Talk:Hajji

Added to articles needing attention

Becase of ongoing discussion I have added this page to the Wikipedia:Pages needing attention section in the Wikipedia:Pages needing attention/Religion section, under teminology

Hajji not being used by US Servicemen

I'd be curious to see any documentation of this, but I always assumed that calling Iraqis (specifically) "Haji" was due to the Mighty Mighty Bosstones song by that title, referring to "the baddest mf'er in Baghdad". I had that song on my iPod when deployed to Iraq in 2003, so the two points clicked, I assumed that was the original motivator. The Johnny Quest theory makes some sense too. I doubt that the slur/slang is directly connected with the Hajj, as almost no Americans servicemen would have been familiar with the term "Hajj" until the US military ran security for Mecca-bound Iraqis in the first pilgrimage following the invasion. The term has to be somehow related to associating "Haji" as an individual's name, and either the MMB song or the Quest TV show would seem the main influencers featuring a character named "Haji" MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I swear to you they are saying Hadji. They are referring to the Johnny quest character. It has nothing to do with the Hajj.

It's funny people actually think it matters whether the servicemen are calling every Arab they see "Hadji" or "hajji." One title is a cliche cartoon version of a Indian prince from "Johnny Quest," and the other is an honorific title. So is it better to misrepresent all Arabs with one title or the other? Either way the American servicemen are grouping all Muslims and all things Arab under a disparaging title, and make no distinction between real human beings. Notice that the character Hadji is from India. Of course, our brave young men don't have a damn clue what the difference is.

It's not about whether one is morally better than the other. It's about factual accuracy.--Tchoutoye 01:39, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I understand it's difficult to pull the "I was there" card on the internet, but I've done two tours--one in Afghanistan and one in Iraq. It has always been my understanding that the term refers to the hajj. I have never heard anyone reference the Johnny Quest character. While many soldiers may not be aware of the specific origins, instead simply having picked the term up from others, there is no doubt in my mind that the origin is the hajj and those who have made it.

However, I don't believe it's used as a slur or a pejorative term. I think it's more complex than that. While I was a line medic, I worked every day with infantrymen. To cope with the mental pressures that result from killing other human beings, soldiers develop a variety of coping mechanisms. One is to nickname the enemy, and in the process, dehumanize them.

Functionally, then, they are no longer killing a person. They are killing a hajji, a skinny, a gook, a kraut, a nip, and so on. In the past, there has been some overlap between these terms and racial slurs, yes. But I imagine that's simply a question of convenience. If we wanted to refer to Arabs by a racial slur, there are plenty available. It is telling that we did not choose any of them, preferring instead to select a new term to utilize (as we did the the Somalis). Squirrelcar (talk) 02:40, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hajji not a slur=

I believe that the use of the word “slur” should be replaced with the term “slang”. Political views notwithstanding, “slang” is more-accurate as to the nature of the phrase.

Webster’s defines “slur” as “an insulting or disparaging remark or innuendo” whereas “slang” is defined as “an informal nonstandard vocabulary composed typically of coinages, arbitrarily changed words, and extravagant, forced, or facetious figures of speech”.

User Garzo has stated that the term “hajji…has recently become an ethnic slur commonly used among the armed-service personnel of the United States of America to refer to Muslims and Middle-Eastern people in general.”

The context of that term is common language used by some people. While, not politically correct or accurate in itself, the term is used as a generic reference, not an insult. History has recorded such similar identifiers such as “Charlie”, “Jerry”, “Ruskie”, etc. I argue the aforementioned terms are more “slang” than “slur”. “Slur”, I believe, would include terms such as “nigger”, “faggot”, “chink”, “WASP”, etc.

Context is key. Check the link provided below under "Hajji, slur?" Notice the contextual use of the word hajji. I quote: "You motherf****ng hajji lover." In the evolution of language, this is when "slang" becomes "slur" -- when hate is implied. Even worse, I think, is if the servicemen are referring to Hadji from the "Johnny Quest" cartoon. It is the more ingnorant of the two terms, the character is Indian, so I'm betting on that.

The word is an Arabic honorific. Misuse of the honorific in this way is offensive to Muslims. Using a generic term to describe someone who finds that term offensive is the use of slur. The list above divides slurs into two camps depending on what the author thinks is more offensive. Changing 'US military personnel' to 'some people' introduces vagueness. The original contributor of that paragraph felt quite clearly that the term originated among the US military. --Gareth Hughes 13:15, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While it may be offensive to Muslims, we should not hide the truth. We are not here to sanitize History, but rather to make sure that it is reported accurately. It is to our shame if we have done something offensive, but it never the less should be reported so that others might know what we have done. Apologies can come later.

