User talk:Hardyplants

Welcome!

Hello, Hardyplants, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

• The five pillars of Wikipedia
• How to edit a page
• Help pages
• Tutorial
• How to write a great article
• Manual of Style

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  --SB_Johnny|^talk|_books 14:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Mullein

Indeed... it's more a pasture and garden problem than a cultivated field problem. In general though, discussion of weed controls on wikipedia are kept to a minumum. If you're interested in the topic, however, I'm looking for collaborators on the wikibooks versions of these articles; see b:Category:Weed_profiles for the ones I've worked on so far. --SB_Johnny|^talk|_books 14:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Tepal

Hi Hardyplants. Can I ask about your edits to the page on tepals? The description that you added on 11 December, titled "clean up and clarify" seems to be at odds with the usual definition of a tepal. Do you have links to any material which supports your definition? Thanks. Owl 14:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

>Can you be more specific about what you are questioning, I listed two sources on 'additional reading'

The first paragraph of your article refers to tepals as a specific feature of the Magnoliaceae. This is at conflict with several sources online, as well as the previous version of the article on Wikipedia. I don't have access to a library at the moment, so I can't check the books you've referenced. I happen to have "Plants: Diversity and Evolution" (Ingrouille and Eddie, Cambridge University Press, 2006) here, however. It is definitely referring to tepals in plants other than magnolias. I find the previous version of the article (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tepal&oldid=91340499) to be clearer and more consistent with how other sources seem to be using the word. Perhaps you would like to view that version, and clarify the text as it stands (which is basically your version, I've just tidied up the styling a bit. Oh, and just to note - could you post on my talk page, not my user page, please? I have moved the conversation across. Thanks. Owl 17:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I didn't produce the first part but brought it up from the original start of the article. Keep in mind that Magnolia is the proposed fist flowering plant line. I do not believe any modern Magnolia corresponds the first of its kind. I will look at the article and move the first section- since you are right that its a meaning that is rarely used and should not be at the beginning. Hardyplants 17:21, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I still think the earlier version sounds clearer and more authoritative. Please don't be offended, but can I ask if English is your first language? Perhaps we should start with the previous version (link in my post above). What do you think is wrong with that as it stands? If we add back in the paragraph about evolution, do you think that is a fair description of a tepal? Owl 17:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi again. I saw your new edits - it was clearer than before, but I'm afraid I still didn't think it was as coherent and clear as I'd expect of an encyclopaedia. I've taken the liberty of editing the page myself. I've started from the earlier version, and tried to add in everything that I thought you were saying. Have a look, and if you think I've missed something that you said, let me know. Thanks. Owl 15:26, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi again, Hardyplants. Someone who wasn't logged in, at IP 209.244.187.83, reverted to your version of the Tepal article. Was this you? I must say I disagree with the revert. If you stand by your version of the article, I would like to take it to the Mediation Cabal, to get a third opinion. Thanks. Owl 22:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Embryonic

Hi Hardyplants - Thanks for your productive editing! I came across the page you had started on Embryonic, where you changed it from a redirect to Embryo. There's already quite a good page on plant development (Plant embryogenesis); maybe you could add some of your information to that? It seems to me that Embryonic should go back to forwarding to Embryo, which touches both plant and animal development. What do you think? Cheers, Figma 19:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Acanthomintha duttonii

Why did you remove the references from the lead paragraph of Acanthomintha duttonii? Mike Dillon 23:44, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for leaving the references in for your second pass. I think your changes to the lead paragraph have improved readability. Mike Dillon 00:21, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Two things. First, please be more careful with stray line breaks; they make it hard to use the "history" tab to see what has been done to an article by making inline changes look like entire paragraphs were removed. Second, what are you doing with the "[4]" stuff instead of the original references? Were they meant to refer to the Jepson manual? I've assumed that was the case and restored the "ref" syntax. Mike Dillon 02:29, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Your image upload includes statements that the image is copyrighted by the photographer. Has it been released by him? Or what? Great photo, though. KP Botany 03:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Looks like it was taken from here. The copyright statement is for non-commercial use ("personal or academic") and requires attribution. The original image uploaded by User:Anlace was incorrectly tagged with a Creative Commons license (unless Anlace is actually John Game and relicensed it himself or was granted a separate license). Also, the image on the CalPhotos site is higher resolution and would be a better source for User:Hardyplants's enlargement than the one uploaded by Anlace. This discussion might be more suited for another talk page... Mike Dillon 04:00, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Wherever the discussion belongs the image must be removed immediately. KP Botany 14:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

New article creations

Greetings! Thanks for your recent contributions to the goal of WikiProject Plants (e.g. Pentaphyllacaceae, Sladeniaceae). I was just wondering if you could make an effort to apply our standard format to the articles (see Stylidiaceae for a good example of a starter article with the correct formatting). Specifically, we'd like to see a {{Taxobox}} on each plant taxa article, bold titles (as in, the first mention of the subject of the article), and italicized genus and species names. Let me know if you have any questions about this. Also consider joining us at WP:PLANTS, where we look to other editors interested in botany for help on specific items. Cheers, --Rkitko ^(talk) 16:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Stylidium graminifolium

Greetings! I appreciate your enthusiasm for this article, but I had to revert your edits again. I maintained one sentence in the intro that you had contributed, reworded and referenced it, but the other edits introduced grammar mistakes and weren't of any great importance to the context of the article. If you can provide rationale for why these minor changes are necessary, I'll reconsider. Best, --Rkitko ^(talk) 23:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Please cease adding back the changes I've reverted and considering discussing this here or at Talk:Stylidium graminifolium. I must also inform you of Wikipedia's three revert rule. --Rkitko ^(talk) 00:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Regarding this: I am well aware of WP:OWN and I have not yet violated it. I reverted your edits for poor grammar, none of which was really worth correcting instead of reverting since it said essentially the same thing that was in the article before your edit. I then made an effort to contact you to discuss the changes you wished to make to the article but received no reply. I have reworded and referenced one contribution you made and the edit you made concerning flower shape was not reverted. Someone violating WP:OWN would most likely not be keeping some of your contributions in the article. As I suggested above, we should discuss the changes you'd like to see on the article so we can work together on it. Beyond that, I would ask that any major contribution you make to the article be referenced with a source. Review WP:CITE and WP:V for more information. Just out of curiosity, where have you been reading up on this plant? I've gotten nearly every obscure piece of academic literature on it and haven't seen one yet that specifically discusses the germination requirements. The Hort. paper by Darnowski notes that the genus sometimes requires smoke treatments, but S. graminifolium is one of the few that doesn't necessarily require it for germination success. Perhaps a rewording is in order to "highest germination success" or something similar. You can leave a response here, on my talk page, or at Talk:Stylidium graminifolium. Best, --Rkitko ^(talk) 02:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Seed photos

You wrote:

Mr. Clark thank you for your response, I have seeds of H. hispanica that I can photograph and add to the page, I can also show the seeds after they take in water- they like many species of salvia and other genera develop a thick gelatinous coat that is interesting. I also have seeds for almost 3,000 species of herbaceous plants and have wondered if it would be worth while adding pictures of them to wikipedia, hate to go threw the work and find that they have no use. Hardyplants 19:45, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I think such photos would be immensely valuable even if not all were used in Wikipedia articles. I'm assuming they would be at adequate magnification to see details (and it would be useful to have a scale of some sort in the photo), and that you'd take care not to include species that you believe to be misidentified. Identification of species (or even genera) from their seeds is often difficult, from lack of good reference material.

It would be best to place the photos on [Wikimedia Commons] so they can be used in Wikipedias in all languages. And post a notice on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Plants so editors of plant articles will know that the resource is available. I'd start out with a few, to see how much trouble it is and get suggestions from other editors for improving quality.

In short, potentially a really valuable contribution.--Curtis Clark 15:02, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your time in responding, I can take good quality pictures but have had problems with the images being to large 1.5 to 2 mgs. I can take the pictures with a 100 to 1,000 magnification with good resolution, this depends on the size of the seed, Peony species have large seeds but the Lady-slipper Orchid seeds I have are very small. To do it right I will have to construct a box that is lighted on four sides and uses a diffused light source - otherwise Its takes a lot of time to adjust the images with a photo editing program for contrast.

