Talk:Battle of the Bulge

The Battle of the Bulge and the Battle of Ardennes are the same, right? So we should put them together (don't know where) jheijmans

I've just been busy putting them under Battle of Ardennes (1944). Ardennes seems to be the more formal name for the Battle. Eclecticology, Tuesday, June 18, 2002

I noticed, but why add (1944)? Were there any other "Battles of the Ardennes?". jheijmans

There was another one in World War I at the time of the earliest German offensives. Eclecticology

Ehm, now there's no article at neither Bulge nor Ardennes (1944), since they're both redirecting to each other... Jheijmans 05:43 Jul 22, 2002 (PDT)

In military history books this is usually referred to as The Ardennes Offensive Battle of the Ardennes is a First World War battle.

Talk moved from Talk:Battle of Ardennes (1944)

Isn't this more commonly known as the Battle of THE Ardennes? -- Zoe

This is in the wrong place. It's not normally known as The Battle of the Ardennes, but as The Ardennes Offensive. The Battle of the Ardennes is a WW1 battle.

What's wrong with Battle of the Bulge? Until just now that is the only name I knew it by. And for Americans at least, this is the most known and popular title. Our naming conventions state that we should title articles based on common usage unless that causes an ambiguity. --mav

The only reason you know it as that is because of the movie. Battle of the Bulge was the US Army's slang for it. The normal name is The Ardennes Offensive. Mintguy 21:41 Dec 11, 2002 (UTC)

"Normal" by whose definition? It's the man on the street's name for it. If you ask somebody what the Battle of the Bulge was, they're going to be more likely to know it than the Ardennes Offensive. -- Zoe

Exactly. Proper military usage here does not subvert common usage for page titles. --mav

I don't think it's right to support ignorance by automatically going along with what the man in the street might say. Ask authorities on the subject instead. In my experience most reputable military histories list it under The Ardennes Offensive or possibly The Ardennes Offensive (Battle of the Bulge). It's perhaps not relevant and not worth arguing over but if you look at the list of Battles virtually all have battle of someplace' or they have a different name like Operation Barbarossa. Battle of the Bulge is inconsistent with this. Mintguy 21:58 Dec 11, 2002 (UTC)

The choice of a title that most people know and would expect does not support ignorance - it assists them in finding the article in the first place and doesn't preach to them that what they call something is ignorant. Stating just what the military calls something is information that should be in the article. In fact, I don't see anything wrong with using the military title throughout the whole article. But since this title is not nearly as widely known by most people, we must first introduce this term to the readers. Think of the surprise factor; Most people will be looking for Battle of the Bulge. They click on the link and are brought to something they didn't expect the Battle of Ardennes (1944). Many readers will instantly think they made a mistake and back out. There is also Google rankings and other external search engines to think about. If the most commonly searched for title, Battle of the Bulge, is not the H1 title then those external search engines will rank our article on the subject lower. There is also the fact that the mere existence of this article where it is will encourage others to make articles at militarily-correct titles. And I know from experience that many of these will not have redirects to them that will catch spontaneous links to the most widely known title. There is also a POV issue here where a minority usage is subverting a majority one. A similar content analogy would be if a contributor made the God article biased toward critical scientific views. We have well-established naming conventions on these matters. --mav

I disagree. Particularly as half the hits on google for "battle of the bulge" will send you to sites offering you diet advice. Whatever way you look at it though Battle of Ardennes (1944) is incorrect, put Battle of Ardennes in google and Wikipedia comes top and most other sites refer to the WWI battle. So I suggest moving this to Battle of the Bulge, redirecting The Ardennes Offensive to Battle of the Bulge and deleting this page. Mintguy 22:32 Dec 11, 2002 (UTC)

Oh ... and then The Ardennes Offensive should be used throughout the article. Mintguy

There is no real need to delete this page even if it only becomes an orphaned redirect. External search engines already have it indexed at this title and there probably are many bookmarked links to this page too. But I agree that a move to Battle of the Bulge and the use of the correct military term for this battle throughout the article is in order. This is the same thing I do for widely-known pseudonyms such as Billy the Kid - the article is at the title people expect but the text uses the guy's real name in most of the article. --mav

Google searches:

"Battle of Ardennes" -- 180 hits
"Ardennes Offensive" -- 6,300 hits
"Battle of the Bulge" -- 70,200 hits.

Call it what people expect, THEN educate them. I'm with mav on this. -- Zoe

"Battle of the Bulge" + diet -- 5,170. Mintguy 22:32 Dec 11, 2002 (UTC)

"Battle of the Bulge" -diet = 66,400 -- Zoe

I got 66,000 for this

"battle of the bulge" -diet +calories = 419. LOL ;-) Mintguy 22:40 Dec 11, 2002 (UTC)

Ohh... one more for the sake of it. Any decent webpage about the Battle of the Bulge must mention the Germans at least once surely.

