Talk:Nicholas II

Article is not impartial

the deciption of the tsar's death appears to be exxagereted. it says that the princesses were killed by the use of bayonets,but the executioners were using only pistols.

Succession box

We decided quite some time ago that Nicholas II was indeed the final tsar and there is no such thing as Michael II. I have undone the historic vandalism in the succession box. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nicholas_II_of_Russia/Archive_1#Michael_II._Protected

Please don't make these controversial edits without consensus, thank you. James5555 (talk) 06:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

"{{BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH" at the start, and is his title REALLY "Emperor and Autocrat of all the Russia's"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.44.210.162 (talk) 01:10, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Fixed and yes (but note it's "Russias", not "Russia's").—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 13:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced and incorrect

I would like to bring your attention to the fifth Paragraph of "The Final Months and Execution Section" The statement reads: "However, Leon Trotsky stated in his diary that the assassination took place on the authority of Lenin and Sverdlov."

The problem is that it is incorrect and out of context. I would like to cite: "Lenin" by David Shub, Pelican Books, 1966, republished under Penguin (latest 1977). Chapter 17, Page 359.

As stated and cited in the book: "The night following the death of the former Tsar seven other members of the Romanov family were executed in a town in the Urals. Earlier, Grand Duke Mikhail had been shot in Perm. Trotsky asked Sverdlov who had made the decision to kill the entire Royal family. 'We decided it here,' Sverdlov replied. 'Ilyich believed that we shouldn't leave the Whites a live banner to rally around...' Trotsky commented later: 'Under judicial procedures, ofcourse, execution of the family would have been impossible. The Tsar's family fell victim to the principle which constitutes the axis of monarchy: dynastic succession." The Citation is No 17 for that chapter: Trotsky's Diary in Exile, 1936, New York, 1963, pp81-2.

If one reads this paragraph without context one could assume that Lenin had a hand in the death of the Tsar and his immediate Family. However, while Lenin may be culpable and accountable for the above mentioned deaths, the problem of who gave the orders to execute the Tsar and his family now comes up.

To read the prior passages of the chapter ( Pages 357-358) To summarize:

1. After the arrival of the Royal Family at Ekaterniburg, the leaders of the local Soviet began discussing thier execution.
2. The Majority however, refused to assume responsibility without Moscow's approval.
3. The Local Bolshevik Leader Goloschokin was sent to settle the fate of the Romanovs.
4. The Central Committee debated the advisability of holding a Public Trail in Ekaterniburg, but the precarious military situation made forced this plan to be abandoned. (The Czechoslovak legion was approaching at the time)
5. Bykov one of the Ural commissars relates the killing of the Royal Family on July 16th.
6. The task of destroying the bodies is not completed until July 18th.
7. This task was carried out by a detachment of Lettish Checkists under the command of Yurovsky, a member of the Ural Soviet.
8. Bykov statement: "The Soviet power liquidated the Romanovs in an extraordinary fashion. The Soviet Power in this incident displayed its extremely democratic nature. It made no exception for the All-Russian murderer and shot him as one shoots an ordinary bandit." Page 357, Citation 15: Bykov, P. The Last days of the Romanovs, 1926 Pg114-121.
9. Official Announcement of the execution was made to the Sovnarcom on July 18th by Sverdlov, the day after Lenin received a full report by Direct Wire.
10. Sverdlov's announcement: " I wish to announce that we have received a report from Ekaterniburg, in accordance with the decision of the Regional Soviet, Nicholas has been shot. Nicholas wanted to escape. The Czechoslovaks were approaching the city. The Presidium of the Central Executive Committee has decided to approve this act." Page 358, Citation 16: Milyutin, V., Pages from a Diary, Prozhektor, Moscow, 1921, No. 4.

To review, if one reads and accepts the chain of events, then there is at the very least, a clear case of reasonable doubt. Furthermore, we do not know if there was an order handed down by Lenin to liquidate the Tsar; whether this order extended to the entire Royal family, children and all. Mens Rea in this specific case, has not been clearly proven. For one thing the regional soviet could have acted o its own, and as Sverdlov states, was then endorsed by the Central committee, or even that it was the act of Bylov and his supporters who then in turn were endorsed by the Regional Soviet in order to save face, etc etc.

Whether Lenin ordered the executions of a multitude of people is not something we need to debate. The bone of contention here is whether or not he ordered the execution of the Tsar AND his family.

I therefore request that this sentence of this section of the page be edited, include additional citation or deleted.