For the vast majority of the seeds I have I am very sure of the IDs, Sometimes I get seeds from Siberia and other Parts of Russia that come to me labeled with obscure names which are sometimes misspelled, its a choir to go threw the data bases to find the synonyms when you have the wrong spelling. Id of those species is tenitiv often, even after growing them out - since there is little info on them in English and no pictures. But its not difficult to see if the seed is in the right family or genus most of the time, but if its the right species thats a different kettle of fish.

Now that spring is here, I will be working a lot, it will take me a few weeks to get set-up. We do not have "spring" here in Minnesota - it goes from winter to summer in a few weeks, especially with the warming trend we are in now because of greenhouse gases and solar output. Here is some samples of picture I have posted already, no seeds. Hardyplants 10:15, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

File:Stem nodes.jpg

Stem showing internode and nodes plus leaf petiole and new stem rising from node.

File:CARDNEL.jpg

Young Northern Cardinal in Minnesota.

An albino gray squirrel

Global warming

The authors of both the letter and of the page in question are pretty clear. It looks to me like the proper use of a primary source, generally speaking (purely descriptive claim, attributed to the source rather than in an editorial voice.) Regardless, though, the inclusion of the material should be discussed as a whole. If you believe the source is inappropriate, by all means argue against its inclusion, but we've never done "disclaimers" like that. Specification of the exact number isn't problematic, of course, an increase in specificity is always good. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 13:45, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

From your somewhat verbose answer I am going to conclude that you did not understand the issue. Simply stated: If Tom says that S=4. And Ken produces a book saying that Tom is wrong. Then Tom produces a article in wikipedia about Ken's book, and says "many think" Tom is wrong and uses a quote from his own web (Toms) page as evidence that Ken is wrong and Tom is thus part of the many that he uses as a reference.

Would it not be proper to state in the page in wikipedia that the page is heavily produced by Tom when the pages uses him as an expert also.

I do not have a problem with the reference as long as those reading the page know that the person being quoited as an expert, is also the one producing the Article.Hardyplants 15:11, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Your conclusion is incorrect. Yes, I understand the issue, that you wish to insert some type of disclaimer that someone being cited has also worked on the article. No, we don't do that. You're welcome to argue that the material is inappropriate to include at all, and you might have a good case for that, but if it's determined that it is appropriate, no disclaimers. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 17:53, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Poison ivy

Yup, that's the way it's done now, although still rather new. When the common name is used for more than one species, and it is something like poison ivy, where the plant is not an ivy, but rather a member of the cashew family, it is hyphenated to indicate it's not an ivy. This issue properly belongs on the talk page of the article, not on my talk page. Please raise it there if you like. KP Botany 23:42, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Association of Members' Advocates/Requests/April 2007/hardyplants

Hi Hardyplants. I am interested in trying to help with your request. If you would like to accept this, please drop me a line at my talk page. Thank you. --Dweller 14:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello again. Would you prefer me to close the case at AMA, or is it that you would simply prefer a different member to assist you? --Dweller 08:59, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

i wish to drop the case, after giving it much thought I have decided that it is not worth the time. I wished to contribute to the page in question because it already had a good start and I had some more information and some points that would have made it more clear, but its a low priority and other items are more useful to spend time on. If you would like to still look at the issue here is a link http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stylidium_graminifolium&oldid=126277793 with my edits compared to the other editors page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stylidium_graminifolium My apologies for the slow response. Hardyplants 10:46, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I'll close the case if you wish to drop the case. --Dweller 10:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead and close the case, thank youHardyplants 10:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Reporting vandals to WP:AIV

Hi Hardyplants, thanks for your report! In future, please format reports like this: * {{IPvandal|IP Address}} below the User reported section. If you format it otherwise, the bot which removes blocked users from the list gets confused. Don't add new sections - it's all done for you already :) Thanks, and keep fighting the good fight. – Riana_ऋ 14:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

An Automated Message from HagermanBot

Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. You may also click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! HagermanBot 01:26, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Stolon

On 11 May, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Stolon, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

--howcheng {chat} 23:54, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Uvularia thing

No, I was just confused, as just before you edited the genus page, you had removed that series of "all caps" names from the image field of a taxobox, and thought you might have hit "paste" when you meant "copy" or something along those lines. Then I went further into the histories of both pages and got even more confused :). --SB_Johnny|^talk|_books 08:22, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh by the way, I have small fields of these growing along the creek on my farm. I'll try to get some more pix when they come into bloom. I've never dug them up, but might end up "rescuing" some this year from an area where the tractor will need to go through. --SB_Johnny|^talk|_books 10:19, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Bio-star

		The Bio-star
		For your extensive work with plant-related article, I present you with the Bio-star award. Circeus 16:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Little context in Thymophylla

Hello, this is a message from an automated bot. A tag has been placed on Thymophylla, by another Wikipedia user, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. The tag claims that it should be speedily deleted because Thymophylla is very short providing little or no context to the reader. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles.

To contest the tagging and request that administrators wait before possibly deleting Thymophylla, please affix the template {{hangon}} to the page, and put a note on its talk page. If the article has already been deleted, see the advice and instructions at WP:WMD. Feel free to contact the bot operator if you have any questions about this or any problems with this bot, bearing in mind that this bot is only informing you of the nomination for speedy deletion; it does not perform any nominations or deletions itself. --Android Mouse Bot 2 14:14, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Deletion

At the time I deleted the article, it consisted only of an image and a taxobox with no text, and therefore wasn't really an article. It hadn't been edited for an hour, so it didn't look like an article in production, and I had no way of knowing if the creator would ever return to it. It's best keep an article on your word processor until there is enough to survive a speedy deletion.

I'm not sure why I didn't put a reason, presumably I either thought it was self-evident or simply forgot to do so - either way my apologies for that omission.

You said I deleted the picture too. I don't think that is correct. The current image appears to be the one uploaded before the article was deleted, and I don't remember deleting the apparently validly licensed image. Hope this clarifies things, and sorry again for not giving a reason, jimfbleak 05:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:AIV Request

Thank you for making a report about 131.172.4.45 (talk · contribs · block log) on Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism. Reporting and removing vandalism is vital to the functioning of Wikipedia and all users are encouraged to revert, warn, and report vandalism. However, administrators are generally only able to block users if they have received a recent final warning (one that mentions that the user may be blocked) and they have recently vandalized after that warning was given. The reported user has not yet been blocked because it appears this has not occurred yet. If this user continues to vandalize even after their final warning, please report them to the AIV noticeboard again. No final warning for 131.172.4.45. Left uw-vandal4, but some edits look legit -- wrp103 (Bill Pringle) ^(Talk) 04:01, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Stuartia

I've undone your revert to the Stuartia article; it lost far too much new information that I had added (and which in fact supported the spelling as "Stewartia"). As several editors have taken an interest in this article, if you intend to edit it, I would suggest discussing it on the talk page first. MrDarwin 22:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Plant articles

Hi Hardyplants - couple of requests as per the wiki Manual of Style - could you use scientific measures on plant pages, not imperial units (incomprehensible to 90% of the world's population); also (re your additions to e.g. Verbascum thapsus) to use spellings relevant to the page (thus American English or Canadian English for American native plants, British English for European native plants, Commonwealth English for Asian plants, etc.). Thanks! - MPF 22:13, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Although MPF perhaps exaggerates the percentage of people who don't comprehend Imperial units, keep in mind that the percentage of people who do comprehend metric units of length, volume, mass, and temperature is even greater, and they are the norm in modern US scientific publications. Imperial units may be provided in parentheses.--Curtis Clark 01:11, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Not good to edit other people's talk page contributions.

See WP:TALK#Others.27_comments . I have reverted your edit [1] as it inserted talk into mine and messed with what I said. If you want that word in the article you are going to have to come up with much better cites than what you have provided to date. I have no problems with him being an atheist but it is an attribute taken out of context for that article. His other attributes that are verifiable are descriptions that are more worthy for inclusion as they are more topical to that particular book article. Your trying to insert one unreferenced word "atheist" is based on your own research or interpretation of the references and how you can apply them to a passing reference that is secondary to the book synopsis. Ttiotsw 00:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Go back are read over the refs, its clear those that new of him new he was an atheist:

1. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,748144,00.html?promoid=googlep

::# CANABAL. Handsome as the Hollywood villain of Mexican cinema, His Excellency Tomas Garrido Canabal has been the terror of Catholics as Governor of the State of Tabasco. "What is God?", Canabal is fond of sneering. "Nobody can tell me, but God has cost Mexico billions! We are going to stop that waste." Most people thought Canabal would pop up in the Cardenas Cabinet as Minister of Education, to scourge the pious with fresh assaults of Godless teaching.

