Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

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This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. 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Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 00:46, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Azerbaijani people

– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.

Filed by Verdia25 on 14:03, 30 June 2013 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Azerbaijani people (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Verdia25 (talk · contribs)
• Samaksasanian (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The issue lies in the first sentence of the description of the page. I think the ethnic group should be called 'Turkic-speaking people', while the other person thinks that they should be called 'Turkic people'.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Trying to discus and solve this matter on the Talk:Azerbaijani people page. I also reported the matter on the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring page, from which I got a response that it should be discussed on the talk page.

How do you think we can help?

I am not sure. I tried to discus the matter on the talk page but the other person did not go against my counterarguments. I believe it would be fair if it would be changed to the former description (Turkic-speaking people) if he does not have anything to say to my counterarguments.

Opening comments by Samaksasanian

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

this user complained me and User:Qara xan in edit warring‎ page: in 5 June 2013 [1] and 13 June 2013 [2] But admins Did not accept Complaint him. and please Contributions User:Verdia25→ [3] 40 edit and all of the edit is vandalizing and Complaints and conflicts

I edit by valid Sources, my Sources is a Encyclopædia Britannica → Azerbaijani People Explained → Azerbaijani, any member of a Turkic people living chiefly in the Republic of Azerbaijan and in the region of Azerbaijan in northwestern Iran- I explained Talk:Azerbaijani people but this User Does not accept Azerbaijani People is a Turkic people BUT User:Verdia25 say Azerbaijani People is Turkic Speaking people.

I'm editing the source by a Encyclopædia Britannica→ Azerbaijani People--So Azerbaijani people is a Turkic people and Azerbaijani Language from Turkic languages--Thanks--Samək^Talk 18:29, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

What ethnic group Azerbaijani people? Azerbaijani People are Oghuz Turks-- all of the People in the World Come from Of a branch.

Now I have a question, Azerbaijani People is?

1. Turkic people ??
2. Iranian People ??
3. Peoples of the Caucasus ??
4. NOW, Right now, Up now Any user who can read here, say What ethnic group Azerbaijani people????

I Have a very valid sources and added Azerbaijanis People article;→

in the end→ say to me Azerbaijani People is a Turkic people?? Or Iranian People ?? Or Peoples of the Caucasus ??--Samək^Talk 13:14, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Azerbaijani people discussion

Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

Hello! I am thehistorian10", a volunteer here. Thanks for the opening statements - they are of use. I think we can sort this dispute rather quickly. First, could Samaksasanian please answer this question: Is the Encyclopedia Britannica your ONLY source in this article, or do you use others with the Encyclopedia being your primary source? --The Historian (talk) 19:03, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I am also a regular editor here at DRN. The dispute over whether the lede of this article should say "Turkic", "Turkic-speaking", or simply "ethnic group", and what part Encyclopedia Britannica should play as a source in the article for this issue and for other issues, goes back to at least 2006 and involves many, probably dozens, of editors. Discussion of those subjects can be found in all 9 of the talk page archive pages for the article. Resolution of the dispute between just these two editors will be futile, as new participants in the debate will merely come along tomorrow. I am of the opinion that the only acceptable way to resolve this so as to bring stability to the article on, at least, this point is via request for comments. If a RFC closes with a clear consensus as to how this should be worked out (which, admittedly, is anything but certain), then at least a new clear consensus will have to be formed in order to change it in the future. Resolving disputes between the editors du jour is merely assisting axes to be ground further. I recommend that this be closed in favor of a RFC. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:32, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

First of, thank you for your comments! I hoped that the dispute would be solved, as this was my third report on this matter. The first two reports were on page Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. The first report was ignored and in the second one I was asked to resolve this in the 'talk page' which I already tried. I read the 'request for comments' page but I did not quite understand what I should do (English is by the way not my first language). Should I make a similar report like I did here on the page Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Request board? Thank you. Verdia25 (talk) 11:18, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't quite agree that this would be suitable for RFC, especially since you have already tried there, so I'm going to keep it open here. Now I've seen Samaksanian's response to my question (I'd prefer that he posted it in the "discussion"), I'd like to ask the same question to Verdia25 - what sources do you use to say that Azeris are not Turkic? By the way, Samaksanian, other than merely citing books, what specific pages do you use from those books? Also, whilst I'm thinking about it, what are the "agreed facts" - that is, what do the Parties agree on? Obviously, if parties agree on quite a lot, this means that our work here won't take too long, and if there is no agreeement whatsoever, this will make this process longer than necessary. It is therefore in Parties' interests to provide information on any agreements between them that are relevant to this dispute. --The Historian (talk) 15:55, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I did not have any sources that I used to say that they are not Turkic. I think that the original description used prior to May 31st was better because the new one, Turkic people, could be confusing to some people that the Azerbaijani are of Turkic origin, while in the wikipedia article it is state that they are of mixed origin. With the description 'Turkic speaking people' it is clear to all readers that they speak a Turkic language. I think Samaksanian and me both agree that the Azari language that Azerbaijani speak is, as stated on wikipedia, a language of the Turkic language family. To Samaksasanian, this isn't really a discussion on whether they are Turkic, Iranian or Caucasus people. It is on whether the description 'Turkic people' or 'Turkic speaking people' should be used. Verdia25 (talk) 14:53, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

All of the Ethnic groups Included total Ethnic groups. only write one total Ethnic groups. Personal Argument Prohibited--Samək^Talk 12:01, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Based on the fact that Samaksasanian is now not making sense, and since the entire dispute is about whether or not the Azeri people are Turkic speaking peoples, I think I know how we can go about resolving this. Azerbaijani language states that the "language family" of Azeri is "Turkic". The Turkic languages page states that Azeri is descended from the Weset Oghuz branch of Turkic. Azerbaijan states that the official language of Azerbaijan is Azeri, and, the articles above show that it is descended from the Turkic family. So, I think that the Azeris are Turkic speaking, and User:Verdia25 is correct in his primary assertion.

--The Historian (talk) 16:28, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Azerbaijani people is a Turkic people and Azerbaijani Language from Turkic languages. My Persian countrymen in Iran are Persian People is a Iranian People and Persian Language from Iranian languages.Sam?k^Talk 18:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

They may be Turkic people I don't deny that, but the original description 'Turkic speaking people' was valid too and I don't think it was needed to change it. The problem with the description 'Turkic people' is that it could be confusing to some people, as if the origin or ethnicity may be Turkic, while it is only the Azerbaijani's language that belongs to the Turkic language family; origin and ethnicity is mixed. There won't be any confusion if it would be 'Turkic speaking people'.Verdia25 (talk) 13:54, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Please, Personal Argument Prohibited-Sam?k^Talk 18:06, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Dispute reopened, Parties informed. --The Historian (talk) 19:54, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Dougweller I'm not sure where this comment goes, so I'll put it here. I came here because I protected a page for 2 days due to a dispute involving one of these editors and the general subject matter. There is some confusion here about the status of encyclopedias such as the Britannica. As a tertiary source it should be avoided in favor of specialist academic sources for articles such as these. We've discussed this before, eg [4]. (As an aside, we even have Wikipedia:Errors in the Encyclopædia Britannica that have been corrected in Wikipedia although that's not the major reason it shouldn't be used. This seems to have been a factor in this dispute. Dougweller (talk) 16:43, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Question: Is this still an active dispute? I see that there's been no formal RfC that has been advertised at appropriate wikiprojects. Also I read (in a very loose construction) the possibility of reading the WP:ARBAA2 riot act as it's a dispute over Azerbaijan and ethnicity. I strongly advise that editors follow the forms of civil dispute resolution. Hasteur (talk) 15:59, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Battle of Kursk#Use of term Blitzkrieg

– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.

Filed by EyeTruth on 20:38, 1 July 2013 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Battle of Kursk#Use of term Blitzkrieg (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• EyeTruth (talk · contribs)
• Gunbirddriver (talk · contribs)
• Binksternet (talk · contribs)
• Sturmvogel 66 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The term "blitzkrieg" has been present in the article for as long as possible. Starting in 2009, certain editors suggested that "blitzkrieg" should be excluded from the article. Such opinions got nowhere due to lack of reliable sources to support them. These were long before I made my first edit in the article. Not long ago, an editor began flushing out blitzkrieg from the article. I felt it wasn't too bad if he was just trying to tone its usage down. But recently, the editor decided to flush out the last instance of Blitzkrieg from the article. I opposed it and pointed out that there are three sources (cited in the article) that explicitly support the usage of the term in that very paragraph – i.e. the Citadel plan exemplified blitzkrieg. Note that this refers to just the intention of Citadel. The actual campaign turned out to be a crawl. The editor returned with the backup of three other editors and challenged the inclusion of the term in the article. I requested that they should bring forward the sources that claim that the Citadel plan didn't envision a blitzkrieg operation. Not a single source could be produced. However, they pointed out several other sources never called it a blitzkrieg despite dealing with Citadel. This is true. But I told them that silence on a subject doesn't translate to disapproval or approval for the subject. But they insisted that since the campaign, anyways, turned out not to be a blitzkrieg irrespective of whatever the intentions were, there was enough reason to completely exclude the term from the article. They concluded that they have the majority in editor consensus and therefore went ahead to flush out the term. I pointed out that we do not have any sources disputing this; we have sources supporting it; and all we have are some editors disputing it; therefore, when all said and done, there is not much justification for this consensus reached by the three editors. No one budged.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Extensive discussion (over 70 KB of readable prose) to clarify all the underlying rationale behind the opinions of the different parties.

How do you think we can help?

Opening comments by Gunbirddriver

The events are mischaracterized in EyeTruth’s summary.

The main issue is to write the article succinctly and in a manner which clearly communicates the events to the reader. The term “blitzkrieg” was not used by the German military to describe their operational methods, and is a term that is poorly defined and misunderstood. Further, the term does not match the battle in either its planning or execution.

The article was in the process of being re-worked with three editors (Sturmvogel 66, EyeTruth and myself) being the primary parties involved in the process. EyeTruth inserted into the article the phrase:

Unternehmen Zitadelle (Operation Citadel), was to be a classic blitzkrieg, eschewing attrition for a swift and efficient strike, featuring a double envelopment with pincers originating from the faces of the salient and directed at Kursk which would surround the majority of the Soviet defenders and seal off the salient

As shown here. The description offered above does not describe classic Blitzkrieg warfare. This was removed in a rewrite. EyeTruth then inserted it again here.

This was reverted and he was told to start a discussion about it. He then reverted again here, claiming that no one had started the discussion topic for him. It was pointed out to him that the format is Bold Edit, Revert and Discuss, with the onus being on him to initiate the discussion. The discussion was entered into to the tune of about 100 kilobyte. Four editors (Sturmvogel 66, Diannaa, Herostratus and myself) weighed in saying they were opposed to the inclusion of the term. They provided various reasons and sources. All of these were rejected out of hand by EyeTruth, who then on his own recognizance and without the support of any other editor inserted the phrase into the text again here. Another 100 kilobytes of discussion ensued, and editor Binksternet removed the phrase. EyeTruth then reverted again here, which Binkersternet reverted, and EyeTruth reverted again here, which had to be reverted back by Sturmvogel 66. I submitted a complaint against EyeTruth for tendentious editing here. It was at this point that EyeTruth submitted this topic for discussion here at Dispute resolution. He is a tad late for this step, and none of the other editors have softened in their opinion on the matter. If anything, the experience has hardened them into more strongly wishing to oppose.

