Talk:Norman Finkelstein

Erased sentence

""While condemning the targeting of civilians to achieve a political goal, Finkelstein has stated he believes Hezhollah has the right to target Israeli civilians if Israel targets civilians."""

The references do not support this point. Finkelstein says something along the lines of "they have a right to defend themselves" How does this translate into him believing that it is ok for Hezbollah to target Israeli civilians if Israel does it?? It seems to me that whoever wrote this is probably a huge critic of Finkelstein and is trying to put in sentences like this to discredit him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.225.236.88 (talk) 05:01, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

No offense, but did you actually read the sources? In the first one Finkelstein literally states: "I do believe that Hezbollah has the right to target Israeli civilians if Israel persists in targeting civilians until Israel ceases its terrorist acts."--Kmhkmh (talk) 11:08, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

That is about the only quote that has any merit in your two articles and even then it has been misused.

""" It is impossible to justify terrorism, which is the targeting of civilians to achieve a political goal. But it's also difficult to make categorical statements of the kind you suggest. I do believe that Hezbollah has the right to target Israeli civilians if Israel persists in targeting civilians until Israel ceases its terrorist acts. """"""""""

He does not justify terrorism, but also doesn't think that it's realistic for them to simply lay down and die. In other interviews he talks about this in more detail. He makes comparisons with Palestinians and Israel to those of Nazi Germany and the jewish resistance fighters, who have at times targeted German civilian populations. According to you we should think of them as true terrorists as well. The important part of this quote is that he is trying to draw a clear distinction. He does not support terrorism, but it's important to think about who is the "instigator" and which group is consistently breaking international law. The second article you referenced is written by Alan Dershowitz and is complete nonsense. It is just one bit long rant.

According to wikipedia, terrorism can be defined as a non-governmental organisation performing an attack against a civilian target. There is the mitigating factor in the example provided in that it was primarily in an attempt at self-defence rather than a political goal or to attempt to terrorise the enemy. However, I still don't think there would be a justification even in the example you cited. From the books I've read on Nazi Germany, many Germans were ignorant of what occurred in the camps, docile due to the extreme police state enforced at the time of the war, or perhaps even sympathetic to the plight of the victims of the regime. I believe in Irish sovereignty and that English rule in the North of Ireland is a relic of England's imperialist past. While I couldn't seriously compare England and Ireland in modern times with Israel and Palestine, I also could not possibly condone the IRA targeting civilian populations. It's a pointless anecdote, but my friend's mum was shopping in Ealing when the car bomb went off: she's Irish and as far as I know supports an independent Ireland as well. 78.149.155.247 (talk) 18:22, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

The two articles are not "my" articles nor did I insert them or the content based on them. I merely corrected your false claim/edit (of the content being unsourced). If you you think there description is overall not accurate/misleading or the articles are not well suited as sources, you are free to argue that here and if there's consent to modify the article accordingly.

But you cannot simply delete established and sourced article content that you personally dislike or disagree with for whatever reason by falsely claiming that the content is not sourced

As far as "It is impossible to justify terrorism, which is the targeting of civilians to achieve a political goal" is concerned. That's your personal opinion which is irrelevant for the article. As far as Dershowitz is concerned I agree that he is a problematic (and highly partsisan) source on Finkelstein. Nevertheless are Dershowitz and his publications formally "reputable sources" and I don't think an article on Finkelstein is comprehensive without mentioning Dershowitz criticism of Finkelstein (whatever one might think of the criticism itself, it is definitely a notable aspect of Finkelstein's biography).--Kmhkmh (talk) 19:17, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

"" According to wikipedia, terrorism can be defined as a non-governmental organisation performing an attack against a civilian target.""

According to Websters dictionary, terrorism is defined as "the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes." I think it would be much better if we went by this definition, however general it may be. The only other definition of terrorism that i have heard is that it is " targeting of civilian populations and civilian infrastructure to achieve a political end" I don't think in any definition of the word is it specifically stated that it has to be a "non-governmental organization" Terrorism can be performed by government organizations to achieve political ends. According to your definition Hezbollah could not be considered a terrorist organization considering they are a political party and have seats in the Lebanese government. So according to your own definition he cannot be supporting terrorism

In the example with the IRA that you provided, the British have actually killed more civilians during that time then the IRA, yet the IRA were labeled as the real terrorists. According to the definition you gave this might make sense, however it relies on a false premise, and that is that only non-governmental organizations can be involved in terrorist acts.

