User talk:O Fenian
 | O Fenian is currently wikibonked and is operating at a lower edit level than usual. Hitting the wall is a temporary condition, and the user should return to normal edit levels in time. |
 | If you object to anything you read on this page, then the correct solution is to click here. O Fenian (talk) 16:30, 20 August 2009 (UTC) |
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User:Wessexboy
Re your report at WP:AE, I've recused myself from this one as I'm a UK resident. This is purely to avoid any allegations of bias being made and in no way reflects badly upon your report or suggests that you have done anything wrong in raising the issue. There are plenty of admins from outside the UK and RoI that can handle this issue. Mjroots (talk) 09:03, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
Kornet/Hamas
Hi!
I see you've reverted my edit on the 9M133 Kornet page. May I ask what exactly striked you as POV about it? I do think that shooting an ATM into a yellow school bus is a "terrorist attack" and ought to be labelled as such. At the very least, this is not a regular instance of a "combat history".
What do you think? Maybe we can work out another formulation. Bazuz (talk) 19:48, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
- Well some would say that all Hezbollah uses of the weapon would be terrorist attacks, and according to the source in the article it is unclear whether the bus was the target. I am sure the reader can make their own mind up as to whether it was a terrorist attack. O Fenian (talk) 08:04, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- 1. Well, first of all we're talikng about Hamas here, not Hezbollah. I for one do think that the designation of an instance of weapon use depends on the target. Firing at a tank is not terrorism - it's an act of war. Firing at a school bus is terrorism, plain and simple.
2. As for whether the bus was the target, it's highly unlikely that it wasn't. Modern ATM's usually do not hit things by mistake - If it hit the bus it was directed either at the bus or at some other vehicle. Since the bus is large enough and presumably distinctly visible at the ATM operator's screen. The only other possibility I see is that Hamas tried to hit another civilian vehicle on the same stretch of road and took down the bus by mistake - but this possibility is neither likely nor serves to exculpate them from intentionally targeting civilians.
3. In support of the claim that this was indeed a terrorist attack, please consider the following text from the CNN article ([1]):
An Israeli military official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said the Thursday attack was launched from a location about 3 1/2 kilometers away from the bus. There was an attempt to fire a second missile after emergency personnel had responded to the scene, the official said. For reasons unknown to the IDF, the second launch failed.
4. Another passage from the same article:
Hamas controls the Palestinian government in Gaza. Listed as a terrorist organization by the United States, Hamas has carried out dozens of terrorist attacks killing Israelis and others.
May I ask what is yout opinion? Is firing an ATM at a school bus an act of terrorism or not?
Best, Bazuz (talk) 09:37, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- "It was not immediately known if the bus was targeted, but Leibovitch said it looked like "a direct hit."" seems to be missing from your analysis of source material. The state targeted by Hamas or Hezbollah would doubtless consider attacks on tanks to be terrorist attacks in addition as would some sources and governments, so I do not see how singling out one attack for special treatment would do any good. Do you not think the reader can make their own mind up as to whether it or other attacks were terrorist attacks? O Fenian (talk) 15:06, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- Hey! You're right about me disregarding this bit but recall the opening paragraph:
Hamas claimed responsibility Thursday for shooting a missile that struck an Israeli bus, critically wounding a teenage boy on his way home from school.
For me, it more or less clinches it, it's not as if Hamas claimed that they were shooting at something at else, although they could have. Besides, I am quite certain of my analysis in the previous post.
Now, O' Fenian, I believe you have ignored my direct and simple question: do you personally regard ATM'ing a school bus as an act of terrorism or not? I have stated my own view on this above and would like to have yours. Is it too much to ask for in the context of this discussion?
P.S. I feel you might be a bit too solecist about this. By your reasoning it seems that nothing can be labelled terrorist at all. Do I miss something?
Best, Bazuz (talk) 22:42, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- Your own analysis has no place in this discussion, or Wikipedia articles. Your analysis of the quote is also wrong. It does not say;
Hamas claimed responsibility Thursday for shooting a missile at a Israeli bus, critically wounding a teenage boy on his way home from school.
- It does say;
Hamas claimed responsibility Thursday for shooting a missile that struck an Israeli bus, critically wounding a teenage boy on his way home from school.
- As the source, and indeed the "quote" (I note there is no record of the actual wording of the claim of responsibility) make clear, it is unclear as to what the target was, only that a missile was fired that hit a bus. O Fenian (talk) 21:18, 30 May 2011 (UTC)