Talk:HIV/AIDS denialism

NON neutrality

The phrase 'loosely connected' in the opening sentence is not neutral, or referenced. What does it actually mean? It's just biased, rhetorical, and persuasive, against those who are organized against the HIV/AIDS hypothesis. At best, it's not clear or concise and could be interpreted in many different ways. 218.161.67.186 (talk) 14:04, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

The phrase in the lede is supported by the text of the article in HIV/AIDS denialists' claims and scientific evidence. The phrase is used by secondary sources, for example the text linked in the section below. VQuakr (talk) 03:38, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Regardless the phrase, I agree with 218.161.67.186. on non-neturality.

This article also talks about some trend analysis which is hardly verifiable, "With the rejection of these arguments by the scientific community, AIDS-denialist material is now targeted at less scientifically sophisticated audiences and spread mainly through the Internet."

(Again, the whole page to me is really POV, Non-V and OR all in one.)

Just take a look at the preceding line "The scientific consensus is that the evidence showing HIV to be the cause of AIDS is conclusive[4][5] and rejects AIDS-denialist claims as pseudoscience based on conspiracy theories,[6] faulty reasoning, cherry picking, and misrepresentation of mainly outdated scientific data.[4][5][7]"

I mean, if the so-called mainstream scientists (or scientists backed by consensus..) are so mighty, then why insist on writing arguments at the level of social labeling, consensus and all? Also, some so-called AIDS-denialists just turn their back on the word "AIDS" because of how vague the term is, they don't even have a stand on the argument "HIV is the cause of AIDS", they just tell you that such sentence is hard to interpret or meaningless. --14.198.220.253 (talk) 00:38, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree that "loosely connected" is awkward here and there is no way to figure out exactly what it means. The only connection I can see here is that these people don't believe in the mainstream consensus. Usually when a group of people are connected by ideas or ideology only it's called a "movement." 216.175.108.129 (talk) 17:21, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

I suggest this edit: HIV/AIDS denialism is a dissident movement which questions the mainstream view that the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) is the cause of acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS).[1] Carnival Honey (talk) 17:26, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

I also agree that this sentence is awkward: "With the rejection of these arguments by the scientific community, AIDS-denialist material is now targeted at less scientifically sophisticated audiences and spread mainly through the Internet." How can anyone determine how sophisticated or unsophisticated an audience is? Does this article make a claim that internet readers are unsophisticated? Do only unsophisticated people use the internet? Or do you mean that peer-reviewed journals refuse to publish the views of dissident scientists, so that their main or only venue for speech is the internet? This sentence should be deleted or clarified. Carnival Honey (talk) 17:34, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

The sentence is referenced to a Plos One article that says pretty much that. No problem here. Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:08, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Mbeki is NOT a denialist

Man. I just don't understand how so many frame Mbeki as a denialist, as he obviously is not! Please, if you make such a claim, at least cite one source where he explicitly denies the connection between HIV and AIDS. Turns out it's absolutely nonexistent! He's really at most a dissident than a "denialist". Only because Harvard and New York Times, those seemingly "reputable" media make claims, even on highly dubious grounds, then you have to rever it as authentic? That's quite ridiculous. Sentences like "culminating in Mbeki's embrace of denialisim" is lamentably downright shocking in a Wikipedia article. Anon J (talk) 17:19, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

I understand that you're only trying to be helpful, but please don't make edits like this. The material you added was uncited - anything that you want to add to the article needs a reliable source. See WP:VERIFY. In addition, the material was written in a way that violates WP:NPOV. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 19:49, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Virusmyth as a source

The article states that, "As of August 2011, the denialist website virusmyth.com continues to claim that Root-Bernstein and Sonnabend doubt the role of HIV in AIDS." That statement has two sources. The first is indeed virusmyth, but the virusmyth site does not say what the article implies it does: it simply describes what Root-Bernstein's views were at the start of his career as an AIDS dissident. Given that Root-Bernstein changed his mind later, what the virusmyth site says about him is indeed potentially misleading, but it's not directly inaccurate since it doesn't state anything about what Root-Bernstein's present views are. The second source is used in a strange fashion: while the source is indicated as being virusmyth, it redirects to a different website altogether: http://www.aras.ab.ca/rethinkers.htm. I suggest that the reference to virusmyth claiming that Sonnabend still doubts the role of HIV in AIDS should be removed. It simply isn't backed up by the source given. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 03:58, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Up or down for the HIV/AIDS Theory/Theories - The scientific basis

