guide or some other politically important sites having an impact on the definition? Pressure from Gypsy groups in the mid 1980's till now have got to partly responsible. Alatari (talk) 04:13, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, I made edits to the second paragraph, which ended in this version. I made two changes: the first was to slightly expand the list of non-Jewish persecuted groups according to Holocaust victims. The second was to swap the placement of the second and third sentences. I think this order makes more sense: first, we list the other groups; second, we list their total numbers; and third, we explain that scholarly definitions of the term exclude them. This makes more sense to me than the previous version which: mentioned the groups, mentioned that scholars exclude them, and then tallied the total. Thoughts are welcome and please, be calm. Photouploaded (talk) 13:12, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

It's too verbose and no definitions I've read don't include the words "others who did not belong to the 'Aryan race'". A simpler all inclusive sentence would be: "Other Holocaust victims were persecuted and killed by the regime, including some Slavic peoples; Soviet POW's; Roma; people considered non-"Aryan race"; the handicapped; non-heterosexuals and political opponents and religious dissidents." a more concise: "Political movements by victims such as the Roma have lead to some scholars widening the definition to include other Holocaust victims. Still many scholars do not include these groups in the definition of the Holocaust, defining it as the genocide of the Jews,[6]" since the Holocaust victims and the rest of this article explain these victims in detail. Alatari (talk) 13:57, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I also feel this is too wordy, and preferred the previous version. Also, I don't think lesbians were killed. It was gay men who were targeted, as I recall. And we can't just say Poles, because we're citing them over and above the Jews who were killed in Poland. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 14:49, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Reworked it according to suggestions. Have a look. Photouploaded (talk) 18:47, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The chart in Nazi concentration camp badges seems an excellent guideline to how we organize this 2nd paragraph. Those that were marked for speedy execution listed first, those worked so hard as to only be able to survive weeks or months next then those that had the highest chance of survival last. Attributing numbers and quantities to peoples grief seems extra heartless but what criterion can we adopt to be fair and stabilize this paragraph? Alatari (talk) 18:16, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I had changed the "many" in the following sentence to "some" because "many" seems to imply "more than half." (Yes, I misused the word consensus in my description of the change) In current scholarship, it is not true that more than half of Holocaust scholars consider it to be a singlularly Jewish Holocaust.

Many scholars do not include these groups in the definition of the Holocaust, defining it as the genocide of the Jews,[5] or what the Nazis called the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question."

My thinking was that the very minor change would simply not mislead people into thinking that "Holocaust" automatically referred to Jewish genocide particularly. (For example -- if they were looking for information about the genocide of Jehovah's Witnesses, they would keep reading) In any case, I thought it was a minor little thing, so if it means that much to you, go ahead and keep it--I made the change because it didn't seem to be a big deal. Grumpy otter (talk) 10:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Jewish resistance

Jewish resistance is claimed to have a POV. I'm not seeing it but it seems to be an obstacle to getting this article to Class A. Any thoughts on a rewrite? Alatari (talk) 04:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we should try to get GA for this article. First, it's largely a meaningless designation, because standards vary enormously. Secondly, the article is unlikely ever to be stable enough, because whichever course we chart, others will arrive with strong views in the opposite direction. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 21:11, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Edit summary

Paul, I think Orangemarlin just made a mistake and didn't realize those words were part of the quotes. I almost made the same mistake myself when I first looked at it. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 07:37, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Possibly. But OM has shown no sign of actually even listening to the POV he dislikes. Paul B (talk) 07:38, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the AGF SV; I missed the quotes. But no thanks to PB. But many thanks for the personal fucking attack. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 08:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Keep it civil, or take it elsewhere. Newtman (talk) 08:34, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

It is civil. Don't threaten me. Deal with the personal attacks, not your perception of what may or may not be civil. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 08:37, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

LOL, you think that was a threat? Thanks for putting a smile on my face, needed that ;) Newtman (talk) 09:19, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

You have a long history of responding to comments on talk pages with bullying, insults and personal abuse. You have also shown that you are totally unwilling to engage in meaningful discussion on this page, since you simply ignore or attempt to suppress evidence that has been repeatedly presented here. It is difficult to assume good faith when the very quotations you were claiming to be OR have been posted and discussed on this page over and over. You should have been familiar with them. Paul B (talk) 08:52, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I forgot, you're just so perfect. Man, let me bow to your superior intelligence, knowledge, and overall greatness to the project. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 08:54, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot. Sarcasm too. Paul B (talk) 08:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

