Talk:Taoism

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I Ching

I was happier with the previous reference to the I Ching in the Origins section. For one thing, it was briefer, allowing anyone who wants to know more to follow the link to the excellent article on the I Ching. Another problem I have is with part of the wording. The transitional states are usually referred to as the eight trigrams which combine to form the hexagrams; not the hexagrams themselves. Sunray July 6, 2005 02:23 (UTC)

I'm not happy either with the current text. What do you think about something like

One of the most important core of Chinese thought is the I Ching, a "cycle matrix" composed of sixty-four hexagrams. With a simple combination of six Yin or Yang lines, this system depicts the variety of the possibilities of the universe, and their relations. As 阴一阳之谓道 [isn't there a 一 in the begining of the sentence?] explains it well, the alternance of polar qualities (Yin-Yang is creative-receptive, sunny-shady, male-female, heaven-earth, and so forth), giving life to all beings, is the Tao itself. As for the I Ching, Taoism main questionnings are rooted on those observations of cyclic changes and searches for a way to live a "good life" in this everchanging world.

I'm not sure to fully agree with you on the problem of the trigrams in the I Ching. I read sometime that they were invented after the hexagrams (sound weird, but...) and were added to the I Ching later, in order to mnemonically help to "find" an hexagram in the list (a little bit like the "keys" of the Chinese characters, maybe). However, Trigrams have prominent importance in Chinese thought, as well as in Taoism, and the debate is not whether to include them or not, but where : I may suggest to write about trigrams together with five elements and resonnance theory. Thoughts ? gbog 6 July 2005 06:31 (UTC)

Perhaps you are a modernist and believe that the hexagrams came first? :-) No matter, certainly the I Ching was a "work in progress" that went on over centuries. However, the classical interpretation is that the trigrams date from the earliest period—the time of Fu Hsi, when he read the lines inscribed on the back of a tortoise and described the bā gùa, the arangement of the eight trigrams. Then in the Shang Dynasty, King Wen organized the I Ching into the framework of hexagrams as we now know it and the Duke of Chou added the commentaries on each of the lines. Later, during the Zhou dynasty, Confucius is thought to have added his commentaries. While modernists dispute the influence of Fu Hsi and Confucius, it seems to me that each of the components are essential to the I Ching from a Taoist perspective (because Taoism was influenced by the classical form of the I Ching over the centuries). The trigrams are related to familial relations, cosmic phenomena, and the eight directions. The trigrams thus play a key role in the transitional state. Here's how Wilhelm describes their role:

These eight trigrams were conceived as images of all that happens in heaven and on earth. At the same time, they were held to be in a state of continual transition, one changing into another, just as transition from one phenomenon to another is continually taking place in the physical world. Here we have the fundamental concept of the Book of Changes. The eight trigrams are symbols standing for changing transitional states; they are images that are constantly undergoing change..

Practically speaking, it is hard for a mere human to hold sixty-four images in mind. Eight elements is relatively easy. Sunray July 6, 2005 15:49 (UTC)

After checking various versions of the I Ching, including Wilhelm and Huang, I think that the trigrams are essential to a Taoist reading of the I Ching. I have thus revised the paragraph to include the role of trigrams. I hope it is faithful to what you wanted to say, while elaborating on that one aspect. Sunray July 9, 2005 19:21 (UTC)

Seems ok to me. Just this : apparently the quote is 一阴一阳之谓道 (missing first 一 in the article) gbog 03:52, 10 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If I understand you correctly, you are saying the Chinese characters should go first. I had thought that the translation was what was important, since we are writing for the English Wikipedia. The Chinese characters are nice to have, but only as a parenthesis, I think. Sunray 07:27, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Hi! That was not my point : I think there is a mistake in the quotation (first char missing). I'll fix it anyway. BTW I've check some books on I Ching and the hypothesis of trigrams being invented after hexagram is not as supported as I said. gbog 14:08, 14 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Looked at I hing part, I feel it is somewhat unrelated to taoism in its wording and may be shortened. gbog 14:56, 14 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, on re-reading that section, I think that it gets too much into details about the I Ching and not enough about the relation to, and importance of, the I Ching for Daoism. I will work on shortening it and making it more relevant to the heading (i.e., the Origins of Daoism). Sunray 14:41, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

I've added a connection to Lao Zi and will expand the section somewhat before editing it down. Sunray 06:35, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

Taoism as Religion

A basic history of Taoism can be found online in my Beginner's Guide to Daoism that is excerpted from my book Daoism: A Short Introduction (Oxford: OneWorld 2003)

A very nice summary, James. Do you have any thoughts on pre-Lao Zi influences? Sunray 15:04, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Also, there is a succint guide to Tao Te Ching / Daode Jing / Laozi

Nothingness is better than emptiness

The reasons:

1. The character in the original text(無)means nothing.

2. Meaning of the character in Taoism's context is definitely more than a completely empty vacuum.

3. Usefulness of uselessness is also one of the essentials in Zhuangzi. The word nothingness can provide this sense too.

4. Let's check the meaning of empty: "1. containing nothing...3. foolish, meaningless, vacuous" (The Oxford Reference Dictionary) "1. with nothing in it...without substance...totally without...without foundation...silly , without seriousness." (Webster's Dictionary)

These mean there could be mud-throwing intentions in English translations.

Nothingness can provide some kinda impartiality in the translation.

5. Try google taoism nothingness and u can get loads of my supporters. These are just a few of them:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/sbe40/sbe4019.htm

http://www.taoistarts.net/main2.html

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/2883/main.html

http://www.the-professor-mon.com/

I shall make the changes if there is no further argument in one week.

