Talk:Zouave

American

The article on Zouave. I believe that some American Legion posts have worn the uniform for parades. In the Danny Kaye film "The Court Jester," a credit appeared for them for a scene involving drilling knights.71.106.207.23 20:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Popular Culture

Stop deleting this addition: "In the film The 40 Year Old Virgin the main character Andy says, while painting a toy soldier of a Zouave with the help of a magnifying glass, "And now I am going to make your silver pants blue." See the relevant article on Wikiquote." It has as much relevance as any mention of Zouaves in pop culture, and is more "pop culture" than a reference to a Buster Keaton flick from the 20s. Watch the film, he really is painting a Zouave. 99.240.139.189 (talk) 19:22, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not the person who previously deleted it, but I am doing so today. I'd refer you to Talk:Mount Rushmore/Archive 1#Appearances section for thoughts on popular culture sections. Point 1: the article on 40YOV doesn't mention zouaves; the Zig-Zag article does, and the Playhouse article probably should. Point 2: I'm skeptical that this scene in the 40YOV contributed to the notability of zoaves; Zig-Zag might be the only exposure some people have to zouave imagery, and I'm not sure about Playhouse. Point 3: Although 40YOV is probably as notable as the other examples, zouaves appear to play an exceedingly minor role in it, as compared to their use in the Zig-Zag logo and in Playhouse. So, I'd argue that the brief mention in 40YOV does not have as much relevance as the other items listed. Also, the Buster Keaton film may not be current, but it is pop culture. Finally, a quick Google search turns up 482 hits for zouave buster keaton playhouse but only 211 for zouave "40 Year Old Virgin"; if they were of equal significance I'd expect to see many more hits for the more recent movie. (FYI, I haven't seen either movie myself, I'm just basing this on the comments I see online.) cmadler (talk) 19:50, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

(1) Ok - the 40YOV Wikiquote page does mention the Zouave bit (the main article is fairly bare bones); (2) 211 hits about 40YOV and Zouave suggests that yes, the film did contribute to the notability of Zouaves. You just proved my point. Give the film another 80 years and maybe the number of online references will double. There are references to the film and the Zouave from Hobbyist/toy soldier websites and from less specialist sites. I would say that this is hands-down the most pop culture reference to a Zouave aside from Zig Zags. I am going to re-add. The real question is why someone would feel the need to delete such an innocuous and palably and demonstrably true reference. Delete the whole pop culture section if there is no relevance, or leave all proven references in pop culture in. It is, forgive me, a little silly to try and get mathematical about how many online references constitutes relevant pop culture. 99.240.139.189 (talk) 20:09, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Papal Zouaves

After the 40YOV imbroglio I thought I should contribute something that would be more widely considered of relevance to the article - I have added additional information about the Papal Zouaves. Unfortunately, information about the Papal and US Civil War Zouaves now seems to dwarf the information on the French Zouaves. Do people think it may be worthwhile to start a separate page for the Papal Zouaves? This could go into detail about how they were recruited, how foreign volunteers (especially from across the Atlantic) made their way to Rome, how they were trained, how the unit was set up administratively etc.? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.240.139.189 (talk) 03:44, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that the volume of information provided in this article is OK. The one thing that seems to be missing is the connection between the various zouave groups. If it began with the French zouaves, how did others (ACW, Papal, Polish, etc.) learn about them, and why did they imitate them? Was it just the style of dress that was imitated, or were there particular fighting techniques, elements of organization, etc. that were also part of a zouave unit? The article needs to clarify those connections a little more. cmadler (talk) 12:26, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Now, I would have to do research to provide a more formal answer but I assume the uniform made an impression on people (as perhaps did accounts of their bravery) and spread, in much the same way that French uniforms influenced international uniforms during the Napoleonic period, e.g. in Santa Anna's Mexico, or as the shako (of Hungarian origin) and kepi (of French origin) spread from country to country in the 19th century. Examples of specialised "units" that spread from country to country are hussars (Hungary) and lancers.

Sykes link

The link to Sykes doesn't lead anywhere useful.