"The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστον (holókauston): holos, "completely" and kaustos, "burnt"), also known as Ha-Shoah (Hebrew: השואה), Churben (Yiddish: חורבן), is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II" is the very first sentence in this article. The second sentence is where other groups are defined in most every definition that includes others. This article reflects that trend and the sources are listed verbatim of their first paragraphs again showing the trend to give Jews in the first sentence and others in later sentences. I don't understand how anyone has lost here. If this article gets to Class A status it's message should be able to reach even further than it does now. So how about we work on raising it's status? Alatari (talk) 09:08, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

One of the big ironies of this discussion is that I first raised this issue because I was worried that the centrality of Jewish victimhood was being swamped by a tendency to add one group after another in a long list of victims. I thought that it would be better to have a section discussing the history of the use of the term and the debates about why and how groups have come to be seen as "included". There is increasing literature on this, and much of it shows a degree at least of wariness about the inclusivity. Two books I read recently were Donald Bloxham's "The Holocaust: critical historical approaches" and Sue Vice's "Representing the Holocaust", both of which are wary of the tendency for memorial events and educational institutions to constantly increase lists of victims by group-identity. Bloxam points out that only a tiny fraction of German homosexuals were sent to the camps, and Vice's book contains a good chapter on the distorting effects of excessive inclusivness (especially a tendency to include black people because of the Rhineland sterilisations). I'd rather see a separate article engaging in a detailed way with this issue (which holocaust victims may become) and drop the whole section in which victims are listed by groups, since this ineviably leads to statements like "why are group X not mentioned? This is antiXism". I think it would be better to describe the unfolding of the process as it occurred. When were decisions made to send various groups to camps - including groups who are never listed as victims such as prostitutes and street-gang members?; how they were treated in the camps?; how were groups were separated and when were decisions were made regarding them? That way it will clear that Jews were always singled out for brutalisation and murder; that experience in Auschwitz and other camps could be quite dramatically different depending on what group you belonged to, and so on. We would get a much clearer sense of the true "texture" of the events than just an "either victim or not" model. Paul B (talk) 09:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

(reset indent) We may clarify the definition, but we must make it clear that the definition is a matter of academic focus, not a complete explanation. We are talking about 3 to 5 million people, dead. And yes, the others not mentioned who were killed (such as alcoholics and prostitutes) deserve their mention too. I think that there must be some mention of the other groups in the lede. I hope your idea of a timeline actually comes to fruition. We must not just sanitize the mention of these millions from the lede and forget about it. Photouploaded (talk) 13:49, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe putting the word "Aryan" anywhere in the lede will meet strong opposition from the majority of editors. Even in the non-X form. The current form is nice. Getting every possible victim group into the second sentence will make that sentence unwieldy and this fight will never end. The word 'others' is used most frequently while 'Roma' is mentioned next most often in the above sources. Alatari (talk) 02:58, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The term Aryan is far too problematic. Firstly Slavs are Aryan, as are Poles and even Gypsies/Roma; secondly the Hungarians - close allies of the Nazis - are not (and that's not even mentioning the Japs!). The term had a meaning to the Nazis, which was derived from 19th century ethnolinguistic theories, but is far from coherent in practice. Paul B (talk) 00:05, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Victims of the Nazi regime

A possible solution to the dilemma of the other victims of Nazi persecution would be to present a brief outline of the Nazi policy toward each group and the actual losses compared to the total population. The article as it stands now does not clarify these issues

Jews
The policy of Hitler Germany was the total annihilation of all European Jews. In the territory under direct German occupation over 90% of all Jews perished in the Holocaust. A tiny percentage survived as forced laborers. Others survived in countries that refused to cooperate with German deportation requests, Romania and Bulgaria Source Raul Hilberg Destruction of the European Jews

Roma
30% of the 1,000,000 Roma perished in the war. The Germans targeted the nomadic Roma and spared the sedentary Roma. This policy cannot be compared to the German policy to annihilate all Jews. Source Columbia guide to the Holocaust

Disabled Germans
150,000 disabled Germans were murdered by the Nazis in 1940-41 before the Christian churches interceded on their behalf to end this barbarity. The Christian Churches did not intercede to stop the killing of the Jews Source Columbia Guide to the Holocaust

Gay Men
50,000 of the 1,5 million Gay German men were arrested in the Nazi era. 15,000 were sent to concentration camps where ½ -7,500 perished. That is 1 out of 200 Gay German men, compared to 9 out of 10 Jews killed. The vast majority of Gay Germans kept their sexual orientation a secret and evaded Nazi persecution Source Columbia Guide to the Holocaust