--ETTan 03:55, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You have my full support on this change. Ajnewbold 01:35, 21 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The change from "emptiness" to "nothingness" was made by ETTan, per his comments, above, and reverted twice—once by Gbog and once by Fabartus. Yet they did not see fit to discuss their reasons for the reverts here. What gives? ETTan's approach was reasonable. Gbog/Fabartus, please explain your reasons for the reverts. Sunray 06:52, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

The discussion on this is in Talk:Tao Te Ching. One of my post is either mixed in a mess, or wasn't sent to database. My main point is : we shall follow the common usage in sinological litterature for translating Wu. No translations are perfect. I guess we could also translate it as "vacuity", or even "Being" in existencial meaning, but this should be the topic of a paragraph or an article and we should continue elsewhere to use what is used by famous translators (Waley, Legge, Graham, ...) BTW ETTan seems to be a sockpuppet and did revert without explanations. gbog 13:17, 30 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty new in Wiki. There are only 2 articles I'd commented about: Taoism and Tao Te Ching as I'd already working on these 2 topics for years. For me, its kind of weird to translate the chinese character 無 , which means nothing, as empty. This is the main reason that I insist on the changes. Besides, I also provide other reasons, which are established knowledge among taoist scholars, in my discussions. Hopefully, you are not taking grudge against all chinese just because of some bad examples. Please read my comments properly and consult some real experts, who have to know classical chinese, if possible. Or, u can try to persuade all publishers of Chinese-English dictionaries to add empty as one of the meanings for the character Wu 無 .

--ETTan 16:07, 30 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have informed ETTan regarding the ugly slander regarding him. Comments like:

"In sum, reasoned, logical arguements aren't going to budge him, you'll also need allies. I'm going inactive for a while, so if you get into further revert situations with this suspected socket puppet, get a hold of Mel"

are never appropriate. Talk pages are to discuss articles, not other editors. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 13:59, 30 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This comment itself is ruled out by your stricture; it belongs on Tan's Talk page, not here.
When I get a moment, I'll collect some examples of you commenting on other editors on artcile Talk page. Or is this rule only for other people (as so many of your rules are)?
When an editor's behaviour (especially sock-puppetry) is relevant to an article, then it's usual practice to discuss it on the Talk page. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητη&sigmaf;) 09:25, 31 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clarification on why you didn't comment here before now, Gbog. It seems to me that nothingness and emptiness are both important in Taoism. It has been said that the Tao teaches both. Thus, it should not be difficult to edit this to meet all the issues expressed above. Here's the sentence from the article before reverts:

<blockquote>Action through inaction (wei wu wei), the power of emptiness, detachment, receptiveness, spontaneity, the strength of softness, the relativism of human values and the search for a long life, are some of its [i.e., Taoism's] preferred themes.</blockquote>

The sentence describes the preferred themes of Taoism. My reading of this sentence is that the word "emptiness" thus does not modify wei wu wei, but rather is another theme. Surely, the power of emptiness is an important theme of Taoism. In English, emptiness means a structure is there but void (e.g. "empty hand" in martial arts, "no mind" in Zen). Nothingness means "there is not anything, not a single thing or not a part of a thing".

It seems clear to me that the original sentence is fine. So I will reinstate that. If someone still has a problem with it, let's continue to discuss it here rather than get into a revert war. However, it could, perhaps, be improved. Also, I would recommend that we assume good faith and treat people in accordance with their actions, rather than an assumed (or even actual) past. Sunray 19:31, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

One further note: There was a second change of the word "emptiness" to "nothingness" (last sentence in the second para of the Tao of Taoism section). Here also, I have gone back to "emptiness." This is not about the translation of a particular character, it is about the ontology of Taoism. We may need to discuss this further. Sunray 19:48, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough. Let's check the meaning of empty: "1. containing nothing...3. foolish, meaningless, vacuous" (The Oxford Reference Dictionary) "1. with nothing in it...without substance...totally without...without foundation...silly , without seriousness." (Webster's Dictionary)

These mean there could be mud-throwing intentions in English translations. So, besides those 3 reasons I mentioned above, I'd like to add that "nothingness" can provide some kinda impartiality in the translation. Thus, I'll revert the text again until u can show me more and better reasons.

Taoism is pragmatism of its own kind with emphasis on the usefulness of uselessness, moderated naturalism, wholistic health, political liberalism etc. Therefore, it is contrasted with ontology which presumes essence's total explicability in language. Taoism is de-ontological rather than ontological.

There're 3 domains of human values: absolutely absolute, relatively absolute/relatively relative and absolutely relative. It's the absolutely absolute truth that taoism has rejected its possibility of containing in human language.

Finally, please don't imply that I could be another avatar. This is the one and only account I have here. I shall issue a complain against whoever bring this implication again.--ETTan 03:01, 31 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I partly answered to this in Talk:Tao Te Ching. I guess we should hold this discussion in only one place, for clarity isn't the main quality of Taoism and subsequent discussions on Taoism. gbog 06:08, 31 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

When you quote a dictionary, it is perhaps advisable to determine which of the meanings corresponds to the usage in question. In this case, the intended meaning is the first definition of the Oxford Reference Dictionary, i.e., "containing nothing." The other meanings simply don't apply.

Here's something to consider: <blockquote>Emptiness might be the most important term for the study of the philosophical Taoism. The idea of emptiness can be traced back in ancient China, since it was already present in the Book of Changes. It is generally acknowledged that this book had a decisive influence on the main philosophical schools of the Warring States period (5th-3rd centuries BC)

The notion of emptiness gets a major significance in the writings of the Taoist masters Lao-tzu and Chuang-tzu who place it in the center of their outlook.[1]</blockquote>

ETTan, we do not yet have consensus on this. The majority (let alone the two thirds majority required by the guideline on consensus) has not accepted your view. I'm concerned that you would change it back to your preferred meaning before we have reached consensus. Sunray 06:25, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

On the page u quoted above, there is also a link to Huineng(a zen buddhist patriarch) about emptiness which shows that there is a failure to distingush the character Kong(空), which means empty, and Wu(無) which means nothing.