It's seems we differ on two main points; the choice of slur vs. slang and the specific use of the word by United States military personnel. While, I personally see 'slang' as more accurate, I'm not Muslim and won't attempt to pretend I know what is offensive to someone who is. I do strongly feel that the difference between the words is the intent of the speaker. If the term is not meant to offend, yet does, is that slang? I think of the "Pennsylvania Dutch" that we have in my state. That society is in no way Dutch or from Dutch origin, but as the legend goes when they first arrived and said they were from "Deutschland" (Germany), their neighbors misinterpreted that as being from the Netherlands. Was it malicious? No. Perhaps those with more experience being called that term should weigh in this debate.

While the meaning of the word is an honorific to the Muslims, there is not doubt that is is being used as a slur. This one fact, that is used solely against(as in not just a mention of, but rather as a degragation towards) Muslims of Arabic decent, rather than for or towards Muslims in general, makes this perfectly clear.

A good historical and current example of this honorific/slur duality would be the word "nigger", or "nigga", in the American society. When said between two African Americans it is often used in the honorific sense. When used between an African American towards any other race, it is often used as a slur. This is not always the case, but more often than not is the case.

Another spelling of this word by Westerners appears to be "Haji" and is more commonly used in this form in reports of slurs coming from the US military personel returning from Iraq.

As for the main users of the alternative meaning being US military, there is absolutely no way one can accurately state that. The term in its second definition is certainly not used universally and only by US service members. It is in no way part of US military doctrine or national vocabulary. "Some people" use that word that way; no modifiers are appropriate. Do US military members use the term? Probably. Do non-military people? Absolutely. I'd recommened the phrase "some people" be changed to "Westerners", but the first Asian to say it, would destroy the article's accuracy. "Some people" appears the most appropriate.

So, if I were to call an English person "Your Majesty" would that be a slur or slang? If I dropped the term "your honor" into the conversation when asking for gas "Can you fill the tank your honor" would that be a slur or slang? I would say it would be classed as a slur as I was denigrating a title of respect. Added to which a page that links here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._Army_acronyms_and_expressions#Slang_acronyms is a little more open to the origins of this denigrating term. "Some people" should be written as "Americans, especially the American occupying forces". After all you ask "Do non-military people? Absolutely." This may well be the case in America but nowhere else in the civilised world is this term used.

If you called an English person "Your Majesty" while asking him to fill your tank you would get punched in the nose because that person would presume you are trying to insult him. And the use of "hajji" for Iraqis or Arabs doesn`t sound like "Charlie" or "Jerry" to me at all. Sounds more like "gook" for a Vietnameese or a SE-Asian.

You wouldn't get punched over "Your Majesty," of course, and saying so is absurd. "Americans, especially the American occupying forces" implies all or at least a vast majority of Americans, which is flatly untrue; I'd never heard the term outside of an academic usage before I read the article. "Some Americans" seems accurate, though.

To the anon who said "Some people" should be written as "Americans, especially the American occupying forces". After all you ask "Do non-military people? Absolutely." This may well be the case in America but nowhere else in the civilised world is this term used", you're wrong to say only Americans use it as a slang term for Arabs/Muslims. Most of the British and Australian soldiers with whom I worked in Camp Victory in 2005 used the term. Stop pretending only America is crude/racist enough to use this term. Parsecboy 23:39, 30 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Number

If my grammar is not erroneous, хаджи/хаџи/hadži are plural, whereas χατζής is singular. I think English hajji covers both singular and plural. --Tēlex 18:17, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, хаджи/хаџи/hadži is not the way to say a Hajji, it's only the title (like hadzhi Nikola). The person is called a хаджия/хаџија/hadžija, plural хаджии/хаџии/хаџије/hadžije and so on. Todor →Bozhinov 18:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, if you want that, the Greek equivalent would be Χατζη- (unaccented, and spelled together with the following name). Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:33, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely predates 2003

I was a US Marine reservist in the first Gulf War in 1991, and the phrase "hajji" was heavily used to describe *any* non-service person in that theater. Whether they were local Saudis or 3rd country nationals driving trucks (Indians, Malaysians, Philipinos), they were all called hajjis. Hamburgers were from the local hamburger stand were called hajjiburgers from the hajjishack.

I was only in Saudi Arabia from Jan 1991 to May 1991, so I can't attest to it's usage from August 1990-Jan 1991.

Of course, good luck finding printed citations of that.

Not Just Civillians

While I was at Sather Air Base, everyone who wasn't part of the coalition was a hajji. The insurgents, the barber, the launderer, the men, women, and children. Sometimes it was a slur and sometimes it wasn't. It just depended on the context. I was, however, dressed down for saying it on one occasion, so some people are more sensitive about its use than others. Hughsonj (talk) 21:59, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Used by "non-Arab muslims"?

This recent edit says that the honorific is only used by "non-Arab muslims". What does that mean? Non-Arab means what, in this case? Those who are not native speakers of Arabic? Those who do not self-identify as Arab? Those who do not come from areas that are traditionally seen as Arab?

Isn't Hajj an Arabic word?