Freemasons
The actual number of Freemasons persecuted by the Nazis is unknown according to the USHMM. In any case they could have renounced their beliefs and avoided persecution. Jews were not given this option. Source USHMM website[1]

Jehovah Witnesses
About 3,000 Jehovah Witnesses perished in the camps. In any case they could have renounced their beliefs and avoided persecution. Jews were not given this option. Source Columbia Guide to the Holocaust

Political Prisoners:
The exact number of Germans who died in the camps for resistance activity is not known. A Russian source, Vadim Erlikman, using data from the Soviet era puts the number at 35,000. In any case they could have renounced their beliefs and avoided persecution. Jews were not given this option.

Poles
The Nazi policy toward occupied Poland was to exploit the country as source of slave labor and agricultural produce. The Germans planned to Germanize or annihilate all Poles.Source Gods Playground- A History of Poland by Norman Davies Vol 2 P 445.
2 million(8%) of the 24 million Poles perished in the war. 350,000 due to Soviet repression and 120,000 killed by Ukrainian partisans in 1943-44. The remaining 1.5 million deaths were due to the German occupation. At least 200-300,000 died in the camps, and 200,000 the 1944 Battle in Warsaw where the Nazis massacred tens of thousands of civilians. The remaining 1 million died in Nazi reprisals, forced labor and famine caused by the occupation. Source :Project In Posterum [2](go to note on Polish Casualties by Tadeusz Piotrowski)
Most Poles were hostile to the Jews and did little to help the population in the ghettos. The Polish resistance never made an effort to stop the trains to the death camps. The survivors of the Holocaust were greeted with intense anti-Semitism after the war. There is no comparison of German policy toward Poles and Jews. Source GUTMAN, Y. AND S.KRAKOWSKI: Unequal victims, Poles and Jews during World war II, New York, Holocaust library, 1986
Soviet Civilians
The secret German Plan Ost envisaged the eventual annihilation of the Soviet people and the colonization of the USSR with Germanic peoples. During the war about 13 million out of the 70 million civilians in the German occupied USSR perished, including 2.5 million of the 3 million Jews. Soviet sources claimed 7.4 million were killed in reprisals, 1.8 million in forced labor and 4 million due to famine and disease. Source Russian Academy of Science report 1995. The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust cites sources that estimate Soviet civilian dead due to Nazi genocide at 4.5 million 1/4 of all Soviet war dead
During the war about 1 million Soviet citizens served in the German Armed forces and 215,000 were killed in battle. Source G. I. Krivosheev. Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses. Greenhill 1997 ISBN 1-85367-280-7

Soviet POW
About 3 million of the 5.7 million Soviet POW died due to German brutality. It should also be noted at many of the 1 million Soviets in the German Armed forces , including the guards in the death camps, were recruited from the POW camps. Source Michael Clodfelter. Warfare and Armed Conflicts- A Statistical Reference to Casualty and Other Figures, 1500-2000. 2nd Ed. 2002 ISBN 0-7864-1204-6. --Woogie10w (talk) 17:29, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The above is WP:OR. Our goal here is to rely on and summarize reliable source. Crum375 (talk) 01:05, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Note well Crumb 375 this is not original research, the post is backed up with verifiable sources.--Woogie10w (talk) 01:28, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

It all has multiple conflicting sources. To present it without any, as you did here, is WP:OR. The only way to write that properly is with lots of high caliber sources, representing the entire spectrum of views. Crum375 (talk) 01:48, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion Raul Hilberg, The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust and the USHMM are "high caliber sources"--Woogie10w (talk) 11:28, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Crum375 that if we went and averaged all the numbers we found from reliable sources that would be considered WP:OR. Listing only one source is WP:POV. So we have to pick the reliable sources and list the lowest and highest number ranges (and possible list a reliable source with the closest median number at the median) for both the deaths and beginning populations. If you need help let me know. Alatari (talk) 18:25, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

A Babi Yar massicare source.

Ukraine marks 66th anniversary of Nazi massacre at Babi Yar ravine.

[[3]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.29.247.72 (talk) 20:05, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

That was an intresting page, it was well worth reading.--Yardskins (talk) 03:59, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

2nd Consensus question

My proposal is as follows-

1/ That Shoa redirects to the Holocaust, which is to become a Jewish/Yiddish orrientated page.