"battle of the bulge" +german = 19,900. Mintguy 23:05 Dec 11, 2002 (UTC)

In both World War I and World War II the Allies fondly believed "no one will ever attack through the Ardennes" because of hills, forests, snows, few roads, etc. Whereupon, the Germans attacked twice achieving only partial success both times because it really is a poor place to attack through. Therefore, for reasons of better understanding of European geography and its impact on military action, I say the name Ardennes is best applied to both battles. The Bulge was the result of an attack on weak troops assigned to do nothing but sit in foxholes and wait for the end of the war. It never went from Bulge to rupture because the weak troops fought back and were supplemented by strong troops. Ortolan88

The article says that the general's reply 'NUTS!' was not understood by Germans and non-American allies alike. So would somebody please, for the sake of this 'non-American ally', explain in the article what this reply meant? branko

"NUTS" is American slang for "crazy" or mentally ill. "You're going to do WHAT?!?!? That's NUTS." An insane asylum was known as the "nuthouse." It is also simultaneously a slang word for the human testicles or "the balls," implying manhood or a lack thereof. ("That guy's got nuts the size of grapefruit.") There are therefore several possible implications:

1) The Germans were insane to ask for the Americans to surrender. 2) The Americans knew they were insane to NOT surrender, but refused anyway. 3) The Americans had the courage ("the balls") to not surrender. 4) If the Germans wanted to attack, they lacked "the balls" to do so.

A multiplicity of meanings communicated with a single word, some of them arguably obscene.

clarka

According to Laws of war, some German soldiers wore American uniforms, therefore not having right to legal protection, so they were killed even after they surrendered. Could somebody explain it here? -- Error 01:58 Apr 17, 2003 (UTC)

I am attempting to research this, but haven't found any obvious references to a specific incident yet. I was able to determine that a specific S.S. unit was tasked with capturing a pair of key bridges behind Allied lines. They actualy did operate behind American lines in jeeps wearing American uniforms, sowing confusion. This unit may have been involved in the Malmedy massacre. Near the end of the battle they were used in a spoiling attack and mostly wiped out.

I think I remember an incident from the movie titled "Battle of the Bulge" which may or may not have been historically accurate. In the movie, an S.S. unit seized a checkpoint behind Allied lines and massacred Americans passing through, dumping their bodies behind the checkpoint. The ruse was discovered and some of the S.S. attempted to surrender but were shot. Could someone who has seen the movie more recently do better? Better yet, can anyone trace down actual historical examples of Allied forces in World War II engaging in reprisal? clarka

The German troops disguised as americans were led by Otto Skorzeny (who also commanded the unit that rescued Mussolini) see http://www.donhollway.com/writing/skorzeny/skorzeny.html Mintguy 21:57, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The unit was the 150th Panzer Brigade, equiped with captured US vehicles and men in US uniforms. The Europa (wargame series) order of battle further identifies it as "Rubenhugel" (missing umlaut?), and classifies it as an OKW unit (Wehrmacht high command, not SS.) B.Bryant 03:41, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)

A couple of problems with the page:

The text mentions two competing plans, says "one called for...", but never explicity completes the contrast. (Presumably the first was the idea of pinching out Hodges and the second was the plan actually implemented? If so, it needs to be made specific.)
Could someone please clarify the relation between Wacht am Rhine and Herbstnebel? (Here and in the list of military operations page too, please.)

B.Bryant 16:09, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

This article needs help... I would work on it, but I have mucho English and AP Biology homework to do... no offense to the writers, I'm just saying. I'll work on it tomorrow, most likely. ugen64 02:41, Dec 16, 2003 (UTC)

Branko, why did you add "completely incomprehensible"? The reply was totally understandable to the Americans and British; Germans and French probably had more trouble with it. Should we add an explanation of what it meant? DJ Clayworth 14:44, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Also, what was the "one-syllable" reply that was unprintable? (I can think of several that are more than one syllable :)) Adam Bishop 01:42, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I too can think of many one-word replies carrying the same meaning as 'nuts' but more forcefully. I can well believe that the written reply was just toned down a little. DJ Clayworth 05:31, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I'm taking some lines about intelligence out for the following reasons. 1) "The lack of radio traffic should have alerted Allied intelligence that something was up". No, the usual interpretation of there being no increase in radio traffic is that nothing is up. Otherwise why bother to use motorcycle couriers? 2) "Enigma was decoding German radio traffic". No, Enigma was encoding German radio traffic. Ultra was decoding it. 3) Use of motorcycle couriers. Added by the same person who added the above two, so I'd like to see a reference before it goes back. We need to be sure that what we write here is correct. DJ Clayworth 16:03, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I'm rewriting this article, progress at User:Ugen64/Battle of the Bulge. Problem is, the only good source for anything after the first 2-3 days is the Army document... which is somewhat more complicated to read. Check my progress, make any edits you feel necessary, if you even care. When it's complete, I'll probably do a vote to switch it over, but for now, all I've got is the Prologue, Plan, and first 2-3 days. ugen64 14:43, Dec 20, 2003 (UTC)