For the purposes of thoroughness a review and its reply on David Shub's book can be found here: http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/newspape/ni/vol16/no02/shub.htm#top

Removed said statement as stated above. Raven Letters (talk) 12:54, 10 May 2009 (UTC) Raven Letters (talk) 10:09, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Trotsky's indictment of Lenin?

"However, Leon Trotsky stated in his diary that the assassination took place on the authority of Lenin and Sverdlov." - I cant seem to find any corroborating information to this statement. Could someone please cite the source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.95.19.213 (talk) 18:19, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Fake Anastasia...

In the article it says that there was DNA testing done on the Anna that Hollywood made the movies out of, that wasn't possible she had her body cremated. She did, however have appendicitis (spelling?) forcing her to have her appendix removed. Her appendix was saved and thats what the DNA testing was done on.

I know its just one of those little nit~picky things, but it bothered me.

I don't have a source for this one, I just saw it on an HBO special, Autopsy: A Special. It was something like that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.82.9.105 (talk) 04:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Peacock and other issues

This article suffers from a considerable amount of creeping violation of WP:Peacock, in that it has been too much edited by people who wish to portray the Tsar as variously a hero, a misinformed but basically good man, a martyr, a victim of the Jewish conspiracy etc. without providing much in the way of solid evidence. It is not the job of Wikipedia contributors to pass judgment on Nicholas II's lovableness, gentleness, good nature etc., or for that matter on his lack of same, but to report faithfully what a variety of existing sources had to say about him. The article is at present too much inclined to argue in Nicholas II's favour, when it should restrict itself to reporting the fact that there are and have always been arguments about him. It is not up to us to tell people what kind of guy he was, but to give them enough hard information to enable them to use their own judgment and make up their own minds. I am accordingly tagging the article. It's also too long, so I'm tagging that too; for example, I am surprised to note that the assassination section does not contain a link to a separate article on the assassination itself. Lexo (talk) 22:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I've tried a little copyediting here and there and remove the most obvious cruft, but the whole article should be reworked by someone who's an expert on the issue and has the necessary sources. Also, some stuff should be moved into the existing sub-pages, and there should not be too much duplication between them... Averell (talk) 19:03, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi everyone! Im rather new to Wikipedia and I certainly do not have a PhD on the subject, but I do have somewhere between 20 and 30 books on the Romanovs and Russian history, as it is the topic of my master's thesis. I don't know what kind of sources you need, but if you email me at Keltara@roadrunner.com and know what you are doing with editing the pages, I'll be more than happy to look up whatever I can with and reply with the sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keltara (talk • contribs) 18:11, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Keltara, and thank your for your offer. If you have some knowledge of the topic, just have a go at the article! You don't even need to sign up to edit, and if you should make a mistake people will surely help you out. Maybe you could first check if the current facts in the article are correct, or if important things are missing. You can always use the talk page to discuss things with the other editors. I strongly recommend that you remove your email address from this page, it will get picked up by all kinds of spammers. People can write messages on your user page. You can also enable the "email feature" in your Wikipedia account that will people let you send private mail (without having to disclose your address). It's also good to sign your comments here with four tilde (~) signs - this will "sign your name" Averell (talk) 15:38, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Murder/Killing/Execution...?

It can't be "murder": murders are committed by private individuals, and there can be no doubt of their illegality. Regardless of process, the killings were sanctioned and performed by the government, and therefore legal. "Assassination" is tendentious, though it has historical momentum behind it, and implies lawlessness committed with a political purpose, while the Bolsheviks were the properly-constituted and de facto government at the time. "Execution" has the problems associated with it that others have pointed out here (lack of process, etc.), but is still the most accurate.Taganguero (talk) 20:10, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Someone deleted the word "murder" and replaced it with "assassination" or "execution". I wonder if the term "murder" should not apply - this is the term usually used for illegal killings. An "assassination" it is not, clearly. "Execution" implies that the killing was legal under some code of law, which I don't see here (especially since the whole family is included). I'd opt for the term "murder", but if someone finds this too POV we could probably settle for the neutral (but slightly awkward) term "killing"? Averell (talk) 17:04, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Saying he was murdered is not POV because murder is what it was...I think. Gavin Scott (talk) 17:46, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Another person writes to agree that this article needs to be re-written by someone who is trying neither to justify nor to damn Nicholas Romanov. It is absurd to credit him personally with the massacre of Bloody Sunday and with Russian losses in the First World Way. One must understand how the world was, and how he was in it. If you want to judge a man you must understand his vision, his hopes, and how he saw the future. It is easy to judge with hindsight, but it is also facile. Because we always see what went wrong, but we cannot see what might have been. While I am not a 'fan' of Nicholas Romanov, I do not see, in this article, his wider vision and his hopes. These were not only his personal hopes and projections, but real potentials that existed in Russia a century ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.81.100.246 (talk) 00:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that "assassination" is the correct term, because even if some people may want to de-legitimize the government which ordered the killings, all of the killings were definitely politically motivated.FlaviaR (talk) 17:21, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Clearly assassination is the most inappropriate word, as it is restricted to political leaders or reigning monarchs and Nicholas had abdicated the throne and was a prisoner for nearly 15 months. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dandalo (talk • contribs) 15:25, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Passion-bearer vs. Martyr

