Talk:Epic poetry

Prose?

I see prose items being added here. Should we be renaming the article or creating another?

I dumped a lot of the prose items (or items I could tell were prose) down at the bottom of the page, under the heading "Prose Epic" (this is a recurring problem afflicting all of the "epic" pages, but is obviously most serious in a page called Epic poetry). Probably this should ultimately be made into a new page by itself: "Prose Epic", or "Epic Prose", or something like that. The obvious problem is that it can easily get weighed down with anything that somebody wants to call "epic"; basically, every hefty summer novel wants to be known as an "epic" work. See the question about The Silmarillion above -- though I admit it has a somewhat better claim than other things on the prose list. Moby Dick is a great, wonderful novel; but it is not an "epic". 68.100.18.183 04:14, 22 January 2006 (UTC)RandomCritic

I like how you moved the prose epics to a new section. That's a great idea. However, I have to disagree re: Moby-Dick. Scholars often classify that novel as epic; for instance, see Sounding the Whale: Moby-Dick as Epic Novel, by Christopher Sten. Or search Google for "moby dick epic". You'll see a lot of hits. Rsgranne 31 January 2006

Well, it may be an "epic novel", but I don't think it's "an epic". Anyway, as long as there's a section on "prose epic" there's no particular need to arbitrate the question. I see that "The Lord of the Rings" has been proposed as a "prose epic" in the opening paragraph so I'm moving that down there as well. I just hope we don't end up with "The Bridges of Madison County" there as well. RandomCritic 08:39, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Epos

Epos redirects here, but there is no explanation on what this term means or its origins. Obviously it's a synonym, but it's probably worth mentioning. —Michiel Sikma, 18:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

WorldChronicle.net

Is this an appropriate external link? -proteus71 18:22, 05 Sept 2006 (UTC)

Manas Epic from Kyrgyzstan

Someone HAS TO put in this topic something about the MANAS epic from Kyrgyzstan. Anthropologists and linguists credit this poem as being the longest known poem in human history. It was not transcribed until the mid 1900s (not sure exactly when but it was an extensive project). Unlike all these other epics the Manas epic has shaped the identity of an entire ethnic group so it is rather important (in addition to being much longer than any other epic). The people who passed this story down orally had to go through decades of apprenticeship before they were allowed to tell the story and a recitation can take more than a week.

Be bold and have that someone be you. You have seen Manas (epic) I'm sure John (Jwy) 01:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC).

Goethe's Faust

Isn't Faust an epic? I thought it was. Where is it in the page?

The last edition that removed Goethe's Faust putted that it is a "dramatic poem", and not an "epic poem". --Leonardo T. de Oliveira 16:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

And that was correct. --Wetman 07:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Fenian Cycle

What about the Fenian Cycle from Irish mythology? --Leonardo T. de Oliveira 16:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

De Rerum Natura

And "On the Nature of Things", written by Lucretius in the first century BC? --Leonardo T. de Oliveira 16:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Not an epic. The following misleading text was entered, I suppose, simply to reassure the bunny-rabbits: "As a result of this change in the use of the word, many prose works of the past may be called "epics" which were not composed or originally understood as such." Epic does not just mean "big" ("...went off with an epic bang") and it does not include Xena Warrior Princess. The result of this kindergarten reassurance exhausts all meaning from the word and feeds library-deprived crackerbarrel literary chatter.--Wetman 07:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Many classicists understand De Rerum Natura as an epic poem, of the specific sort known as didactic epic. Other examples would be Hesiod's Works and Days. Not every classicist would agree, of course; the definition of "epic" isn't straightforward. Still, I'd say that De Rerum Natura ought to be on the list. (for a reference, see this review of Monica Gale's Lucretius and the Didactic Epic. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Ovid's Metamorphoses

Ovid's Metamorphoses is an epic. I quote the Oxford Classical Dictionary entry on Ovid: "An unorthodox epic in fifteen books, Ovid's only surviving work in hexameters, composed in the years immediately preceeding his exile in AD 8." The Metamorphoses bends the genre of epic, to be sure, but it is still considered an epic by almost any classicist. In fact, many classicists consider any long work in hexameters to be an epic, since definitions based on the content of the poems can't cover the full range of ancient epic from the Iliad to the poem of Parmenides to Aratus' Phaenomena to Works and Days. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

This special pleading needs to be incorporated into the article rather than adding the Metamorphoses to an empty list, which will confuse the Simple. --Wetman 17:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The Silmarillion

The Silmarillion is not poetry; however, Tolkien did write an epic poem (though it was unfinished) called The Lay of Leithian. It was written over the course of five years, and contains several thousand lines. But should it be mentioned here, because it was unfinished? --Narfil Palùrfalas 22:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Added The Ballad of the White Horse

Added The Ballad of the White Horse by G K Chesterton APAULCH 21:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Rearranged a lot of stuff

Rearranged a lot of stuff, separated out prose epics (and others) without deleting entries, divided main poetic epic section into ancient/medieval/modern while retaining century divisions, and added in a good many titles. 68.100.18.183 04:26, 22 January 2006 (UTC)RandomCritic