2/ A new page called "The Nazi genocides of World War 2" (I reckon this one renamed) would cover the issue of Nazi genocide and torture in general, with links going to the variouse sub-pages for all the specalist and indepth topics. Specialist pages already exsist for-

Action T4

Rhineland Bastards

Polish war dead

Pink triangle

Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses

Doctors' Trial

Porajmos

Extermination of Soviet prisoners of war by Nazi Germany

The Shoa/Holocaust would be linked to the 'Nazi genocide' page likewise. --The golden easter party man (talk) 22:30, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• Opposed: Too many scholars and sources include non Jewish victims for this to become a Jewish/Yiddish orientated page. Alatari (talk) 02:49, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

• Opposed: It runs against the popular/Google interpritation of 'The Holocaust' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.29.251.203 (talk) 21:29, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

• Opposed. The current situation is generally OK: "The Holocaust" is considered by many scholars to refer primarily to the Jewish genocide (as per 'Final Solution'), while others include the non-Jewish victim groups, as is heavily referenced in the article. I propose that the non-Jewish groups have their own articles, either as one combined, e.g. "Non-Jewish civilian victims of WWII", and/or specific ones for each group. Then we can have a brief description of the other articles in the Jewish version, with links to the detailed versions. This will reduce the size, and move a lot of the ethnic POV issues into the individual articles. Crum375 (talk) 23:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
• :::Opposed I am generally opposed to any change that might lead a reader to think the deniers or revisionists have a viable case and whole I support the idea that all of the victimized groups deserve their own article I am against this particular proposal.: Danny W : Albion moonlight (talk) 07:07, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• Opposed I have been following this page for almost a year (at least). At times the repetitive points and criticism are a bit discouraging and I need to remind myself that this is inevitable with the inflow and outflow of editors in this participatory process which is after all a small price to pay. However, few of us have the time to wade through archives to see if our point has been made or not, so I hope that I can be excused for repeating points that I know have been made before.

For an encyclopedia, it seems to me, that a definition is better found among the scholars than in similar compilations such as other encyclopedias or dictionaries. Since WWII, scholars tend to use the term, The Holocaust, to refer to the Nazi policy of the "Final Solution" From my reading, this is not the result of pressure from "Jewish organizations, particularly those established to commemorate the Jewish Holocaust." But rather from the desire to distinguish the Final Solution from the other Nazi genocides and massacres because of its peculiar nature: All Jews were to be annihilated because as the embodiment of evil they were a threat. In Friedländer's words: "The Jew was a lethal and active threat to all nations, to the Arian race and to the German Volk." This was different from the genocidal policies about others such as the Slavs and the Roma (Gypsies) who were inferior races to be removed from the Reich, but were not necessarily a lethal threat. Such distinctions are important in trying to understand what drove the executioners. They certainly are not meant to imply that one genocide is more important than another, nor that someone who was murdered at Auschwitz was qualitatively different than the murder of Russian POWs in Flossenbürg. I see nothing which implies that in the article. There is no doubt that there are "forgotten" genocides, but the answer is to write more on them. Thus I would agree with Crum375 that "the current system is generally OK," though I would prefer talking about "victims (or other victims) of Nazi genocides and massacres" than "non-Jewish victims".--Joel Mc (talk) 14:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• Opposed deluxe. Alatari sums up my thoughts in one simple and powerful sentence above. Joel Mc:s post above is very thoughtful, and I pretty much agree with him. Regards, --Dna-Dennis (talk) 13:34, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

No change, case closed!--The golden easter party man (talk) 20:49, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Catholic victims

Hello,

I am not a Wikipedia guru so I figured I would raise the subject here before changing anything. The Victims section lists that 3 million Catholics were killed. From my readings, I have discovered that this number is true. However, it seems to me that the context being provided for this number is misleading. Most (if not nearly all) of the Catholics that were killed by the Nazis were Polish.

Following the occupation of Poland, Polish political, religious, and intellectual leaders were killed. Nearly all Polish Jews were deported and killed. The remaining Polish Gentiles were forced into hard labor. It was as a result of this Nazi occupation (and general state of war in Poland) that nearly 3 million Poles died (i.e. were killed) at the hands of the Nazis (and Russians) in Poland. The majority of them were Catholic (about 3/4). A small portion (roughly 10%) of the Polish Gentile population were deported to camps and murdered.