Hardyplants 00:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Please read what I wrote - "I have no problems with him being an atheist but it is an attribute taken out of context for that article."

Basically your cites do not support the claim of atheism in the context of this article. I am not doubting he is "atheist", what I am doubting is how you are plucking one word that isn't obvious from the cites should be used.

This is like repeatedly calling a plant (e.g. Gorse) an "invasive" species when the context of the article was Gorse in Scottish art and citing New Zealand references to Gorse. No one doubts gorse can be invasive but in a Scottish article indirectly related to the subject ?.Ttiotsw 01:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

here we go:

The book is about a anti-religious atheist that eliminates the catholic church from Mexico and his persecution of a tainted priest.. Its generally know that the book uses Garrido Canabal as its arch-type. In real life Garrido Canabal was an atheist that persuced the church in Mexico. so you are saying that the fact that Canabal is an atheist whom persecuted the church in Mexico, in similar fashion to the character in the book, does not relate to the book. The motivation for both the real person and the character in the book is their atheism. Hardyplants 01:55, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Please don't make this personal

Look I don't go around "purging sources" of any kind. I reviewed your sources because I have Religion on my watch list and I noticed the reverts. So I looked into the sources and you know the rest. This is pretty normal editorial behavior and its not personal by any means. Also, if you didn't realize what the guidelines for reliability were then its no big deal. Now you know where to find them. Just as an aside, however, in academia materials such as the ones you used as references would not be deemed reliable either and would not be acceptable sources even in a student paper. At least this is the case in the United States. Again, no worries, just take a look at the guidelines.PelleSmith 03:30, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I know the guidelines, looked at them when a problem came up in another article were some one used there own online blog as a reference and it was voted on that it was a legitimate source. Its Ok I will post some hard cover sources- and I do not mind the questions about clarifying the sources. So do not worry about any hard feelings. Hardyplants 03:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

your comments on Talk:Geological history of Earth

your comments- I would cut out 90% of the parts talking about life on earth and move it to its own page, and start with the creation of the soler system and the differences between the earth and other plants. Then move on to covering the two driving forces effecting geology of the earth- the oceans and the water cycle and plate tectonics. SXo basicly I think it would flow better and make more sense in the outline format:

• cause of geologically change: formation of the sun, planet, ocean, plate tectonics weathering etc.
• effects of geologically change
• results of geologically change; change in atmosphere, life, continental drift, mountain building etc.
  

Hardyplants 19:36, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

my comments- as far as i have get from your comments i think you are willing to remove the life on earth section from the article. ummhhh... i think the article specifies a bit about life on earth. i have added that section in order to make it more encyclopedic. the article specifies more about geological timeline and physical features of the earth. thanks, sushant gupta (talk · contribs) 08:26, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

fine i am re-re structuring the page. Sushant gupta (talk · contribs) 08:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Goliath

Hi. Since you were taking an interest in some edits I did there (Goliath) recently, you might like to go back and see what I've done since then. I'd value your comments and input. PiCo 12:09, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Randy DuBurke

I have reverted your removal of the ((notability)) tag at the article Randy DuBurke because you left no summery or talk explaining its removal. If you have a rational why the tag is incorrect or if you did some thing else to address the underlying problem please explain it before removing the tag. Thank you. 69.72.7.81 04:35, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

You should get a username here on Wikipedia, below is a edit summery

User talk:69.72.2.70

• 22:18, 20 June 2007 (hist) (diff) Shoot (←Replaced page with 'dick')
• 17:05, 20 June 2007 (hist) (diff) Randy DuBurke (added notability tag)

I checked on the notability of Burke on the net and He looked "good" so reverted your edit as more vandalism. Hardyplants 07:04, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Articles you might like to edit, from SuggestBot

SuggestBot predicts that you will enjoy editing some of these articles. Have fun!

Stubs Storage organ Rosoideae Anthopleura Anemone sylvestris Stolon Northern red anemone Scrophulariaceae Oleaceae Rubus occidentalis Anemone coronaria Anemone ranunculoides Arisaema Hermeneutics Anemone nemorosa Marriageable age False anemone Prunoideae Mullein Cama (animal)

Cleanup Chad (paper) Rose of Jericho Poppywort Merge Axillary bud C-symmetry Germination Add Sources Actinotoxin David and Jonathan Calla Wikify Henry B. Plant Monarda Pelton's Rose Gentian Expand Spathiphyllum Liatris Upper Occoquan Sewage Authority

SuggestBot picks articles in a number of ways based on other articles you've edited, including straight text similarity, following wikilinks, and matching your editing patterns against those of other Wikipedians. It tries to recommend only articles that other Wikipedians have marked as needing work. Your contributions make Wikipedia better -- thanks for helping.

If you have feedback on how to make SuggestBot better, please tell me on SuggestBot's talk page. Thanks from ForteTuba, SuggestBot's caretaker.

P.S. You received these suggestions because your name was listed on the SuggestBot request page. If this was in error, sorry about the confusion. -- SuggestBot 02:57, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Project Plants

Hey, you've made a ton of edits on plant articles! Why don't you join ProjectPlants? Aelwyn 09:16, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Lathyrus lanszwertii

I'm trying to understand the situation with this plant, why IPNI lists it as it does, but you seem to be trying to prove something you already know. Can we work towards resolving the situation about why IPNI says what it does, with all of the information, or if you already know what you want to do about it, please just spell out why, so I can understand where you're coming from? When IPNI lists something like this, there is a reason in the literature for it, I would like the article to be accurate--knowing the reason also means we can include information so that our readers won't be confused by what they find. KP Botany 18:15, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I apologize, you had said before that you use horticultural resources, and if I had remembered that I would have understood where you were coming from on this. KP Botany 00:59, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Goliath's armour

Hi. I deleted your link to the Speiser article on ancient armour, for reasons I've described on the talk page. But I do appreciate your input, and I hope you'll continue to monitor what I write in a similar critical fashion. (I'd appreciate any comments you might like to leave on the Talk page regarding my arguments there).PiCo 04:45, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi again. Your addition about the Speiser material was good. I've made an amendment to merge it with the Yadin material. Grateful to know what you think. PiCo 04:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I've made a new para on textual variants of the Goliath story. If you have time, I'd appreciate your assessment. As for the Greek armour question, I'm still investigating and considering and will get back on it in due course. (Hope I'm not bothering you with this, but I like to have someone with a critical eye watching what I edit). PiCo 10:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your work on the Sumamry section, it's exactly the input I want. I've changed "wounds" to "strikes", which is closer to the textual meaning I think (certainly more in keeping with the KJV "smote", and also to modern translations). It's verse 50 that's the problem: it clearly says "David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and struck the Philistine, and killed him; there was no sword in the hand of David." It seems to have been an interpolation into the original etxt, as it's not in the LXX, and without it there's no ambiguity about how David killed Goliath - stunned him with the stone, then decapitated him. One does wonder what Goliath's armour-bearer was doing all this time.PiCo 12:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

There is a problem with the current text, it starts off with Goliath being wounded and then hes dead and then its says he is killed because his head was cut off. To me it looks like what it might have said was David wounds or strikes down Goliath with the stone and David kills him by cutting off his head with Goliaths own sword. Instead we have a text that adds the extra word (kills) or is missing a word that links the second kills to the rest by way of saying this is how David kills Goliath.