There is no a priori distinction between a martyr and passion-bearer in the case of Nicholas II, as this article claims. We read in the ROCOR version of the prayer at the Litia:

[Molitvami] svyatykh slavnykh i dobropobednykh muchenikov i svyatykh strastoterptsev: Tsarya Muchenika Nikolaya, Tsaritsy Aleksandry, Tsarevicha Aleksiya, Tsareven Olgi, Tatiany, Marii, i Anastasii i vsekh novomuchenikov i ispovednikov tserkve rossiiskiya

[Throught the prayers of] the holy glorious and victorious martyrs and the holy passion-bearers: Tsar-Martyr Nicholas, Tsaritsa Alexandra, Crown Prince Alexey, Grand Duchessess Olga, Tatiana, Maria and Anastasia, and all the New-Martyrs and Confessors of the Russian Church. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.100.161.245 (talk) 20:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

100,000 dead soldiers per day

I read somewhere in the internet, that Nicolas II was sending soldiers to the battle with no uniforms, no boots, and no rifles. The slaughter was so bad, that there were days he was losing up to 100,000 people per day! Can someone help find this information? It would be interesting to think, what kind of a person would: 1. Celebrate his marriage, having a few thousand people stomped to death, (this is why he was called "bloody" first time) 2. Have peaceful demonstration of peasants executed,(this is why he was called "bloody" second time) 3. Send millions to their death just for his pleasure, and finally be canonized as a saint, just because he happened to be killed by the bolsheviks.

Excuse me, Wikipedia is a place where facts presented, not propaganda. If you "read something somewhere" it does not necessarily proves to be true. The Great War was a disaster for all the world, and Russia lost less lives than most of its enemies and allies. 62.231.5.194 (talk) 06:51, 25 September 2008 (UTC)Max (Moscow, Russia)

Actually Russia lost more soldiers than any other country in WW1 except Germany (and the second most civillians and total lives after Turkey), as can be found on the WW1 Casualties wikipedia page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.120.200.129 (talk) 15:09, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

uhhh... waayyy 2 long! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.112.198.83 (talk) 20:58, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I can tell you for one, if read this article on him and Bloody Sunday, you'd know that the czarist officials knew of the event several days before hand, and willingly decided to send the czar out of St. Petersburg on vacation without telling him of the event. He never found out about it until a few days later, in which he wasn't happy. His relatives in St. Petersburg wrote him a letter encouraging not to trust the government officials. My point is the actual czar didn't know how to run the country, and other people were controlling it, and even doing things without his permission. As for him having people stomped on his marriage day, I have no clue what you are talking about.

Nicholas II wasn't a saint, but compared to Lenin and Stalin, he a lamb. In the war, Russia lost about 3,000,000 persons against more than 70,000,000 persons during the "Communist peace" between 1917 and 1991.Agre22 (talk) 21:21, 31 January 2010 (UTC)agre22

Vandalization

Some545lljkr (talk) 16:37, 14 December 2008 (UTC) douchebag wrote the following, -"Nicholas was born in the pistons game, the dumbest son of Emperor Alexander III"-

I'm changing this for obvious reasons.

