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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Venuzza67 (talk | contribs) at 10:47, 17 July 2013. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Confusion (album)

Confusion (album) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Dan56 (talk) 11:00, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it is well-written, properly sourced, reasonably illustrated, and as comprehensive as possible of the article's topic; all sources on and related to the topic have been found and exhausted. Short, but sweet article. Dan56 (talk) 11:00, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Nick-D

Comments Oppose This is a solid article, but I think that it needs more background on the development of the album and information on how it was originally received, including in Nigeria:

  • The background section should provide some information on Fela Kuti's pre-1970s career to put his change of focus into perspective and explain his style of music (a paragraph or so would do the job)
  • Where and when was the album recorded, and can anything be said about the process of recording it?
  • ""pafuka" means "all over" or "finished". Kuti also used the interjection "o" to add emphasis" - this seems out of place
  • Can anything be said about the critical or commercial reception the album received when it was released? (I was expecting to see some information about sales, reception by Fela Kuti's fans and reviews by contemporary critics).
  • Also, all the critical reviews are from western reviewers: how was, and is, the album regarded in Nigeria? Nick-D (talk) 11:34, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately this is all there is; music journalism is really a Western thing/development, and hey, it's a third world country, what can you do. I don't know about fans. There aren't really ever reliable sources for fan reception in album articles. Added the paragraph on background. Dan56 (talk) 12:06, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Good job overall- Nick-D is right, though, needs much more Nigerian background and criticism from the source. Actually, criticism in Nigeria has a long and storied history, and please lose the casual (though i'm sure not intended) racism: "it's a third world country, what can you do." Fela came from that third world country, so it also makes no sense. When you look for Nigerian criticism, replace the word with "Naija," the preferred word for the country by Nigerians. You might want to start with Benson Idonije of The Guardian. Check Naija.com, Bellanaija.com, Y! Magazine, 234next.com. All good places to start. A little more effort on the source-criticism, Dan56, and I think you'll be pretty damn good. Kudos!

Venuzza67 (talk) 21:21, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's not racist bro. And yes, that was the reference, Fela is from that third-world country, so it makes sense. And all sources on this topic have been exhausted, whether you want to believe it or not. I wouldn't have nominated this article if it wasn't as comprehensive on the topic as possible. If Nigeria has a long and storied history, it isn't evident from the sources available. And I addressed Nick-D's concern regarding the background section. It was convenient to be less on the article's topic in a background section with a larger perspective on Kuti in general, but unfortunately, I cant manufacture Nigerian music criticism of the album. I don't know what "Naija" has to do with Googling sources; typing in "Fela Kuti" with "Confusion" (or the album's year, details, etc.) would have done the same if there really are online sources for reviews by Nigerian sources. According to this, the only FA music articles under the Africa wikiproject are "We Are the World" and some Madonna song, so I'm not surprised with how limited those sources appear to be. Dan56 (talk) 22:01, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In regards to "And all sources on this topic have been exhausted", is it really the case that not a word was written on this album by an artist with an international profile at the time of its release? I would have thought that the lively music media in the UK would have covered it at the time. I doubt that Fairfax's book in 1993 was the first time anyone had written about this album. I'm afraid that I'm going to shift to a formal oppose. Nick-D (talk) 08:55, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and I've searched all kinds of variations in GoogleNews, Books, and web search of the album title with Kuti's name and the release year, or the record label, one of the credited musicians such as Tony Allen, etc. (such as these: [1], [2], [3]). I also searched each line from the song to see if a commentary of its quote would coincide in an article. I hope you're not opposing because you don't believe me. I would understand it if it was because the article lacks the material to establish its notability with enough third-party coverage. It simply does not have such coverage of the additional material you're referring to. Also, this isn't as surprising to me, since Fela never charted in the UK; attention from the music press back then would likely have helped it chart, such as in the case of Marquee Moon (#Commercial performance). Even in a search for just "Fela Kuti", there's nothing at GoogleNews for that decade ([4]) and almost nothing at Books ([5]). At Rock's Backpages, which archives notable UK magazines, a search for "Fela Kuti" in that decade also came up with nothing, except a '72 article that seemed to be written only because of Ginger Baker having worked with Kuti ([6]). Again, I wouldn't have expected much Western attention to be paid to a Nigerian artists during the '70s, but I nonetheless searched as extensively as possible. Dan56 (talk) 09:11, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Eduemoni

  • Comment - The article is solid, very well written and sourced, but does the article already reached its content limit? Ain't there any information or content that should be added to it? I think I'm missing something, but where is its recording and producing info? Shan't it have its own section? There is a section about release and reception, but I think this is misleading, there isn't textual information about its chart performance. Eduemoni↑talk↓ 22:44, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The recording info is widely known. Kuti recorded all his studio work between 1970 and '77 in the studio in his commune, the Kalakuta Republic.Venuzza67 (talk) 02:11, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It was not widely known enough for a published source to explicitly say this album was recorded there. Dan56 (talk) 02:35, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's a fact, Dan56, known by anyone with the slightest awareness of Fela's political life. If you look at early prints of the album, including the French versions, Kalakuta is clearly listed. If I knew how to upload a photo, I'd show you. But I can't do all your work for you. Fela also recorded during the same period at Abbey Road, but that was live with an audience. And he was working still with Ginger Baker in Lagos. But "Confusion" had all the main tracks recorded in Kalakuta, and the mixing was done in LA. Also, you should note more clearly that Confusion marks the first time Fela played sax on record. Are there any editors with a bit more background on Fela to help round out Dan's article? He's doing a fairly decent job, but he needs the finer points.