It would appear EyeTruth is using this forum to again assert his opinion. I doubt he has any real interest in resolving anything, unless it is resolved to align with his own views. It’s a sad affair, and most of us are quite tired of it.Gunbirddriver (talk) 23:44, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Discussion does not take place in opening comments. They are for the opening comment of the named user only. Discuss in the appropriate section below.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Woow... take it easy there. You didn't even inform me that you submitted a complaint. I'm just knowing about this now. And you're really making this into your personal war. Also, what I described above is exactly as it happened. Do you mind pointing out any statement I made in the above description that is false? Also in your post above, you categorically failed to mention that none of you have provided a single sources to support your contention for the inclusion of the term.EyeTruth (talk) 00:26, 2 July 2013 (UTC) Really? You don’t recall this: User talk:EyeTruth#Problems_working_on_the_Battle_of_Kursk_page.? What? That was a notification from 18 June for a complaint you posted the same day. WTH. You posted another one on 1 July and even up till now have not notified me. What kind of twisted game are you trying to play here? You're making this more and more too personal, which is not a good idea. But whatever, it's no big deal. Let's no clog up this discussion with this side story.EyeTruth (talk) 00:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC) It's all part of the same complaint. I asked the administrators how to add to the initial complaint and they instructed me to make a new entry. You were notified that a complaint was filed on June 18th. A result from that complaint is still pending. It is hard to see how you could consider yourself an injured party, when the notice was placed directly on your talk page. What more would you expect me to do, notify you that I am updating the complaint? That's a bit much, don't you think? Gunbirddriver (talk) 04:01, 3 July 2013 (UTC) And I'm supposed to know about this "new entry" (a new section) you created on some noticeboard? Oh yeah, I forgot, I know everything. Psssshh. So much BS. EyeTruth (talk) 17:35, 3 July 2013 (UTC) You are again mischaracterizing events. How do you expect people to consider anything that you are saying to be valid when your mischaracterizations are shown to be false? Look, it’s nothing personal on my part, I just want to get on with improving the article. That’s what most of the editors want. Here is what you said on my talk page back in the middle of May: Unless you mean that we should avoid the use of the "Blitzkrieg" altogether, to give way for more universally acceptable phrases? If that is the case, then I won't object since it seems some readers still get nonplussed at the use of "Blitzkrieg" in such a way, even though I think it is not necessary and could be tedious making all the changes. EyeTruth (talk) 21:49, 15 May 2013 (UTC) Gunbirddriver (talk) 19:27, 2 July 2013 (UTC) Yes, removing the term "Blitzkrieg" from the article is a good idea, for the reasons I mentioned above. Gunbirddriver (talk) 19:27, 2 July 2013 (UTC) Heads up, those "some readers" is you. Also you conveniently forgot to include the sentence that followed: "But if you mean wholly eliminating any passage in the article with "Blitzkrieg", then I doubt anyone will consider such a crusade acceptable." I believe the agreement I reached for is crystal-clear. EyeTruth (talk) 00:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC) Back in May you insisted on eliminating the term. You didn't even give any legit reasons besides: "Soviet plans and preparations [section] should not include a paragraph about how the "Blitzkrieg" had never been stopped before. I removed that paragraph because it was misleading in content and misplaced in the article." EyeTruth (talk) 00:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC) Your main reason was that things were all over the place in the article. On those grounds, I cut you a slack back then. But that was before I realized a lot more about your modus operandi. I made that clear in the my post dated 01:54, 18 June 2013 (UTC) on Talk:Battle of Kursk#Use of term Blitzkrieg. EyeTruth (talk) 00:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC) Seems you did not really mean what you told me. Look, an inordinate amount of the editors' time has been burned up on this question, and they find it to be unproductive. For the proof just look at your own talk page. Gunbirddriver (talk) 19:27, 2 July 2013 (UTC) I only know of Sturmvogel on my talkpage. I already told you that you may not want to keep referring to yourself as "other editors" or "inordinate amount of the editors" as you always often do. I've said it before. EyeTruth (talk) 00:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC) PS. Also Diannaa only opposed its inclusion only because she couldn't verify that it was in the cited sources. Obviously, it is in the cited sources, but she never returned to tell us whether she was able to verify it. EyeTruth (talk) 00:36, 2 July 2013 (UTC) Here is what Diannaa said: I agree that the Battle of Kursk does not fit the usual definition of Blitzkreig (23:39, 17 June 2013).Gunbirddriver (talk) But you also conveniently forgot to also add her final statement: "You are wrong when you say we have to prove that it was not Blitzkreig or it stays in. You are the one who wants to add the content, so you are the one who has to defend its addition. We can't use the term Blitzkreig to describe the German attack unless at least one of the sources uses the term." And to begin with, Dianna didn't have it together during that discussion, as we all know her claim that none of the cited sources supported the inclusion of the term is blatantly false. Unfortunately, she never returned to conclude what she started. At any rate, we had three secondary sources supporting its inclusion back then, but we now have about 6 sources supporting it thanks to Binksternet. EyeTruth (talk) 00:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC) She then asked for the sourcing materials. You are mischaracterizing what others are saying, and not in an accidental fashion, but always in a manner that would seem to support your own position. People do not like that. It is unlikely that you will be able to gain their support when you treat them in this poor fashion. Gunbirddriver (talk) 19:27, 2 July 2013 (UTC) You have still categorically failed to point out any incorrect statement in the description I submitted. EyeTruth (talk) 00:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC) No, you just refuse to recognize them. The entire characterization you offered was false from beginning to end. How then can we help you see the problem? I do not entirely understand the issue with you, but I know that you will see this response as another attack against you personally, and a marker that I have some interest in specifically opposing you. That has been the case all along. Really, I don't want anything to do with you. It is of little use trying to discuss things with you, as you do not seem have the capacity to honestly converse and apparently have very little ability to view things from another person's perspective. I have bent over backward and patiently tried to explain things to you. I cannot further help you resolve the issue. Gunbirddriver (talk) 03:51, 3 July 2013 (UTC) OK then, it should be very simple for you to point out just one false statement in the description. If you can't, then you're simply grasping at straws. I doubt there is anybody who won't be able to see through it. EyeTruth (talk) 17:35, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Binksternet

Blitzkrieg is a difficult-enough topic to define, with multiple observers describing it in various ways. Classic blitzkrieg is exemplified by Germany's lightning invasion of France in 1940, the pushing of the British to Dunkirk, and the initial attack on the Soviet Union in 1941. Other than these examples which are agreed upon by all observers, the concept is too muddled and debated to be applied specifically to Kursk as a "classic blitzkrieg" in the manner preferred by EyeTruth.

Instead, most of those historians who describe Kursk as some form of blitzkrieg say that it was a failed blitzkrieg, not a classic example. In M.K. Barbier's Kursk 1943, Barbier says on page 10 that the Germans tried blitzkrieg tactics in Poland in 1939; a position with few historian supporters. Barbier then says that Kursk was intended to be blitzkrieg by the Germans but it failed because the Soviets had found the proper defense for it. Hedley Paul Willmott writes in The Great Crusade, page 300, that Kursk was where the blitzkrieg myth was broken because of the effective Soviet defense in depth. Niklas Zetterling and Anders Frankson say the same thing in Kursk 1943: A Statistical Analysis, page xi. Even Glantz who is EyeTruth's main source describes Kursk as the death of blitzkrieg. Kursk cannot be called "classic blitzkrieg". Binksternet (talk) 01:41, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. This is the point. It was intended to be another blitzkrieg but it failed epically. Obviously Citadel was a crawl. It was no blitzkrieg, but it was expected to be. Many army-level (and above) orders were all talking of shattering the soviet defenders in one, two or three days, and achieve operational freedom. Starting from day one of the offensive, those expectation and dreams were shattered. EyeTruth (talk) 02:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Sturmvogel 66

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Talk:Battle of Kursk#Use of term Blitzkrieg discussion

Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

Hello, I am Smileguy91, a DRN volunteer. Consensus has been reached, but there is WP:CCC. Hopefully a wider consensus can be reached with this DRN post. smileguy91^talk 22:50, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. BTW, I what to know whether consensus is decided by number of editors voting for a motion or is it by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy? I'm not very old on here. And what I read in the policies about consensus seem to differ a lot from what I hear from other editors. So I would really want to know what is the "unspoken" norm. EyeTruth (talk) 23:17, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

A bit of both, votes alone dont constitute consensus, especially when just in the form of a simple majority (not well over 50%). -- Nbound (talk) 23:19, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I see. So number of votes does matter to an extent. Thanks. Everyone seemed to be playing along that unspoken norm even though the policy never explicitly said so. I've been wondering ever since. EyeTruth (talk) 01:28, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

At first I was considering suggesting that this be moved to WP:RFC, since it's not really a dispute, per se, but now I believe it belongs here. smileguy91^talk 14:38, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

My personal — and I emphasize that this is just personal — quick rule of thumb for consensus is 3 to 1 if the 3 have an overwhelming, no-one-could-reasonably-disagree argument, 4 to 1 with a somewhat weaker but still pretty strong argument, and 5 to 1 with an argument which is merely reasonable, and in each case that's if the 1 has a merely reasonable argument. If the 1 has a strong or very strong argument, higher ratios are required. Theoretically, if the 1 has one of those overwhelming, no-one-could-reasonably-disagree arguments then the number on the other side shouldn't make any difference, but you have to then ask whether if his argument is so great why isn't anyone else buying it. Note that this analysis only applies when there is no solution mandated by policy. When policy mandates a solution, policy wins, unless a local exception is established, but that also has to be done by consensus. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 22:01, 2 July 2013 (UTC) (a DRN volunteer)

Your personal rule of thumb is judicious and fair IMO. I have another question about the voting thing. If the minority editors has several reputable secondary sources that explicitly support their side of the argument, will those sources also be counted each as one vote? EyeTruth (talk) 17:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

It seems the first volunteer has quit. So what now? EyeTruth (talk) 02:24, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello all, I'm the specialized DRN closer. I'm typically called in when DRN threads have gone a bit too long. I'd like to see if I understand the problem. On one side there's a request to add the term blitzkrieg to the article on the grounds that some sources report the intention of the battle. On the other side, there's a request to remove the term due to none of the sources describing the battle use the term. Is this correct? Hasteur (talk) 17:30, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Nearly correct, but not exactly. On one side there's a request to retain the term blitzkrieg in the article on the grounds that some sources report the intention of the battle as such. On the other side, there's a request to remove the term because some other sources describing the battle do not use the term.EyeTruth (talk) 22:07, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Analogy: sources A, B, C describe courage as a virtue; whereas sources D, E, F also describe courage but are silent on whether it is a virtue or not. Therefore, since not every source on the subject of courage describes it as a virtue and since we (as editors) can easily see that courage may not always be a virtue depending on the circumstances, therefore we can't include it in the article. (Albeit not a single source that argues that courage is not a virtue has been brought forward). In this analogy, "courage" is "Operation Citadel", and "virtue" is "blitzkrieg". The thing about "depending on the circumstances" in the analogy represents the argument that Operation Citadel, irrespective of the original intention, turned out to be the opposite of blitzkrieg (and sources explicitly agree including those that described the intention of the operation as a blitzkrieg). EyeTruth (talk) 22:32, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Morgellons

– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.

Filed by Zad68 on 03:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Morgellons (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Erythema (talk · contribs)
• Drgao (talk · contribs)
• TechBear (talk · contribs)
• Arthur Rubin (talk · contribs)
• Dbrodbeck (talk · contribs)
• Dawn Bard (talk · contribs)
• Zad68 (talk · contribs)
• Scray (talk · contribs)
• Garrondo (talk · contribs)
• Judgeking (talk · contribs)
• Sailsbystars (talk · contribs)
• Brangifer (talk · contribs)
• 137.111.13.200 (talk · contribs)
• 198.199.134.100 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Current scientific consensus from large, influential organizations like the CDC is that individuals with Morgellons have a delusional belief that they are infested with parasites. There is general agreement across all parties that this is indeed the scientific consensus. There is a proposal to add new content to the article; the policy cited in support of the addition is WP:NPOV. The new proposed content discusses a new theory for the origin of Morgellons, stating that there is an actual infectious parasite. This issue basically is that many editors do not agree that the sources cited meet WP:MEDRS, the medical sourcing guideline. There is general agreement that if there were WP:MEDRS-compliant reliable secondary sources supporting the new theory that such content could be included. But many editors state that as the sources are not reliable, and because WP:NPOV only applies to views presented in reliable sources, the WP:NPOV policy cannot be used in support of including the actual parasite theory.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

LOTS and LOTS of discussion on the Talk page

How do you think we can help?