Epic vs. Lyric

Some of the material on here is undeniably poetry (and long poetry at that); but is it all epic poetry? It would be worthwhile examining some of the less-well-known poems here (where they're accessible) to see if they fit the definition. While any two adjacent categories always have some dubious in-between items, most epic poetry is pretty clearly definable: does it narrate a series of interesting events? That's epic poetry, even if in addition to the story told there is an allegorical, philosophical, or political point. Or is the poem primarily an expression of the poet's thought, whether emotional, philosophical, or critical, to which the narrative -- if any -- is totally subordinate? That's lyric poetry. Wordsworth's Prelude, while it does pass through a series of biographical events, seems to me not to be about those events, but rather uses them as a framework to expound his thoughts on this and that. And while I'd be hesitant to confine epic solely to poems that treat of battles, marvellous journeys, and deeds of errantry, I'm also rather of the opinon that Wordsworth's own life was not up to the level of epic interest. :) 68.100.18.183 04:26, 22 January 2006 (UTC)RandomCritic

If you call Hinduism "mythology," then call Christianity and Judaism "mythology" too.

The built-in arrogance of the West never ceases to amaze. The entire Old Testament, not just the Book of Job, is epic poetry -- especially Genesis. Let's get honest people. What you call religious texts are not exempt. They contain all the same qualities that denote epic poems. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.219.61.243 (talk • contribs) 04:55, April 19, 2007 (UTC)

If you have a solution to offer, offer it. Venting or ranting about how the world does you and yours wrong can be done from a blog. Proteus71 17:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

You are clearly not well acquainted with the Old Testament. What of the Law books such as Leviticus If one can describe such edicts as 'When the plague of leprosy is in a man, then he shall be brought unto the priest' and 'Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary' as poetry one clearly has no literary scruples. The psalms also, though unquestionably verse, are hymns not epics. But why is this user being attacked? The arrogance of western religion on such matters is and indisputable and indefensible fact. And he has posited a fair, if utterly erroneous, solution: to shunt the entire Old Testament under the 'epic' banner, without a thought for the heroic and elevated themes of the Gospels or Revelations.

Milton's Paradise Lost

It is my personal opinion that John Milton's epic poem Paradise Lost should be added to the list at the top of the page of significant Western epic poems. It is one of the best known and best written examples of English blank verse and epic poetry in the West. Is anyone of the same opinion? Could we reach a consensus? --Alrocks334 02:03, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Conventions In Epics

This section includes this as a convention of Epics:

Writer invokes a Muse, one of the nine daughters of Zeus. The poet prays to the Muses to 
provide him with divine inspiration to tell the story of a great hero. 

This would only apply to epics from cultures influenced by Classical mythology. It seems overbroad to include it among conventions of all epic poetry. I'm going to add a tag to this one.

*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 17:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Why not just add its a convention of classical western epics? I'm no expert, but I think its reasonably important as a convention that is often worked with or against in later literature. (John User:Jwy talk) 04:16, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'll give it a tweak; feel free to modify as you see fit (of course).

*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 14:21, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Irish Epics

The Ulster and Fenian Cycles should be added. (Tain Bo Cualgne, etc.)

The Canterbury Tales

Surely, this is not to be considered an epic? It is a collection of firesode yarns spun, for the most part, in couplets of iambic pentameter. It has been shovelled unceremoniously into the 'epic' basket on account of its length amd prominent position in the history of english literature. Please, lets be more careful about how we use the word. The 'Tales' are a worthier candidate then many for the term.

Eliot

Why are 'The Waste Land'and 'Four Quartets' grouped under 'Other' epics when clearly wrtten in verse? Simply because they do not fit in with the prevalent traditions epic poetry does not mean that they should be separated from the group all together. They are poetry, and should be listed as such or not as epic at all.

Prose, Epos and Epic vs. Lyric

My comment bears on the 'prose', 'epos' and 'epic vs lyric' sections in the talk page above, and relates to the first two sentences of the article:

"The epic is a broadly defined genre of narrative poetry, characterized by great length, multiple settings, large numbers of characters, or long span of time involved. As a result of this change in the use of the word, many prose works of the past may be retroactively called "epics" which were not composed or originally understood as such."

I agree with the definition in the first sentence, that seems pretty uncontentious. When the second sentence claims a "change in use of the word", though, I get confused. Change? Surely it is the use of 'epic' as a cinematic genre that involves the change in definition. The first sentence pretty much describes how Aristotle defines the epos in his Poetics, no? There is a trinity of terms in classical poetics: the lyric, the epos and the drama. The poet turns his back on the audience and addresses his muse, the poet sings directly to the audience about matters of civic concern, the poet speaks indirectly through the mask of characters. In a very schematic way, which I know some aestheticians contest (Szondi objects to the easy schematization, I seem to remember), this gives us : lyrical - the poem - mood and emotion / dramatic - the drama - interpersonal mimesis / epic - the novel - diegetic narrative. There is no inherent association in Aristotle between the epic and verse, I seem to remember. DionysosProteus 04:15, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

See Also need cleaning up

The See Also section of the aritcle has a lot of links that should be elsewhere in the article, such as specific national epics.(Lucas(CA) 16:57, 9 September 2007 (UTC))

Ronald Johnson and Herman Melville

Johnson's Ark and Melville's Clarel should be added to the list of epics at the end; they are two of the three "completed" American epic poems (Zukofsky's A is the other).

71.199.8.10 07:39, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Leaves of Grass

Walt Whitman's Leaves of Grass is not an epic. It is a collection of poems. It should be removed from this list. 24.7.158.72 (talk) 02:26, 29 January 2008 (UTC)