In summary, it is true that roughly 3 million Catholics were killed during the war. However, the bulk of them did not die in concentration camps (as the article states), nor were they killed because of their religious affiliation, but rather due to their nationality, nor was the intention to specifically murder them, but rather to exploit them as forced labor, a reality that subsequently killed them. (Edit: after further reading it appears there were plans for a specific Polish genocide, as described in Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles.) Victims they were indeed, but much more context is necessary to understand why and how they were killed. I would recommend clarifying the piece to focus on the fact that the 3 million victims were Poles who were predominantly Catholic, and who were targeted mainly due to their nationality. The information about the Catholic clergy can be put into its own subheading.

The sources I have come across online to support this context are here: http://www.ushmm.org/education/resource/poles/poles.php?menu=/export/home/www/doc_root/education/foreducators/include/menu.txt&bgcolor=CD9544 http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/Lucaire.htm

I thought I'd initiate some discussion before changing anything. -Jon 69.239.113.237 10:11, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles is linked in the second paragraph. That might be a good place to start. Photouploaded 12:22, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing that page out. I looked it over and it seems quite comprehensive. I suppose my concern now is the intimation in the main page that the Catholic victims were singled out because of their religious affiliation, rather than their nationality (excepting the clergy). Any thoughts? -Jon 69.239.113.237 21:01, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you, Jon. The Catholic qualifier is indeed strange and puzzling. I think it's all a matter of fringe "historians" who want to put a new "original" touch on a big historical subject. The main dimension here is the Polish nationality, not their religion. With statistics, we can do all kind of funny assertions... what about this (my own, just for this occasion): The Nazi regime murdered between 2 and 3 million women in the Holocaust - headlined by Hitler's secret hate towards women. Let's spice it up: 10% left-handed = 0.1*(2-3 million) = 200,000 - 300,000. Aha, Hitler had killed about a quarter of a million left-handed women. Sorry, got carried away there...:) Please Jon, be bold. Regards, --Dna-Dennis (talk) 13:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Denis. The post claming that Catholics were Holocaust victims is not historically correct. The website of the USHMM and the Columbia Guide to the Holocaust do not list Catholics as victims of the Nazi regime. The post claiming Catholics as Holocaust victims is a blatant POV push backed up with an obscure Catholic religious tract. We should delete this section. Individual Catholics opposed the Nazi regime but the Catholic church did not oppose the Nazi regime. In fact many Catholics were ardent Nazis who were Hitler’s willing executioners.--Woogie10w (talk) 14:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, I feel bold today punks, so I will scrap the Catholic issue completely. For documentation, this is the text I will remove (if anyone else needs to review it/suggest partial readdition or whatever):

At least three million Catholics were systematically killed in concentration camps. As for clergy, in the Priester-Block in Dachau there were 2,600 Catholic priests imprisoned, of whom 2,000 were put to death. Over a quarter of the 10,000 total priests in Poland were executed, as were 500 nuns.

As stated above, the dimension is the Polish nationality and not religion. If anything, the Poles deserves a "Polish" section rather than a "Catholic". As for clergy, priest and nuns... well they could be mentioned, but why them in particular? We don't mention other occupations; how many shopkeepers, musicians or industry workers that were killed. If my removal makes me an anti-catholic HC denier, so be it, sue me. I don't think it merits a place in this article. Anyone opposed? Regards, --Dna-Dennis (talk) 01:57, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I oppose. Although the Polish do deserve their own section, just as the others...gays, etc. but it's important to keep the Catholic victims too. As religion was an issue, among other things, of course. Catholics, Jews, gays and blacks are still victims today of the neo-Nazis because of this history. Not just because someone is Polish. Clergy, priest and nuns is not an "occupation" in a sense, as there were many shopkeepers, musicians, etc. that were also Catholic, Polish, German and/or Jews. German Catholics, just like Jews were targeted, not their profession (ie, jobs) - Jeeny ^(talk) 02:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Holy lord, I got reverted quicker than lightning there:). An act of God? No seriously, you make some sense, Jeeny, but there are quite some troubles with the Catholic issue. First of all, an additional dimension of religion is like mixing apples and peaches into a strange pie which I have trouble digesting: I we list subdimensions of the victims, casual readers may get the impression (for instance) that 3 million Poles AND 3 million Catholics were killed, summing it up to 6 million, and thus adding 3 million to the total Holocaust count. This is problematic. Furthermore, it's alleged (and I agree) that the Catholic dimension is historically incorrect. Do you have any references (besides those currently present, which I actually seriously doubt as serious - the title "Catholic Martyrs of the Twentieth Century" is a little bit smelly to my encyclopedic nose) which can verify the Catholic dimension firmly? Is there any article at all in Wikipedia? Personally, I've read a lot of books on Nazi Germany, and I don't remember anything at all which indicates that the Catholics were especially singled out (no more than intellectuals, politicals etc). Regards, --Dna-Dennis (talk) 02:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

lol Sorry, perhaps I was a bit too quick to revert. I admit I haven't read the article in a few weeks, and should not have blindly reverted. "Holy lord", made me laugh, and brought me back to my senses. I know this is serious though. Ah, I'm so used to those who delete content on personal principles and/or opinion and I inappropriately reacted, and assumed bad faith. Holy lord, forgive me. :) Sorry, I was wrong in principle AND opinion. :/ - Jeeny ^(talk) 03:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

