Talk:Luas

Number of Stations

There is an apparent inconsistency between the number of stations declared in the Summary Box and Introductory Section (49 Stations), and the two diagrams of the Green Line (45 Listed Stations) and the Red Line (32 Listed Stations) - totalling 77 stations, all with discrete names. Either something is wrong here, or else the inconsistency needs explaining. At the present time it is impossible to use this article to get to the bottom of the very basic matter of how many stations there are - I'm afraid to say, it's a mess. 88.96.159.86 (talk) 12:23, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

49 open stations is correct, 22 Green Line & 27 Red Line. The figure of 77 includes proposed future extensions, in light blue. Note that Brennanstown & Racecourse haven't opened yet, incorrectly denoted in dark blue. Suckindiesel (talk) 17:43, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Naming

The Wikipedia policy on naming of articles is quite clear, re: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), and the use of English. Moreover the word "LUAS" is more than just an Irish word, it part the corporate brand image which is used to conduct business. The words "Dublin Light Rail System" are a subtitle at best, therefore the article should be under LUAS with a Dublin Light Rail System redirect! Djegan 17:44, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Clarrification - because someone removed all mention - 1) "LUAS" (note caps) was the official name of the system originally, or at least in planning stages and 2) "Dublin Light Rail System" was also used to identify the system before operation. Djegan 21:12, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Operator: Connex?

According to the artical, LUAS is operated by Veolia Transport Ireland (formerly known as Connex). Now, I was travelling on the Red Line yesterday and noticed that the driver had the word "Connex" on his jumper. (There was a problem with one of the doors, and the driver left the cab to walk back through the tram to attempt to fix it. In the end he gave up and just locked that door.) TRiG 00:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Connex is a brand name of Veolia Transport. --Kwekubo 16:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Length of track

Does anyone know the length of track of the luas?

Number of trams per line are;

26 Citadis 301A Red Line. Length: 30 metres. Capacity: 235 people (60 seats). 14 Citadis 301A Green Line. Length: 40 metres. Capacity: 300 people (80 seats).

Green Line = 9km Red Line = 15km

When the capacities are corrected for the length of the track the Green line is marginally ahead.

Nicknames

How widespread is the "Snail on the rail" nickname. It is good - I suspect this one will stick (sorry!). It's really quite apt! I believe the top speed is 45 km/h - it's not in the article, could someone confirm? The Harcourt line of course, had steam locos beating that speed (unsurprisingly) and later DMUs. Bunch of retrograde politicians we had/have. Bah! The Luas passing outside the old Harcourt street station is a brilliant advertisement for the shortsightedness that continues to plague our nation. zoney ▓█▒ talk 12:46, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Several times now, I've heard it referred to as the "Huey" Jlang 11:50, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've been on it recently and was by the cab, and it got up to 65kmh actually. JOHN COLLISON | (Ludraman) 17:15, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Top speed is 70km/h (from some official RPA documentation). Jlang 17:53, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yeah. That's just over 40 mph (got my units mixed up!), and that's the top speed! I think "Snail on the Rail" is justified! zoney ♣ talk 23:53, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ah, leave it alone, wudja - it's a tram not a train! JOHN COLLISON [ Ludraman] 08:15, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I suspect it compares quite favourably with the likes of the London Underground, which just feels faster because it's in a tunnel --Ryano 14:33, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The nicknames are silly - especially the "snail on the rail". I've never heard anyone use "snail on the rail". Be honest, if you asked the average Dubliner what the "snail on the rail" was, they wouldn't have a clue. Sure some people might think it's amusing. Personally I don't find it particularly witty; it rhymes but it doesn't make sense - 70km/h is very fast by commuting standards in Dublin. Anyway that's an aside - funny or not, there's no reason to say that it's a nickname for the Luas if only five people out of the whole population of Dublin would recognise it. Any reason not to chop it? User:jimg

I've heard plenty of people call it the "Daniel Day", I've never heard any of the other nicknames in use. --Ryano 14:33, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I see someone has added a qualification to the nicknames sentence. While this improves the paragraph somewhat in terms of accuracy it still reads very poorly. I'd argue that the subclaus " the Jacks on the Tracks, and the Snail on the Rail have been suggested, but such names are not popular and would not be immediately recognised by Dubliners" should be removed altogether - it really adds nothing to the article in terms of information and ruins the tone and flow of the first paragraph. User:jimg