I've temporarily protected the article because of the excessive vandalization, most of it coming from IPs rather than registered users. - Nunh-huh 18:59, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Blocked

Who ever blocked this sould have checked for Vandalization first, some one put "hello egune" yet i cant remove it becuase the page is blocked Leftended (talk) 06:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't find the word "Hello" anywhere in the article. - Nunh-huh 06:31, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Nicholas II (Nikolai Alexandrovich Romanov; Russian: Никола́й II, Никола́й Алекса́ндрович Рома́нов) (18 May [O.S. 6 May] 1868 – 17 July 1918) was the last Emperor of Russia,HELLO EUAN! Grand Duke of Finland —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.240.222.89 (talk) 11:33, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

It's not there. Perhaps you need to clear your browser's cache and reload the page, because "HELLO EUAN!" was removed when the page was protected. - Nunh-huh 14:21, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Weird. I've tried cleaning my browser cache (and using another browser), but it is still there. However, according to the revision history it has been fixed. Could you do a minimal change (e.g. add a "he" after the "," in "As Head of State, approved the Russian mobilization of August 1914") and see if that resolves the problem? Also, the link to "Emperor Alexander III" in "family background" seems to be broken (it links to "Joe Pecci of Russia"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.240.222.89 (talk) 19:20, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Done and done. As for the Euan problem, perhaps one of our servers is still serving up an old version of the article. I seem to recall something about using the F5 key for such situations, but maybe it'll fix itself soon. - Nunh-huh 20:30, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, having looked that up, I'll purge the page's server cache. I'd be surprised if that doesn't cure matters. (Non-logged-in users are shown the server's cache. Yet another reason to log in :). -Nunh-huh 20:34, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

What was Russia's real life like with their ruler?

The WWl placed an unbearable strain on Russia's weak goverment(which Nicholas ruled)and economy, resulting in mass shortages andhunger. In the meantime, the mismangment and failures of the war turned people and important soldiers against the Tsar, whose decision to take personal commands of the army seemed to make him personally responsible for the defeats.

In March 1917, the Tsar lost control first on the streets, then of the soldiers, and finally on the Duma, resulting in his forced abdication on March 15, 1917.

The causes of these "Russian Revolution" were the weakness of Russia.WWl because they were badly led and poor equiped. War took also about 15million Russian men from farms and trains.

The Tsar's mistakes. He took personal command of the army without any experience, left the Tsaarina in charge and she was incompetent. Because of that inn February 1917 the goverment was in chaos. The army abandoned the Tsar, and teh Duma followed. The Tsar was forced to abdicate. Later he was murdered or wounded with his family. They found the bodies of the Tsar and his family. But, there was only one problem, the bodies of Anastasia and Alexi weren't found. They found two bodies of some children but they tested the DNA and the DNA wasn;t of them. A mystery still remains!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.139.244.98 (talk) 23:18, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

wealth

this pageList of wealthiest historical figures suggests that Nicholas was the third richest person to have ever lived with an estimated wealth of £290billion in totays inflation adjusted figures (almost 10x bill gates) i think this should be mentioned if someone could add it where appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.68.94.20 (talk) 00:00, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Picture of Coronation

i was just wondering, in the picture of the coronation of Nicholas II and the Empress, why is the lady to the left of the platform so white? I know that the light is shining on her, but is there any special reason that the painter put her in the light? i was just wondering, thanks.--KLM (talk) 02:44, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Final Months and Murder

I have change this heading to the NPOV "Final months and death". Note that in section headings only the first word should be capitalized. The term murder implies that they were killed by individuals acting on their own initiative in disobedience to the Communist Party. The Four Deuces (talk) 13:58, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Recovery of remains, etc.

I've noticed that the recovery and identification of Alexei and his sister's remains is mentioned in two places - under "Death", where there's a valid argument to mention it, and under "Sainthood", where it simply doesn't belong. Bizarrely, the DNA analysis of Nicholas himself isn't mentioned anywhere, including the most interesting part from a scientific basis: that he carried two lines of mtDNA (called "heteroplasmy" and very, very rare), and that this is what convinced the Russian government that his remains had indeed been found, because he shared the rarity with his brother. I'd like to get consensus to edit the article to reflect this. (Incidentally, Nicholas II is the most notable individual whose heteroplasmy has been identified, and according to one source the only one person on earth other than his brother whose heteroplasmy was found incidentally.) --NellieBly (talk) 14:05, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Family album

Wikipedia is not a photo host. It is enough to give a Commons link. Currently, this photo gallery occupies about a half of the article's lenght.Garret Beaumain (talk) 12:29, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Last Tsar?