Determine consensus as to whether the sources proposed are indeed authoritative WP:MEDRS-compliant secondary sources such that per WP:NPOV the mention of the parasite theory is warranted.

Opening comments by Erythema

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

In a nut shell. The actual dispute is more complicated than described by the others involved with this dispute indicate. Morgellons is a controversial illness. There are 2 POVs represented in medical literature. This is evident with a PubMed search. 1 POV is that the illness is delusional in etiology. The other is that it is not and there are publications indicating that it is caused by a bacterial infection. This bacterium, Borrelia, is related to syphilis and thus explains the psychiatric manifestations experience by some patients. The predominant POV is that it is delusional, however the POV that it is infectious in etiology represents a significant minority POV and thus it deserves proportional representation. The problems are 2 fold: One, content from the infectious POV has been blocked, even for one paragraph to be included, even while leaving the existing text untouched: Two, there is a great deal of bias in the current article. It has been carefully edited to maximize the opinion that it is delusional in etiology. The references are largely cherry-picked and do not follow WP:MEDRS policy. Over half of the references come from Popular Press, i.e. newspaper articles, TV interviews and the like. One of these is even an interview with an "anonymous dermatologist" in Popular Mechanics magazine and lacks verifiability, as do the rest. These are clearly not appropriate secondary sources. Those that are from peer-reviewed medical journals are predominantly opinion pieces -- again they are not appropriate secondary sources. The remaining few are original research. This is an area of medicine undergoing active research and as such there are not many (if any) suitable secondary sources. I have proposed to add ONE small paragraph from the infectious POV on the grounds that a significant minority view needs to be represented for NPOV. They are original research, but WP:MEDRS allows original research when secondary sources are lacking. The current article has used a few original research papers. WP:MEDRS encourages the use of on-line medical journals as they can be accessed by readers, but I have been told that they are unreliable (and numerous other things). There have been false statements made that are damaging to the reputations of the medical journals publishing papers representing the infectious POV that I find offensive and objectionable. NPOV cannot be achieved as long as double standards of policy application are applied to the two viewpoints. I have repeatedly asked for reasonable and objective justification, but have yet to receive an answer that makes sense. Mostly when I bring up a valid point there is no response at all. I am a new user and WP indicates I should be welcomed and treated with patience. Instead I have been bullied and treated with hostility. If fair and proportionate representation of both POVs cannot be achieved then the current article should be deleted on the grounds that the references used to not meet WP policy.Erythema (talk) 14:49, 6 July 2013 (UTC)Erythema

Opening comments by Drgao

This dispute relates to the article on Morgellons disease, a disease involving skin symptoms and mental symptoms.

A severe non-neutrality exists in this article, as I now describe.

Amongst researchers, there are two competing views on the nature of Morgellons disease: viewpoint (1) says that Morgellons is a real skin disease manifesting body-wide skin lesions and other skin symptoms, likely caused by an infection, and also involving some concomitant mental symptoms; viewpoint (2) says that Morgellons is not a real physical disease at all, but purely a psychiatric condition called delusional parasitosis, in which sufferers self-inflict their skin wounds.

This dispute relates to the fact that viewpoint (1) gets almost no mention at all in the article, and viewpoint (2) not only dominates the vast majority of the article, but furthermore, viewpoint (2) is presented as if it is an established fact.

WP:WEIGHT requires that articles represent all significant viewpoints published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources. So in order to determine the precise prominence of each of the two viewpoints, I have performed a full scientific literature survey of reliable sources, and by enumerating all relevant studies, I counted that there is 1 secondary study, and 9 primary studies supporting viewpoint (1), and 3 secondary studies, and 15 primary studies supporting viewpoint (2).

You can the full details of all the studies I counted up HERE.

Thus from these figures which quantify the prominence of each viewpoint, it is clear that viewpoint (1) should be given around ⅓ of the article text space, and viewpoint (2) around ⅔ of the article text space. But at present, viewpoint (1) occupies only a few percent of the text space.

Myself (Drgao) and editor Erythema say this severe imbalance in the article completely flouts the NPOV requirements of Wikipedia, but all the other editors disagree with us, and they prevent us from adding new material to the article. Drgao (talk) 02:16, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

MInor updates made on July 7th. Drgao (talk) 21:56, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by TechBear

I had gotten involved with the article in late May, in response to one editor trying to bring in sources from journals known to be "pay to publish." Soon after, a new editor stepped in with a different set of references, asserting that they showed the established scientific consensus to be wrong and demanding that the article be rewritten accordingly. I and others pointed out the problems in new editor's sources; rather than seek out better sources, this person fell to ad hominem attacks and accusations that Wikipedia was trying to "suppress important information" (actual quote.)

I am willing to concede that the current consensus may be wrong; it certainly would not be the first time that long-standing conclusions fell to new research. However, it is my view that any evidence attempting to overturn an established position must meet a high standard of quality, and that this is especially important with regards to medical science, where the well being and even lives of people may hang in the balance. The evidence must come from reputable research sponsors, be reviewed by research experts in the field who have the skill and expertise to evaluate the methodology and conclusions, and be published in a well respected journal. It is my opinion that the sources this editor wishes to use simply do not meet this minimum standard of quality, and therefore should not be used as the basis for rewriting established consensus.

TechBear | Talk | Contributions 04:03, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Arthur Rubin

I agree with the opening comments by Scray; however I have an objection to the formulation of the dispute. It's not "new proposed content" or a "new theory". The theory was first proposed by Mary, and it's not even new to the article. It was removed from the article when no WP:MEDRS sources could be found. They still haven't been found. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 05:20, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Dbrodbeck

There are simply no good WP:MEDRS secondary sources that say that any of these WP:FRINGE views have any use. If we include this material we would be giving WP:UNDUE weight to these fringe ideas. Many of us have tried, in vain, to explain these policies to the couple of WP:SPAs who want this material included. The ad hominem attacks and personal attacks in general, while they have toned down some, did not help matters. This material does not belong in the article, that is the bottom line. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:33, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Dawn Bard

I think the article is appropriately neutral and well sourced, and I think any objective review of the page and the talk page with WP:MEDRS, WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE in mind will support this. Sailsbystars below has presented some excellent points. This odd press release, which essentially alleges a Wikipedia conspiracy to keep the truth about Morgellons hidden, predated some of the contentious editing and discussions that have led up to this dipute resolution. I think what we really have here is a broad, policy-based consensus that the article should stand as it is for now. A couple of very passionate, largely single-purpose editors disagree with this consensus, but their efforts on the talk page have failed thus far to change the larger consensus. Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 17:06, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Zad68

My view is that the sources offered to support the "genuine infestation/infection" view are insufficient to rise above WP:FRINGE and it would give undue prominence or legitimacy to a non-accepted fringe view to include in the article. There have been two groups of sources offered. The first included three sources, listed in the discussion here. The comments regarding the unworthiness of f1000research and the Dove Press journals there are accurate: the reliability of the journal articles doesn't meet WP:MEDRS and are not MEDLINE indexed, or even PubMed indexed at all. The list of sources given here is an excellent and comprehensive list of PubMed-indexed articles regarding the subject, and the editor who put it together is to be thanked, but the analysis offered is not in line with consensus interpretation of WP:MEDRS. Per policy, primary sources are not to be used to support a WP:DUEWEIGHT (part of WP:NPOV) argument. So, looking only at secondary sources, we have three up-to-date MEDLINE-indexed secondary sources stating Morgellons is delusional; we have a single MEDLINE indexed secondary source from 2006 that does not meet WP:MEDRS per WP:MEDDATE. This leaves three secondary sources supporting delusional, zero supporting infection. (This list also does not include other sources like the CDC, which also does not support infection.) As there are no WP:MEDRS-compliant secondary sources supporting infection, per policy the article should not cover it. (Note I will be away most of the weekend, back maybe Saturday or Sunday night.) Zad68 19:34, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Scray

I hope that this process will help us move past the current cycle, which consumes energy (and has often included ad hominem attacks) but does not seem to be progressing. The article currently addresses the minority viewpoint that Morgellon disease has an infectious etiology, with due weight considering the strong consensus in high-quality sources that this is a delusional parasitosis (rather than infection) syndrome. Primary reports in low-quality journals should not be used to refute the strong consensus in high-quality secondary sources. -- Scray (talk) 04:01, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Garrondo

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by Judgeking

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by Sailsbystars

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

So I've never been to one of these before, but I think the most relevant thing I can do is quote my comparison of the proposed sources and existing sources for the article, and why the former should not have undue weight in the article. Sailsbystars (talk) 07:17, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

... there are some commonalities in all science fields. Dubious research gets published all the time (hence the phrase "publishing in a peer reviewed journal is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for acceptance") in every field. There are several common threads of fringe research that cross all disciplines of research:

1. Fringe research is often published in less well-known journals. The disease associations for Morgellons are published in Clin Cosmet Investig Dermatol. and f1000research which may or may not have rigorous peer review. The CDC study was published in PLoS One, arguable one of if not the most prestigious medical journal. Multiple other studies have appeared in the American Journal of Psychiatry, the official journal of the psychiatric society supporting a psychological diagnosis.
2. If research is accepted, it will be cited by other people. Hinkle 2011 has 9 citations by other groups. Pearson 2012 (CDC study) has 13 citations by other groups. Middelveen and Stricker 2011("Filament formation associated with spirochetal....") has 7 citations, but of those only two of those aren't self-citations, and those two both disagreed with the conclusion of the study. Lack of favorable external citations is bad.
3. Conversely, excessive self-citation is usually not a sign of a healthy research programme
4. Lastly, when the researchers have to make a press release railing against wikipedia's biases in a desperate attempt to get included in the article, that's usually not a good sign (and that's actually how I came to be interested this article)

So that's how I can evaluate, using objective criteria, how accepted an idea is within a scientific field, even one I don't know much about. So how could you convince me this infectious etiology material should be included? Showing me some citations to their studies from outside their research group by other research groups that support their findings would be a good start, and I think would be fairly persuasive to other editors on this page as well. Sailsbystars (talk) 21:40, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Opening comments by BullRangifer

An important aspect of this dispute is whether advocates of a fringe idea (that Morgellons is a real dermatologic condition, rather than a form of delusional parasitosis) can use Wikipedia to promote that POV as a mainstream POV, or of at least equal worth to the mainstream scientific POV on the subject (which is that it's a form of delusional parasitosis). They believe that NPOV is violated when they are not given equal due weight. Sorry, but that's not true. They fail to understand NPOV.

They constantly use primary studies to make their point, in violation of MEDRS. This is not the place to make cutting edge pronouncements. For one thing, being on the cutting edge means you're on the wrong side of the knife. Yes, that's a joke, but for Wikipedia, it's the way we apply our sourcing policies. We are always supposed to be "behind the curve," never on the leading edge of publishing new facts. IF (that's a big IF) this ever turns out to be proven to be a new dermatologic condition, the major dermatology organizations will state that fact in unequivocal terms.

When that happens, and not before then, the POV pushed by these believers will have to remain the fringe position, in opposition to the mainstream one, which happens to be that these editors are pushing a delusional belief. Until then, their POV will be documented, but not given equal weight with the current scientific consensus. The article content and due weight balance will indeed change when large literature reviews that are not affiliated with those who make a living from pushing this fringe POV start to clearly document it as a new disease. Independent replication of research results must happen again and again. Then we'll definitely document that fact, and Morgellons will be presented here at Wikipedia as a new disease. It will happen, but a short time AFTER it happens in the real world. These editors must be patient and stop disrupting Wikipedia. They are a huge time sink and need to be blocked, or, at the least, immediately topic banned.

