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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Elbasan101 (talk | contribs) at 15:47, 10 April 2010 (→Religion for the umptinth time!). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Patos Marinzas

The article has nothing about Patos Marinzas, the biggest on-shore oil field of Europe.Agre22 (talk) 01:45, 8 November 2009 (UTC)agre22[reply]

It is Patos / Marinza stgupid —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.59.88.57 (talk) 15:24, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Arnavutluk

I was surprised to find out that there is no mention of the Ottoman/Turkish name of the country in this nice and long article. At least the etymology section should have included something. After all, Arnavutluk and Arnavut (Albanians) have been a very visible if not prominent part of Ottoman history for centuries. A sizable Arnavut community in Turkey still recognize and identify their roots.--Murat (talk) 18:04, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Murat! I was not aware that Albania was called Arnavutlk during the Turkish presence. Could you please provide a map to show Arnavutluk within the Ottoman Empire? I'll make sure to update the article. As a matter of fact many improvements are due here, but unfortunately many albanian users have been banned. If you ban too many users of a small people, that's what you get. sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 16:58, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by Albania was called Arnavutlk? Further more, the article states that it was official! Arnavutlk or Arnavut is the way how the otomans used to call albanian and albanians during that time but that was not any official name! Sulmues, I think you should remove the term "officially". Even nowodays, Trukish people refer to albanians as Arnavut, but that does not make it an official naming for Albanians. Piasoft (talk) 02:13, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Shingen

Is it not an important port city in Albania? I know it may have different names, but could not see any reference anywhere. I made a little stub (San Giovanni di Medua) which needs much input.--Murat (talk) 18:04, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You may be thinking of Shëngjin, which today is a small town near Lezha. The only port cities in Albania are Durrës and Vlora. Kenji Yamada (talk) 07:49, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually Shëngjin has a port and it is very important. You can check on google for images of Shëngjin port. A lot of goods that go toward Kosovo is processed thought this port. Piasoft (talk) 02:21, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, I was mistaken on this point! Thanks for the correction. Kenji Yamada (talk) 18:10, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Religious numbers

I made useful changes to the religious statistics here: [1] because the numbers in the reference [2]was incorrectly used and added so I had to foot the numbers properly. It took me some minutes to do that.

But here comes athenean and reverts the WHOLE THING with other things as well and makes a mess in the article. Of course his numbers in the article for religious statistics won't add up to the right amounts that appear in the source. [3]. Athenean, please do the math and you will see that your numbers don't make any sense. And stop whispering to the admins to ban all the albanians that you find on your way, otherwise you'll get IP editors getting back at you. All you'll get is to ask for protection and have no life. sulmues (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:39, 29 December 2009 (UTC).[reply]

What I find most disturbing is that people are even suggesting basing the religion statistics on little-known dubious sources, while the sources most commonly used for the same purpose on other articles are not even mentioned. According to Britannica:

In the early 21st century about seven-tenths of the Albanian population was nominally Muslim, more than half of them Sunni Muslims and the next largest group being the Bektashi sect. Those who identified with Eastern Orthodoxy constituted about one-fifth of the population, and those associated with Roman Catholicism constituted about one-tenth. Muslims are spread throughout the country, although they particularly dominate the centre. Roman Catholics have settled primarily in the northern part of the country, mainly in the city of Shkodër, while Orthodox Christians are prominent in the southern districts of Gjirokastër, Korçë, Berat, and Vlorë.