Thanks. Venuzza67 (talk) 03:18, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What he needs, to add the information noted here, are sources. Original research isn't going to cut it. Flat Out let's discuss it 09:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is not the venue to continue your personal attacks towards me (my talk page can be found here) If you have any comments or criticism based on reliable published sources rather than original research, please offer it. Otherwise, neither your personal claims of what is fact (WP:NOTTRUTH) nor your condescending tone are helpful here. Here is an upload of the original French LP from Discogs. Kalakuta is clearly not listed. The original Nigerian sleeve appears only to show the credits and a lyrics sheet. If you have an edition that verifies your claim, you can upload a photo of it through this (licensing info wouldn't be important since it would be a temporary upload either way). Dan56 (talk) 04:19, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The recording studio, in this case, has political and social ramifications aside from just being a logistical concern. It's easily verifiable information- Fela was recording at the commune- Gentleman and then Confusion. He also did some work at A.R.C., ginger Baker's place in Lagos at the same time, but not on his own album. It's vital to introduce the political chaos surrounding this album, even the incident with Paul Mccartney, in which Fela confronted him and accused him of "stealing" from African musicians, as well as Fela's increasing militancy, allignment with the Black Panthers (via an intro from his girlfriend), is It may be a bit beyond the scope of your article, but Mccartney's refusal to record with Baker was cited by a Kuti associate as a precipitating force in Kuti's escalating mental anguish regarding his ill feelings toward Europe, even though Kuti had enjoyed London for most of his youth. "Confusion," the song (and, therefore album) is concerned exactly with these themes, and tied to Kuti's dissapointment in the lack of African response to what he saw as urban oppression. To leave out the recording information is a glaring omission- by recording at the compound, Kuti was making a political statement. He didn't want to work at EMI in Lagos anymore- and declared the commune independent of Nigeria. This led to the raid in '77 in which Kuti's mother was injured and died shortly after. Follow Kuti's engineer, Emmanuel Odenusi, to all the the recording information. Odenusi only worked at the commune with Kuti, later becoming a fixture at EMI. You should definitely include that he premiered his sax playing on the album- and, although he wasn't much of a player, on sax or trumpet, it's historic and important, in that it showed his increasing emergence as a leader and organizer, and, in a tangential though some say critical way, his emergence as a sociopolitical threat to the government. It's precisely because of Kuti's belief that venue, ie., independence, mattered, that the Nigerian soldiers destroyed the studio and commune. By destroying his "independence," they hoped to crush the threat. The reason I said to use the term "Naija," is because it will bring up more sources that are Nigerian, due to the fact that Nigerians tend to favor the term Naija.

Thanks Venuzza67 (talk) 15:07, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Tomica

  • After reading the article I feel confident to support. The article is well written, sourced and thorough. What I noticed only, can you provide which studio album [by number] is it? Cheers! — Tomíca(T2ME) 17:24, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • No sources mentioned the chronology; fela.net shows a discography and catalog page, but it's too vague to cite; for instance, there are 3 1974 albums with no discernible chronological order. I think if I introduced a guess in the article like "fifth studio album", it would easily be challengeable. Dan56 (talk) 17:53, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Check this out Dan for Chronology- http://www.scaruffi.com/vol1/kuti.html

Venuzza67 (talk) 03:32, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I already incorporated Scaruffi's page in the article (specifically his quote "one of his most challenging..." in the reception sec.), but it doesn't delineate the chronology--all the boldfaced titles aren't suggested by him to be complete, let alone in order, as he introduces his critique of the recordings by saying "They include...", meaning part of a whole. Scaruffi also listed the year for Confusion as 1975, so it's safe to say he's no Martin C. Strong or anything. The impression I get from MOS:ALBUM#Lead is that the chronological description in the lead is a generality, but not essential, such as with The Basement Tapes. Dan56 (talk) 04:21, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Flat Out

I support the nomination of this article. The article is very well written, and well sourced and referenced. I agree that some in depth analysis of inception, recording and production aspects of the album would balance out the article but I accept that this is beyond the limits of the available sources. Good job. Flat Out let's discuss it 09:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

the only other suggestion- have you got your hands (or eyes) on the booklet included with the new Ginger Baker curated compilation? Or the Chris May booklet in the Kniting Factor edition-- I'm not sure it's specific regarding the production dates etc, but it may shed light.

Venuzza67 (talk) 10:47, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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