It's worth mentioning again that ETTan has been making the same changes at Tao Te Ching, against similar opposition. It may be that those who have reverted his changes here have done so on the basis of the arguments there, and didn't want to repeat themselves. Sunray is right that, while Tan is insisting on a dictionary definition (from what kind of dictionary I don't know — I've asked on the other Talk page, but he hasn't replied), other editors are concerned with the philosophical meaning in the context of the article. Unfortunately, Tan refuses to engage with that argument, insisting on the narrow linguistic point, and repeatedly reverting to his changes.

The claim that "nothingness" means more than "emptiness" is confusing; it's different, but if anything it refers to less.

On the matter of the identification of him with Mr Tan (talk · contribs): he started editing on the day that Mr Tan stopped (Mr Tan had started on the day that Chan Han Xiang (talk · contribs) had stopped; in both case it came after a unanimously critical RfC on them, in both cases it involved an abandonment of the set of articles edited and a switch to a new set. They all have similar approaches to editing (leaving aside questions of naming). That they're the same people is a natural conclusion. I've said elsewhere that if I'm proved wrong, I'll happily apologise; until then, I'll go with the evidence. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητη&sigmaf;) 09:25, 31 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

(I copy here my latest comment at Talk:Tao Te Ching:

To ETTan:

The English-dictionary reference doesn't apply; the word is being used in its main meaning, and no-one would (except with deliberate malevolence) read it as meaning anything else in this context. When I say that my coffee cup is empty, or refer to the empty set in maths, I'm not implying anything about foolishness.
"Deontological" means "concerned with or based on duty".
I asked about the kind of Chinese-English dictionary you used: modern or ancient? Ordinary or philosophical? You haven't replied. There are many terms which have very different definitions in an ordinary Engl;ish dictionary and in a philosophical dictionary, and I'd be very surprised if the same weren't true of Chinese.
Speculation about someone having had another account isn't prohibited; it's not even in itself negative as there's nothing against changing accounts in Wikipedia policy, nor in hiding the fact that one has done it). If someone has changed account, though, it can be useful for other editors to know and discuss it, as it can explain an editor's approach, and throw light on her methods. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητη&sigmaf;) 09:35, 31 July 2005 (UTC))[reply]

All of them. So far I never come across any chinese-english dictionary that use empty as meaning of Wu.

I use the word de-ontological in its philosophical sense, not deontology.

Is that so? Then I can also speculate that Mr Tan (talk • contribs) is your own creation to throw mud at someone to whom u have take grudge against. I already see that u'll never agree what I said. I'll treat these as word games that will end nowhere. Chit-chat with me whenever u r lonely. U r welcome.--ETTan 13:28, 31 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You still have not addressed my comment, above, that the sentence [in the "Overview" section] describes the preferred themes of Taoism. My reading of this sentence is that the word "emptiness" thus does not modify wei wu wei, but rather is another theme. Since emptiness is a major theme of Taoism, it certainly belongs in the list. We can talk about adding "nothingness" if you like. Sunray 15:17, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

The proper translation for "wei wu wei" should be "act in nothingness" which, in contemporary sense, could means managerially rather delegate powers efficaciously than doing everything by oneself. "Act in emptiness" would be improper in this sense.

Due to misleading translations of the past, I'd prefer to replace the word "emptiness" with "nothingness" and add those taoistic pragmatism features mentioned above as the prefered themes. These means the whole text would need a major change for those new themes. Some people may not like these to happen. --ETTan 16:37, 31 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I must repeat what I said before: In this case, the "power of emptiness" does not refer to "wei wu wei." They are both items in a list of important themes of Taoism. Sunray 17:43, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

Oh yes, "wei wu wei" can be part the power of nothingness. It's its efficacy that release the power. For "The Power of Nothingness", please refer to these sites and find the text regarding The Power of Nothingness:

http://www.abintrabooks.com/cgi-bin/abb455/4753.html

http://www.saxakali.com/COLOR_ASP/discoverof0.htm

http://www.hatem.com/mind.htm

http://www.avramdavidson.org/wetering.htm

--ETTan 03:20, 1 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The word "deontological" has only one philosophical sense; there's no word "de-ontological".

For Web references, you might look at: [2], [3], [4]

I've seen "wu-i-wu" translated as nothingness, as opposed to "wu", emptiness.

The nearest I can find (in literature concerning Taoism) to a translation of wu as "nothingness is in Charles Wi-hsun Fu;s "Daoism in Chinese Philosophy", in which he refers to wu as "No-thingness", emphasising that it's not merely "nothingness". --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητη&sigmaf;) 17:53, 31 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I should add this site, which also explictly states that "wu" is not synonymous with nothingness. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητη&sigmaf;) 17:56, 31 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

So tell me the other way to express "de-ontological" in its philosophical that I want to express.

I've no idea what you mean by it, so can't help. Could you explain? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητη&sigmaf;) 11:10, 1 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As I told u b4, the using of emptiness in taoist text is a mis-interpretation of the past. Try google taoism nothingness and u can get loads of my supporter. These are just a few of them:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/sbe40/sbe4019.htm

http://www.taoistarts.net/main2.html

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/2883/main.html

http://www.the-professor-mon.com/

And I've given an even longer list of sources that either use "emptiness" or specifically reject the use of "nothingness". --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητη&sigmaf;) 11:10, 1 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Congratution! u've finally manage to persuade someone to add your lines into the site. But the more authentic way should be:

1. Find someone who knows chinese character.

2. Ask him/her to check each and every chinese-english dictionaries, copy down the bibliographies.

3. Send letters to those publishers.

4. Wait for the results.

I don't know what this means. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητη&sigmaf;) 11:10, 1 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Good luck! --ETTan 02:49, 1 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Tao of Pooh

A real minor thing in a very good article, but does The Tao of Pooh really count as an example of the over-use of the word "Tao" in Western culture, since it's a book actually about Taoism? Perhaps another example could be found and used instead.