That several of them are delusional happens to be a fact, since several of them have admitted to being sufferers, and even admitted to having mental health issues. Too bad about that, but this is not the place to push a POV based on primary sources, often from "paid to publish" sources, or fringe scientists affiliated with the modern creator of the term "Morgellons". -- Brangifer (talk) 06:23, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by 137.111.13.200

The research group that released the content that is being discussed in this section was funded through a foundation that solicits donations ostensibly from Morgellons sufferers. There is therefore a financial interest in the dissemination of this particular group's content. The articles themselves are primary sources, which significantly contradict other primary and secondary sources. This is most likely due to methodological differences which are best judged through secondary sources, and thus we should wait until these become available. The author of the study discussed authored a press release targeting editors on the Morgellons wikipedia page. I am lead to believe it likely that this author is pressuring editors on the talk page to include their work on the main page, under the username "Erythema". The anonymity of wikipedia users is an important dimension, however if someone is trying to insert their own work into an article, especially when that work is challenged as a reliable source, then the potential conflict of interests should be addressed. I don't think avoiding the question serves anyone's purposes in this case.137.111.13.200 (talk) 04:51, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by 198.199.134.100

At this point, I no longer find it reasonable to assume good faith on the part of the editors favoring the inclusion of fringe research. One of them has now created a sockpuppet account to try and "mediate" the dispute. Erythema shows strong signs of actually being one of the fringe researchers who recently issued a press release decrying Wikipedia's policies (and did not deny it when directly asked). Drgao is operating under the idea that because the concensus of the medical community now supports the existence of some other condition that Drgao suffers from, we should include fringe research about Morgellons; Drgao also repeatedly misrepresents studies or quotes from studies that do not support his views as doing so and even claimed that an opinion piece published well before any modern primary sources about Morgellons (the other two predate the current scientific method, one predates Pasteur) was a "secondary source". Neither has contributed to any other Wikipedia article. There are one or two other editors in favor of fringe research, but they don't appear to be meaningfully contributing to the discussion. I realize the named editors sincerely believe Morgellons is a non-delusional condition, but deliberate dishonesty is not a valid method of seeking editor concensus. 198.199.134.100 (talk) 00:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Correction: Drgao does get involved in editing other pages on similar/related topics. 198.199.134.100 (talk) 02:45, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Morgellons discussion

Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

• Hitherto uninvolved editor who stummbled across this DRN. I've taken the time to read the extensive discussion on the article talk page and examone the sources, and I have to agree that all of the sources proposed for the fringe view fall far short of WP:MEDRS. In short, there is not mention of the fringe "research" in reliable medical sources. Most of it has been published in non-peer reveiwed publication that would never be read by mainstream medical researchers in the first place. The material that Drgao and Erythema would like to add to this article is thus unreliably sourced, and violates WP:NPOV, especially WP:WEIGHT and WP:GEVAL. It clearly falls under WP:FRINGE. I just see a lot of deadhorse argumentation and WP:IDHT on the article talk page, and I'm really having a hard time assuming good faith. I don't see much point in further discussion unless WP:MEDRS sources are produced. Consensus on the talk page is already pretty clear that the sources produced so far are unreliable, and I agree. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 21:33, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Please note the following ANI discussion regarding this DRN: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Disruptive_editing_and_intervention. Zad68 15:27, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Please wait until the problem with mediation is sorted out, and for the process to be formally restarted. We cannot continue this discussion while the disruption continues. 15:54, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Invoking mediation controls: For the present time, in light of the controversy pending here, I am assuming the role of mediator here and invoking the rules set out at Wikipedia:MEDIATION#Control_of_mediation to exercise the right to edit this discussion as if it were my own user talk page, which includes the right to refactor, strike, or remove any edits which I feel are inappropriate. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:58, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening statements: Editors who have not yet made opening statements should feel free to go ahead and make them in their respective sections, above, and are advised to do so as promptly as possible. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:43, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Update: It would appear that InLoveNoi has indeed withdrawn as a DRN volunteer (actually, has ceased editing since being told by a sysop to withdraw or be blocked). I have de-collapsed, but left closed, the foregoing discussion and will await further opening statements. I have, further, redacted via strikeout all procedural discussions above so as to leave only discussions about the substance of the dispute. While the remaining discussions are premature and I will not allow them to continue at this time, they are what they are and they should not be removed from the record. If discussion does proceed, then we can give them as much or as little weight as they may deserve. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:21, 5 July 2013 (UTC) Further update: InLoveNoi is now indefinitely blocked as a sockpuppet. — TransporterMan (TALK) 21:46, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I have just deleted a comment by Drgao, a party to this dispute, added to the discussion here before this case was opened for discussion. I — reluctantly — retained the one by Dominus Vobisdu, though I moved it into the closed section, because s/he was not a party to the dispute. All further comments of a nonprocedural nature in this "Talk:Morgellons discussion" will be summarily deleted if made before this case is opened for discussion. — TransporterMan (TALK) 00:37, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I have now deleted all the preliminary edits by InLoveNoi and Rodneye9110 as both accounts have been indefinitely blocked as sockpuppets of blocked user Ryanspir. In the process, I have also deleted some response edits by legitimate participants here, but all that were deleted were merely responsive to the attempts by Ryanspir to manipulate this process and did not make any substantive comments on the substance of this case. If anyone objects, please drop a note on my user talk page and we'll discuss working your comments back in. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:39, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Inquiry to all parties

We're waiting for the last two listed editors to give opening statements, but while we're waiting I need to raise this issue: The DRN guidelines say:

Volunteers who have had past dealings with the article, subject matter, or with the editors involved in a dispute which would bias their response must not act as a volunteer on that dispute. If any editor objects to a volunteer's participation in a dispute, the volunteer must either withdraw or take the objection to the DRN talk page to let the community comment upon whether or not the volunteer should continue in that dispute.

As long as I've been doing dispute resolution, I have no doubt that I have at least crossed paths with some of the editors in this case. I will represent to you that to the extent that I have done so I have not formed any opinions or impressions which would cause me to be biased either against them or in their favor. Indeed, I don't have any particular memories of any of you except that some of your usernames seem familiar to me. That does not mean that I have not had strong interactions and even confrontations or commiserations with some of you. It only means that I don't remember them if I did. If any come back to mind, I will immediately disclose them here. (If anyone wants to check my prior interactions with everyone here, more power to you: You can use the tool here to do so. Let me know if you find anything.} But my point is this: If you want to lodge an objection to my further participation, do it now, not later, unless I subsequently discuss a connection. Also, if any of you have had interactions with me, good or bad, which might bias me please say so now and I'll specifically check those out. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 21:58, 6 July 2013 (UTC) PS: Feel free to answer or address this inquiry, below, but do not begin discussing the dispute yet. — TM

I have no issue with you moderating. Can we get started? We're only missing statements from Garrondo and Judgeking, and their involvement in this discussion at the article Talk page was minimal. I count only 3 comments from Garrondo, all over 1 month old, and Garrondo has been editing since the DRN notice so it does not look like Garrondo is interested. I count only 2 comments from Judgeking, most recent was 10 days ago, Judgeking hasn't edited since 27 June. And based on their involvement at the article, their viewpoints are already being represented here by many other editors already. Zad68 16:55, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm inclined to feel the same way. I'm going to give them until tomorrow to weigh in or for anyone else to lodge an objection to my mediation and if neither occurs, we'll probably forge ahead. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Initial ground rules

The following are adopted pursuant to Wikipedia:MEDIATION#Control_of_mediation, and are subject to supplementation, revision, or revocation at any time.

• You must check this page every day you edit Wikipedia (and at least once every 48 hours if you don't have an edit during that time) and respond to any inquiries which I make. If you're going to be unavailable for awhile and unable to check this and/or respond, say so and I'll decide whether to put this on hold or move forward without you.
• At least for the present time, this will move forward in a question and answer manner in which I ask questions or make comments and request you to respond. Some inquiries may be to individuals, others may be to groups or factions. Do not respond to or comment upon responses or answers made by others unless I request it. If you do, I reserve the right to delete those responses. Only answer the question that I ask, do not jump ahead or say anything else. Again, I reserve the right to delete any answers which go beyond the questions that I ask.
• Be civil. Do not comment about one another. If you wish to comment or complain about another user's conduct, motivations, identity, or anything else, take it to an administrator (I'm not one, by the way), to WP:RFC/U, or to WP:ANI, but don't raise it here (do drop a note on my user talk page that you're doing that, however, as I may want to put a hold on the proceedings here until that conduct matter is resolved.) Listen up: This rule will be strictly enforced. Don't say, "I didn't mean it that way" or "I was just angry", just don't do it. Comments made in violation of this rule will be deleted the first time; the second time, either you or me will be leaving this discusion.
• Except for Judgeking and Garrondo (who can still make opening statements), the opening statements are now closed. Do not change or supplement them further.
• I tend to be courteous and say "please" before requests, instructions, or rules. Do not take my use of "please" to mean that what follows it is optional. Indeed, none of my requests, instructions, or rules are optional; if I mean something to be optional, I'll make that unmistakeably clear with a qualifier such as, "You don't have to answer this if you don't want to" or "This isn't required, but" or something like that.
• The IP editors must keep up with the IP's they're editing from and let us know here if they change. This isn't required, but I would strongly prefer that they create accounts, identify them with their IP, and sign in to participate here.

Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:37, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Beginning the mediation

Read the "Initial ground rules" section, above. Your continued participation in this mediation constitutes complete acceptance of the foregoing rules.

As I understand it, this is a NPOV dispute with certain editors wishing to include material in the article saying that Morgellons is an actual, as opposed to mental, disease or condition. Other editors oppose that inclusion because they claim that the sources are insufficiently reliable to include it. Although one editor, Erythema, also claims that the existing material about Morgellons being a mental condition is also inadequately sourced, I do not see that as the primary matter in dispute in this case except perhaps as a question of what balance to give the competing views if the real-disease theory proves to be includable. From my point of view, to try to decide how much space and/or weight to give the real-disease theory before deciding whether or not it can be included at all is putting the horse before the cart and I do not intend to discuss or allow discussion of that issue until the other issue is resolved, at which time we may go on to the proper-weight issue.

• Inquiry #1 @Everyone: As I analyze it, Erythema and Drgao support the inclusion of the material in question. All other participants here oppose it due to lack of adequate sources. Please let me know, below, if I've got that wrong. Don't answer at all if I have it right.
• Inquiry #2 @Everyone: If there any sources whose reliability is in question other than the following, please list them below:

• The mystery of Morgellons disease: infection or delusion? (2006) MEDLINE Full paper
• Morgellons: a novel dermatological perspective as the multisystem infective disease borreliosis (2013).
• Association of spirochetal infection with Morgellons disease (2013).
• Characterization and evolution of dermal filaments from patients with Morgellons disease (2013)
• Morgellons Disease: A Chemical and Light Microscopic Study (2012).
• Filament formation associated with spirochetal infection: a comparative approach to Morgellons disease (2011)
• Delusions may not always be delusions (2010, Editorial) MEDLINE Full paper
• Morgellons disease: Analysis of a population with clinically confirmed microscopic subcutaneous fibers of unknown etiology (2010)
• Morgellons disease, illuminating an undefined illness: a case series (2009)
• Myiasis, fillan, and the morgellons (1946) MEDLINE Full paper

• Inquiry #3 @Everyone: There are three ways we can approach this mediation:

Method A (default) — Classic Mediation: A traditional mediation where I try to get everyone to come to agreement.

Method B — Opinion: I can read all the arguments and merely provide a third-party neutral opinion, which everyone is free to accept or reject, but which closes the mediation on the point on which I opine.

Method C — Arbitration by agreement: Same as #2, but everyone involved here agrees that they will abide by my opinion and quit discussing the issue in dispute until something changes in the real world (for example, new studies or sources being done and becoming available) which renders it inapplicable.