WP:NOTFORUM
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
How the virus of HIV/AIDS stands to Leukemia... Also as entire data-set... The dubious histories of the HIV/AIDS Self-Help Kits from the 90s and what the contents of them are... The nature of the CD4 counts, as other factors may influence, "famine, illnesses, radiation..." The neuro-values of the patients' as well as determining any psychiatric factors, as much as the demand on one point from one Self-Help Kit (newspaper source)... The nature of the viruses and how they classify in terms of classical analysis, the bio-analysis vis-a-vis gene-analysis, also "petridish analysis"... The nature of the viruses more: what bacteria produce it? (Note on groups of viruses and bacteria, all produced by exactly bacteria...) Good? 62.16.242.213 (talk) 07:37, 12 April 2014 (UTC) What exactly are you proposing? Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:42, 12 April 2014 (UTC) It procedes from the article that the HIV/AIDS Denialists are without a kind of basis. As inquiry continues, the scientific reasoning for the public, valid for both sides of the HIV/AIDS disputes, should be from the above list... I can't find any other basis for disagreement and for that matter, the public will then clearly know what this revolves around. Agree? 62.16.242.213 (talk) 16:38, 12 April 2014 (UTC) Are you proposing an edit or do you have a source to bring? The talk page is for improving articles. Dbrodbeck (talk) 19:22, 12 April 2014 (UTC) I am proposing an edit, one that yields scientific points to both articles, HIV/AIDS and HIV/AIDS Denialism. In a democratic society, it's my view that the public has a right to balanced information and in this case, the above list, 6 pts., provides a critical light onto the HIV/AIDS as theory, one that may prove decisive! Can I be given some more time to come up with the references, please? Also, by the same listing, I ask the Wikipedia-community to work alongside so that criticism can prove successful or not (however, the countermoves toward Leukemia look strong, others cite Tuberculosis...). The symptoms list to HIV/AIDS is also massive. So, more time..., please? 62.16.242.213 (talk) 18:02, 14 April 2014 (UTC) Please look at WP:MEDRS and WP:UNDUE. We don't do fair and balanced, we go with the scientific consensus. The encyclopedia is always evolving, so there is no rush. Dbrodbeck (talk) 18:15, 14 April 2014 (UTC) Checked! (However, it can be stated that to WP:UNDUE for HIV/AIDS Denialism article there are the voodoo claims against HIV/AIDS in trying to present itself as HIV/AIDS Denialism in saying that HIV/AIDS proponents "are doing voodoo in the hidden" or whatever obscure "tiny minority" view!) Out from 62.16.242.213 (talk) 19:13, 14 April 2014 (UTC) I'd like to respond constructively to your posts, but I'm completely unable to comprehend them. Maybe it would help to propose a specific content change along with specific supporting sources. MastCell Talk 20:24, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

HIV=AIDS: Fact or Fraud? A Stephen Allen film.

added an external link to a 2 hour documentary full of citations to respected journals and various papers.

would be nice to work it into the article as there is a huge lack of neutrality in this article. definitely seems to be written with a foregone conclusion that denial-ism is wrong. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTxvmKHYajQ i found it very hard to watch the first time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.99.200.140 (talk) 15:51, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

A "documentary" produced by conspiracy theorists to promote fringe theories does not come anywhere near to meeting Wikipedia standards for reliable sources. The article as it currently is represents the overwhelming scientific consensus, and any inclusion of this movie would be undue weight. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 16:30, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Yep. And Wikipedia editors don't actually determine what is "right" and "wrong", we just follow the aforementioned reliable sources. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 16:35, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I vouch for this. The discussion by the links hold many fine, educated points from members of the BMJ. Can we add a Yes/No popularity button for this topic? 62.16.242.213 (talk) 20:34, 19 April 2014 (UTC)