The sentence should be erased because the point was not supported by the sources. It is not completely clear of what Finkelstein is saying, because in the first two sentences of that quote, he is clearly condemning "terrorism" Also that part was not my own opinion, that was a part of his reply (read your own article again) Either you forgot that he said that or you purposefully left that out in order for your sentence to seem more valid.

As for Dershowitz. I have no problems with him being mentioned but that reference was completely out of place. He was talking about Finkelsteins views and trying to discredit him, but it has nothing to do with the point you made. His article was a response to Finkelsteins larger view of the conflict. Also, while i do believe Dershowitz should be quoted in this page, let's not make the whole thing about him. This is supposed to deal with Finkelsteins and his views. I notice that very little information on this page actually talks about that, instead much of it is dealing with the medias image of Finkelstein and Dershowitz battle with him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.225.144.183 (talk) 04:17, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I removed Dershovitz as an unsuited source for that content. However left the sentence, since it is still well sourced by his interview and seems to be appropriate in that section. If several other editors agree that the sentence despite being correctly sourced is an overall unfair/misleading, I won't object its removal. I don't really a strong opposition either way as far as the sentence is concerned, but I do have an issue with single editors passing by and removing (reliably) sourced content from reviewed articles (good article). Also it might be a good idea to wait for comment of the editor(s), who inserted that sentence in the first place.--Kmhkmh (talk) 10:24, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

The important thing about the wikipedia article that is lost by a dictionary definition is that it points out that no one definition of terrorism is going to be accepted by all parties. If you read the article on "State terrorism" there has been no consensus on separating state terrorism (military usage of terrorist tactics), state sponsored terrorism (employing paramilitary groups as Hezbollah and the USA did) or terrorism itself. One thing that most definitions have in common is the targeting of civilians (rather than paramilitary or guerilla targets) for the effect of creating fear in the actual enemy. Perhaps "terrorism" isn't as useful as to whether it can be legitimate to target civilian populations? If there's a reliable source for Finkelstein's opinion on that matter I think it would make a good addition to the article. 78.151.152.235 (talk) 13:51, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't really see, why what WP defines or somebody defines as terrorism really matters with respect to the article. First of all the sentence in WP is not using the term terror or terrorism and second even if it did then it would be only a literal copy of Finkelstein himself, who uses the term in that interview.

If you want to argue he said literally terror(ism), but he didn't mean WP's or any other common definition of terrorism, then you'll need a source otherwise it will be just idle speculation for WP editors and some form of WP:OR.--Kmhkmh (talk) 18:50, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

"""since it is still well sourced""" No it is not. All you have is one quote which is not clear at all, given that in the first two sentences he is clearly condemning terrorism on both fronts. You are making way too strong of an assumption based on an unclear quote. I read the article and the rest of it does not point to the conclusion you drew either. If you want to make such a bold assumption then you cannot introduce unclear quotes and say "it is well sourced"

Also, i think most would agree that terrorism should include governmental and non-governmental organizations. You are talking about specific forms of terrorism, but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Sorry, but your argument is neither correctly referring to the text used in the WP article nor are you giving a correct description of the quote. So let me reiterate, the WP article is not talking about terrorism and it correctly describes what Finkelstein is conveying. The notion that anybody here would claim that Finkelstein support terrorism in general or any form of terrorism is something you've made up yourself, the WP article doesn't state any such thing nor did I in this thread.--Kmhkmh (talk) 20:43, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Ethnicity in lead

