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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 72.84.240.53 (talk) at 20:30, 7 July 2008 (→The Greatest). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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  1. Discussions through end of 2005
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  3. Discussions in 2007

Regarding his "conversion" to Sufism

Sufism/Tasawwuf is a part of Sunni Muslim orthodoxy. In fact, all the major Sufi orders, such as the Qadri and Naqshbandi orders, are Sunni in belief, and the majority of "folk" Muslims accept Sufism as a part of Islam. So its quite misleading to suggest that Ali has left Sunni Islam and "converted" to Sufism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.202.74.134 (talk) 17:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unnecessary blockquotes

I changed two blockquotes into inline quotations on the "Vietnam War nearly ends career" section. I did so because blockquotations are used only if the cited text takes four lines or more, and neither quotation took this long. For more information see Wikipedia:Manual of Style.

MetaManFromTomorrow 19:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Quotes section should be moved into WikiQuote

Here are Ali's quotes that were added to the article. Normally we don't have quotes sections because that's what WikiQuote is for... we can easily provide a link to that project.

  • "I'm so fast that last night I turned off the light switch in my hotel room and was in bed before the room went black."
  • "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up."
  • "To be a great champion you must believe you are the best. If you're not, pretend you are."
  • "If my fans think I can do everything I say I can do, then they're crazier than I am."
  • "God gave me this illness to remind me that I'm not number One; he is."
  • "Superman don't need no seat belt." [Comment to flight attendant, who replied, 'Superman don't need no airplane, either.']
  • "I'll beat him so bad he'll need a shoehorn to put his hat on."
  • "If you even dream of beating me you'd better wake up and apologize."
  • "Fifteen referees. I want fifteen referees to be at this fight because there ain't no one man who can keep up with the pace I'm gonna set except me. There's not a man alive who can whup me. I'm too fast. I'm too smart. I'm too pretty. I should be a postage stamp. That's the only way I'll ever get licked."

Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 15:28, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just checked the article, and there's already a link to WikiQuote. Please feel free to add quotes there. Thanks! Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 15:30, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Failed GA

I failed this article for several reasons, and it will take some time to get it fixed

  1. It's poorly sourced for it's length, only 16 ciations in a article that is about 50 KB in length.
  2. There are whole sections that are completely unsourced
  3. Poor prose thoughout, many grammar errors and one sentence paragraphs.
  4. Merge or remove the Ranking in heavyweight history subsection, unless it could be expanded more than a sentence
  5. The Ali in the media section should be converted into prose
  6. The last sentence of in retirement should be moved to the personal life section
  7. Needs a bit of a trimming his biography section, needs more info about his legacy (which is poorly sourced anyways).
  8. Lead needs to be expanded per WP:LEAD
  9. Needs a strong PoV check, parts of the article is written from a fan perpective, sentences like "Cassius Clay indeed "Shook up the world!" as he promised." should be removed.

There are more issues with this article, I hope this helps. Jaranda wat's sup 23:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for all the great input. I wasn't totally certain before submitting that the article was ready for GA, but this information should help us take the article there. Cheers! Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 02:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

quote?

This entry says, "Ali also said in 1966: 'I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong ... They never called me a nigger.'" without attribution. Wikiquote files this under "Misattributed" quotes, and claims that Ali biographer Thomas Hauser found no evidence of this quote after extensively searching. Perhaps Wikipedia should attribute its use of this quote?

Nishri 15:09, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It was actually very easy to find credible sources for the quote, although it does appear that the quote has some variations to it. Just because somebody calls themselves a biographer doesn't mean they know how to do extensive searches -- I know this from personal experience. One would have to ask, how does Time and Newsweek report on something that has no basis? Since we try to base material in this encyclopedia on what can be referenced, the greater weight is on Ali saying these words rather than not saying them. Somebody not being able to find something isn't notable. What would be notable would be Ali saying "I didn't say that". Did Hauser ask Ali? Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 16:22, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I remember seeing film clips of Ali making that statement (at least the first part), which I believe happened at a press conference following his refusal to be inducted, although I could be wrong on that point. However, I haven't seen the actual clip in recent years, although I've read reports about it. Surely the major networks would have it in their archives. --NameThatWorks 17:20, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have certainly seen the "I ain't got no quarrel with them Vietcong" in more than one clip-said on more than one occasion-if my memory is accurate, he said it in an interview with Harry Carpenter on BBC TV (UK), among other occasions. This will surely be in BBC archives. I do not recall hearing or seeing the second part of the quote. The (first part of the) quote was worldwide news at the time, so surely is not too hard to source.Messagetolove 19:02, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The full quote is based on a verifiable reference. Unless a counter-reference can be found, it probably needs to stay as-is. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 03:53, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The quote in [8] only gives the first part. The quote in [9] was indirect in a 1994 article,where it says "Ali was quoted as saying" the full quote,but it does not say where,when or by whom,and does not give any other verification. There are film clips including the first part of the quote. Is there any film clip or contemporary evidence of the full quote?Messagetolove (talk) 23:44, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Religion

So, does he reject the NOI now after converting in 1975? What are his views on them now? Also, what are his views of Malcolm X now? Is their a book documentary or book on this or can you give me some references here? I think these things need to be under the religion section of the article. Robert C Prenic 07:24, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge proposal

  • Proposal to merge article Rahman Ali (brother of Muhammad Ali) into Muhammad's article due to lack of information to cite into the article for Rahman. First the article needs refernces before being merged into Muhammad's article. Jahnx 05:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Style