No probs at all, thou have been absolved:) For others who might object, the USHMM link that Woogie10w provided below contains a quite heavy debunking; the start of the section "3. How many Catholics were killed during the Holocaust?" states: Although the Catholic Church was persecuted in the Third Reich, Catholics as a group were not officially targeted by the Nazis merely for practicing the Catholic faith. That statement weighs IMO quite a lot. --Dna-Dennis (talk) 04:02, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. :) Good link there. - Jeeny ^(talk) 04:10, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

This is a link to the USHMM website that will help to clarify the issue of How many Catholics were killed during the Holocaust?[4]-Woogie10w (talk) 02:54, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

This quote is fom the USHMM- "SS authorities in the concentration camps did not generally record the religious affiliation of a prisoner, with the exception of the Jehovah's Witnesses. As a result it is difficult, perhaps impossible, to reliably estimate the total number of Catholic victims who were persecuted or killed because of some action or position connected to their Catholic faith." The number you have there of 3 million is soft as s-t and needs to be deleted.--Woogie10w (talk) 03:01, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe the solution to this conflict would be a section on the Catholic clergy that opposed the Nazis and another section on Polish & Soviet civilians who were targeted as a "race" by the Nazi regime. The USHMM will back us up as a verifiable source. The article as it is now is not historicaly correct because Catholics were not targeted as a group like the Jews.--Woogie10w (talk) 03:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi Dennis, Woogie, and Jeeny: Nice discussion here. Dennis, it looks like you beat me to the punch on being bold! Anyway, that find from the USHMM is a good find and basically settles the matter of Catholic victims (as a Nazi policy). You also raise a good point about the double-counting. Victims should only be counted once (i.e. victim headings should be mutually exclusive), organized by the reason for their targeting (although their peripheral affiliations can certainly be noted for further relevance). E.g. Polish Catholics in the Polish section, Polish Jews in the Jewish Section, etc. Dennis, you asked about the mentioning of Catholic victims (clergy or otherwise) in other wikipedia articles. I did find the following in the Holocaust victims page under the section of 'Religious Dissidents': Additionally, some members of the Catholic clergy were killed by the Nazis, many of whom were either of Jewish background (as in the case of Edith Stein) or were killed as part of the Nazis campaign against the Polish intelligentsia. In the countries in which Roman Catholic bishops, and even Roman Catholics themselves had openly protested and attacked Nazi policies, like in the Netherlands and Poland where bishops and priests had protested to the deportations of Jews, the clergy was either threatened with deportation themselves and kept in custody (case of German bishop Clemens von Galen), or directly deported to concentration camps (as in the cases of the Dutch Carmelite priest Titus Brandsma and Polish Fr. Maximilian Kolbe, who was later canonized).This is consistent with my other readings that the RCC in Poland was targeted (perhaps more so than in other countries) as a specific campaign against Polish leadership/intelligentsia (as part of the general strategy of a Polish takeover). Furthermore, it provides detail on why Catholic clergy (in general) may have been targeted. I didn't see a citation, however. Anyway, in summary, I think the removal of the Catholic victims section was justified, although it can still certainly be mentioned in a section on Poles. Furthermore, maybe now we have justification for adding a section on religious dissidents in general (as organized in the Holocaust victims page: JW, RCC, etc.) or just listing them and linking to that page. Thoughts? Thanks for the discussion. -Jon 69.239.113.237 (talk) 07:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Doh! I just tried adding a section on Poles. I won't be able to edit the page "for a while" after creating a wikipedia account due to its semi-protected status. Any takers? :P Basically lifted straight from the Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles page: Some three million non-Jewish Polish citizens perished during the course of the war, over two million of whom were ethnic Poles (the remainder being mainly ethnic minorities of Ukrainians and Belarusians). The vast majority of those killed were civilian, Catholic, and mostly massacred during special-action operations of Nazi Germany. with a citation to here -Jon 69.239.113.237 (talk) 08:00, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Jon. I agree with you approx. 100%: I was actually about to rewrite the "Catholic" section into a "Polish", probably in a very similar way as you were about, including mentioning the clergy. But I had a lack of inspiration, and just simply removed the IMO inferior Catholic issue. I might have a go at it, if you don't beat me to it. I'd also just like to clarify my "Catholic" position somewhat further (since I might have been applying the KISS principle a little too hard); yes, I know of the persecution of the clergy, and my main problem was in reality the blunt 3 million "Catholic" victims. The probs with mentioning the clergy (which I anyway is all for) is that I think we have to write a section which is more inclusive, in order to not give Catholics undue weight. That is, mentioning the intelligentsia, politicals etc. in a similar way as the section in the article Nazi_crimes_against_ethnic_Poles#Crimes_against_intelligentsia_and_Catholic_clergy does. I'm not sure if you are about or have created a user account, Jon, but it's ridiculously easy - but it's naturally all up to you if you want one or not. If you have any questions or need any help, I can be of assistance; don't hesitate to contact me here on my talk page. --Dna-Dennis (talk) 16:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Soviet civilians as well as Poles were persecuted and killed by the Nazis. This link to an article by the USHMM should be considered by the editors. THE GERMAN ARMY AND THE RACIAL NATURE OF THE WAR AGAINST THE SOVIET UNION [5]