I would suggest that Daniel Day has become accepted by a majority of dubliners as so is the de facto nickname for the luas, anyone argee (Gnevin 20:18, 11 May 2006 (UTC))

Never heard it once. Fabhcún 13:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

There is currently a sign on Camden Street/South Richmond Street advertising apartments "just minutes from the Daniel Day". --Ryano 14:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I've heard the "Daniel Day" (Lewis) used on several occasions and also the "Jerry Lee" (Lewis) less frequently. One occasion the two lines were described as Daniel and Jerry respectively but I'm unsure which was which, my suspicions is the Green line was named for the Irishman but I couldn't say for sure. Frankly I'd be amazed if any of the other nicknames stick, maybe the "Snail on the Rail" as it fits with the rhyming names but the Luas is popular enough and not so slow that most people would prefer a less derisory nickname. "Jacks on the Tracks" doesn't even make sense since Jacks is slang for toilets. I was prompted to check this article when the Irish Times Saturday supplement February 24, 2007, in which an Irish woman returning to Dublin writes about the reverse culture shock she experienced including both the names Jerry Lee and Daniel Day. I guess that gives the necessary citation, they dont call it "the paper of record" for nothing. -- 00:31, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Criticism?

"There is a greater level of ticket checking than on the DART or Dublin Bus, making fare evasion more difficult". Why is this a criticism?

How amusingly Irish! I suspect someone just slipped up (rather than an editor feeling they should be able to evade fares!) zoney ▓█▒ talk 22:53, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

That was indeed funny. I hope the addition I made can add a more innocent (yet honest) motive for making the point. BTW, Zoney, I love the little font/colour blocks in your sig! Krupo 00:25, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)

There is actually less ticket checking on the luas. Especially in the morning, as it's impossible for ticket inspectors to move around at 9am rushhour. --Jasonm 03:45, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Map

I'm not familiar with Dublin and I'm trying to get a sense of how this system fits into the city. The map which shows the rail lines floating in a white sea does not really put things in a geographic context. -- Beland 03:37, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Seconded.martianlostinspace 14:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, as a local i'll see if I can come up with something from a free source. Rmkf1982 | Talk 18:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not looking good on the map front - does anyone know of any sources for free maps? If I could find one I could merge it with the Luas stops map. Rmkf1982 | Talk 22:03, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Its going to be very difficult getting a free map (unless as you do what I did and draw your own) for the Luas that is geographically accurate and not simply a symbolic representation of fare zones and tram stops. Djegan 22:10, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

can the map be upgraded to include the green line to cherrywood--143.239.7.3 (talk) 11:25, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Surplus

RTE reports that Luas is now running at a surplus, a year ahead of schedule, and is the only public transit agency in the country not to require subsidy. Ben-w 08:57, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Then perhaps this sentence from Luas#Value For Money ought to be deleted as out of date, especially since the article states that Luas "operates without a state subvention":

"One transport economist has reckoned that each passenger journey costs the taxpayer €6 (apart from and on top of the fare charged to the passenger)."

Tamino 21:25, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Luaslogo.png

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POV

Sections of this article are resembling a debate on a talk page.....need to keep the opinions HERE if they need to be discussed - we'll have to remove them from the main 'cos this article is getting steadily worse with each improvement. (Sarah777 20:55, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

Removed Text

The Luas system is very popular with commuters, being seen as clean, dependable and reasonably good value. Nevertheless, there has been some criticism of the system and its pre-operational organisation.

There was considerable disruption to traffic during construction work. Businesses also suffered immensely because of the disruption and visitors to the city were inconvenienced. However, the Green Line has already proven extremely popular, bringing many more visitors into the city centre, and carrying a reported 700,000 passengers in its first month of operation. The Red Line is subject to similar usage despite being serviced by a larger number of (albeit shorter) trams. Veoila have begun to upgrade Red Line trams to 40m as the platforms are already built for 40m trams, with at least four tramsets now running at 40m lengths. The green line trams are already at this length and cannot be made any longer.