We'll use Method A unless everyone prefers B or C, though I reserve the right to use B on my on volition if and when I think it becomes appropriate. Method C would require an affirmative agreement from everyone. So in the space below, just indicate which one you would prefer. Just put in something like ":A — ~~~~" or ":B then A then C, in that order — ~~~~"

Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:37, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Responses to Inquiry #1:

The material dramatically deviates from previous studies, and it is questionable whether it would have passed the orthodox peer-review stages of mainstream journals (due to the combination of methodology and conclusions). However, it is incorrect to suggest that this automatically renders the conclusions false. It requires the adjudication of further research and impartial literature review from secondary sources. I believe the material would be suitable for the page if and when that happens. This essentially fleshes out the first inquiry, as I see it.137.111.13.200 (talk) 23:30, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Your understanding is correct. However, my concerns are, as you mentioned, 2 fold. If the references used to support the inclusion of new material do not meet WP standards for medical references then, few of the references used in the current article do either.Erythema (talk) 20:59, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• Responses to Inquiry #2:

I think an additional problem is that some editors are claiming that some studies or portions thereof support the "actual disease" hypothesis when they clearly do not. Where the studies have a "conclusions" section, I'd like to seek agreement that we judge the study as supporting that conclusion instead of quote mining the study. 198.199.134.100 (talk) 23:57, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I realize the WP policy does not favor using original research, but that it does allow for the inclusion of primary studies when secondary studies are lacking. I want to be clear that I do not expect the inclusion of new material to be used in a way that is not compatible with WP policy. I honestly want the article to be a fair and unbiased representation of the medical literature available on this topic, but if primary sources are used to reference 1 POV then they should be allowed to reference the other (or any other POVs). I would like to mention there is a reliable secondary resource citing material supporting the infectious hypothesis. Other editors seem to agree that the F1000 itself is a prestigious group of scientists and doctors, although they dispute F1000 Research. The F1000 (not part of F1000 Research) have cited the paper, Morgellons Disease: A Chemical and Light Microscopic Study (2012), in F1000 Prime as a recommended article, f1000.com/prime/716597867 , and as a must read or very good article. This citation is not the same as the paper itself (it was published by OMICS) and is therefore a secondary source. I would like to see this included as an additional reference.Erythema (talk) 21:30, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• Responses to Inquiry #3:

I prefer Method C most, Method B next, and Method A least, but will still agree to move forward with any of them. Zad68 15:46, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I echo Zad68 in preferring C, B, and A last, but agreeing to abide by whichever approach will resolve the dispute. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 16:18, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

A (based on TM's suggestion), but C and B are fine, too -- Scray (talk) 21:22, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

C and B, then A, in the interest of reaching consensus (and after considering why so many favor this, I agree). -- Scray (talk) 16:11, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

C is my preference, followed by A, then lastly B. Drgao (talk) 23:11, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

C is my preference, then A then B.137.111.13.200 (talk) 23:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Definitely C. A & B wouldn't be a definitive decision on the process and I'd prefer to resolve this ASAP. 198.199.134.100 (talk) 23:57, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Prefer C. Unsure as to preference between remaining options. Sailsbystars (talk) 04:04, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

C,B then A. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:30, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

C, then B then A. I'll participate whichever is ultimately chosen. Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 21:08, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I prefer A if it is possible. But if not either B or C.Erythema (talk) 21:33, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Interim evaluation of the foregoing: Since option C is the first preference of most participants and at least an alternative choice of everyone else, I would use C except that two editors, Brangifer and Arthur Rubin, have not agreed to it (or any other choice) and C must be unanimous to be available. I would ordinarily just move ahead with one of the other options but when the responses already given are evaluated it's very close to a dead heat between A and B. I'm going to poke them on their talk pages and ask them to weigh in here. If they've not done so in the next 24 hours or so, then we'll move ahead. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:54, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I prefer C. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

My apologies for the delay. I prefer C, as well. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:46, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Moving forward with C

Though we've not heard from Arthur Rubin, I've taken a long look at his user page, user status, and history and believe that we can expect that he will respect any result we reach here even if he has not specifically agreed to option C, so that's what we are going to go with.

• In that context, everyone needs to understand that with option C that what we have is, essentially, an agreement that you will not dispute this matter further with one another.
• It does not mean that any third parties are bound by that agreement, so it is entirely possible for a new editor — not a sockpuppet or new account of one of you, but an entirely new participant — to come along and start advocating for one side or the other and this decision will not be binding in any way on them.

• Because of that, your agreement to this method also implies that not only will you agree to abide by it, but that you will not solicit third parties to come along and reopen it.
• If a third party does come along and their position is opposite to that decided here, it further means that those on the prevailing side here must be able to oppose that third party without interference or negative input from those on the other side here.

• It also means that if new sources pro or con are developed, by which I mean that they are published for the first time after the decision here, then they can be raised and discussed by either side.
• As part of the concept here, the idea is to end this dispute. You have my promise that I will not decide the matter frivolously, arbitrarily, or lightly or with any bias other than a bias in favor of doing what's best for the encyclopedia in keeping with its policies, guidelines, and customary practices, but what I decide will not be subject to further discussion or appeal.
• Finally, this agreement is a handshake and obligation of honor, not an enforceable agreement. I'm not an administrator and even if I was there's no provision in policy for enforcing an agreement such as this.

So stop and engage in a bit of self-examination for a moment. Let's say I come back with a decision that is to the absolute opposite of what you think is right and with either no explanation of it (I reserve the right to just decide without explanation, though it's not likely that's what I'll do) or with an explanation that you think is dead wrong. What I'm asking of you is whether on your honor you can commit right now to gritting your teeth and living with that result without rejecting it, arguing against it, carping about it, or finagling a way around it. There's no dishonor in saying no, but only if you do it now.

Here we go: I've carefully avoided studying the issue until now, just so I could be neutral in setting all this up and in giving the question a fair reading when the time came. From now through next Monday, I'm going to start studying the issue. If anyone either wants to back out on the agreement after the introspection I've just asked for, or if anyone wants to make any comments about any of the specific sources listed above, feel free to do so below, but do it before 11:59 UTC on Monday, July 15, 2013. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Sounds great. I'm sure everyone who supported Option C was aware that this was what they were choosing, the description going into it was pretty clear. Are you stating that you will be STARTING your review on Monday? I just want to be sure that the three recent discussions at Talk:Morgellons entitled Talk:Morgellons#Due_weight, Talk:Morgellons#F1000_Research, and Talk:Morgellons#Dove_Press_Reputation are read and considered carefully as part of the review process. Thanks... Zad68 18:20, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I'll be sure to consider them; if anyone else has specific discussions to which they wish to point me, please feel free to do so here. I'll be doing my review starting immediately with a view towards issuing a decision on Tuesday, though if I have questions I need to pose here, or unexpected real world issues (which are always possible for me on weekends), it might be delayed. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:41, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

@Erythema: At the article talk page you have asserted several times that, "There are provisions for relaxation of the No original research policy when secondary sources are lacking." While I don't think that assertion is going to affect the answer of what I'm considering at this point in time, I'd like to make sure. Please identify the provisions that you're talking about. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:26, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

(Responses copied from my user talk page. — TransporterMan (TALK) 13:58, 16 July 2013 (UTC))

Sorry to take so long to get back to your request for information on relaxing policy. I am out of town at a conference and have not had much time for wikipedia. First thanks for volunteering to mediate this heated topic. Whatever way you decide I very much appreciate the attention you are giving this and your neutrality. I honestly do not want to do anything that opposes WP policy and if the addition of new material conflicts with policy I completely understand. My concern is the bias that I feel the current article has, especially because it does involve health of people. The main article is written as though there is no other POV other than a delusional etiology and I feel the patients with this disorder and the public need to know there are other POVs. A Pub Med search on Morgellons does not provide many, if any, appropriate secondary sources. There aren't any good systematic review articles. There is quite a lot on WP:MEDRS on the use of primary sources and how to use them. This was the section where it says that policy can be relaxed when an area is undergoing active research. I believe there is another mention somewhere else and I will look more thoroughly for it. Again, thanks for volunteering.

WP:MEDDATE

Here are some rules of thumb for keeping an article up-to-date, while maintaining the more-important goal of reliability. These instructions are appropriate for actively researched areas with many primary sources and several reviews and may need to be relaxed in areas where little progress is being made or few reviews are being published. Erythema (talk) 03:35, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Transporterman, I cannot find anything in WP:MEDRS that indicates that primary resources should not be used when secondary sources are lacking. In the current article on Morgellons very few references are from peer-reviewed medical journals. Of those that are almost all are opinion peices, and of those that are not there are 2 original research. Here's some more on primary resources that seems to indicate that they can be used providing they are used correctly. WP:MEDRS: Reliable primary sources may occasionally be used with care as an adjunct to the secondary literature, but there remains potential for misuse. For that reason, edits that rely on primary sources should only describe the conclusions of the source, and should describe these findings clearly so the edit can be checked by editors with no specialist knowledge. In particular, this description should follow closely the interpretation of the data given by the authors, or by other reliable secondary sources. Primary sources should not be cited in support of a conclusion that is not clearly made by the authors or by reliable secondary sources. Regards Erythema (talk) 04:36, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Opinion and call for additional arguments

I have reviewed the sources in question, i.e. those listed above in my posting of 15:37, 8 July 2013, and those subsequently mentioned by others. WP:MEDRS says:

Wikipedia's articles, while not intended to provide medical advice, are nonetheless an important and widely used source of health information. Therefore, it is vital that the biomedical information in all types of articles be based on reliable, third-party, published sources and accurately reflect current medical knowledge.

Ideal sources for such content includes literature reviews or systematic reviews published in reputable medical journals, academic and professional books written by experts in the relevant field and from a respected publisher, and medical guidelines or position statements from nationally or internationally recognised expert bodies.

It also says:

After enough time has passed for a review in the area to be published, the review should be cited in preference to the primary study. ... If no review on the subject is published in a reasonable amount of time, then the text associated with the primary source should be removed.

And says:

Case reports, whether in the popular press or a peer reviewed medical journal, are a form of anecdote and generally fall below the minimum requirements of reliable medical sources.

While other portions of MEDRS are also applicable, it is my belief that except for two or perhaps three of the sources that none of the listed sources are sufficiently reliable to be cited in the article due to substantial doubt about their publishers having the "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" required by WP:SOURCES. Note that I said WP:SOURCES, not WP:MEDRS. By that I mean to say that I do not believe that they meet even the standard needed for ordinary sources at Wikipedia. When one filters that through the higher standard required by WP:MEDRS, I believe that there is no possibility that they could serve as reliable sources for medical articles. The articles which I have reference to here are those published by F1000, Dove Press, and OMICS. That leaves the three articles published by Springer, BioMed, and British Medical Journal. The publishers of the first and third are clearly reliable and I am uncertain about BioMed. I believe the BMJ article, which is merely a 1946 letter to the journal is, however, both too old and too anecdotal to be of any use in the article except perhaps to provide some historical information if and when the disease theory can positively appear in the article in depth. That leaves the Springer ("The mystery of Morgellons disease", Savely, Leitao, and Stricker) and BioMed ("Morgellons disease, illuminating", Harvey, Bransfield, Mercer, Leitao, et al) articles. I would like to hear arguments about why or why not those two particular articles do or do not qualify as MEDRS-reliable sources and should or should not be used in the article. In that regard, I would also welcome comments about why the CDC study is appropriate for the article, but those two articles are or are not. Any participant may respond below and I'll receive arguments through 23:59 UST on Thursday, July 18. Please do not respond to one another's arguments, simply make your own case. This opinion is final as to the other sources, please refrain from commenting on them; any comments on the F1000, Dove Press, OMICS, and BMJ sources will be disregarded and deleted. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 21:44, 16 July 2013 (UTC) PS: If you assert that something is determined by a policy or guideline, please provide a link to the specific section of the policy or guideline you are asserting. — TransporterMan (TALK) 21:50, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd say the CDC study is relevant simply for the history of the condition, which is how it's used in the article. The 2006 article could be included in that fashion (and already is). However, if you check the link to the full article, it simply doesn't count as a secondary study. It was published at least two years before any modern primary sources; the only "Morgellons is non-delusional" article it cites is the 1946 letter. It therefore does not make the "non-delusional" argument more than a fringe view. Stricker is also credited in the paper and has a very poor reputation from being found guilty of scientific misconduct. I can't comment on the 2009 article at the moment, other than to say that Leitao is credited in the article and is also considered an unreliable researcher by mainstream medical consensus; I'll try to look into it later. 198.199.134.100 (talk) 01:16, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Istrian exodus

– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.