The CIA World Factbook also repeats the traditional figures (Muslim 70%, Albanian Orthodox 20%, Roman Catholic 10%) as "estimates".
While I do understand and respect the POV of certain Albanians to underestimate the extent of traditional/nominal Islam in Albania believing that by doing so they are presenting Albania as more "Western" or "European", and the point of even doing so is in itself debatable, these facts should not be removed from the article. I suggest including all available sources.--Ptolion (talk) 21:56, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Very good point Ptolion. There is definitely a concerted effort to portray Albania as "Christian" and therefore "Western" and "European" as possible. There is a very simple way to deal with this, however. What is sourced to reliable sources can stay, what is sourced to dubious sources goes in the trash. Simple as that. There is absolutely no need to respect or tolerate any sort of POV-pushing. We have ways of dealing with that as well. --Athenean (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The situation is actually much worse than that. There are deliberate attempts at deception here. I noticed that the article says the World Christian Encyclopedia published in 2001 by the Oxford University Press. Vol 1: p 51 says that roughly 39% of Albanians are Muslim, and 35% being Christians. However, when I check the citations provided, neither of them has anything to do with the "World Christian Encyclopedia". One is from some website [4], the other is from the website of the Albanian consulate in Milan [5]. Whoever inserted these mentioned the Oxford University Press in a deliberate attempt to mislead and cast an air of respectability on these dubious sources. I will consequently remove them and replace them with the CIA World Factbook and Encyclopedia Britannica. --Athenean (talk) 00:39, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Now you have the reference directly from the World Christian Encyclopedia with full isbn. sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 01:47, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's an improvement, although do you think you could include a link to the citation? It's impossible to verify the way you have provided it. In general, the World Christian Encyclopedia should be treated with caution as a source, as it is known to be pro-Christian and consistently gave a higher estimate for percent Christian in comparison to other cross-national data sets. I am not terribly interested in this debate, so I will leave it there for now, but that is something to keep in mind. --Athenean (talk) 02:21, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to touch this any longer either. I really can't provide a citation for the fact that 1929 is really the last year when Albania had an official religious census, so it's ok if you take it out: it's unsupported, even though I'm sure about it. Now World Christian Encyclopedia might be biased, but I could argue that also the PEW research is also biased. Bottom line the company is a think tank that works for the US government. And so does the CIA (that refers to the 1929 data). I could argue that the interest of the USA is to depict Albania like as a muslim country because it wants to make it an example of a democratic muslim country for other muslim theocratic countries. That's why the truth might be closer to what the World Christian Encyclopedia is saying. Furthemore there are 1200 christian churches in ALbania and 500 mosques, what does that tell you? sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 16:57, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I removed a small section that pertained specifically to the Jehovah's witnesses and LDS or 'Mormons'. With a population of over 3 million, it didn't seem noteworthy to single out these 2 groups and note their numbers with only a few thousand apiece, without attempting a more detailed breakdown of the christian percentages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.217.144.112 (talk) 23:31, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say that as Jehovah's witnesses and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are among the fastest growing religions in the world, this is very relevant. 2007apm (talk) 20:56, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sulmues I really doubt the US govt is peddling an agenda of trying to showcase Albania as some kind of shining example. This is just fanciful, especially since there are other more successful Muslim democracies other than Albania’s weak emerging one, with the added gravitas of being more important and much larger than an island, like Indonesia or Turkey.

Were are these 1200 Churches in Albania, that’s ridiculous, your statements are ridiculous. That goes for mosques as well? What I want to know is why they have stopped at these nice round numbers. Just let Albania be what it is stop inventing facts--Elbasan101 (talk) 19:09, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Science and technology section

I think it would be appropriate to add a section to Alabamian Science and technology. I have found some sources can someone help me put something together.

R&D research does not exceed 0.18% of GDP 24 research studies institutes


"From 1990 human resources in sciences and technology have drastically decreased.

Various surveys show that during 1990-1999, approximately 40% of the professors and research scientists of the universities and science institutions in the country have emigrated. This exodus is growing and according to a survey run in 1998 a greater number of highly educated people want to emigrate. They are mainly young people who wish to emigrate for a long time or forever. It is clear that if the economic and social situation in the country does not improve, the Albanian brain drain will continue as intensively as before.

However, the continuous brain drain poses a severe threat to this system. Driving forces for the brain drain are found in the deteriorated economic living conditions, the lack of state – of – the – art infrastructure and funds that constitute serious obstacles for research. The restrictive visa regulations also hinder scientific exchange and temporary employment abroad.

Some of the highly educated people do return after their studies and others may also consider it. During this year the new government has planned many ways to provide the acilities to have the new situation changed into : the brain gain.