Sorting out the mess

I've been watching and thinking about this article on and off over the past couple of months, but haven't made any edits because I believe it needs a much bigger work-over than I have had time to give it. The fundamental problem is that the article fails to do justice to the fact that "Taoism" can mean radically different things in different contexts. Partly this is a translation problem, in that English uses a single word to translate both daojiao and daojia; more fundamentally, there is the conceptual problem that daojiao has generally been viewed in the West as simply a degraded version of the philosophical truths of the daojia. This makes any serious understanding of daojiao almost impossible, just as much as it would be impossible to understand the history of Christianity if we were to view it as a series of misunderstandings and perversions of the 'true meaning' of the Bible.

It is unacceptable that the discussions of daojiao and daojia are amalgamated into a single article just because the English word "taoism" can be used to mean either. I would suggest splitting the article into two, with headwords along the lines of "Taoism (religion)" (=daojiao) and "Taoism (philosophy)" (=daojia), with appropriate cross-references at the head of each article. "Taoism" itself would probably be best either redirecting to "Taoism (religion)" or as a disambiguation page, with enough information to let (potentially naive) users work out which one they want to look up.

A comparison with the Wikipedia treatments in other languages suggests possible ways forward:

The Chinese and Japanese versions linked from this article both have daojiao/doukyou as headword.
- The Chinese introduction to daojiao explicitly describes daojiao as having developed from philosophical foundations in daojia by incorporation of popular religious beliefs about immortals, magical techniques, ghosts, spirits and divination.
- The Chinese article on daojia gives a traditionalist account of the development of philosophical taoism; the information is useful but the article fails to point out the questionable nature of much of this material. It ends with a brief reference (and a link) to the development of daojiao.
- Entering douka (daojia) in the Japanese Wikipedia gives a redirect to Rou-Sou Shisou (Lao-Zhuang Sixiang), which has by far the most historically sophisticated discussion of daojia. It ends with a paragraph that discusses the (seemingly) stark contrasts between Taoist religion and the ideas of Lao-Zhuang. If anyone is willing to translate the Japanese article on douka into English, it would provide an excellent starting point for the proposed English article "Taoism (philosophy)".
The French article "Taoisme" seems to suffer from some of the same problems as the English, especially in its overemphasis on Lao-Zhuang, despite giving daojiao as the Chinese for "Taoisme". On the other hand, it seems to have had suffered less from editors wishing to promote their own interpretations of "Taoist" concepts.
The German article "Daoismus" gives a fairly balanced account of both Taoist religion and Taoist philosophy. It also contains an odd little paragraph decrying the 'eurocentric' dichotomy between religion and philosophy; I would argue that this is inappropriate here, since daojia and daojiao are quite distinct concepts in Chinese historiography of religion from a very early date (I can't say exactly, but certainly pre-Tang). Aside from this, the article contains much useful material that could be incorporated by a willing translator.

I've put all this on the talk page since the changes I'm proposing are fairly major, and writing the two separate articles will require a lot of work - I'd be happy if someone else would be willing to get this rolling! As it stands, the article doesn't do much credit to Wikipedia's ability to produce a coherent account of a fundamental topic. Trampolineboy 22:18, 31 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This problem has already been discussed, see archived talk. I don't know much about Taoist religion, for my domain of interest focuses more on thought streams. A (weak) part of article has been moved to Taoist Doctrine and its name could be changed to Taoism (religion). I don't oppose a split because popular Taoist pratices have a long history and deserves an article (even "sexual Taoist practices" deserves one, I'd say), but I do agree with those germans saying that our "religion" and "philosophy" categories don't help much, to say the less, to understand Chinese (Asian) realities of the past and the present. I do often use "practices" and "thought" (following some sinologist I like to read) instead but failed to impose those "categories" here. gbog 05:03, 1 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that - somehow I had missed that discussion. I don't entirely agree with everything that was said there, but I can see the point of having a single article on "Taoism", despite the multitude of meanings that this word can have. The article as it is doesn't really do justice to this range of meanings, but the issue isn't really one of organisation, it's more that the material on Taoist religion is essentially absent. For the moment I'll concentrate on getting the material onto the page, and leave any restructuring as a possibility for later. Trampolineboy 11:21, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

new edits

Tan is still insisting on going against consensus by changing "emptiness" to nothingness"; he's also changing good English to poor, and clear terms to anachronistic unclear ones (all actions, incidentally, that were typical of Mr Tan...). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητη&sigmaf;) 11:06, 1 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I dropped a nice note on ETTAN, only to visit here and see all the folderal kicked up above... just like the oh sooooo typical behaviors we've seen as characteristic of Mr Tan, apparently here made by an unrelated ETTAN. Well, I used to believe in the tooth fairy too.
This struck me as quite TANISH: "As I told u b4, the using of emptiness in taoist text is a mis-interpretation of the past. Try google taoism nothingness and u can get loads of my supporter. These are just a few of them: "...

) mis-interpretation of the past (Mr Tan was big on misinterpretation or deliberate misconstrual by some mysterious Machiavellian plots by hundreds of unrelated yet conspiratorial acedemics duplicating one anothers works by government edict... etc.
) The overreliance on googling as if that proves anything
) especially the mis-references to the root word 'support' where he can't quite seem to find the right word, especially when he gets excited.
) The tendancy to duck direct questions and request for proofs of acceptable nature.