Some members of the Protestant clergy in Germany were also persecuted for opposing the Nazis. This should be considered also in the section on clerical resistance. --Woogie10w (talk) 17:23, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Unhistoric map

The article uses a map which shows the concentrations camps within the borders of today (except Jugoslavia). This is unhistoric and should be replaced quickly by a map which shows the historical facts (borders from 37, annections before the war (Austria etc.), occupied countries during the war, Vichy etc.) 82.47.217.69 —Preceding comment was added at 20:04, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

This is somewhat a matter of taste; to choose a suitable year is not clear-cut. For more info, I (and others) have responded to this here: Commons:Deletion_requests/Image:WW2-Holocaust-Europe.png. Regards, --Dna-Dennis (talk) 12:48, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

this is not a matter of taste, but of historic accuracy.82.47.217.69 (talk) 10:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The new map is far better than the old. Still, it would be a major improvement if it used the 1938 or 1942 borders, either instead of, or through superimposition. The coloring is better, the arrows are better, the choice of data is better. Jd2718 (talk) 19:47, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your post, Jd2718! (I made the map). Since you think historical borders would be better (and you are apparently not the only one), I have decided to try to make another version of it (but keep the old one). But it will take some time, and I have a little trouble deciding how to approach it, that is, which year(s) to use. The probs with '38 is that the Holocaust hadn't started in earnest at that time (and, for instance, Poland, France etc. had not been occupied/split). And there are problems with post '38 borders too, since the borders flow quite a bit between '39 and '45. It's actually a little b*tching headache... But I will have a go at it. If anyone has any suggestions, please contact me on my talk page, I'd be very thankful. Regards, --Dna-Dennis (talk) 21:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Sensationalist, should be altered

I seriously doubt that there's a reference for this commentary:

'Every arm of Germany's bureaucracy was involved in the logistics of the mass murder, turning the country into what one Holocaust scholar has called "a genocidal nation."'

No doubt that Michael Berenbaum called Germany "a genocidal nation", but if he said "Every arm of Germany's bureaucracy was involved in the logistics of the mass murder" then he shouldn't be considered a valid source for wikipedia. That's sensationalism and has no place in a work of fact. It's shameful that such an important topic should be treated so disrespectfully. It doesn't do justice to the millions of innocents who died.

Again, further down in the article:

'Every arm of the country's sophisticated bureaucracy was involved in the killing process.'

More hyperbole and/or supposition.

The only way to represent the truth is with cold hard facts that everyone must accept. Coloring any part of the facts only leads to argument and denial. This isn't the place for emotional rhetoric.