Mapping Exercise - Albania

There is a total 578 scientific workers in our country: 274 in Academy of Sciences and 304 in R & D institutions of Ministries. The number of personnel in R & D in Albania are about 0,2 for 1000 habitants" http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:JGpOLZ36GhYJ:webmob.masfak.ni.ac.rs/uploads/articles/webmob_mapping_exercise__albania.ppt+Research+and+development+in+albania&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

"Albania approves science strategy. On 29 June, the Council of Ministers approved the National Strategy for Science, Technology and Innovation in Albania covering the period 2009–2015.

It fixes five strategic goals to 2015:

To triple public spending on research and development (R&D) to 0.6% of GDP;

To augment the share of gross domestic expenditure on R&D from foreign sources, including via the European Union’s Framework Programmes for Research, to the point where it covers 40% of research spending;

to create four or five Albanian centres of excellence in science which will be equipped with dedicated laboratory equipment and workspaces that could be used for pre-incubation, testing, certification and so on of new technologybased firms;

to double the number of researchers, both through ‘brain gain’ incentives like a returning researchers grant scheme and through the training of new researchers, including 500 PhDs: this will entail establishing up to three new doctoral programmes in Albanian universities;

to stimulate innovation in 100 companies, either via investment in local R&D or via consortia with academic research institutes or foreign partners."

http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=46557&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html


http://cordis.europa.eu/fetch?CALLER=MSS_AL_NEWS_EN&ACTION=D&DOC=3&CAT=NEWSQUERY=012781319cf6:585a:79a1ee85&RCN=28126
http://cordis.europa.eu/fetch?CALLER=MSS_AL_NEWS_EN&ACTION=D&DOC=1&CAT=NEWS&QUERY=012780c04814:b450:09ce483b&RCN=29062

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:1gIeJX2H-HAJ:www.wbc-inco.net/attach/Report_Albania.pdf+Research+and+development+in+albania&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiVyVg-g24X1JrNgP4MR0kEohPCbi4GKeMk_Fr6f37xM4YM9ktL81AFlmlZpwtfI1V0zqupMN33_qHvlQeDmaylE1NwW4dQHxMPEvJTOlHGkrTIXetsgaK0PthxdmhmpdWTcn9x&sig=AHIEtbR1QZwMakonOSgkdrkitiO4CO-CCw

--Elbasan101 (talk) 12:55, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I cobbled something together...some pics would be nice, looks a bit dull, maybe I can reduce teh words later, easier in the eyese and evrything--Elbasan101 (talk) 20:35, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Motto

The motto part in the infobox is incorrect. Albania does NOT have an official governmental motto. That reference is obviously not referring to any official government motto. I suggest that the motto part of the infobox be properly removed, as it's not referring to anything properly sourced. Anyone who disagrees? --Sulmues talk 20:42, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. I agree —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elbasan101 (talk • contribs) 11:10, 10 April 2010 (UTC) --Elbasan101 (talk) 11:28, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Religion for the umptinth time!

Should this be added

"A second study of religion in Albania under the International Religious Freedom Report 2009, performed by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor of the United States's State Department, found that a majority of Albania's population is nonreligious.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2009/127295.htm International Religious Freedom Report 2009 Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor United States Department of State

My objections:

1) The "study" posits a view "that a majority of Albania's population is nonreligious". That may well be the case, probably true, but surely we need to see the data on which this assumption is based on. I assume come kind of study was done, or some local sources acting in an official or neutral capacity were used. Or maybe religious attendance figures have been compiled. If this is the case than this should be published.

The religious section has become a monstrosity, with personal innuendos backed by doggy sources trying to accommodate every view. This source adds to the speculation without any proof. Merely saying something is true does not make it so.

2) There is a suggestion that this is a NPOV source, and assumption being that it is accurate or quasi-accurate. However when I read the report there seemed to be inaccurate reporting on religious freedom in Albania. The constitution allows religious freedom both in school and in society. The government has made it clear that religious discrimination on the basis of ones attire is prohibited. This is backed up by the Albanian constitution Art 10. The study/report seems to condone the practice that some teachers in Albania do not allow their students to hear hijabs, quite contrary to religious freedom. This is either sloppy or biased work.

For these reasons I would that the source not be included pending further information concerning the statement made.

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