In any event, after seeing the explosion of verbosity above, immbedded in a poor presentation... I figure I wasted my time writing to ETTAN a while back — like I wasted much of June on Mr Tan.
And to SamSpade, my post was to a persons talk page, not an article talk page. How it got moved here can be investigated, so check the history if you have the time. I just think it fair to warn people that if this is the same Tan we have so many verbose talk pages and edit war experience with (as mediators, not participants, per se), people deserve to know he's looking for the arguement — has said so directly to me on my talk — and has not the least interest in consensus unless it agrees with his POV based on my observations. Fra nkB 05:14, 2 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the debate is rotten from the beginning, i suppose. ETTAN is talking about the word "wu", that is a "grammatical particle" (i.e. with no meaning, Chinese say "empty words") and the "emptiness" in Taoism and Tao Te Ching articles refers to a Taoist idea, the very one of the power of the pot, the wheel hub, the door, all those things being useful because they have empty parts. The valley/vagina is the same : concavity. One scholar i like said this applies very well to Chinese paitings that are full of emptiness (whites) and have energy that flows through the whites to give life to the "blacks". Here "nothingness" is very far, as it is from Tao Te Ching. Nothingness is more related to Buddhism, I'd fancy, but I don't know a bit on this different topic. gbog 09:12, 2 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's ofte, if not usually, translated as "emptiness" in Buddhism too. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητη&sigmaf;) 11:44, 2 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Misleading the World about Taoism

A good job well done in misleading the world about taoism. However, just how right the first sentence of Tao Te Ching, these won't change a bit the working of "taoism" in real world. Actually, partially due to my bad experience in wikipedia (e.g. repressing freshies of some), I couldn't care less anymore.

Somehow, I've managed to demonstrate how a minor disagreement (eg the nothingness and emptiness debate) with one grudge-taking boy and his comrades can drag a major progress in the planning.

Time is gold. I won't be participating in this article for a period of time.

Play with yourselves, experts.

Bye.

--ETTan 16:40, 2 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Relation to Other Practices

I agree “Shabda” has a literal translation as “sound.” However, I was referring to an esoteric relationship between the terms. I’ll rework the sentence. My citation and examples are below.

RDF 21:23, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Singh, K. (1999). Naam or Word. Blaine, WA: Ruhani Satsang Books. ISBN 0942735943

Lao Tze speaks of It: The Tao that can be expressed is not the eternal Tao; The name that can be defined is not the unchanging Name.15 (p. 134)

It is a Sound Principle (Shabd) emanating from the Great Silence (Ashabd). In Chinese scriptures, it is known as Tao. Lao Tze, in the fourth century B. C., used the word Tao meaning "Road" or "Way" to denote the Hidden Principle of the Universe. (p. 137)

This Sound Principle is Jnana or the real knowledge of the Rishis of old, the Cult of Eternal Life of Zoroaster, Logos of the Greeks, Tao of the Chinese, Budhi or enlightenment of Gautama and Sphota or Sound-essence of the philosophers. (p. 143)

I don't yet see the relationship. Tao, being the way of the universe, is related to many things. I'm not sure why we would single out Shabd. Wikipedia: Sources, provides guidance on use of sources in articles. Does Singh specifically say that Shabd and Tao are one and the same? If so we should quote him. But as I said, I am not convinced that the connection between Tao and Shabd belongs here. Perhaps other authors/editors of this article could comment. Sunray 22:27, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, on page 142 above, Singh is stating "The Sound Principle [Shabda] is ... [the] Tao of the Chinese. The proposed text is a statement of fact about the usage of a term by a group. This article, like any other in Wikipedia, needs to provide an opportunity for objectively presenting a broader context of how it relates to other ideas. I believe I've clearly presented the existence of a relationship between Tao and Shabda. Consequently, the statement belongs here. I'm perfectly happy to leave it to Sunray or anyone else to create an objective section into which statements like this can be placed. RDF 04:40, 12 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I Ching never Mentioned Nothingness

Originally, I Ching / Yi4jing (易經) was a structuristic fortune-telling content for Royal family. Laozi / Daode jing / Tao Te Ching has clear criticisms of this kinda fortelling (Chapter 38). Fu2xi (伏羲) , The Emperor Zouwen2 (周文王) and many others had use its interpretations and profundity to consolidate their powers. The major distinction between I Ching / Yi4jing and Taoist texts is that it never mentioned the notion of nothingness which is a primary theme of Taoism / Daoism. In the Spring-Autumn period, Confucius / Kong2zi3 compiled the Ten Wings (十翼). Later, with other authors' efforts, we have the Confucian-flavoured Yi4zuan4 (易傳) as it is nowaday. As regarding the idea of Wu2ji2 (無極--endless nothingness), we have to wait until Zhoudunyu2(周敦頤) introducing the idea into neo-confucianism or Li3xue2(理學) of Song Dynasty in his book called Tai4ji2tu2suo (太極圖說). However, the cosmology of the neo-confucianism is a romantic one, whereas the cosmology of taoism is non-romantic and romanticism in taoist social life should not go beyond natural/sustainable pragmatism and wholistic health. The issues of yingyang dialectics are relevant only to haveness, De / Te that are secondary (only a few sentences in Laozi and Zhuangzi mentioned it) compare to nothingness of Tao / Dao and other propositions. The improper association of I Ching and Taoism is a common mistake made by those who are keen on seeking a unified ontology for the so-called "chinese philosophy".

--ETTan 04:27, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that anyone has claimed that the I Ching was a "Taoist" text. Certainly that claim is not made in the article. The I Ching preceeded the Tao Te Ching, but was also added to after Laozi's time. However, it is clear that the I Ching influenced, and was influenced by, both Taoism and Confucianism. It is true that the I Ching does not mention nothingness, but many Taoist symbols and influences are evident in its text. To regard the I Ching as simply a form of divination would be to undervalue its import. Sunray 15:48, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Chinese classics and supplementations after Qin Dynasty were eclectic rather than puristic. The word "Originally" was used in the very beginning of my propositions above. Whoever had read the current version of I Ching would not dare to oversimplify its signifance.

--ETTan 11:00, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Repressive slanders gone disregarded

They are the one who issisted on reverting my changes unreasonably. I've warned them many times b4 I issued complaints, but those slanders still here.