Aren't there lots of Arab speakers who apply this term? -- Geo Swan 17:55, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

it's not used by Arab speaker, instead Arab use Haajj حاج. Non-Arab Muslims in my edit meant Non-native-Arabic-speaking Muslims. I don't understand why my edit was deleted?. --Lanov 00:29, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted your edit because I believe it to be misinformed. Your comment above demonstrates that you may be confusing the two Arabic words حج Template:Semxlit and حجي Template:Semxlit. The former translates as 'pilgrimage', the latter as 'pilgrim'. Therefore, only the latter is applied to people. Anyone who does the Hajj is entitled to be a hajji, whether you are an ethnic Arab, an Arabic speaker or neither of these things makes no difference. — Gareth Hughes 12:00, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I see. so it's an English word and therefore it doesn't matter if you are an Arab or not. Anyhow, and just to let you know that Arabs do not use the word حجي Template:Semxlit. Instead, they use حاج Template:Semxlit. I'm a native speaker of Arabic and I never heared the word Hajji before. Also, in Lisan Al-Arab, the largest and the most realible Arabic dictionary, you can't find the word "Hajji" حجي under the root H-J-J or حج . --Lanov 17:30, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I didn't see the alif in your حاج and thought you meant حج, and that there was no term used among Arabs. Template:ArabDIN is the classical word for pilgrim, but I'm sure I've heard حجي in colloquial Arabic. The form حجي is an adjective form, and is more widespread in translation. Perhaps we need to find out more about the etymology of this word. I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying. — Gareth Hughes 14:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hajji, slur?

It doesn't matter what the original use of "hajji" by American servicemen was supposed to mean. What matters is that it has become an ethnic slur. See:

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=3416895&imageID=461305289&MyToken=fd781dbf-631a-4c4d-b362-14e3479375e7

Definately a slur and predates 2003

We were using it as a slur in the late 90's in an Arab linguist unit of the 3rd Infantry Division during the late 90's.

Hajji as family name

Hajji is used as family name, e.g. in North Africa. A typical example from Morocco where that family name is documented to be used at least since the 14th century and is still in use today.

During french occupation, Hajji was sometimes transcribed as Hadji; but was later reverted to the original Hajji to reflect the Shadda transliteration convention.

It's easy to distinguish the family name Hajji from the honorific islamic title: the former follows the first name, while the latter precedes it.

A Hajji (family name) is usually but not necessarily a Muslim; as happens when non-muslim women marry a member of the Hajji family.

feminine form?

is there a feminine conjugation of hajji? -Lordraydens 08:41, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Malays prefix 'Haji' to a man's name, or 'Hajjah' to a woman's, to indicate they have completed the pilgrimage to Mecca. As such, it is a title of respect. Note the single 'j' in the masculine form, syllabised as /Ha-ji/, and the double in the feminine, syllabised as /Haj-jah/. The form 'Hajjah' suggests an Arabic original 'Hajjat', where the final 't' mutates to 'h' unless followed by a vowel.

However, I do not know whether the English term 'hajji' used by American soldiers in Iraq to denote 'civilians' generically, irrespective of their having completed the Hajj, has a feminine form in English. yoyo 03:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

thank you. i was pretty sure it was hajjah. -Lordraydens 07:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Haji Is a Racial Slur

"Haji" is certainly not slang, but a negative racial/ethnic slur. A U.S serviceman calling an Iraqi a Haji is akin to a U.S servicemen calling a Vietnamese person a "gook" or a Japanese person a "Jap". Padishah5000 16:17, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

American military personell are not calling the Iraqis "haji", but "hadji", as in the Turban clad character from Jonnie Quest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.144.134.2 (talk) 17:19, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

you will hear what you want to hear

When I was in Iraq we used the tern Haji for anything local,

Haji shop = when locals were allowed on or around bases to sell variouse items to service personell.

Going Haji = driving across the medians in divided roadways or off the normal confines of the paved road to avoid traffic, altercations, military convoys, or just generally slow people.

Haji(food name ie. burger, pizza, subway.etc) = ANY food you could get outside from the chow hall.

Haji taxi = the white vehicals with orange fenders are identified as freelance taxis all throughout Iraq.(look at the photos or news clips, you see them more than you realise)

In my group I never heard anyone using the term in a hateful or demeaning way. I never heard it as a slur directed at anyone as in "you sorry haji" or the like. I think it can be taken and viewed many different ways depending on you persepyion and predisposition.

Suasponte

Original research is not allowed on Wikipedia. Oh, and if you called me a "Haji", I would consider it a racial slur. Padishah5000 08:42, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

an example of usage, please?

Placed before given name and family name, or just preceding the family name? (yes i know that the anthroponymy is not quite like ours, but suppose so-and-so ben/ibn (son of) so-and-so)
Ah never mind i found it in Arabic name, it prefixes everything.
--Jerome Potts 23:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]