Is there consensus for this? TIA--Threeafterthree (talk) 16:29, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it should be there. His being Jewish is one step removed from his notability... he is particularly noted / controversial for his views on Israel and the Middle East, not for his practice (? or non-practice?) of Judaism. Note that his being Jewish, which requires a citation, isn't even mentioned in the body of the article. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:03, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I haven't been involved in this discussion (as of yet), just wanted to add my two cents: I recognize the validity of your point, but I don't think it's controversial that him being Jewish is an aspect of his notability; he himself has dicussed it at length in various interviews, its influence or lack thereof on his scholarship, it's an issue often raised by both his supporters and detractors, etcetera. I don't know the exact criteria for notability, but unless there is a provision that excludes noting a person's ethnicity unless certain criteria is met, I think it's notable. Shoplifter (talk) 17:35, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Sourcing, for one. If it's that important to his bio, then that should be developed in its own paragraph or section in the body of the article, with citations. That would be a nice counterpart to all the controversial stuff about him, and round things out. In fully developed articles the lede is supposed to be a short mini-article that reflects the contents of the article as a whole, rather than introducing its own material that isn't treated elsewhere. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:42, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Maybe that would be a good idea, on the other hand, I feel like that could easily be overdone, so to speak. Perhaps that is putting too much focus on it. By the way, here's a clip on the topic: http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=127800510568535

To be honest, I don't know which side of this discussion the content or the mere existence of the clip favors. :-) Shoplifter (talk) 20:19, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

:::::For all intents and purposes, his Jewish heritage is already thoroughly sourced in the article because it describes how both his parents were in the Warsaw ghetto and in two different concentration camps. That doesn't leave much room for doubt. It is also central to his notability, because his books and the controversy that surrounds them all deal with Jewish issues. Delia Peabody (talk) 14:52, 9 December 2010 (UTC) sock of banned user   Will Beback  talk  03:47, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Agee w/Delia on the notability of his Jewish ethnicity - but if this is to be included in the lead, it needs some context. I would add his ethnicity, then summarize very briefly his basic position on I-P issues. And if Prof Dershowitz is to be mentioned as someone who blocked his tenure, D's own university affiliation should be mentioned. So to summarize my position - I would keep it as it is w/o a lot of detail, or add enough detail to make it an actually meaningful summary that might inform someone who does not have the time or inclination to read to read the excessively lengthy and wordy article-Regards-KeptSouth (talk) 22:17, 9 December 2010 (UTC)-Regards-KeptSouth

Sounds good to me. - Wikidemon (talk) 00:52, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I see at the end of the article that it is included in 7 different "Jewish" categories, including "Jewish Anti-Zionism." I think that this is really central to Finkelstein's notability, and the controversy that surrounds him. It is difficult for pro-Zionists to dismiss Jewish anti-Zionists as anti-Semites (although they will often attempt it,) and the harshness of Finkelstein's critique combined with his family history make him perhaps the most formidable Jewish anti-Zionist (and a source of great aggravation for pro-Zionists.) Delia Peabody (talk) 14:58, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I've reverted your edit because I don't think the claim of him being an "anti-Zionist" can stand without sourcing, in light of the weighty requirements in WP:BLP. Shoplifter (talk) 14:23, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

::::::::::There are numerous sources which refer to Finkelstein as a Jewish Anti-Zionist, but most of them are pro-Zionist sources denouncing Finkelstein, so I would not use them in a BLP. However, here is a usable source, the Egyptian newspaper Al-Ahram: [1] Is this satisfactory? Delia Peabody (talk) 14:51, 15 December 2010 (UTC) sock of banned user   Will Beback  talk  03:47, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Since there seems to be no objection, I'll add it. Delia Peabody (talk) 16:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

The fact that Finkelstein is of Jewish ancestry is well-documented, and mentioned within the body of the article, though maybe it should be stressed more. The issue is whether the label of "ethnicity" belongs on the lede at all. Adding it to lede goes against the pattern used for other biographical articles. It makes sense for the lede to focus on the things that Finkelstein is notable for, namely his research. For that reason, they should be left to the main body of the article, not put in the lead. See WP:OPENPARA: Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 21:27, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, that may rise to the level of relevant to the subject's notability. There are other vocal and, er, strident academic critics of Israel but Finkelstein stands out as one of the most polarizing Jewish voices. That he's the child of a Holocaust survivor makes his positions more surprising. Is that a subjective judgment on my part or lede worthy and relevant? I'm really not sure. Maybe if RS find it remarkable it would be inclusion worthy? Sol (talk) 05:24, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::Finkelstein is notable as a critic precisely because he is Jewish. His criticisms would be easily brushed off were he not. Most press coverage stresses that he is Jewish, or the son of Holocaust victims, which amounts to the same thing. Delia Peabody (talk) 18:32, 6 February 2011 (UTC) No response. All right, are there any objections to a mention in the lead that he is the son of a Holocaust survivor? Delia Peabody (talk) 14:19, 10 February 2011 (UTC) sock of banned user   Will Beback  talk  03:47, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Delia Peabody—why would we mention in the lead a fact about his parents when it is Norman Finkelstein who is the subject of this biography? Wouldn't we be going out on a limb, so-to-speak, to assume that a fact wholly dependent on the parents of the subject of a biography warrants mention in a lead? The Holocaust experience is wholly confined to the life of the parent. That experience predates the birth of the subject of this biography. Bus stop (talk) 14:43, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