Cost

Though the construction exceeded its budget, costing over €700 million (3 times the original estimate ), there were several delays and modifications throughout its construction. There were significant costs associated with building two physically separate tram lines at the same time. For instance, whereas one depot would ordinarily be used, two were constructed.

Rail gauge

Although all of Ireland's other railways have a 1600 mm width between tracks, known as gauge, the Luas was built with a gauge of 1435 mm. During the construction of both lines many commentators wrongly believed that that the lines were not being built to UK standard 1435mm (4' 8½") gauge. However, this arose from a misunderstanding of the requirements for upgrading the Green Line to metro standard. The Green line has been built to metro standard which requires that the centre-to-centre distance between the tracks is greater than for normal LRT track. The Red Line, which is not scheduled to be upgraded to metro standard has the normal LRT centre-to-centre distances. Both lines are incompatible with existing rail systems in Ireland, which all use a slightly broader (1,600mm or 5' 3") gauge; this is exactly why informed commentators criticised the 1435 mm gauge choice by Luas. While the Luas does not need to be interoperable with heavy rail, any future Metro system can only be made compatible with either Luas or heavy rail, not both. Critics also claimed that the 30m red line trams could not run on green line tracks, "as they were not the same gauge". Their claims were proven wrong in late 2004 when a 30m red line tram from the red line, number 3002, was transferred onto the green line. It ran in service with 40m trams, albeit with much overcrowding and frustration amongst passengers, who didn't understand why the tram was so short. 3002 returned to the red line 3 months later.

Road traffic collisions

Within hours of starting service, a Luas tram had collided with a car on Harcourt Street, while near-collisions were an occasional problem as of August 2004. A second collision with a car was reported on the Red Line at the end of August 2004 during final testing prior to the public launch. However, in all cases of Luas/road vehicle collisions the fault has been with the driver of the car or van trying to ‘beat’ the tram at a junction. September 2004 also witnessed the first collision between two Luas trams, at the crossover at the St. Stephens Green terminus.

Ticket prices

The price of tickets has also been criticised, with a minimum fare of €1.40 being charged for an adult single journey within a single zone. Unlike other public transport in Dublin, where tickets must be shown every time you use the service, the Luas relies on ticket inspections. While originally about one journey in every three was subject to inspection, it is now more likely to be one in ten. At present it is possible to buy a ticket from a point on the Green Line to a point on the Red Line, but it is only possible to make such a journey by walking between St. Stephen's Green (current terminus of the Green Line) and Abbey or Jervis stops (on the Red Line) because the two lines are not connected.

Value for money

There is also a serious issue with value for money. Some estimates of the cost of the system range much higher than €700 million. One transport economist has reckoned that each passenger journey costs the taxpayer €6 (apart from and on top of the fare charged to the passenger). The figures exclude the colossal cost to the business community caused by business disruption during the construction period. Some commentators have criticised the expenditure as offering poor value for money. The resources might have been far better invested in creating an excellent bus system for the city, in place of the much-criticised service that exists currently. It is arguable, however, that only a dedicated busway with the same restrictions on other road users as Luas or rail could approach a tramway in providing the level of service comparable to that of a fixed track system. These arguments also presume that traffic congestion has no cost to the economy.

It is also worth noting that current proposals for similar urban transport routes in Cork, and Galway, are budgeted for 12% of the cost per kilometre of the Dublin Luas line. The expected peak capacity is 90% equivalent.

Capacity

The Luas was sold to the Irish public on the basis that it would take cars off the congested roads of Dublin. Therefore the capacity issue is of most relevance. In comparison to the alternative DART running along the bay area, the Luas consisted of carriages of much lower capacity. The hope that Luas could bring improvements comparable to the introduction of DART was completely misplaced. Thus, the most serious criticism of the Luas has been there from the beginning; the predictable inadequacy of the system to deal with the volume of demand. This is particularly the case on the Red Line. Morning peak time (7.30am to 8.45am) intervals between trams had decreased from five minutes to four minutes by October 2006, but city-bound trams are often quite full by the time they reach Red Cow and it is common for many intending passengers to be unable to board from that point onward. The increase in price for single tickets sold at vending machines at these times has not improved matters. Very few intending passengers even turn up to attempt to secure passage at the remaining stations during the morning peak. The obvious solution would be to increase the frequency of trams still further. However, Garret FitzGerald (former Taoiseach and perhaps the most trenchant critic of the Luas) has pointed out that the system was designed from the beginning to accommodate only fifteen trams per hour. In comparison the DART service, which had been criticised by Fitzgerald on its launch in 1984, and who asserted at the official launch that he would never have sanctioned the project, was far more successful at moving large numbers of commuters at a greater speed than the LUAS. In comparison the DART project was subject to much criticism during its construction stage by commentators.