I am inclined to believe that the story was told like so -

Thus David 01732 prevailed 02388 over 04480 the Philistine 06430 with a sling and a stone 068, and he struck 05221 the Philistine 06430 and killed 04191 him; but (because) there 0369 was no 0369 sword 02719 in David's 01732 hand 03027. {to kill Goliath}Then David 01732 ran 07323 and stood 05975 over 0413 the Philistine 06430 and took 03947 his sword 02719 and drew 08025 it out of its sheath 08593 and killed 04191 him, and cut 03772 off 03772 his head 07218 with it

. The texts seems to beg for an explanation of how Goliath was killed and implies the stone was not enough to do the job right away. We might never know though unless an older fragment shows up some were. For a modern take on the word smote look at this http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=%D7%A0%D7%9B%D7%94&btnG=Search+ImagesHardyplants 12:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

"One does wonder what Goliath's armour-bearer was doing all this time."

what is the job of an armour bearer- to clean and put away and transport the weapons, I think also to help the solder to get dressed, sounds more like a clerk to me If you were a good boss your clerk might sacrife his life for you, on the other hand, if you are hard difficult boss he might be happy to see you face down in the dirt with a stone in your head. Hardyplants 12:41, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Carya aquatica

Thanks, it needs work, but I really don't have the time, and was hoping someone would jump to the rescue. I'm going to unwatch now that you have it. KP Botany 21:40, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Decurrent at AFD

Just in case you hadn't noticed. The debate is here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Decurrent. Circeus 17:03, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[2]

The link does not justify the quote. Appears to be a Wikipedian's own translation from the French, misusing Whom. Though, if you can live with the grammatical error, and its misleading citation, so can I. Cheers, DBaba 03:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Rhabdocline pseudotsugae

Amazing how the urge to expand an article can just spread like that. : ) Nice work btw. IvoShandor 10:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Please use talk section on State atheism before reverting.

Even your own source you provided does not state Sunday was eliminated it just says that it had less of a chance of being a holiday. Lenin introduced the Gregorian calendar though subsequently this was altered in bizarre ways to improve production and utilise machinery though as it would happen central planning isn't really up to managing realities. Please reconsider if the text you have added really reflects the sources you are providing as I feel it doesn't. Why I was claiming it is synthesis (in associating it with "state atheism" is that Lenin introduced the Gregorian calendar so the case isn't as clear as the article claims it is and it is original research to grow the scope of what a source says (in this case sticking in the word "eliminate"). Ttiotsw 11:52, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Go back a read it again... it clearly says "In only one respect the five-day week was an unqualified success, from the Soviet point of view. It did help to make people forget Sunday" if Sunday was still around how could they forget it. The week ends were eliminated and staggered five day weeks implemented, this did not work so they moved to a week with out Sundays instead going to a six day week. Since a seven day week is very important in regards to religious holidays and the sabbath and the Lords day- the only real purpose for such an odd work week is to do away with those days. As the article on wikipedia even says. Hardyplants 12:09, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

...and then the source says "it had less of a chance of being a holiday..." but how can it even have any chance of being a holiday at all ?. No, it is still there except it's rarely a day off work. This is why the claim of "elimination" is dubious.

Also what we have is Lenin (I think he was a Marxist and Communist !) introduces the Gregorian calendar and many years later the Government mucks around with it, so even the blanket claims that "State atheism" are unclear. This is once again about "anti clericalism". Ttiotsw 12:17, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Please read WP:STALK before cherry-picking reverts on my edits. Please read the sources too !

You reverted one of my edits from 4 days ago in an article that is meticulously watched by many other editors and has had nearly a dozen changes since my one small change and in which you never (AFAIKS) have edited before. OK I'm not really worried about stalking but your edit summary was "this is unclear and does nor follow the source given.". This doesn't make sense as you have reverted it to say....."in Dawkins's positions, and that the "religion as a virus" ideas have disturbing precedents." and yet the source provided only uses the word disturbing in the sentence, "Dawkins nourishes a disturbing contempt for religious believers.". The word "precedents" is uniquely used in the source as, ...".... the precedents of such medical analogies, applied to certain religious and racial groups, have hardly been innocuous in the history of the 20th century." and this is why I wrote my version which used "innocuous" in it !. Please explain why you have created your own material that says "disturbing precedents" in it when that phrase (and nothing like it) is in the source ? Ttiotsw 12:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

simple...your edit made no sense. it was not a direct quote but a summation - go back and read the entire news clip again, your edit only mudded his meaning and I fear deliberately. .Hardyplants 12:26, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

If you want to change it from my version (below) to line up with the literal words and meaning of the source.

John Cornwell in his book Darwin's Angel and elsewhere suggests that there are several lapses of understanding in Dawkins's positions, and that the "religion as a virus" ideas have disturbing precedents.

Then you can change it to "suggests that there are several lapses of understanding in Dawkins's positions, and that the "religion as a virus" ideas have precedent in Nazi Germany."

<http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,2158503,00.html>

" He refers to believers as "faith sufferers", and to himself and like-minded associates as "we doctors". Much as I am convinced that Dawkins deplores the ideology of nazism, the precedents of such medical analogies, applied to certain religious and racial groups, have hardly been innocuous in the history of the 20th century. Nazi ideology subscribed from the very outset to the idea of the German people as a type of anatomy subject to bacilli. It harped on the introduction of undesirable extraneous influences on the healthy societal body, the Volkskorper, behaving like pathogens; analogies of cures, surgery and purging naturally followed. As early as 1925 Hitler lamented the fact that the state did not have the means to "master the disease"

Hardyplants 12:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

In regards to stalking, here is what it says and I would like you to show me were this applies?

WP:STALK

Wikistalking refers to the act of following an editor to another article to continue disruption.

The term "wiki-stalking" has been coined to describe following a contributor around the wiki, editing the same articles as the target, with the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor.

This does not include checking up on an editor to fix errors or violations of Wikipedia policy, nor does it mean reading a user's contribution log; those logs are public for good reason. Using the edit history of users to correct related problems on multiple articles is part of the recommended practices both for Recent changes patrol (RCP) and WikiProject Spam. The important part is the disruption - disruption is considered harmful. Wikistalking is the act of following another user around in order to harass them.

Hardyplants 13:14, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

The issue is "disruption". I guess you would have to trust me when I say that The God Delusion article is watched very closely from many points of view and if my edit 4 days ago was dubious then it would have been stamped on quickly. It wasn't. I'm hoping it was due to having "innocuous" in the same sentence as medical (innocuous...inoculate ...yup it is bad) but it may be just because people haven't worked out to even bother leaving that ref in at all.

We have an issue with State atheism where you are interpreting a source one way and I another. This is our right but for you to cherry-pick one of my edits from 4 days ago on another separate and reasonably busy article and revert just that one edit with a edit summary referring to reading sources I feel matches the definition of "disruption". You are also now starting a revert war on The God Delusion as you have reverted what another editor has done to your edit - that to others would match the definition of disruption. I'm happy that you look at my edits and there is no problems in WP:STALK with that but please do it carefully as every article has nuances as to what consensus is.

Take what you want on The God Delusion to that article as I'm not editing your changes. Ttiotsw 14:09, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

3RR warning on The God Delusion

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. . I have no idea what the problem is here. You are reverting my edits without regard for what I have said. I have filed a 3RR report against you and I will present my claims of disruption on stalking.

The edits in question are,

My original edit on 9th September - [3]

(1st) Your revert on 12th September 11:58 (picking out just my one edit out of the many that had been done between the 9th and 12th) - This I claim matches the definition of disruption in WP:STALK [4]

(2nd) Your revert of another editors edits on 12th Sept 15:33 [5]

(3rd) Your edit 13th Sep 04:23 [6]

(4th) Your edit here 13th Sep 05:11 reverting large amounts [7]

which you then self-reverted, [8]

My 2nd edit here 13th Sep 05:44 to remove text that does not appear in the sources, [9]. I reworded my edit from the 9th to see if that could fit better.

(5th)Your edit here 13th Sept 05:51 simply reverting my edit [10] Ttiotsw 08:29, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Your funny...it would be nice if you stopped the harassment thought. Hardyplants 08:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Please be aware that if you revert the page again, I will block you. Ryan Postlethwaite 08:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Inflorescence

Thank you very much for the attention you have given to this article. I'll soon make some other changes.

• Better define where inflorescences grow.
• Bracts: some call any leaf in an inflorescence a bract, some other may call them leaves sometimes (see bract). The whole article was written considering any leaf associated to a flower a bract. Once it is explained, your changes on the 'Bracts' session become confusing IMHO
• Metatopy and cone probably don't really belong here.
• I appreciated very much the nomeclatural ads (involucel, rachis, ray, umbellet...)