That is very clearly not the case. If you search in Google Scholar for "holocaust second generation", you ger 53,000 hits,[2] and there are a further 32,000 on Google Books.[3] The impact of the holocaust on the children of direct survivors is a very well-recognised and studied issue. RolandR (talk) 16:31, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

RolandR—you say, "The impact of the holocaust on the children of direct survivors is a very well-recognised and studied issue." But what impact did it have on Norman Finkelstein? It may be so that such impact is observed in many cases—but can the referred-to "impact" be shown to be applicable in the specific instance of Norman Finkelstein? Bus stop (talk) 18:13, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

I was responding to your comment that "The Holocaust experience is wholly confined to the life of the parent". As far as I recall, Finkelstein has indeed written about the effect on his childhood of his mother's experiences. If he considers this notable, we certainly cannot contradict him. RolandR (talk) 18:34, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

I think this has to be considered on a case-by-case basis. In some instances the experiences of the parent before the child is born can have "impact" on the child but in other instances the experiences of a parent before a child is born could have little if any impact. So I think we would want to be careful not to make generalizations about all children of Holocaust survivors. We would want to know specifically if Norman Finkelstein accords great significance to his mother's experience during the Holocaust. You say "If he considers this notable, we certainly cannot contradict him." I don't think we would necessarily be contradicting him if we failed to mention in the lead of our article that his mother survived the Holocaust. Bus stop (talk) 19:49, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

The fact that Finkelstein's parent were Holocaust survivors should be mentioned in the lead for a couple of reasons: (1) many sources comment on it; and (2) Finkelstein's primary claim to fame is the book "The Holocaust Industry" which portrays some survivors (or at least the organizations that represent survivors) in a negative light. The fact that his parents are survivors puts sheds a important light on his opinions, and indeed on his entire career. A reader seeing that fact in the lead will be in a better position to appreciate the body of the article. --Noleander (talk) 21:04, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Noleander—you say that "The fact that his parents are survivors puts sheds a important light on his opinions, and indeed on his entire career." The body of the article draws no connection between his mother being a Holocaust survivor and any of his activities or opinions. Based on the present content of the article the fact of his mother being a Holocaust survivor is a disconnected fact—disconnected from any opinions for instance expressed by Norman Finkelstein and presented in the body of the article. Bus stop (talk) 21:47, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, it could be that the article could be improved with more mention of his parents and their influence on him, however, I would say that his ethnicity and the plight of his parents can take up a single sentence and constitutes such basic information that I am not sure that we need to have it fleshed out in the article. His own statements give credit to his parents for his critique of Israel see for example this. un☯mi 23:11, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

:We don't need to psychoanalyze Finkelstein to know whether this is notable. Reliable sources that discuss The Holocaust Industry invariably draw attention to this fact. Delia Peabody (talk) 12:03, 11 February 2011 (UTC) sock of banned user   Will Beback  talk  03:47, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't think we are psychoanalyzing him at all. It is not Finkelstein who is a Holocaust survivor but rather his mother and the article is not about the mother. I think that what is at issue is whether or not the Holocaust experience of the mother of the subject of this biography warrants mention in the lead of this article. That the mother of someone who is sometimes described as an anti-Zionist is a Holocaust survivor is more a curiosity than an integral aspect of the arguments made and the stances taken by Finkelstein. I am not aware for instance that he ever predicates his reasoning in the matters that he is noted for upon the fact that his mother is a survivor of the Holocaust. That fact of his mother being a Holocaust survivor is more in the category of an incidental oddity than something of great importance. As such I feel it only warrants a passing mention in the body of the article and not in the lead. Bus stop (talk) 15:40, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

:::Let me put it differently then. It appears to me that you are constructing an argument based on your own analysis, when the yardstick for inclusion should be the extent to which it is discussed in reliable sources. Delia Peabody (talk) 14:48, 13 February 2011 (UTC) sock of banned user   Will Beback  talk  03:47, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Deletion of allegation that his mother was communist "leaning"; very biased excerpt from very negative Ha Aretz review.