Filed by Thehistorian10 on 19:06, 6 July 2013 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Istrian exodus (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Thehistorian10 (talk · contribs)
• DIREKTOR (talk · contribs)
• Silvio1973 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Parties do not agree on how the lead section of the article "Istrian exodus" should be written, nor can they agree on appropriate sources

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

The original disputers have tried a discussion on the talkpage, followed by a 3O, which I gave. In response to that 3O, the discussion degenerated into a spat between editors that seemed to be going nowhere

How do you think we can help?

Help the original disputers reach consensus on the structure of the lead, and the appropriate sources to be used in that lead

Opening comments by DIREKTOR

I've written a rather detailed "deposition" on Talk:Istrian exodus (my last post) please refer to that. -- Director (talk) 20:50, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Silvio1973

It is somehow sad that we have arrived here. I genuinely believed there was enough room to reach consensus. The issue is that it's difficult to discuss when the other party does not assume good faith. Indeed, my counterparty went further than this and qualified me of lier, nationalist and extremist.

From my side I can say that I do not have any special opinion about user Direktor. He has different opinions on the Istrian exodus. He tried to push his opinions and this is normal. What is not normal (and I make abstraction of the language he used in my respect) is that despite multiple requests from me and the Mediator he did not provide any source in support of his edit. Indeed he looked more interested in demonstrating first the inexistence, then the unreliability and in the end (when all other options exhausted) the misrepresentation of the sources I would allegedly made to support used my edit. The whole discussion became even more difficult when the Mediator declared to be tempted to approve my edit.

Indeed, I do not believe my opinion is extremist at all. I have posted a well sourced edit and if necessary I can source it even more (I volunterely limited myself to the best available 4 sources). --Silvio1973 (talk) 12:55, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Notice of formal recusal

As I have already described, I am already heavily involved in this dispute per Wikipedia:INVOLVED, and, in a not unconnected manner, Wikipedia:COI. Threfore, I give formal notice of my recusal from this case, save in the instance where the eventual mediator asks for details about the Wikipedia:3O that I gave. Notwithstanding the above, I will be watching this page since I have other business to do regarding Wikipedia:DRN (namely, mediation of another dispute). --The Historian (talk) 17:17, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Istrian exodus discussion

Edit proposed by Silvio1973

I propose the following version (please accept my apolologies for repeating me again) for the lede of the article. It goes by itself that in order to get to consensus I am ready to discuss about all possible compromise, but to proceed in this direction we need first to get from the counterparty a version of facts adequately sourced. However, I need to stress that the article is today inadequate (in terms of sources, balance between the sections and general completeness) and further work will be required to increase the quality to the importance of an event of such significance. In this sense it is important to get to consensus from the beginning to work with proficiency in the future.

The formal responsibility of the Yugoslav Regime in the exodus is still today a matter of discussion amongst historians. However, the measures implemented, some summary killings, confiscations, pressure from the governmental authorities and the press forced the ethnic Italian to leave quickly and en masse.

In some cases, such as in Rijeka (inhabited by an Italian majority), the arrival of the Yugoslavs was marked by a series of public murders and an intense policy of Croatization of the local population.

Prominent members of Tito's inner group, such as Milovan Dilas and Edward Kardelj (than Yugoslav Minister for Foreign Affairs) were sent to Istria to organise anti-Italian propaganda, as Milovan Dilas himself would declare in an interview given in 1991.

Sources

1) People on the move: forced population movements in Europe after WWII and its aftermath - Pertti Ahonen, Berg, USA, 2008 - Page 108 lines 3-4 and 8-9-10 from the top, page 105 last two lines and page 106 last 8 lines.

2) History in Exile: Memory and Identity at the Borders of the Balkans - Pamela Ballinger, Princetown University Press, UK, 2003 - Page 109 the entire last paragraph and page 103 lines 16-17-18-19 from the top.

3) Refugees in the Age of Total War - Anna C. Bramwell, University of Oxford, UK, 1988 - Page 139 lines 6-5-4-3 from the bottom and page 143 lines 8-7-6-5-4-3 from the bottom.

4) Literary and Social Diasporas - G. Rando and Jerry Turcotte, Belgium, 2007 - ISBN 978-90-5201-383-1 - Look at page 174 lines 14 to 21.

This edit received a positive 3O about 10 days ago. --Silvio1973 (talk) 13:29, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

2013 in British music

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by ChrisGualtieri on 15:53, 12 July 2013 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• 2013 in British music (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• ChrisGualtieri (talk · contribs)
• Deb (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Deb insists that linking individual dates for the deaths of individuals and dates that occurred on a specific date is intrinsic and acceptable for an article. I maintain that they are not, citing that the links do not even mention the event let alone discuss it. Secondly, I am citing that the date of death should not be linked because it is unacceptable for the original biographical article; for the same reason as above. Using the definitions from MOS, the requirement is that such links must be intrinsic (i.e essential) per WP:YEARLINK and WP:DATELINK.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussion on talk page.

How do you think we can help?

Provide clarification to resolve dispute.

Opening comments by Deb

I've been here many times before. It seems to me self-evident that Year in Topic articles are "intrinsically chronological" in nature. They are covered by Wikipedia:WikiProject_Years, within which the use of links in sections such as "Events" and "Deaths" is well documented as the norm. Chris Gualtieri's argument for removing the date links from one such article is that he doesn't believe they are useful. I happen to disagree. Year articles are specifically excluded from the no-date-linking guideline; it was precisely through this exclusion that the "great date-linking debate" of [whatever year it was - I'm sure someone can enlighten me] was finally resolved. Please let's not have another such rift. Deb (talk) 17:23, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

2013 in British music discussion

Hi, I'm Carrie, and I'm a volunteer here at DRN. This doesn't give me any special powers or authority, but I can try and help you reach an agreement. I'm still reading up on the various discussions that have taken place about this subject, but it looks to me as though the issue is whether or not a 'Year in Topic' article is intrinsically chronological. Is that right? CarrieVS (talk) 11:12, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, the "Year in topic" is (to itself) intrinsically chronological, meaning that preceding and successive years should be linked in some manner. So links to 2012 in British music is perfectly acceptable; as I guess 2012 would be by extension. The primary issue is the linking of every individual date for which no relevant information exists. Take this line, "9 March - George Benjamin conducts the UK première of his opera Written on Skin at the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden." Does 9 March have any relevance other then the date just happened to fall on that particular day? No. Is it a key date in the history of March 9? No. Is it even mentioned on March 9? No. Even within the article's table for "Platinum records" the excessive date linking is absent, but included on every single date of death in the following section. None of these individual dates are relevant at all to the material and should be de-linked. These date links are not even allowed on the biographies themselves because consensus advances the "not germane" aspect as I am doing so here! It is a big stretch to say that these articles are "intrinsically chronological" because the definition (synonym swapped) means "essentially chronological". There is nothing "essential" or "essentially" chronological about those dates. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:24, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

"Is it even mentioned on March 9? No." The reason for that is pretty obvious: there is no article entitled "March 9 in music". If there were, it would be. It's not at all unlikely that such an article will be created at some future date. Deb (talk) 17:22, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Luigi di Bella

– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.

Filed by Robertiki on 17:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Luigi di Bella (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Robertiki (talk · contribs)
• Yobol (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The issue is if for the article a list of publications is appropriate. And it grounds on the question if following assumed rule is in the spirit of Wikipedia: "for persons which are not authors, musicians, & artists, only notable works that are heavily referenced by peers should be listed". Note: last year there was a dispute about some links added that I understand failed under the "original research" criteria: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_44#Luigi_di_Bella There was only a mention about "references" deletion, which I did not pursue for lack of time, having been given too much pages to read at that time.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Only the talk page.

How do you think we can help?

In case the rule: "for persons which are not authors, musicians, & artists, only notable works that are heavily referenced by peers should be listed" is the Wikipedia spirit, how do we find if a work is "heavily referenced by peers" and which criteria should be used (minimum number of references, reputability of the peers, and what else is needed).

Opening comments by Yobol

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Luigi di Bella discussion

Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

Talk:Digvijaya Singh

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Soham321 on 21:16, 14 July 2013 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Digvijaya Singh (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Soham321 (talk · contribs) Sitush (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Please scroll down on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Digvijaya_Singh and see the four sections "Hemant Karkare Edit wrongly deleted by User:Sitush", "Edit on Political Career of Digvijay wrongly deleted by User:Sitush", "Corruption Allegation Edit wrongly deleted by User:Sitush", "Views on Religion and Religious Extremism wrongly deleted by User:Sitush". The first three sections deal with edits variation of which had been in place on the WP:BLP of Digvijaya Singh ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digvijaya_Singh ) for a long time spanning as much as a few years as per my knowledge. The reasons User:Sitush keeps giving for deleting all the edits seem spurious to me. For instance, the "Hemant Karkare" edit dominated Indian political news at one time. Just because it is an unimportant topic today does not mean it has lost its relevance. The reason for its importance is that it concerns terrorism which is a subject of national security. Digvijay claimed that before he got killed by Muslim Pakistani terrorists, Karkare--a senior police officer--had called him and complained about the threats he was facing from hindu extremists. This claim of Digvijay was disputed by some people and an effort was made to discredit him. The second section deals with a corruption allegation against Digvijay which involved correspondence between Singh when he was Chief Minister of Madhya Pradesh and the BJP Prime Minister Vajpayee in which he eventually came out clean. In view of other corruption allegations against him, it is important to keep this edit in place lest people pre-judge the existing corruption allegations against Digvijay. Regarding the Political career edit, there is one reference (User:Sitush has been claiming there are no references) and certainly more references can be given for this important edit which gives useful information about Digvijay's political career. With respect to the edit "Views on Religion and Religious Extremism", please see the talk page discussion. Have you tried to resolve this previously? There is nothing to discuss because User:Sitush and I seem to have completely opposite views on these edits. It does not help that both of us think the other to be biased. How do you think we can help? I would like you to judge whether User:Sitush is right in removing the edits in question in toto, or whether those edits or variations of those edits can be put back. I will accept whatever decision you take. Opening comments by Sitush Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Soham has not discussed on the talk page. I opened a discussion and they responded by opening numerous other sections and basically dumping the removed statements into them. There are also other parties who have been active on that talk page in the last few months and who have not had a chance to contribute. Finally, while some of those parties have suggested bias on the part of Soham, the fact that I have been accused of bias at Narendra Modi against the BJP/for the INC and am now being accused in this DRN (with no prior intimation) of bias for the BJP/against the INC simply suggests that, in fact, I am neutral. This request for resolution is way too premature. - Sitush (talk) 21:31, 14 July 2013 (UTC) Talk:Digvijaya Singh discussion Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2012 Italian shooting in the Laccadive Sea

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Robertiki on 16:22, 15 July 2013 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• 2012 Italian shooting in the Laccadive Sea (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Robertiki (talk · contribs)
• 81.240.132.34 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

User 81.240.132.34 insists on excluding any other hypothesis, unwilling to wait at least the end of the trial. I accept all the information he as added, but require a "supposedly" at least at the beginning, to remember that there are still some doubts. I have also offered a link of a official document about that, but he deleted it.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussion on my personal page.