Please, have a look at the talk page! Aelwyn 14:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Your recent AIV

Thank you for making a report at Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism. Reporting and removing vandalism is vital to the functioning of Wikipedia and all users are encouraged to revert, warn, and report vandalism. However, administrators generally only block users if they have received a recent final warning (one that mentions that the user may be blocked) and they have recently vandalized after that warning was given. The reported user has not yet been blocked because it appears this has not occurred yet. If this user continues to vandalize after their final warning, please report them to the AIV noticeboard again. Thank you. This user only vandalized once this month. --w^{L<speak·check>} 20:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Sure.. Ok, they have been blocked three times already and have history of more than 50 edits, that are only vandalism. Hardyplants 20:38, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

In my experience it was unusual to get a registered user blocked and well-nigh impossible to get an IP blocked, so I gave up reporting to AIV; there are better uses for my limited time on Wikipedia.--Curtis Clark 13:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

September 2007

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on The God Delusion. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. ornis (t) 10:13, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

So you really think the author of a book is a valid source for the number of books he has sold, especially when there is not other documentation for that number?.......standards have really come down on wikipedia if this is a valid source for this claim. When the book sells that many copies there will be valid sources stating that fact, not a sales promo on the books web-blog. Hardyplants 10:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Contributions 16:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for making a report about 213.121.172.195 (talk · contribs · block log) at Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism. Reporting and removing vandalism is vital to the functioning of Wikipedia and all users are encouraged to revert, warn, and report vandalism. However, administrators generally only block users if they have received a recent final warning (one that mentions that the user may be blocked) and they have recently vandalized after that warning was given. The reported user has not yet been blocked because it appears this has not occurred yet. If this user continues to vandalize after their final warning, please report them to the AIV noticeboard again. The IP you reported was last warned more than two days ago, on 12 September, so those final warnings are considered expired, especially for a school IP like 213.121.172.195. Some other misbehaving student is probably using that IP rather than the one who got warned. Warnings on shared IPs are usually good for about 48 hours when an administrator is deciding whether to block or not because we must consider that address as probably having a different user at different times and also how well the owner polices the public terminal being used. By the way, I warned the new misbehaving student. Jesse Viviano 09:44, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok- sounds good- It was hard to tell if it was a "school" but all there edits seem to be childish vandalism and playing around. Thanks for the note. Hardyplants 09:53, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

If you run the WHOIS on the IP from the RIPE Network Coordination Centre, you will find the name of a school in the WHOIS report. Usually, I run ARIN's WHOIS, which will point me to the correct regional IP registry if it is not an American nor Canadian IP. It told me that this IP belonged to the RIPE Network Coordination Centre, so I ran the WHOIS at the RIPE NCC, which told me that this is a school. If you noticed the links at the bottom of an IP's talk page, there are hyperlinks to each regional IP registry's WHOIS. Jesse Viviano 09:58, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Permian–Triassic extinction event

I really appreciate the help you're giving to the article. Please use WP:CITET standards for references. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 03:18, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Plant Sexuality

Hi HP - re:

• Subdioecious, a tendency many species of monoecious conifers show towards dioecy (that is, a female plant may sometimes produce small numbers of male cones or vice versa).

The above text does not make any sense, think about it for while. If the normal condition of the species is to produce plants with separate sexs (male and female plants) then they are dioecious NOT monoecious.Hardyplants 22:50, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

- the normal condition in the genus concerned (Pinus) is monoecious, with individuals producing (very roughly) 50:50 male and female cones; in subdioecious species (e.g. Pinus johannis), typically one individual will produce something like 90% male, and 10% female cones, with another individual vice-versa. They are not fully dioecious.

As an aside, it is doubtful whether there are any wholly 100% dioecious conifers; although many come close, it usually isn't too difficult to find individuals which don't conform to the standard for the species. For an example, Araucaria araucana is typically described as dioecious, but here is a monoecious individual with seed cones (green, round) and a pollen cone (brown, slender).

Hope this helps! - MPF 23:02, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

yes- thats why i removed the part about conifers from the text- so that we can stick with the normal definition of the term.Hardyplants 23:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Seed

Thanks for all the work you've been doing on the Seed article. I've noticed the section on "Seed dormancy" is growing rather long. Have you considered condensing that to a summary, and transferring the full text to a new article on Seed dormancy (currently a redirect), or using the existing articles on Seed hibernation and Germination? --EncycloPetey 16:17, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

As time permits I will move most of it to Seed dormancy, and then I can add more info that I tried to keep out to limit its size. A summery sounds good for the main seed page since most of the other sections are small any way. Seed germination should have its own page too and maybe seed dispersion, I have enough material to make both larger than the main seed page as it exists now. Hardyplants 05:15, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Cypsela

I've merged the content of the article to Asteraceae#Fruit and seed. I haven't asked because I think I'd have got no answer and the merger looked quite obvious. Let me know if it is a problem to you (almost only editor of that page). Bye! Aelwyn 16:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I can live with that, I am hoping to add pictures covering a wide range of the different types of Cypsela, maybe late winter. Hardyplants 05:18, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

If the amount of info will be satisfactory for an article of its own, please move the content from Asteraceae back to cypsela (more template?). Bye! Aelwyn 09:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Roundup

Please see discussion in the Roundup talk section. --Zeamays 22:48, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

James D. Watson

Hardyplants, thanks for the additional reference. There's no problem with the edit, per se, but the place for it is the Controversial Statements section, where that's being treated. The "Positions" section is pretty much a curriculum vitae. I've moved your reference to the CS section; there was no need to add the text, because that section already covers it. TJRC (talk) 18:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Category:Japanese citrus

There is a DRV discussion here related to the Japanese citrus category that may benefit from your input in view of your contributions to the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Plants. Thanks. -- Jreferee t/c 20:39, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Evolutionary theories on the origin of religion

could you point out the statements that you believe are not referenced. I believe essentially all the main points are referenced. Muntuwandi (talk) 17:36, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Deciduous

Hello Hardyplants, in an edit on December 4, User:Isoptera added information about glaze ice storms, giving what seems to be a web page created by him as source. This page starts with I propose that the north temperate deciduous forest is delineated by the glaze ice area. Where these forests extend out side of the glaze ice zone in the south it is because of uprooting on swamp and flood plain soils. There is a discussion of evolution implications. Since you have edited the article before and seems to knowledgeable about the subject (quite contrary to me ;-)), can you confirm if this is according to the current state of science and not original research? Thanks for your help, --S.K. (talk) 17:41, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

It appears to be just speculation and does not belong. I can think of a number of problems with the theory- but most importantly there is no supporting sources for the specific statement that these type of forests are directly correlated to glaze ice zones (there are papers on glaze ice damage http://www.ingentaconnect.com/search;jsessionid=c2hb33iqo2s6h.alexandra?database=1&title=glaze%20ice. ) I am very busy right now and have not spent to much time on Wikpedia lately, so have not kept up with changes. I think your right that its a NOR problem. 10:13, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for you're reply. I'll remove the statement, citing this discussion. --S.K. (talk) 14:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Kindly requesting your insight

Hi, Hardyplants! User:Rkitko suggested that your knowledge might be of benefit re: the discussion on Talk:Larval food plants of Lepidoptera. The issue is capitalization of genus names of plants, and making a list of links grammatically correct. Any help or insight you could provide would be much appreciated. Thanks! (note: I've also posted this issue to the WP:PLANTS talk page.) Cheers, Storkk (talk) 11:37, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your input on the talk page! I'll see if I can use it to figure out at least some of the rest. One last question re: Heather. I hope it makes sense: The linked page refers only to Calluna vulgaris. In your opinion, and weighing consistency (internal and external) vs. expediency, how do you think it should be linked? Note that there are already a few that link to, for example "strawberry plants", "pear trees" (but IMHO, this was because using the fruit name might cause confusion)... so would "heather plants" work? Would "true heathers" be better? I'm trying to use common names wherever they are ambiguous and unique... but would "Calluna" be best? I know this will probably be nothing but a guesstimate, but yours is still more informed than mine. Cheers, and thanks again! Storkk (talk) 22:29, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Paeonia peregrina

Welcome to Wikipedia. A page you recently created, Paeonia peregrina, may not conform to some of Wikipedia's guidelines for new pages, so it will shortly be removed (if it hasn't been already). Please use the sandbox for any tests. For more information about creating articles, you may want to read Your first article. You may also want to read our introduction page to learn more about contributing. Thank you. Georgette2 (talk) 18:12, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Read the article in question

Thanks, I will read the article in question tomorrow when I get access to the journal. I apologize for acting hastily as it looked to me like you were referencing the Annals of Emerging Medicine (which is actually a self-published fringe journal that is only available in hardcopy form) rather than the Annals of Emergency Medicine. That's what happens when I deal with too many things in one day and am not careful. Sorry! 01:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

No problem - Man oh man, they do have very similar titles and I can easily see how they are confusing especially in a small ref. Hardyplants (talk) 01:33, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

FYI. Shot info (talk) 02:07, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Umm...