Fixed. Hal Jespersen 15:23, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

American Zouaves

The article stated, Several Zouave Regiments were organized from American soldiers who adopted the name and the North African inspired uniforms during the American Civil War. Several implies four or five; the number of Zouave regiments was considerably higher than several. I edited accordingly.

The article also stated, The Zouave uniform was quite elaborate, to the extent of being unwieldy. For some regiments, yes, but for others, no. The 23rd (Birney), 72nd, and 95th (Gosline) Pennsylvania regiments -- all Zouaves -- had relatively simple uniforms which were rather close to the standard issue. So I edited accordingly.

The article further stated, a tight fitting short jacket without buttons. This is not correct. Some Zouave regiments had jackets without buttons but others clearly did, having what are often called "ball buttons." The three Pennsylvania Zouave regiments I referenced above all wore jackets with ball buttons. I therefore edited accordingly. David Hoag 21:05, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Should I be on there?

I was just wondering... Should a link to my user page be on there? --Zouavman Le Zouave 10:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

You should go see a shrink about your ego-issues, more like...82.176.216.87 11:36, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

References are very incomplete

There's just ONE reference, that definetely does not address the whole topic. What are the other references?

Topic coverage

I changed the assessment on point B2 ("It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain major omissions or inaccuracies.") to "no". The article lead states that "Zouave was the name given to certain infantry regiments in the French army, as well as to units in other armies which imitated the dress or drill of the French zouaves." From this it appears that the defining features of zouaves are dress and drill. However, the dress is only touched on here and there without a full explanation, and the drill is never mentioned. If these are the defining features of zouaves, then they need to be better explained in the article. If they are not the defining features of zouaves, then the lead should be changed. Cmadler (talk) 14:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The original lead sentence appears to be a dictionary definition. I have reworded it to make it clear that the article covers (i) the infantry regiments of that name serving in French North Africa between 1831 and 1962; and (ii) the units in various 19th century armies who adopted the name in imitation of the French zouaves. The latter normally wore some variation of the distinctive "oriental" uniforms made popular by the French originals but it was not some sort of obligatory defining feature. Zouave dress is covered in the article in reasonable detail, both by illustrations and text. The French zouaves followed the same drill as other French infantry - this is probably a reference to the gymnastic drill movements popularised in America by Elmer E. Ellsworth's Zouave Cadets, immediately prior to the ACW. Buistr (talk) 23:15, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification. I still suggest that if the dress is as important an element as it seems to me to be (and I'm basing that statement purely on reading the article and your comment), that some reorganization of the article to more clearly discuss it might be in order. From top to bottom, I find:

• A photo, from which I learn that as of 1888, zouave trousers were normally red, but sometimes white in summer. From the photo, I can also see that the trousers are loose-fitting/baggy, and are tucked into some kind of footwear (boots?).
• From 1854 to 1870, they became widely known for their "distinctive dress".
• They wore their "traditional colorful dress" early in World War I.
• From 1915 to 1927 they wore a plain khaki uniform.
• From 1927 to 1939, the "oriental dress" of red fez ("chechia"), blue sash, braided blue jackets with waistcoats and voluminous red trousers was reintroduced for off-duty dress and ceremonial occassions. (Was this the original "distinctive dress"? If so, perhaps it should be explained nearer the beginning of the article. You might also look for images that more clearly illustrate this; color seems to be an important element, so black & white pictures may not be best, and the color pictures don't really seem to match this written description very well.)
• White trousers of the same style had earlier been worn as an item of hot weather dress.
• The different regiments were distinguished by the colours (red, blue, white and yellow) of the "tombeaus" or false pockets on the front of their open fronted jackets.

The article is much more clear about how the "zouaves" of the USA and CSA were dressed, although the associated image seems to only illustrate the loose pantaloons and the jambieres? (No fez, turban, short buttonless jacket, or sash.) I am not trying to stir up an argument; I actually came here simply to learn what "zouave" referred to in relation to the American Civil War and my question is answered, but I think this article is still a bit unclear to someone who isn't familiar with the topic of "zouaves". Thank you. Cmadler (talk) 02:19, 27 August 2008 (UTC)