"# You started editing on the day that Mr Tan (talk • contribs) stopped (and he started the day that Chan Han Xiang (talk • contribs) stopped).

Your attitude to other editors is the same — the same poor attitude to consensus and collaboration, the same insistence on making reverts against consensus, the same (pointless) tactic of pretending that, if people don't reply to the latest reptition of the same point, then they agree with you, etc.

Tan is still insisting on going against consensus by changing "emptiness" to nothingness"; he's also changing good English to poor, and clear terms to anachronistic unclear ones (all actions, incidentally, that were typical of Mr Tan...). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:06, 1 August 2005 (UTC)"

"Admin User: Mel Etitis, whom I see you are already acquainted with has posted the suspicion (on my talk) that User:Mr Tan MAY BE User:ETTan, whom you are 'debating' on Chinese Culture and Philosophy in at least a couple of articles. If so, you might want to take a long look at for what you may be up against by reading archieved talks (archieve4 will be enough) on Talk:Tsushima Island and RfC on Mr Tans problems with other editors. In sum, reasoned, logical arguements aren't going to budge him, you'll also need allies. I'm going inactive for a while, so if you get into further revert situations with this suspected socket puppet, get a hold of Mel. I re-reverted the emptiness/nothingness change he last made in 'Taoism' (???), but you will want to keep an eye on your watch list. Best Wishes! FrankB 04:52, 30 July 2005 (UTC)"

--ETTan 06:03, 2 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Why are you suddenly resurrecting comments made over a month ago? And what do you think that "repressive" means? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητη&sigmaf;) 10:06, 2 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

ETTan: I think that Mel has indicated that he is standing by his words. If you dispute what he has said, there are mechanisms in Wikipedia policy to deal with that (see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution). Sunray 15:52, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

I'd done most of the steps but those libels are still there.

--ETTan 17:12, 4 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If you have followed the steps and the ArbCom directs their removal, the comments will be removed. In the meantime, you have the right to refute them. Sunray 20:10, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

In what sense is it libel to express the suspicion that one account is being used by the same person as another account? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητη&sigmaf;) 20:54, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Taoism is not metaphysics

The style of expressions and reasonings in taoist classics has not much like those of western metaphysics. Furthermore, the very basic presumption of metaphiscs is that full description of ontology is possible in words. Whereas, taoism has rejected this possibility.

--ETTan 17:09, 4 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Your claim about Taoism is controversial.
Your claim about Western metaphysics is false. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητη&sigmaf;) 20:52, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

My claims regarding taoism are facts based on years of original text reading. And, please don't make any assertions without proof.

--ETTan 08:45, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

ETTan's comments are typical Western-centered POV. Metaphysics aren't just text descriptions; what ETTan pointed out was only the form they were expressed in the Western culture. One should never judge another culture with standards in your own culture. -- G.S.K.Lee 22:58, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Really, did metaphysics exist in pre-historic era when language didn't exist? This is just an academy discussion. Academy world shan't be eroded by faith crisis in culture,superstition (faith without reasoning) or orientalism. Unfortunately, some people just love to bring out emotional issues. Yes, I love Elton John! I love Lionel Richie! Any problem?

--ETTan 08:32, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Taoist philosophy or religion?

Can anyone please explain to me what the Taoist philosophy has in common with the Taoist religion? If not, then why are people confusing the two and placing them on the same page?

Stan, Oct 12, 2005

There has been extensive discussion of this matter (see "Sorting out the mess" above and the archives (link also above). The simplist explanation I can muster is this: This is an encyclopedia. Most people who come to this article will just enter "Taoism", whether they are interested in the philosophy or the religion. They can then find out more about the debate by reading Taoism: A philosophy or a religion? and more about Taoist religious practice by reading the article on Taoist doctrine. Sunray 06:09, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Taoism and Confucianism

I actually meant to use "me" instead of "one person" to indicate selfishness. Please try to understand the meaning behind words before using mechanical substitution.

Thanks.

I try never to make mechanical substitutions and I always try to understand the meaning behind words. If you look at the top of this page you will note that this article is a "former featured article candidate." One of the reasons why it failed was that it used the (unencyclopedic) personal pronoun form (I/me) instead of the impersonal form (one).

Most of your changes are an improvement. However, you did change one of the uses back to the first person singular. Would you be able to fix this as you have with the others?

BTW if you are doing some serious editing, there are distinct advantages to having a user name (it can be anonymous or not as you please). In fact, there can be greater anonymity with a user name as your IP address will not be displayed. It is an advantage in discussions on the talk pages as you can sign by typing four tildes, thus: <nowiki>Phinnaeus • T+Σ 02:37, 25 October 2005 (UTC)</nowiki>. The wiki automatically adds your user name and the date of your entry. Sunray 05:56, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Characterising Confucianism vis a vis Taoism

Mel Etitis has removed a passage from the article and replaced it with the following hidden edit note:

"<nowiki><!--</nowiki>This seems to misrepresent Confucian beliefs (to a startling degree):

Many Taoist writers do not share the Confucian belief in hierarchical social structures, courtly music, and ceremonies as a way to build a better world.<nowiki>--></nowiki>"

I tend to agree with him that the statement is problematic and am not sure it meets NPOV standards. However, it does seem to be technically correct, which is why I had attempted to begin to edit, rather than remove, it. Confucian ethics do tend to foster hierarchical social structures and social forms such as courtly music and ceremonies. Nevertheless, it seems to have a somewhat critical tone and is, of course, a convenient shorthand. This tone, no doubt, reflects how many Taoists regard Confucian ethics. The problem with taking the sentence out (and not replacing it) is that without it, the section is no longer a discussion about Taoism and Confucianism (since it is virtually the only statement about the latter in the paragraph).

The questions I think we need to consider are the following:

Do we need a section on Taoism and Confucianism?
If we agree that such a section would be useful, how could we characterise the differences between these two, great systems of thought in a paragraph or two?
How should we proceed with this?