Um, this is not kosher. The cited source prefaced the statement that Finkelstein's " parents, particularly his mother, had communist leanings" with the word "Evidently..."

Moreover, the immediate next statement accuses Finkelstein of "hatred" of Israel...whether or not one is willing to believe that, it is clearly a very negative review. Whatever be its merits, it is not the place for allegedly factual information about family.

ALso, communist "leanings" is a loaded term. It would be more FACTUAL if one could state that perhaps someone had for instanced authored pamphlets supporting communism, etc.

Also, most Jewish socialists of that era were simply socialist "leaning" and not outright "communist" particularly since Stalin was anti-Semitic.

In the USA, to call someone a "communist" is often derogatory and slanderous.

Finally, the article is about his momma. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WikidIKibitzShield (talk • contribs) 00:38, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Dershowitz for sourcing

The discussion under "erased sentence" above did not reach an agreement regarding various aspects of "terrorism" and "Finkelstein supporting 'terrorism' under certain circumstances". It did however reach an agreement of not using Dershowitz as a "factual" source in that section (more genereally using Dershowitz for "factual" claims about Finkelstein).

The reason for that is the long standing conflict and personal animosity between Dershovitz and Finkelstein, turning Dershowitz into a highly partisan source not being suited for "factual" claims about Finkelstein. There should be enough other reputable sources for sourcing such claims or statements about Finkelstein.

This does of course not mean that Dershowitz criticism of Finkelstein cannot be mentioned - it can and should and of course Dershowitz can be used as a (primary) source for that. But in such cases an intext attribution is required, i.e. it should be be clear to the reader that the claim stems from Dershovitz rather than a "neutral" 3rd party. It should not look like a like factual description, where only the reading of the footnotes will reveal, that it just might be Dershowitz's opinion after all.--Kmhkmh (talk) 11:56, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Dershowitz in the lead

My recollection of the affair seems a bit different. Dershowitz involvement was highly publicized, independent of whether it ultimately influenced the university's decision or not.

However personally I have no objections against moving that sourced line to a later chapter. But you cannot simply delete sourced and established (?) material from (the lead of an) article currently rated as good, in particular considering that it is under special observation and had a difficult past.

So please state your case on here on the discussion page and see whether you can get some consensus.--Kmhkmh (talk) 09:17, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

I think your opponents have a point that your edit makes it sound as if Dershowitz instigated the tenure denial, which AFAIK is misleading. I made a compromise edit, I think the wording could still use some work but it's a start. Gatoclass (talk) 10:49, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Well it is not my edit, I just reverted the deletion for the reasons stated above. As far as the current edit is concerned it is even more misleading, iirc did Dershovitz call the dean or some other guy at DePaul to ask them to deny Finklstein tenure, which is rather unusual considering that Dershowitz is not at DePaul. That does not mean that Dershowitz caused the denial or that his opinion even mattered, but nevertheless it turned out to be highly publicized attempt to influence the decision and indeed you could view that as an instigation.

In any case you somewhat misquote the source which clearly states, that Dershowitz attempted to block Finkelsteins tenure (Title :"Harvard Law Professor Seeks to Block Tenure for Adversary at DePaul U"), whereas you current version states something rather different.--Kmhkmh (talk) 11:06, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree it may have given too much weight to the incident but the mention in the lead was the only mention of Dershowitz's intent, which was the basis of the actions he was criticised for. I inserted a short sentence in the first paragraph of the relevant section so that there is context for why the University felt to need to issue a specific denial that Dershowitz had any effect. Hopefully this will satisfy WP:weight. Wayne (talk) 15:38, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

That's fine with me as long as the content stays in the article. Regarding the lead it is imho "just" a matter of taste/personal judgement, on which I have no real opinion, i.e. I can live with either.--Kmhkmh (talk) 10:22, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Personal Life Section?

Why is there no mention of his wife and/or Life Partner?