How do you think we can help?

Explaining what are the rules about controversial events.

Opening comments by 81.240.132.34

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Roberiki is of the opinion (1) that the marines did not shoot at all (2) that the shooting did not result in the deaths of the fishermen (3) that the court case is underway and so we should wait till the end of the trial before linking the Italian VPD team to the two dead Indian fishermen.

My perspective has been clearly outlined in the TALK page of the article : (A) the VPD team fired at a fishing boat (which is undisputed because the Italian Defence Ministry said so in a communiqué released immediately after the incident). (B) It is a fact that forensic and ballistic analysis has linked the shrapnel, found in the dead bodies of the slain Indian fishermen on-board the St-Antony, to the ammunition and weapons issued to the VPD marines on-board the Enrica Lexie (which also no one can dispute because of the Alessandro Piroli report by Italian military investigators and also Indian police case-report filed in Indian courts).

To conclude, we can safely assume from all the authenticated investigation information freely available in the public-domain that there is overwhelming evidence that the Italian VPD team did open fire on a fishing boat and that the bullets did hit and kill 2 Indian fishermen on the St-Antony. The opening paragraph of the article says exactly this. No more and no less.

On a side-note, kindly also read what Roberiki says about the Italian Government and senior Ministers in his contribution on the TALK page of the Talk:2012 Italian shooting in the Laccadive Sea, it becomes clear that his sole intention is to disrupt the Wiki article just because he dislikes Italian politicians.

81.240.132.34 (talk) 23:03, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

2012 Italian shooting in the Laccadive Sea discussion

Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

Hi, I'm Howicus, a volunteer at DRN. So, the problem here seems to be that this incident's trial is currently ongoing, and Robertiki wants the article to make it clear that the incident has not yet been proven in court, while 81.240.132.34 says that the evidence already presented in the trial is enough to remove the "supposed", right? Well it seems to me that the shooting itself is not in question: the marines did shoot two people. Only the motives and intentions are being questioned. That's how it looks to me, feel free to correct me if this is not the case. Howicus (talk) 20:48, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

There are some open questions: the bullets appear to have hit the boat with a low trajectory, too low to come from the deck of a big ship, the bullets are common use, and about the tracers, it's the first time I read that you can use it to identify a shooter; in the past too many times, italian officials have changed their results, we still don't know what happened at Ustica 1980, or what happened with Amanda Knox, and it still it is not ended. And today read (translate with Google) http://www.tgcom24.mediaset.it/politica/articoli/1106200/caso-kazako-a-rischio-4-funzionari-del-viminale.shtml it's normal in Italy. So the italian marines have no one they can trust, the "reason of state" comes first. After all it is easier the Indians find an acceptable truth. Read http://www.imo.org/blast/blastData.asp?doc_id=14506&filename=182.pdf page 17 about the Olympic Flair. Link also deleted by 81.240.132.34. Too many doubts. And about seriousness: have we forgotten Mr.Berlusconi ? --Robertiki (talk) 23:36, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

@talk Thanks for your time as a volunteer to look into this and give your opinion as an independant and neutral 3rd party. I concur 100% with your perspective.

81.240.132.34 (talk) 23:04, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Please correct your statements. I *never* wrote that "the marines did not shoot at all, that the shooting did not result in the deaths of the fishermen". Be correct.--Robertiki (talk) 23:41, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, Robertiki, why do you think that the word "supposed" should be in the article? Howicus (talk) 19:05, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Aesthetic Realism

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by LoreMariano on 18:26, 15 July 2013 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Aesthetic Realism (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• LoreMariano (talk · contribs)
• FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk · contribs)
• Ocaasi (talk · contribs)
• Trouver (talk · contribs)
• Outerlimits (talk · contribs)
• Nathan43 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

In a 2-day period (July 8 and July 9, 2013), FreeKnowledgeCreator made 38 changes to the Aesthetic Realism entry. Some of the edits were corrections; some copyediting; some which warrant discussion on the talk page. Because of the historical contentious nature of this article, when it was rewritten 4 years ago, every sentence was reviewed by all parties for consensus before posting and since then this procedure has been largely followed. Where it hasn’t (including by me, see Outerlimits March 13, 2012 comment), the change is reverted and editors are told to please discuss on the talk page before making the change. The rewrite was done in an organized and methodical way that allowed everyone to comment. Compromises were made on both sides and where there was a disagreement about an edit which couldn't be resolved, a neutral editor overseeing the rewrite arbitrated. I am more than willing and, in fact, would welcome, discussion about edits to the article. I agree with many of the edits. My objection is that important edits were thrown in with unimportant edits. I suggest that all editors stop making changes to the entry so that a complete list can made in an organized way to prioritize what should be changed immediately and what needs to be discussed.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Began to make list to discuss changes but discussion keeps getting diverted into discussion of editors.

How do you think we can help?

I think it would be helpful if all editors followed a set procedure for discussing, reaching consensus, and making changes--with a mediator present to keep discussion and consensus moving forward.

Opening comments by FreeKnowledgeCreator

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

There was nothing wrong with any of my 38 edits, most of which were very minor and uncontroversial. For LoreMariano to revert all of them, apparently because she objected to a small number of changes, was highly disruptive. That she even reverted edits that she has since agreed were improvements shows how bizarre her behavior really was. Her position, apparently, is that absolutely all edits, no matter how minor, must be discussed first. If that is her position, then it is preposterous, and the best way forward would be for her to abandon it and admit that she was wrong. LoreMariano complains that, "important edits were thrown in with unimportant edits." I don't know how LoreMariano defines "important" versus "unimportant". Some of my changes were more major than others, certainly, but what of it? There is no policy against making a mixture of major and minor changes when one edits an article, and if editors are able to edit competently and consider changes on a case by case basis, there is no reason why it should be a problem. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:05, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Ocaasi

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by Trouver

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

As mentioned above, quite a few changes were made to this article, which has a long, contentious history. As a fairly new editor FreeKnowledgeCreator was likely unaware of previous edit wars and the long-standing agreement to refrain from changes without discussion first on the talk page. Meanwhile, there is agreement that many of the edits of a technical kind (moving citations, removing spaces) and some word changes were good. Other word changes, however, are contentious. I agree that a method of moving forward must be established, and that all editors must discuss content only and refrain from making disparaging comments about the motives, intelligence or abilities of other editors. Trouver (talk) 02:58, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Outerlimits

It's possible to write and maintain an honest and informative Wikipedia article on certain philosophies and even religions. It's even possible to do so when adherents of those philosophies or religions participate in the crafting of those articles. But it's not possible to do so when adherents control what goes into those articles, especially if those adherents are not devoted to an honest examination of the subject, but instead insist it be treated hagiographically.

The Scientology articles on Wikipedia might serve as an example. …..They were scandalously kept in a whitewashed state by Scientology practitioners until a ban was placed on editing. (Anyone not familiar with this episode can reference Church of Scientology editing on Wikipedia.) In short, it became apparent that Scientiologists had practiced a self-serving wiki-revisionism that kept the articles full of disinformation, overwhelming regular editors by dint of numbers and relentlessness. It was noted that this sort of problem occurs with fringe faiths with rabid practitioners.

In the past, mediators on the Aesthetic Realism article have ceded control over the article to its practitioners, and thereby enabled a sense of ownership in its followers. In a sense, it's hard to fault those called upon to intervene. There are precious few people in the world who know anything about Aesthetic Realism, and fewer still who care anything about it. It's not an important philosophical movement; it's a footnote in the annals of philosophy made vivid only by a brief period in its history where it advertised itself widely as the "answer" to homosexuality (the answer being that it would change gay men and women into heterosexuals). That, with perhaps a few minor scandals as they tried to infiltrate the New York City school system, has been their real claim to fame. With a very small number of people outside AR interested in editing the article, it has become a playground for AR enthusiasts, for whom it is virtually an article of faith that their goal in life is ensuring that no one speaks in any but the most laudatory and non-critical manner about AR.

We are brought to this dispute page by someone whose contention seems to be that the Aesthetic Realism article shouldn't be edited like every other article on Wikipedia is. She should, perhaps, have actually stated her dispute on the talk page of the article rather than for the first time here, but I suppose limiting one's dispute ending efforts to "making a list" is a real time-saver.

The sense of ownership here is so severe that simple grammatical changes are reverted not because the reverter disagrees with them, but because someone dared to edit the article without her prior approval. Clearly this is not a state of affairs that should be allowed to continue.

The methods advocated by LoreMariano have been tried and have produced the sad article we now have. It would be silly to think that simply repeating the same process with the same people is going to produce a different result. Over the period of time they've been participating in editing the AR-related articles, it's been very difficult to describe things in a straightforward, encyclopedic manner. Part of the problem is the tangential manner in which they prefer articles be written; instead of simply stating Eli Siegal committed suicide, they prefer periphrases such as "elected to die with dignity", and silently remove applicable categorizations that offend them. The reason the article's current explanation of Aesthetic Realism is so inchoate is not simply a reflection of the philosophy proper, but because it quotes and mimics the curious tangential manner in which treatises about Aesthetic Realism are usually written.

What is needed is a way to bring other, disinterested, Wikipedia editors to the article in order to counterbalance the undue influence that the Aesthetic Realism followers currently have. I doubt that this is possible.

Nonetheless, at a very minimum, the changes already suggested to bring the article into conformity with the manual of style should be implemented at once (e.g., referring to "Siegel" as such throughout the body of the article), along with the uncontested grammatical changes (notwithstanding the edit war over "a" vs. "the"), as should appropriate treatment of Aesthetic Realism's assertion that it converts gay men to heterosexual men (WP:FRINGE demands that the mainstream point of view counterbalance their fringe belief on this subject.).

Opening comments by Nathan43

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

This article was worked over by editors with strongly differing viewpoints and a consensus was reached with great difficulty. The reason for asking for all changes to be discussed on the talk page first from my point of view was because historically when that didn't happen it led to edit-warring. I think any changes must be made very carefully and with mutual agreement.

It is important for anyone editing the article to look at the history carefully. Every sentence was discussed and argued about before consensus was reached, with the result that the current wording came to be. It was extremely time-consuming.

Some editors have had to endure insults, intimidation, and abuse that are completely contrary to Wikipedia guidelines and ordinary decency -- and this has happened in posts in the last couple of days.

I respectfully ask any person who sees themselves as arbitrating to insist from the start that all posts be respectful and not cast aspersions on the motives of others.

I'll point out too that the article as it stands is thoroughly sourced. It's easy to take a glance at it and say it needs better organization, but what looks like a simple task may turn out to be much more complex and involved than anticipated. Nathan43 (talk) 16:56, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Aesthetic Realism discussion

Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

The discussion is not open yet OPEN ,giving time for all notified to respond with opening statements but I am volunteering to help with this dispute. If it is allowed, participants may respond to opening comments above under the opening comments.TeeVeeed (talk) 04:45, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Notes from the volunteer:So far I am seeing petty editing disputes involving matters of style such-as, "The New York Times" vs "the New York Times"-this should be solvable via MOS-Manual of Style? And a more politically sensitive change between use of the term, "homosexuality" vs. "sexual orientation" type thing. The questions of this dispute seems to be one of how questionable edits should be decided and two:does every single edit to the article need to be discussed on the talk page?
The regular Wikipedia policies offer a great deal of guidance on how edits to the article should be done. If a particular edit is questioned, taking it to the talk page is the correct way to work it out.

Should the article be locked, or should every single edit be up for consensus? I don't think so. But past consensus seems to have been treating the article as-if it was protected. So maybe that should be looked into?