Regards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.44.247.129 (talk) 12:00, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you; I remember getting a "sour" feeling when reading those lines some time ago, but I did not do anything about it. But thanks to your post, now I will! Those statements are certainly extreme generalizations which I think should be rewritten (or maybe simply removed). It's actually amazing that the reference is from someone associated with USHMM! "A genocidal nation" is sure a strong wording, and that is - to be frank - pure bs. This statement, along with the term "nation" implies that every German participated in the genocide, which we all know is not true (just like every German was not a Nazi, and every Nazi was not a German). There is some truth underneath the wording "Every arm of Germany's bureaucracy" but it is ridiculous to assume it was every; if anyone feels like trying to convince me that for instance bureaucrats that handled school policies, Nazi weddings or whatever, were involved in the logistics of mass murder, good luck doing that. I will give it some thought now, and rewrite that stuff, and hopefully keeping something which is more truthful. --Dna-Dennis (talk) 23:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, if you restrict "involved in the Holocaust" to working the "logistics of mass murder", you might have a point there. But indeed, the bureaucrats who handled school policies were part of the genocidal machinery, given that school policy was indoctrination into the Nazi policies. Someone who was in primary school in 1933 would have been of the age to be herding Jews into boxcars ten years later. "Genocidal nation" is accurate; yes, there were individuals who could not be called genocidal, but that doesn't mean the nation wasn't, any more than it would be incorrect to call 19th-century Britain imperialist because some Britons might have been opposed to imperialism. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 00:00, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The Nazi's certainly mobilized almost all the institutions of the state in pursuit of their goals, including the extermination of the Jews. But I agree that the phrasing in the article was sensationalist. I should disclose that I have had problems with this particular source before. By over-relying on a single source (and not a historian), I am afraid that in places we have allowed that source's voice to color this article. Jd2718 (talk) 00:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I rewrote the first one to Germany had a considerable bureaucracy dealing with the logistics of persecution, deportation, and later, mass murder, and the policies were accomplished in stages..., and the second one to A considerable part of the country's sophisticated bureaucracy was involved in the enforcement of the policies against those who were consided as inferior.. I decided to nuke the notion of genocidal nation altogether, since I believe it is sensationalist, and quite a "sour" overstatement. Anyone opposed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dna-webmaster (talk • contribs) 23:56, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Edit conflict here! I added my comment before reading Dna-webmaster's. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 00:03, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

You made strong point there, Jpgordon, when you compared with British imperialism - that made me think. But no, I still can't buy the term genocidal nation - "genocidal" is far more accusing than "imperialistic". Here, with "genocide", we mean the planned mass murder, and thus a genocidal nation implies that the German people was planning and committing genocide. This is not true; we know that the Nazis tried to keep as much as possible of their foul doings hidden from the German people, and we know that many of the Germans did not know what the Einsatzgruppen did in the East, or what happened in the extermination camps. Thus, I think it would be too harsh to call Germany a genocidal nation. I could maybe digest the term persecuting nation but not "genocidal". IMO, there is only a thin line between that statement and calling the Germans a genocidal people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dna-webmaster (talk • contribs) 00:42, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

There are many people including some of my relatives who lost their homes and property and died in camps because they refused to turn over their sons to the Hitler youth and actively spoke out against the administrations policies. Alatari (talk) 00:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this issue needs to be discussed however this is not the time to change the article. The existing wording has been there for many months, changing it within the space of 6 or so hours debate is not justified. Sisalto (talk) 02:43, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to discuss, so support, to oppose, to suggest changes. But 1) I see no debate here. And 2) anyone can edit here. It would be best not to suggest that there are constraints on when. Jd2718 (talk) 02:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Like Dna-Dennis I've never been happy with this sentence, and I don't think there is any useful analogy with British imperialism. Everyone in Britain knew they were part of a nation that was the head of an empire, whether they approved or not. It is false to imply that every German knew they were part of a genocidal system. A guy in a factory making containors for Zyklon-B is very unlikely to have known what they would be used for. Also, the fact that everyone's work propped up the government in one way or another is no more meaningful than the fact that the work and taxes of Americans helps support Guantanamo bay. It would still be absurd to say that this makes America a "prison camp nation". Paul B (talk) 03:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe we are all in agreement that the statement "genocidal nation" is a provocative one, therefore changing it is not a minor edit; given the sensitive nature of this article it is best that more debate is stimulated before changes are made. Sisalto (talk) 03:35, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, the language we are discussing was added without discussion, amidst a rapid sea of changes. An editor and a helper boldly rewrote the whole thing. (and the overall effect was quite positive). Over a far longer period of time some of us will notice things about the newer version that are 'off' and may change and discuss them. That's normal. Since you are here, why not try discussing the edit themselves, rather than just the process? Jd2718 (talk) 03:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

It is not my place to discuss whether or not Germany was a "genocidal nation" during WWII, however I think we agree that thought and care went into the original article and so changing major provocative elements of it should at least involve the original editor's input. Sisalto (talk) 04:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)