22:09, 24 October 2007 (UTC)style - what about his style? - lowered hands, foot speed, swaying his head to avoid punches, ali shuffle etc? Also although were are all tired of hearing it his two fights with Hnery Coooper- they were important in his career and in particular the first as it set him up with Sonny Liston —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.94.94.105 (talk)

Ethnicity: Multi-Racial

In the statistics box at the top of the page he is described as "multi-racial". There is no citation given for this claim. If he is multiracial then I think more detail as regards his heritage should be given in the "Biography" section.
Static Sleepstorm 14:24, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In the statistics box at the top of the page he is described now as " African-American". There is no citation given for this claim. If he is African-American then I think more detail as regards to his heritage should be given in the "Biography" section considering that a few websites claim that he is part "Irish" and that "his Irish ancestor Abe Grady married an African American woman their son also married an African-American and one of the daughters of that union was Ali's mother, named Odessa Lee Grady". Mark667 (talk) 20:04, 24 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sunni?

Isn't he a Sufi now? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.162.21 (talk) 19:26, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Trading cards

To User:68.227.39.74: Your point about the various other references is well taken but does not strengthen your case for inclusion; rather, it suggests that the "Pop culture" section should be reworked as a "Bibliography". Trading cards and autographs are not particularly notable; they exist for literally thousands of athletes, and unless they are particularly rare or important (T206 Honus Wagner comes to mind) there's really nothing to be said here that couldn't also be said of those other athletes.

You do have a point about video games and other references, and perhaps those should be trimmed down. Doing so, however, does not militate for the inclusion of trading cards and autographs.

Also, if you're going to spout off about how you've "published about Ali for over a decade", your real identity (or at least your pen name) would help, instead of just hiding behind an IP address. Simishag (talk) 00:37, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I hardly spouted off. And if any degree of rancor was apparent it might have been in response to the uneven approach here or the rash dismissiveness of its self-appointed judiciary. Your editing predecessor simply ignored the inconsistency that you now recognize and responded with a succinct and arrogant "disagreed."

Ali's autographs are most sought after and of interest to millions, far moreso than the anecdotal interest in video games which have no shelf life as his EXTREMELY VALUABLE trading cards might. For example, Ali's cards have multiple recorded sales in the five figure range which exceeds 99% of other cardboard issues.

At the very least, the specific nature of your claims demands verification through proper sources. Please see WP:V. Simishag (talk) 01:11, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So, when I saw video games and comic books listed as items of pop culture quite sensibly I felt that trading cards and autographs meet that standard easily. If cards and autos can't be discussed, much to the benefit of a vast community, then the silly video/comics references must go too.

This sort of if-then "analysis" is not going to win you any friends here. You are conflating the dispute over your content with unrelated content that has existed for some time and was not (until now) in dispute. Your most recent changes are disruptive and your use of terms like "anecdotal" and "silly" are suggestive of pushing an agenda. Simishag (talk) 01:11, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It might also be of benefit to be on the lookout for individuals who can contribute and welcome them rather than this dismissive, uneven and otherwise exclusive approach that seems in stark contrast to the Wikipedia mission statement.

Yes, well, that goes both ways. Your rapid fire reverts do not suggest a collegial attitude. Simishag (talk) 01:11, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Along these lines, no one's hiding behind an IP address as you foolishly stated. Wikipedia assigns that moniker until you officially register which I did nearly immediately.

Your identity is still unclear. You claim to be a publisher (or perhaps you meant author). What have you written that makes you an authority on Ali? Surely you can provide a bibliography of your works. Simishag (talk) 01:11, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Get off your horses, boys. Your behavior thus far seems akin to a stock message board, not a community information source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KurtScribe (talk • contribs) 00:56, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Inadequate Discussion of Supreme Court Decision

The discussion regarding the Supreme Court case is incomplete. The result of the decision is not clearly stated, and there is no analysis of the reasons that the Court overturned the lower court decisions. The text as it presently exists also suggests that the Court was moved by increasing public support. To suggest the Court acted on that basis, and not according to the law, amounts to an attack on the integrity of the Justices. If it is true, it needs to be supported by citation to the source material. 130.13.4.81 (talk) 17:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)John Paul Parks130.13.4.81 (talk) 17:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Greatest

Do we not all agree that Ali was the best? Stop arguing and put references in. I am totally shocked that such a famous person does not have a GA article or an FA rating. Read the books. --andreasegde (talk) 19:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC) he wasn't. don't get me wrong, I am a huge ali fan but he wasn't and he even said he wasn't.[reply]

Claim?

I have seen this claim , "Joe Frazier, who had become champion during Ali's absence from the ring, often gave financial assistance to Ali during this time." on a number of occasions do we have any source for it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.234.10.144 (talk) 14:27, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Famous sayings

"Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.179.139.5 (talk) 18:18, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

who ever wrote this is a complete dork he was not born on 1942 he was born on 1942 i know he is mt uncle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.247.112.12 (talk) 18:34, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

protected

why is it protected? Ieditrandom (talk) 22:04, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

well, why can't i edit it if i'm a registered user? Ieditrandom (talk) 22:09, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your account has to be active for four days and make at least 10 edits efore you can edit semi-protected pages. Please see WP:AUTOCONFIRM for more. Thingg⊕⊗ 22:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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