I have not yet seen all or other versions of what this article looked like in the past, but currently, it does appear to me to have some problems of giving "undue weight", to some topics, and overall, personally, I am of the opinion that a great deal of the material on the page could be placed on the Eli Siegel page. And also, my personal preference of style would be to re-arrange the article to put contentious topics under a sub-heading of "controversy"-Three items in particular, the homosexuality conflict, accusations of being a cult, and eugenics specifically. But, I don't know if I would be willing to do such a bold edit myself, especially considering the charges and evidence of article "ownership" that is attached to the topic.

For someone such as myself who is not familiar with the topic, and other users and readers, the article currently reveals exactly what has been going-on behind the scenes on the talk page, which doesn't speak well for WP or the article itself. Yes the "controversy" should be included, and mentioned in the lead, but overall, the article could be re-crafted to give a simpler presentation of the topic itself.So I guess that answers my opinion on #2. I do not think that the page should be locked and this idea of asking that all edits be consensual is equivalent to asking that page protections be put in place. My "perfect" version of the page would attempt to define the topic without undue weight or influence given to the founder or the controversies, while keeping that basic information in other sections on the page. But that is not the question here. I guess the question is should page protection be considered or not.
TeeVeeed (talk) 07:04, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

As volunteer to assist, I think that I am as up to speed on the problem as I can get. Let's open the discussion. I'm going to ask a couple questions here:

Question 1: Was there ever a time in the history of the article, that "both sides", or "all-sides", were satisfied with the article? (both sides being any editor personally connected to Aesthetic Realism past or present, "all-sides" including random WP editors or bots)

Question 2: You can either lock or protect a topic, or not but if the article is not sanctioned as such, it should not be treated, "as-if". What is the objection, (if any) to page protection, and is anyone here willing to take a look at the question of page protection/locking for the article?

So, I have spent a great deal of this afternoon looking at the article's problems and although no one has yet responded to the idea of page-protection, that is what we are talking about from the way that I see it. Without getting into any personal attacks, strictly applying Wikipedia guidelines to all of the editors involved with the article, would eliminate the edit-warring problem by blocking or restricting editors who could be said to pose a COI- conflict of interest, to the article.

On the other hand, protecting the article could lead to restricting any or all editors who do NOT pose the risk of COI. So it is tricky.
Insisting that editors who are not aware of previous consensus, follow a special set of rules for this article, is impractical and contrary to the policies of the project. So in case anyone is wondering, that isn't going to happen and it cannot be enforced.
Therefore, my proposal is this: allow a specific short time-period, no more than a week or so, to determine an "agreeable" article, and to then apply for page protection. And if that, or some version of that can not be decided, to close this DRN, and allow the article to remain open to random editing, with the usual guidelines of WP being intact. That would include the possibility of asking that any and all editors seen as posing a COI with the material be asked to refrain from editing the article.
TeeVeeed (talk) 23:46, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Anthony Fucilla

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Tokyogirl79 on 10:33, 16 July 2013 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Anthony Fucilla (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Tokyogirl79 (talk · contribs) 86.173.165.62 (talk · contribs) Sam Sailor (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Long story short, I came across the article as a speedy & declined it as asserting very slight notability and opened an AfD. I'd made some edits that asserted more notability, but not enough to keep the page. The two sole RS on the article were actually added by myself. Soon after an IP came on the page & tried editing, which removed not only the AfD template, but also the few sources I'd managed to find. Their edits were reverted by multiple editors. The IP in question has been posting repeatedly on the board making various assertions at notability, but never providing anything of any true value that would help keep the article. I've tried nicely pointing things out, but the IP editor has grown more increasingly hostile and has accused me of specifically having a vendetta against the article's subject. Another editor has tried to step in, but the personal attacks keep coming in against me because I was the one who opened the AfD. (No attacks against the editor that initially nominated it for deletion, however, which is a small blessing.) I think at this point we need other people to step in and mediate. I don't think that this is really quite necessary for the admin noticeboard, although I did tell the IP that he can feel free to post there if he truly believes that I am editing with a specific goal to delete the article because I personally have something against Fucilla. I've warned the user about making such accusations, but I don't think it's getting through to him. It's to the point where I've had to warn him that his actions could end up with him getting blocked for making personal attacks. Update: I notice that the page is currently tagged as a speedy, so this may be unnecessary. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 10:42, 16 July 2013 (UTC) Have you tried to resolve this previously? I've tried calmly explaining guidelines for notability and sources to him. Others have as well. How do you think we can help? Getting a third or fourth set of eyes can help a lot, as this user seems dead set in the belief that I'm only saying these things because of some mistaken belief that I want the article gone for personal reasons rather than notability guidelines. I personally think that the user is dangerously close to deserving a temporary editing block, but I know this board doesn't do this sort of thing. Opening comments by 86.173.165.62 Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Opening comments by Sam Sailor Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. I came across the article and reflinked it, subsequently trying to help with adding an infobox, a bibliography heading etc. hoping that the article creator or other editors could beef up with some references. That has not been the case. IP editor 86.173.165.62 has on the talk page repeatedly claimed that "news papers" and "news shows" exist that can support notability. I have offered to try to work such sources into the article would he simply post the bare URLs on the talk page. He has posted nothing. Tokyogirl has shown great patience and explained procedures and policies for IP editor 86.173.165.62. In return she has gotten very little but rudeness, shouting, and amusingly (or not) a sung quote from Have You Ever Seen the Rain?. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sam Sailor (talk • contribs) 11:28, 16 July 2013 (UTC) Talk:Anthony Fucilla discussion Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2012 Delhi gang rape case

– New discussion.

Filed by TransVannian on 19:07, 16 July 2013 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• 2012 Delhi gang rape case (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• TransVannian (talk · contribs)
• The Banner (talk · contribs)
• Gandydancer (talk · contribs)
• Lukeno94 (talk · contribs)
• Khazar2 (talk · contribs)
• TheOriginalSoni (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The issue is about whether the name of the gang rape victim should be included in the article or not. While the name has been verified and victim's father had granted permission to reveal her name, the name is not being allowed to included by The Banner and User:Lukeno94. They say that since the consensus is against it's inclusion it cannot be included in the article. However since the information about the name is verifiable and significant it's inclusion is not subject to a consensus. Also The Banner and Lukeno94 are the only ones in favor of not including it. I and Gandydancer are in favor of including it while Khazar2 is undecided which can be seen here ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Rape_victim_identification_at_2012_Delhi_gang_rape_case ). Also The Banner has started harassing me in order to scare me away. Lukeno94 displayed the same behavior earlier. It seems that these users are refusing to let the victim's name be included in the article because they think that it will be a disrespect to her. In that case they are promoting their own personal interests. This cannot be allowed. I request assistance in resolving this dispute.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have proved to them that the name of the victim is verifiable and her family had granted media outlets the permission to reveal her name. I've also tried explaining to them that including her name in the article is not an insult to her but it will increase her respect.

How do you think we can help?

Please make sure that no one can impose their own views and advise about what decision should be taken about the inclusion of the name of the victim in the article.

Opening comments by The Banner

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The filer has done nothing to reach a compromise. He just get hammering that we did not understand the policies. Now it is clear that the discussion is not going his way, he turns to DR. The Banner talk 19:57, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

With the user taking user warnings as threats and removing them, I have no hope filer will be willing to compromise or negotiate. The Banner talk 20:14, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Gandydancer

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

This editor is not correct when s/he states that I want to put the name of the dead woman into the article and that should be clear since I was the first one to remove her name when he used it on the talk page. I thought that I could help him/her by explaining that in a previous discussion I brought up the possibility but through group discussion I agreed that we should not use her name. That turned out to be a mistake because now s/he continues to repeat that I want her name in the article. Gandydancer (talk) 21:04, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Lukeno94

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

I don't think I've got much more to say than what Soni said - their viewpoint is pretty much mine. What I will say is that TransVannian has used both edit summaries and the talkpage as a soapbox for their views, and any time they are informed of this policy, they either ignore it, or claim "harassment" - as they've done here. No one has claimed that adding the victim's name is an "insult" - we're following BLP and keeping it out of the article, as per the family's wishes. Frankly, this DRN shows yet more WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour by TransVannian, and should be closed. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:54, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Khazar2

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by TheOriginalSoni

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This is a relatively simple case. The editor in question, TransVannian, started by making a change to the article with an Edit Sumary which was considered bad enough by several editors that I had to contact an admin who revdelled it. After which, they have been posting long tirades on the talk page accusing everyone of POV pushing and not knowing Wikipedia guidelines and related matters.

The primary issue being contended is whether or not a rape victim's name be published in the article. Long standing consensus, based on discussion, previous examples of similar cases and policies as well as the national and most of international media judged against having the name on the article. The editor here failed to note that consensus in this case was more important than verifiablity.

In light of the long and pointless discussion, I had closed the discussion on the Talk page, after which the discussion and accusations shifted to User talk:The Banner, before being closed again and brought to DRN. The case seems pretty straightforward to me.

TheOriginalSoni (talk) 19:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

2012 Delhi gang rape case discussion

Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

TransVannian: Discussion doesnt start until a volunteer has accepted the case. Until then everyone gets a chance to make an opening statements, and comments are not to be made against these statements
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Discussion should be there but what if the the whole consensus has been motivated by a user thinking that including victim's name is a insult. It a promotion of their own views. Also how are you saying that consensus is more important than verification. Is this statement even mentioned anywhere? No it isn't. Without a proof why should your statement be regarded true User:TheOriginalSoni? In actual it is the opossite. Correct information that is significant is not subject to a consensus no.matter how controversial the info might be. TransVannian (talk) 19:44, 16 July 2013 (UTC) Not only that you've also failed that only 2 users are in favor of not including the name in the article while 2 are in favor of including it and 1 is undecided. How are you saying that consensus favors not including the name? TransVannian (talk) 19:50, 16 July 2013 (UTC) Lukeno94 you can't say that this post should be closed. It will be closed when the dispute is resolved. Do you expect me to just blindly believe that consensus is more important than verifiability? These bullying tactis won't work on.me. TransVannian (talk) 20:17, 16 July 2013 (UTC) Would you stop with the utter bullshit that your claims of "bullying" are? Your "verifiability" comment makes no sense either - just because something is verifiable doesn't mean it should be included; thus, yes, consensus is more important than verifiability. Again, more battleground behaviour from you. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Canada ‎

– New discussion.

Filed by JackCommons on 00:54, 17 July 2013 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Canada (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• JackCommons (talk · contribs)
• Moxy (talk · contribs)
• Mccomber (talk · contribs)
• Walter Görlitz (talk · contribs)
• Max Freddy (talk · contribs)
• Dbrodbeck (talk · contribs)
• Taroaldo (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

In the article on "Canada" under Section 7 titled "Culture," 'strict gun control' is listed and considered a Canadian cultural value. I and many others believe this is a false statement and politically motivated. An issue that is both modern and controversial cannot be held as a cultural value and should be removed from the article. The parties that disagree continue to demand their references be re-read, while ignoring provided references that disagree with their opinions. The conversation is going in circles.

The article is also protected making it difficult to edit without agreement.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Only discussion in the Talk area of the article.

How do you think we can help?

Hopefully, by providing a fair and objective analysis of the references and facts provided in the Talk section (Talk:Canada 'Culture section and strict gun control'). A decision needs to be made on whether gun control is or is not a Canadian cultural value.

Opening comments by Moxy

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by Mccomber

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by Walter Görlitz

It's my understanding that in relation to our southern neighbours, our gun laws are very restrictive, however it may be that it's not as restrictive as in other nations. I think that the section should be addressed in neutral, referenced terms. Since I don't have either, I will recuse myself from this discussion. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:19, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Max Freddy

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by Dbrodbeck

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Opening comments by Taroaldo

Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

Talk:Canada ‎ discussion

Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

Comment (perhaps a quick wrap-up): Is there any reason why we cant drop "gun control" completely or rewrite that sentence. Canada having strict gun control is only true from certain POVs. Its also meaningless anyway, its like saying Germany has "lax speed control" (because of the Autobahns), and this is indicative of of Germany's political and cultural values. -- Nbound