Go to the local university library, check out a print of De Religio, they should have it, it is in the second half after the treatise on Jesus' youth. --68.3.73.87 (talk) 07:11, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

In answer to your question here

We did make a positive contribution. We removed all of the fringe theory references, unreliable sources and original research. You can thank us all for taking our time out of our busy schedules to help out. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 00:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I will remember how this is done, I was under the mistaken impression that we were to build on the premises of NPOV and inclusiveness. Hardyplants (talk) 00:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry, HardyPlants, you're just getting collateral flak from an ongoing bloody war in Homeopathy, and you fared quite well! Thank you for your references, here! Friarslantern (talk) 01:02, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Hardyplants, you must be reading a different NPOV than I am. Not ALL theories must be presented. Just the one's that are verifiable with reliable sources. So once again, you can thank us for our help. And Friarslantern...oh well. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 01:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is were you lose me, I think you or I are confusing verifiable with true, My understanding is that it does not have to be "true" but that some people make the claim or have such and such use for this. So if "X says it is used for y", we have to show that this statement is true, not that x really does what the statement says. Hardyplants (talk) 01:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

And you'd be wrong. Undue weight issues and all. If one Homeopath uses it, that's just not notable. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 05:37, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That's a different kettle of fish, so how many would have to say "X does y" or how notable would that one person have to be before it could be included? Hardyplants (talk) 05:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't let them wear you down. CabalCounterIntelligenceUnit (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Reliable sources

Here are a couple of sources that can be cited for the use of various plant species in homeopathy: the Natural History Museum's Plants and fungi used in homeopathy database and the book Plant Names in Homeopathy. Both were produced by professional botanists. I suspect the anti-homeopathy editors will still delete the references, but if so it will just prove that they will not accept any source as mainstream or reliable. MrDarwin (talk) 14:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest that this is a personal attack on those of us who support the NPOV of all articles, and do not appreciate violations of NPOV that include giving undue weight to fringe theories such as Creationism and Homeopathy, both of which are pseudoscience. Providing any reference that states what is used in homeopathy is neither notable or neutral POV. Essentially, whatever the source, unless it clearly states that the plant, used in a homeopathic treatment cures whatever, it is giving undue weight to a discredited therapy. Furthermore, unless it's a plant like St. John's wort that has a notable use (though discredited too, if you really read the references), most of the plants I've been reading here on Wikipedia don't deserve a mention. If it is notable, which is a subjective call, it should clearly state that the there is no evidence that the plant has any medicinal effect when used in homeopathy. Which they don't, since homeopathy doesn't work. If I might be so bold, most of you guys who edit these plant articles should read the homeopathy article--it is scientifically impossible. It's no different than Creationism. I know Hardyplants is not a creationist because he edits some very nice articles, and has helped me on a couple of articles, one that went to FA status. Given what we know about the Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event, we would not give weight to a theory that the event happened 6700 years ago in a massive flood, even though it is published 4000 times by creationists. Same thing with these plant articles. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 15:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Echinacea

No, we can't make medical recommendations — but we can and should report the positions of health authorities (such as the EMEA) as long as we properly source them. Feezo (Talk) 05:34, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but they need to be worded so they do not read like medical advice. I have no problem with the info - just state it in a way that does not seem like directions for use. Hardyplants (talk) 05:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Christian terrorism

Can you please stop removing reliably sourced content. I asked for an independent opinion on WP:RSN and got:

“ Juergensmeyer is certainly a reliable source... what we would call an 'expert' in the field. If there is a question as to the factualness of something he says, it can be expressed as his opinion ("according to Mark Juergensmeyer... etc.") ”

Following this, everything in the article in correctly attributed, and every point of view is cited to a reliable source. You may not personally agree with it, fine, but that does not mean you can remove massive amounts of expert reliably sourced content as you wish.

The article has now been brought into line with Islamic terrorism - same inclusion policies, same lead paragraphs etc. thus making Wikipedia more neutral. Wikipedia must be neutral on this issue - we cannot favour Christianity over Islam. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 10:56, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The source

Well the same Internet site is listed in the other links in that page too. But I try to work on for better references.ASEOR2 (talk) 18:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_origins_of_the_Hyksos

See also Yakubher-Jacob mentioned as well as their exodus, which is similar to the moses exodus theory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ASEOR2 (talk • contribs) 18:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

ASEOR2 gets all the content he has been adding from this source. He is simply on a POV-pushing campaign to put the unfounded theories from this video into articles. There is nothing else going on here. You once threatened to block him for disruptive editing. The disruptive editing continues, all he did was blank his talk page. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

that is a lie, yes I've seen part the document but I don't believe any such claims made in the horrid film altogether. There is reference for the edits I've made. I haven't never used nor never will any youtubevideos as a source. ASEOR2 (talk) 23:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Just watch the video. Every setnence ASEOR2 has added to a Wikipedia article today nat least comes from this video. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

ASEOR2 your edits violate a number of principles at Wikipedia, your misuse of sources only compounds the problem. Blanking your user page is a problem too, I hope you read all the pertinent documents the templates linked to, but since you are insistent on adding your text and sources, I conclude that you did not or you think they do not apply to you. The text on Jacob is clearly SYNTH, your source says their names have the same root meaning, and from this you indicated they are the same person!!! Hardyplants (talk) 23:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

RE: ASEOR2

Thanks for letting me know, I have blocked the sockpuppet account. TigerShark (talk) 00:13, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Pew study on percentage of American society that's Christian is original research?

How so? Llor N' Kcor (talk) 04:37, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The way you are using the study is, you are making up your own novel conclusion from the information, you need to find a reliable source that makes the statements that you want inserted, you can't make up your own conclusion about what the study might mean. I would suggest that you read the Wikipedia policies covering this area. Hardyplants (talk) 14:44, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

What exactly was my novel conclusion? Llor N' Kcor (talk) 01:24, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

"and the vast majority of members of the United States government" is a minor one, "Despite the fact" is a blatant one. Hardyplants (talk) 03:17, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Why not say "citation needed" for the first one? As for the second one, a Pew study isn't good enough for it to be a fact in spite of which their claims are made? Llor N' Kcor (talk) 05:04, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Vaccine controversy

Would you be able to tell me why my contribution to this article was deleted? All the sources are more than reliable (obtained from reputable sources online and from my libraries database). Please advise. --Amberhenderson63 (talk) 20:16, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The first part was just wrong, take a look at more informed sources and its clear that the the connection between vaccine and autism is not confirmed or even hinted at by any studies. This case was a fluke and balanced news paper articles said as much. The second part of your addition gave undue weight to a very small group of misguided parents and the reference needed a subscription - If you find a better source and word the addition so that its clear that this is a very fringe idea, I will let others that keep an eye on that page deal with it. Hardyplants (talk) 21:53, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Red Baneberry

Unless you are an expert in human physiology, please do not remove the poison warnings again from the references. ingestion of this plant can be fatal. (cut cardiac info- can't find any source that lists this.) -- go buy the book (Edible and Medicinal plants of the West, Tilford). You can also find detailed information in the Merck Index on extracts made from this plant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.70.238.44 (talk) 15:17, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit conflict]You need to find valid sources for this information, I looked over more than 25 different sources and found nothing that includes the information you inserted, I suggest that you read the 7 references I included with the article that document the information in the article. Hardyplants (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I can see I am dealing with a child. Good day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.70.238.44 (talk) 17:49, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Name calling is not going to help accomplish any thing. Can you supply any corroborating references? I looked at the type of books you source produces and it does not instill confidence in me that he is a reliable source in this field, if what is attributed to him is correct. If you can supply sources that support his statements then we can work from there. Hardyplants (talk) 19:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I do not think dialouge will be helpful on this topic. It's obvious you are not an expert in this area. In addition to being completely familiar with the subject matter and a wealth of references as well, I have hands on experience with all of these plants, in the lab and out of the lab. ok? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.70.238.44 (talk) 00:27, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