Wasn't Nicholas's brother Michael technically the last Tsar of Russia? C.L. Sulzberger says this in his The Fall of Eagles. After Nicholas abdicated on behalf of his son, then changed his mind, he passed the empire to his brother Michael who abdicated the following day after being warned that his life could not be protected.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:40, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I reckon the historians have the final say. They've chosen to ignore the reluctant Michael II. IMHO, Mike was the 'last Tsar', as the Russian succession was automatic & the monarchy hadn't been abolished upon Nicky's abdication. GoodDay (talk) 15:21, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

The fact that Michael wasn't crowned isn't a significant factor either seeing as Russian tsars always waited a year following the deaths of their predecessors as that was the period of official mourning. When the full year had passed they were then crowned tsar.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:26, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I suppose, one could add Michael II into the Infobox & Navbox; atleast with 'dispute' next to it. Though, I'd get WP:RUSSIA's opinon on it, first. GoodDay (talk) 15:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

IF the WikiProject approves it, a model to copy from would be the Infobox/Navbox at Charles X of France. -- GoodDay (talk) 15:32, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I think historians pretty much have spoken (look at the book titles: Nicholas II, The Life and Reign of Russia's Last Monarch; Last of the Tsars; Nicholas II, The Last Tsar: you won't find Alexei or Michael in a historian's list of tsars. The issues around the abdication are manifold, but moot: the fact is that neither Alexei nor Michael ever acted as Tsar. The questions that make the "technical" issue of who was the last tsar are the same questions that make the answer unknowable: does a forced abdication have legal force? could Nicholas abdicate on his son's behalf? does trying to do so violate his oath to defend the fundamental laws of succession? If so, does it carry legal force? can someone who has already abdicated change his mind, given that he's given up the power to make such a decision, which now rests with his son? Does Michael's refusal count? etc. If the technical issues bother anyone, the statement that Nicholas II was the last tsar to rule Russia should finesse the issue. - Nunh-huh 15:37, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I reckon, the historians have got the final say. GoodDay (talk) 15:42, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

The fact that Michael was murdered before Nicholas also needs to be taken into consideration. I suppose all things considered, Nicholas was the last Tsar. I just thought I'd question it, seeing as how author Sulzberger called Michael the last Tsar in his book.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:14, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

IMHO, Michael was the last; oh well. GoodDay (talk) 16:15, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I would agree with you, however, we do need to take into account the legality of Nicholas' abdication; whether or not it was made under duress, plus the fact that Michael died before Nicholas.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:24, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually (when ya re-think it), Alexis was the last Tsar, as he never consented to the renouncement of his succession rights. But like I say, the historians have got the upper hand. GoodDay (talk) 16:32, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, one could argue that Nicholas was pressured into abdicating; although certainly not with the same strong-arm tactics used against Mary, Queen of Scots.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:36, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

It's always a tricky situation, when a monarchy is nearing its end. GoodDay (talk) 16:39, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

It was given the final push into the abyss by a lethal combination of Rasputin and German assistance.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:42, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Republics are much better anyways (not the communist ones, though). GoodDay (talk) 16:48, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Now we are getting very much off the subject. LOL.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:51, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

• Easy, guys. Mikhail never ruled a minute, nor Alexey. Mike did not accept the tittle. By your reasonin, should we also include Constantine Pavlovich, who similarly abdicated, as an Emperor? I'd say, no. Who does not accept the tittle, is not emperor. Neither army nor parliament have sworn to him. Garret Beaumain (talk) 18:19, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

The royal/imperial succession is not based upon personal acceptance, but primogeniture.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:28, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

You propose to list Constantine as well, then? And possibly exclude Catherines I and II as usurpers, who were not in right to claim the throne. Garret Beaumain (talk) 18:34, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't propose anything. I was merely posing a question based on the words of Sulzberger.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:38, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

The Russian monarchial history, has alot of unexpected twists & turns, to be sure. GoodDay (talk) 18:44, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, a very turbulent, mysterious and dramatic dynasty interlaced with a great deal of tragedy.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:48, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Trick question. The Empress of Russia is Maria Vladimirovna, Grand Duchess of Russia, the Russian realm is just under the occupation of republican forces at the moment. ;) - Yorkshirian (talk) 22:26, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Didn't Tsar Paul I of Russia impose Salic Law, thus barring female succession due to his neurotic hatred of his mother?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:59, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Tsar / Czar

The article became a mess with chunks using the American English Czar and other chunks and headlines, as well as footnotes, using the International English Tsar. They should all be in one style. As the article was originally written in International English, and is not an American English topic, I have changed the spelling back to the International English version, Tsar, Tsarevich, etc. It was ridiculous to have an article calling Nicholas Tsarevich and his son Czarevich with footnotes to Czarevich written as Tsarevich. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 02:00, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree. The usage of Tsar is more accurate than Czar.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:21, 24 December 2009 (UTC)