As is often the case with NPOV issues, it might be helpful to have a quote from a reputable scholarly source as an anchor for this discussion. Sunray 19:21, 16 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

1) Do we need a section on Taoism and Confucianism?

I think that this section is very useful because if you read Chuang Tze, you will find that most of his work is a criticism of Confucius and his doctrines. In many ways, Taoism defines itself as not being Confucianism! It is unimaginable to me to talk about Taoism without any regard to Confucionism. It is like talking about white without any regard to black.

2) If we agree that such a section would be useful, how could we characterise the differences between these two, great systems of thought in a paragraph or two?

Why just devote a paragraph or two? Comparisons between the two are at the heart of Taoism!

--PiKeeper 02:29, 17 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You commented out "Many Taoist writers do not share the Confucian belief in hierarchical social structures, courtly music, and ceremonies as a way to build a better world." Please read "The Complete Works of Chuang Tzu", translated by Burton Watson, and tell me that as a Taoist writer Chuang Tzu shares this Confucian belief. If you don't have time for the whole book, please read chapter twenty-nine entitled "Robber Chih" and tell me if you have any doubt remaining about what I wrote. I am not arguing whether Taoists misunderstood Confucius or not in the manner that you've described. All I'm arguing is that this is a Taoist interpretation of Confucian beliefs, it is an important part of Taoist thought, and as such it should stay.

--PiKeeper 02:43, 17 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, why do you think that Taoist writers misrepresent Confucian beliefs rather than simply opposing them?

--PiKeeper 02:51, 17 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"All I'm arguing is that this is a Taoist interpretation of Confucian beliefs, it is an important part of Taoist thought, and as such it should stay." I've no problem with that; what the article said, however, was not that this is how certain writers interpreted Confucianism — it presented this as an accurate account of Confucianism, and said that Taoist writers disagreed with it. The biggest problem with it is: "as a way to build a better world", of course, though it also over-generalises (even if Confucius could be said to have held something of the sort (if less naive), that's not true of all Confucians. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:05, 17 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If you look at the history of this section, you will find that Taoist view has been missrepresented earlier, in the same sentence. The fragment of the sentence was this: "many Taoist writers do not share the Confucian belief in civilization as a way to build a better world." I simply expanded on the "civilization" part to explain what it is that they really protested. Nobody seemed to complain about that one. Why would Taoists be against civilization? I simply corrected what they were against. As far as naivite of Confucians - that is the lightest remark that Zuangzi could have written. I believe that hypocrites and kisser ups would be the way he would characterise them! Furthermore, many Chinese looking at their country's history and seeing the effect that Confucianism had on it would not disagree with that characterization. My personal opinion, is that Confucianism serves only the masters. Everyone else has to figure out how to fit into that obedience pyramid. --PiKeeper 00:51, 18 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The changes made by 192.250.34.161 to this section are an improvement, IMO. S/he changed the offending sentence to read: Taoist writers, such as Zhuangzi, argue that Confucian belief in hierarchical social structures, courtly music, and ceremonies is not a way to reform or improve the world. Sunray 20:41, 18 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The deleted parts are all archived--see "history." Anything in particular that you miss?

I don't see any harm in putting the two strains together. Christopher Schipper (The Taoist Body, which I highly recommend) thinks that Laozi can ONLY be understood through the Taoist religion.

A basic problem is that "Taoism" is not just one thing. You can't say "Taoism says..." without projecting your own beliefs. There is no such thing as "Taoism", that can say things--there are only Taoist people, scriptures, and so on. If you believe Laozi is normative, for instance, how did you decide that? (Is there a Taoist church somewhere that promotes the idea?) And how to decide what Laozi means? (Even "philosophical Taoism" did not agree on that.)

Another basic problem is, Taoism comes out of a particular cultural context, which outsider's often just don't get. (Including me!) Someone who reads Laozi and Zhuangzi and then goes to a Taoist temple, will be absolutely unprepared for what he is likely to find there. Even our academic commentarial traditions are different, though converging I think.

I'm going to post something on Taorestore.org inviting them to come edit. They've got some pretty knowledgeable people there. Dawud 13:55, 18 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Taoism is too wide a subject for a lone page

Part of the problem is the scope of the term and the incredible amount of time elapsed between the Daodejing and, say, some Ming dynasty taoist school, to say nothing of the totally different contexts in which the mandarin equivalents of "taoism" or "taoist" have been used.

As you know, a Chinese who prays "taoist gods" and practices "taoist rites" under the lead of a taoist priest will still never call himself a taoist - at least to a fellow Chinese- unless he is actively studying to become a priest himself. There is just no word for a mere "taoist believer" in traditional chinese religious context (maybe it's different in some overseas communities or in communist China). Taoism in traditional China is in a position vaguely similar to kabbalism in Judaism or suffism in Islam, it's an aggregation of specialized groups, not a separate religious denomination.

The diversity of Daoism goes far beyond a split between a philosophic and a religious form. Daoism as one religion developing one concept (the dao of the Daodejing) imagined by one guy (Laozi) is actually only one interpretation of the term, certainly the most prestigious and the most advertised, but not the only one, and not even the primordial meaning. Don't get fooled by the Laozi claim, contrarily to Buddhism or abrahamic religions, Daoism did not evolved from a single group of believers united in a single doctrine. Actually, I find the Tao of Poo and the Tao of physics very much in sync with an usage of the word which has existed in China since the very beginning : the Tao as a path proposed by a master, which can actually be any path, and does not need at all to conform with anyone's ideology, not even Laozi's. Claiming a master gives the school respectability, but the content of the teachings are your choice.