This is easy - all you have to do is supple some references....I have used eight already and I am still waiting for some from you. I have no problem with what ever the valid sources say and would be happy to incorporate what ever is confirmed in the article. Hardyplants (talk) 03:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Good. The materials listed all come from the cited source. I have worked with this plant and it grows nearby, and I harvest the roots for herbal medicines. The berries are quite toxic -- at least the varieties in our area certainly are. This plant -- Veratrum -- is far more interesting and grows nearby as well -- they are asleep at present -- but waking up soon. There were several plants in North America used as arrow poisons, and Red baneberry (white baneberry also) was one of them. Very dangerous to have in a garden I would think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.70.238.44 (talk) 03:21, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Like I said above your source seems lacking, and should be backed up by valid science based sources. The plants are grown in many gardens and it is common in the wild, so no need to go on your assumption that it is "very" dangerous, as the published data does not support this observation.

Its has toxic properties, yes - like a large number of plants but it is not in the class of belladonna or hemlock or yew The plants should not be eaten, though they do not tasty very good. Hardyplants (talk) 03:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

(Sigh ...) You are simply wrong about that. You are more than welcome to test your own theories by eating a large number of these berries. You can email me before you do and I will make certain someone is there with atropine, potassium permanganate, procardia, and andrenaline to get you heart started back up again -- if you really want to test your theories. :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.70.238.44 (talk) 05:25, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The truth is that I know at least two people that have eaten the berries by mistake, they do not have an enjoyable taste and cased some mild stomach discomfort, but this is original research and has no place in wikipedia. What caused more harm than the actual eating of the fruits was the news that they had eaten "snake berries" when they asked about the bright red berries in the woods - no one likes to be told they have eaten poison!. Hardyplants (talk)

OK, this is on par with the reality of the situation here. Red baneberry will cause cardiac problems with children and people with existing cardiac issues. You have to eat a lot of them too -- about 30-40 -- but they will cause your heart to slow down and in a small child or someone with a pacemaker or other problems they can be very dangerous. And despite your sources, there have been folks admitted into hospitals for eating them, but the affects wear off in 4-8 hours with no permanent damage. If you eat enough of them, they can really mess you up, and the White Banenerry and European species is very toxic compared to the red ones. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.70.238.44 (talk) 06:40, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Polygonum

Also, you may want to check the image in the main article, it does not appear to be a Polygonum. It appears to be from the Genus Heliotropium. Now how on earth did that happen?

Lots of weird things happen around here, I will look at - but I am not that informed about these two groups of plants. Thanks. Hardyplants (talk) 05:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Christian terrorism

Greetings. Help me understand how and why you see this article as an "unpublished synthesis of published material that conveys ideas not attributable to the original sources." With so many references and relatively few {{cn}}, I am having trouble understanding the need for that tag. --Kukini ^{háblame aquí} 14:07, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Have you read threw the talk page yet? Hardyplants (talk) 14:20, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I have read through the talk page and still feel that this tag is excessive and inappropriate. --Kukini ^{háblame aquí} 16:54, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Pentaphylacaceae

The second paragraph seems unreadable to a layman like me; i'm not an expert on the subject, so i thought i'd ask if you'd be able to rewrite it? thanks. Ironholds (talk) 20:29, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Most of the second paragraph is just an overview of the taxonomic placement of the family in relation to other groups - most of it is "speculation" or more properly stated a proposed tree. It could be cut if the page was longer than a stub- but I do not think the page is going to increase in size any time soon, its meaningful information for those that study plants in groups higher than families, but for the rest of us, it appears un-useful because its context is unknown. I have the same problem when I read many of the math article on wikipedia. Hardyplants (talk) 06:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I had a look at the Angiosperm Phylogeny Website. That has Pentaphylacaceae in Ericales. It also has it as having swallowed Ternstroemiaceae, which in Wikipedia is redirected to Theaceae. The Geuten et al paper there cited isn't really helpful; the sampling is thin, and Pentaphylacaceae is represented by Sladenia, elsewhere Sladeniaceae. Lavateraguy (talk) 20:12, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the information, I have not a clue what these plants are - never heard of them before converting a red link. When I have some more time I will take a look and see if I can find the paper, if it's swallowed Ternstroemiaceae I would assume it has more than one species now - making my text in error. I have tinkered with the Pentaphylacaeae page a little but not really changed anything, my knowledge base on taxonimy at the family level and higher is weak and very dated, my main intrests are at the species level and populations and forms, especialy for plants from northern temperate regions, I have no context in relation to these tropical families. Hardyplants (talk) 00:15, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I've just checked APG II. That has it in Ericales, with Sladeniaceae and Ternstroemiaceae as optional segregates. It doesn't seem to me that there's any real problems about its placement - all the classifications you give have it around the Theaceae/Ternstroemiaceae nexus, so unless APG I has any reason for leaving it unplaced, other than a failure to sample it ... Lavateraguy (talk) 21:43, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Baldur Schirach - quotation - poem about Christ

What do you mean - "still not referenced?" Following the provided link you can download Schirach's book - the page number is provided, so you can browse there and read it - and that's not supposed to be a reference?! What would consitute a reference in your opinion?!
Regards, 217.236.236.19 (talk) 08:51, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
PS Of course it's in German so I translated it - rhymes and metrics are lost but semantics count, right?

Your translation is original research and can't be used, none German speakers can not check the reference and see what the context of, or the accuracy of the translation is. For more information see wikipedias guidelines for "no original research" There should be some of his poems already translated into English by scholars already-finding one of them with a reference would be OK. Hardyplants (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Image deletion

Glad I could be of assistance. Let me know if you have need for other basic admin actions. Guettarda (talk) 17:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Geranium

Heyas! No problem with removing the picture. Its just that here folks say that that image is of that species. I'm just puting that pic wherever ya'lls tell me to put it.  :) Qb | ^{your 2 cents} 18:29, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Its not always easy to ID a plant with out having the thing right in front of you- In this case the ID was wrong, Most likely the geranium is a form called enrendsii( spelling is off), but its not Geranium maculatum, compare the shape of the petals and the placement of the stamens at the center of the flower, another way to tell would be to look at the roots or the seeds or even the shape of the leaves but we can't do that with this picture. Thats why I believe its important to ONLY include pictures under the species that are 100 percent confirmed. You have produced some very nice pictures of flowers and I complement you on there quality. I will add some more info to those that I can. Hardyplants (talk) 20:05, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I knew that there was something amiss when I saw the picture in the infobox, and then mine... but at the same time I didnt want to second guess those who knew much more than I. Thanks so much for the compliment on my pictures!  ;) Qb | ^{your 2 cents} 21:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

User talk:71.212.87.233

This strikes me as an utterly inappropriate warning; the user is misguided, not malicious. What we have here is somebody eager to edit -- we can take the opportunity to turn them into a diligent contributor who helps out, or we can slap them in the face so that they never come back. Which would you prefer? – Luna Santin (talk) 08:38, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Which edit do you find misguided - they are all vandalisms. Hardyplants (talk) 08:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

If you want to add a welcoming message to his page - then do so, can't do any harm.Hardyplants (talk) 08:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

The edits are problematic, yes, but there's a difference in mindset between a new user who writes "My dog is really cute! I love my dog!" on a page or two, and a sockpuppet who comes by and blanks ten userpages with nasty images. In the latter case, the user is obviously up to no good and should just be blocked and done with. In the former case, we have somebody who's eager and curious; they think the site is cool, they want to edit and probably want to learn more, but chances are they're just at a loss as to where they should begin. We have a wonderful chance to point this sort of person in the right direction, instead of slamming down a sledgehammer block warning that'll probably scare them away from contributing to a project that's filled with such hostile people. First impressions and early interactions are very important for newcomers; thanks to you, this user's first experience with a Wikipedian was very abrasive and rude. How do you suppose their opinion of the project has changed in the past twenty minutes? – Luna Santin (talk) 08:53, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