Frequency

As of the middle of January 2007, the operators began experimenting with efforts to run trams every three minutes on the Green Line. The immediate issue is that the traffic lights on the street junctions are set with a certain frequency in mind, and it is difficult to exceed that frequency. It remains to be seen how the system will cope when it is extended to Cherrywood in one direction, and across the City Centre in the other.

17:46, September 21, 2007 Gnevin (Talk | contribs) (14,485 bytes) (→Criticism - moved to talk , yet other example of an irish transport project with total uncited criticism) (undo) Absolutely, couldn't agree more. (Sarah777 23:56, 21 September 2007 (UTC))

Tidying-up

I have added six more references (total 13 citations) and made a set of changes to tidy up the layout. If you compare versions on the history page the sea of red might make it look as though a lot has been deleted. Actually this is almost entirely text that has been moved to bring related material together. The most visible difference is that all the images are aligned right and some of them have been moved into a gallery so that the article is easier to read, especially the Future section. I've also updated a few 2006 facts using the latest 2007 report published last month. Hope you are not too dismayed... Pointillist (talk) 01:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Looks much better to me. Sarah777 (talk) 11:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

• I've just shifted your 2010-Line B1 image to be right-aligned. It is just so the years stay left-aligned: hope you don't mind. - Pointillist (talk) 22:42, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Nope. Your layout is much better. Regards Sarah777 (talk) 03:28, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Can someone check the links/references. I think some are broken. --HighKing (talk) 00:15, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The so-called 02 stop will actually be called "The Point". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.198.151.36 (talk) 02:32, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

National Rail Logo

The Heuston, Connolly, Bray Daly & Broombridge Stops all have National Rail Symbols beside them to indicate rail interchanges, but these images link to the British National rail page and should surely be Iarnrod Eireann images linking to Iarnrod Eireanns page. I had a go at adding an ie or irl option to the template, but I don't know enough about them to change it correctly. Was just wondering if anyone out there with the knowledge would be interested in doing it. --Thedecline (talk) 23:17, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Agree and it shouldn't be to hard to implement, however their might be a issue with the logo use in the template, not with the template it's self but with fair use issues using the log in a template. Might have to use some kind of generic one. What exactly dd you do, their probably is not an option built out for Iarnrod Eireanns, so if think you do what you did, that's why it didn't work. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 23:36, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

2 lines or 3?

Surely the way trams run on the new extension;

Tallaght - The Point
Tallaght - Connolly
and
St. Stephen's Green - Sandyford,

would count as 3 lines. Using the same logic as is used on the DART's article, shouldn't the luas be referred to as a 3 line system? IRISHwiki15 19:15, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Nope, the Connolly and Docklands directions are simply branches of the one line, the Red line. A similar system is followed on most rail systems, most notably the London Underground, where lines like the District line have about 5 or 6 directions.

As for the DART article, it may well be wrong. Transport 21 includes plans for a "second DART line" out to Maynooth, and it also states that the 2 lines will be called DART 1and DART 2, so it looks like DART has only one line currently. --Footyfanatic3000 ^{(talk  · contribs)} 17:19, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

B1

7.6 or 7.5km not a major issue I know but the Luas Cherrywood Railway Order says 7.6 [1] . However the RPA also say 7.5 [2] as does the times [3] and others [4], [5] . Go with 7.5 ? Gnevin (talk) 16:08, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Cherrywood

Nothing at all is said of when the Cherrywood extension was opened, i thought the track diagram was wrong until i checked a comment on the tlak page earlier, any ideas when it was? and in one stage, or multiple? Halowithhorns89 (talk) 18:36, 3 November 2010 (UTC)