So despite the connection and common elements between all those Daoisms and Daoists, can we really discuss this all in one article? The presentation of Daoism warrants a whole section, like Buddhism, a lone page is not enough.Miuki 10:16, 12 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree--Taoism, or most spiritual traditions probably warrant an entire section. I just wanted to respond though, to something in your second paragraph:

the Tao as a path proposed by a master, which can actually be any path, and does not need at all to conform with anyone's ideology, not even Laozi's. Claiming a master gives the school respectability, but the content of the teachings are your choice.

I guess I've always interpreted Chuang-tzu and Lao-tzu (Laozi) as meaning that the Tao is beyond the content of any teaching. No one path can "contain" the truth, because the truth is limitless. It's not just choosing your beliefs, but realizing that "belief" itself must be examined. Does this make sense?--Pariah 19:56, 12 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

New Edits

Hi everybody, This is Dawud from Taiwan. I've been making some radical changes to this site in hopes of bringing it up to par, academically speaking. It will take awhile, though. Hope nobody gets upset, but the fact of the matter is that the entry as it stands is replete with misunderstandings. Peace out, --Dawud

Thank you for your efforts and Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers to Wikipedia. Please consider a few things: 1) Describe edits in the Edit Summary box above the Save Page button. 2) Consolidate or group edits to reduce the number of edits. 3) When you make massive deletions like you have, please give a more detailed accounting of your reasoning than you have above. 4) You might like to register a user ID for continuity and identity and tools like being able to place "watches" on articles. Hu 14:03, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'll second that. Also, please acquaint yourself with our neutral point of view policy. Some of your additions were mildly opinionated, and while we may report opinions (if verifiable), we shouldn't give opinions as fact in the article. --Fire Star 17:10, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

One problem with the new version is that places the role of Taoism as religious before its other roles — something which is at least debatable. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:06, 15 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, Mel. Wasn't there a move at some point to have two separate articles, one for philosophy and one for religion? (See Taoist_doctrine.) Currently, it doesn't look like the difference is really distinct enough between the two articles. I'm not an expert on this sort of thing, but it seems to me that in order to really clean things up we could go one of two ways: clean up both articles, turning one into a primarily religious one and one into a primarily philosophical one AND set up a disambiguation page on Taoism to direct people to one article or the other (the article on the philosophy would need to be renamed, in this case), or merge the two articles into Taoism but make the internal distinction between the two types clearer. I'd rather go the way of separate articles (that way there'd be less bickering over which form comes first or the weight/emphasis associated with philosophy over religion or vice-versa), but I think there'd be some protest to the disambiguation page that would be necessary to really make it work. -- Ajnewbold 18:15, 15 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, for better or worse, "Taoism" is a name which is commonly used of a certain cluster of religious movements. If you don't think it should apply to the Chinese folk religion, then will you deny it to the Quanzhen or Celestial Masters? Or to Zhang Daoling? I would say that Laozi and Zhuangzi are already "split"--they have their own entries, each of them. Without them, there's not a whole lot to philosophical Taoism, I suspect. (Or am I neglecting art?)

The problem with splitting the page is that it would almost certainly involve a good deal of overlap. Why not aim for an historically accurate account of the development of Taoism, with its philosophical and religious forms explained on the same page? I confess to having little time for the religification of Taoism (any more than for Confucianism and other rational attempts to solve genuine problems), and that's probably true in reverse for those interested in the religious side, but I don't see that that should be an obstacle to the peaceful co-editing of the article. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:42, 17 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I just had a quick overview on the new massive edits by Dawud. I hope he will discuss issues here.

At first, the article is by now much more focused on religion than before. Most of the added material seems ok to me but sometime a little vague. (i.e. which are those countries counting Chinese traditional religion as Taoïsm ? I guess its mainland China, so state it as a fact. And it's true afaik.)

China and Taiwan use that name. Singapore doesn't, as I recall.--Dawud

As the article expands, we will have to split it in parts. So keeping this in mind while editing helps to prepare this. I suppose the natural way to split is Religion/Philosophy.

But there are other spliting possibilities. In my mind, the Religion/Philosophy is not that proper. Where to write things on aesthetics, way of life, even metaphysics ? All would belong to Philosophy, imo, because a "versed in Taoism" painter from Song dynasty reading excerpts of the Zhuangzi every morning would not recognise himself in what covers Taoist religion. I see more of an Elite/Popular division. But I don't know how to phrase it.

I'm not familiar with art history. Would adding a third category help somewhere? If the problem is length, you could just add a separate page for some of the art stuff, like with fengshui and chigong etc.--Dawud

And, as we had a kind of Taoism/"Taoist practices" split, this could be enough.

About the deleted parts, I'd like to see when archived somewhere if we don't have them back.

They are archived. Click on "history". --Dawud

I know but the usage here is to cut/paste chunks of removed text in Talk pages, I've been said. It's more convenient. gbog 17:55, 18 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, sorry. I wasn't aware of that. --Dawud

and... what is "T K" ???

"To come." Used in the days before word processing. --Dawud

gbog 01:31, 18 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Aya ! We have now many section subdivided into Religious/Philosophic parts. This would fit for an article titled something like "Philosophical and religious taoism comparison", but not for "Taoism". gbog 17:59, 18 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. It gives an impression of a dichotomy that doesn't really exist in a lot of Daoists' minds. --Tydaj 12:22, 19 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It is a bit "old hat"--the current generation of Taoist researchers tends to subsume "philosophy" under "religion." However, I do think there is a substantial school of thought which is interested in Laozi / Zhuangzi, but not all this other stuff, and wouldn't want it to get lost amidst all the religious detail.--Dawud

Hey, Dawud, would you agree if me or someone else (you?) take back most of the deleted material and move most of your additions to Taoist religion ? Your edits are really useful, because we didn't have enough info about taoist religion before. But the result now is that we have a completly new article that is overbalanced on the other side ! I remember I had tried to imagine a skeleton for the main Taoism article, (see [5]) and imo that was the way to avoid the annoying Religious/Philosophical split within so many section. gbog 13:44, 22 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]