"We have a wonderful chance to point this sort of person in the right direction" you really think a person that makes these types of comments "PANSYS ARE NOT JUST FLOWERS THEIR FAGS!" and "Hardcoreis when something is fucking amazing dude. Like "Highway to Hell is the most hardcore song EVER" has a good probability of becoming a constructive contributer? Hardyplants (talk) 09:04, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Stranger things have happened, yes. By the same token, do you really think that someone who describes pugs as "cute" is an imminent danger to the site that requires an immediate assumption of bad faith, including a bolded demand they stop editing altogether or be blocked? We can afford to revert a few bad edits, that's cheap, but people are an essential resource we can't afford to toss aside in such a cavalier manner. If your first encounter with a Wikipedian had been so negative, would you have stuck around? Would you have contributed all that you have? – Luna Santin (talk) 09:16, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

In any case, I appreciate that you were willing to discuss this with me, and I hope you'll bear our exchange in mind, should a similar circumstance come up in the future. I'd planned on easing up after another post or two, but it seems you've gone offline or gotten tired of the thread. My goal here is absolutely not to scare you off from reverting or warning vandals (I could take some of my own advice, perhaps), but just to try and get you looking at things from a slightly different perspective. Either way, thanks for your time, and thanks for engaging me. – Luna Santin (talk) 10:10, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Luna, you are the one who is "utterly misguided", both for characterising Hardyplants' warning as "utterly inappropriate", and for your total mis-characterisation of the vandal's actions, even to the extent of setting up straw-man arguments by quoting edits that didn't even occur (i.e. "My dog is really cute! I love my dog!") rather than discussing the the edits that actually did occur. Hardyplants is right: a lot of good editors leave Wikipedia, and the ones that remain often spent most of their time reverting vandalism and arguing with admins like you who have a ridiculously soft attitude to vandalism (and I'm not talking about coming down hard on someone who is just having a bit of fun by inserting some humour, for example, and who goes one to make good edits.) In any case, how can you seriously think that someone who writes "PANSYS ARE NOT JUST FLOWERS THEIR FAGS!" is ever going to become a constructive editor even if they tried. You would have a slightly stronger argument if the vandal had written "PANSYSPANSIES ARE NOT JUST FLOWERS, THEIRTHEY'RE FAGS!" -- David from Downunder (talk) 15:06, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, as for your comment re Hardyplants' "immediate assumption of bad faith, including a bolded demand they stop editing altogether or be blocked" (a) assumption of bad faith here was entirely justified; (b) the demand was not bolded; (c) yes, the block warning was completely justified: Hardyplants didn't use a "final warning" notice. -- David from Downunder (talk) 15:14, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd be happy to continue this line of discussion elsewhere, unless Hardy wants it here. – Luna Santin (talk) 21:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

		The Copyeditor's Barnstar
		For excellent cleanup work on Christian terrorism. Groupthink (talk) 17:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Re:Warning

I assume the warning you put on my talk page is due to haste? I was just reverting vandalism. =P Skyezx ^(talk) 07:41, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it happened because of a connection hic-up on my end... I removed the tag and I apologize. Hardyplants (talk) 07:45, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

No worries. =) Skyezx ^(talk) 07:46, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I assume this is a mistake made by Huggle? It's no problem anyway. Cheers, EJF (huggle) (talk) 20:57, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes...I see its happened to you again and you got another warning for fixing van...in both cases it looks like the warning should have gone to the IP but your change came just before the warning was sent- I think to many are using huggle now and there are delays in the view of page changes. Hardyplants (talk) 21:06, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

PITA or cute dimple in the nether regions

It is a pain in the ass -- on the other hand, it is kind of nice and really cool to me to have plant people in the history of these articles since I messed with them. Thank you. -- carol (talk) 04:52, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Grace O'Malley

Gráinne Umhaill does _not_ mean 'Grace of the Umhalls'. It's just a variation of Gráinne Ui Mháille, or Gráinne, descendant of Maille. Beastiepaws (talk) 09:37, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

That might be so, but see http://books.google.com/books?lr=&client=firefox-a&q=%22Grace+of+the+Umhalls%22&btnG=Search+Books and http://www.google.com/search?lr=&client=firefox-a&q=%22Grace%20of%20the%20Umhalls%22&sa=N&tab=pw for the use of the phase and note the blurb in last on "It is far more likely, however, that the name ‘Granuaile’is a corrupt amalgam of the Gaelic Grainne Ui (Ni)

Mhaille or Grainne Umhaill (Grace of the Umhalls)." The page needs sources and we have some for the use of "Grace of the Umhalls" Hardyplants (talk) 10:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Sources

I am familiar. Very well, either way it seems you should read more sources on the subject then Jung Chang. You would then realize that even some of the most Anti Mao historians see her work as more of a story then history. I am not holding that against you actually. Jung Changs book was heralded by the press. Only problem is, the press is not composed of historians. However, I will work on the sources for this, indeed. (Majin Takeru (talk) 13:12, 11 July 2008 (UTC))

There is more than Chang and they all seem to agree, note sources used:

• http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-8/mswv8_10.htm
• Jung Chang and Jon Halliday, Mao: The Untold Story (Jonathan Cape, 2005) Page 3.
• policy autumn 06_Edit5.indd
• Teiwes, Frederick C., and Warren Sun. 1999. 'China's road to disaster: Mao, central politicians, and provincial leaders in the unfolding of the great leap forward, 1955-1959. Contemporary China papers. Armonk, N.Y.: M.E. Sharpe. pp 52-55.
• MacFarquhar, Roderick. 1974. The origins of the Cultural Revolution. London: Published for Royal Institute of International Affairs, East Asian Institute of Columbia University and Research Institute on Communist Affairs of Columbia by Oxford University Press. p 4.
• http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/17/AR2007071701486.html
• White, Matthew. Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Twentieth Century Hemoclysm (November 2005). If you want to make an argument against one of the sources, please supply some sources of your own, I need more than opinion to evaluate the issue. Also note that the page on Maoism had around 20 different references from varied works and opinion's of the subject, All but one or two were supplied by me, if the two or three people bent on not having any thing objective said about Mao, spent some time providing valid sources, the article could have become encyclopedic. Hardyplants (talk) 18:47, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

No one is arguing that the great leap forward wasn't a disaster. You are missing the point, and no, no historian agrees with damn near any of Changs writings. One, your just talking about the great leap forward and the "TOTAL DEATH NUMBER, GASP", two, you listing sources, maybe you should learn sources as well. None of those books are going to say "Everything Mao did is a direct representation of Maoist theory". Whats your point? I love when this turns into a debate that did not exist a minute before. A lot of people died while Mao was in power, we get it, everyone knows. We are debating about what is and is not theory, not if the great leap and Mao's policy was a disaster or not, though last time I checked, when Mao died majority of Chinese were much much better of in literacy, GDP, and living standards, but like I said, thats another argument. (Majin Takeru (talk) 13:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC))

I would only raise two points about your post and i will set the other issues aside so this does not become long and drawn out:

• You still have not given me any sources that I can check that support your arguments, I am becomeing inclined to dismiss them an arguments from a biased ideolog.
• What IS Maoist theory then? what effects did it have on the Chinese people, since no one can come up any meaningful explanation? Hardyplants (talk) 21:32, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Have not given you sources? On what? Historians and other disagreeing with Chang? Go look for Philip Short (Mao: A life) and Li Zhishi (The Private life of Chairman Mao, this account differs greatly from Chang's, and this man was actually there next to Mao, not out thumping people with little red books) there is two easy ones. Speaking of little red books, lets go to sources for Maoism, Quotations of Chairman Mao (AKA the little red book) would be a damn good start on Maoist Theory. Or you could read Maos On Guerilla Warfare. Next you can check writings of other prominent Maoists, such as Prachanda, leader of the Communist Party of Nepal. These aren't subjects and sources anyone who seriously studies modern China or Mao, or Maoism needs to look for or ask for. Since you are debating it, excuse me for assuming you know a little more about the subjects. (Majin Takeru (talk) 19:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC))