Talk:Fox News/Archive 8

POV taken out on NOV. 1

I took out the chicken shack comment because it was an amatuer mistake, but I thought I should detail why I took out the DUI section under the alleged bias. The story itself was broken by a Fox affiliate, and not Fox news itself. Hope this clears that up.

Suggestions:

Put it in an article about that station or FOX affiliates.
Expand Wikipedias coverage of broadcast affiliates. We don't have them round here and I don't understand how they work. Doesn't FOX News still have to monitor affiliate output to protect its brand? Can affiliates be expelled from FOX's affiliate programme for misbehaving?

Tim Ivorson 08:11, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Breaking a national news story (however leaked by the Democrats) is never misbehaving. It doesn't matter if they disagree with the final outcome, they're still more concerned with money and viewers than their propoganda.--TheGrza 17:34, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)

I agree. Bush brought that on himself. (I had the BGH story in mind as misbehaving). However, I am still in the dark regarding the relation of FNC to "its affiliates." Tim Ivorson 21:58, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The relation is strenuous at best. There are 179 affiliates and NEWSCORP (which is as close to Fox News as you can get) only owns 34. It also doesn't own the one in Maine which broke the drunk story. As for the BGH (I didn't know about that one until you told me) I think it's a valuable peice of information that if anyone knows enough about (I clearly don't) they should put it in there. I might do some research tonight on the topic myself. As for the influence after that, I don't know how much influence is usually exerted or whether or not it comes in as much now after all the trials and publicity. Maybe the BGH trials allowed the Maine station to take down Bush for the drinking.
TheGrza 01:15, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)

Ann Coulter Comment

In the view of opinion columnist Ann Coulter the three misperceptions were "deceptive," based on "liberal talking points," and "designed to falsely portrary FOX News viewers as ignorant" was in the section discussing the misperceptions of FOX viewers. I took it out because the comment was supposedly to contrast a major study done with research principles with the opinion of a woman who has no facts to back up her assertions on the study. If anyone can find some actual facts to back up her assertions please put them in. If not, these two statements are clearly not equal in weight.
--TheGrza 03:14, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)

Criticisms of the report are certainly on point. A major study done with bogus assumptions still has bogus assumptions. Coulter is a major commentator and defender of FOX News, and this report should not simply be quoted with no rebuttal. Very Verily 03:17, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

TheGrza is right. That's all there is to it. But VV will revert and revert, preferring bullying to civilized discourse. It was bullying from VV that led me to more or less give up on editing. The right has been so successful at bullying people into silence by claiming to be a victimized minority. I'm tired of the lies about right-wing victimhood. The right controls a good portion of the so-called mainstream media, as well as the congress, the senate, and the White House. How long before liberals start fighting back against hypocritical bullies like VV? If this election taught anything to those of us on the left -- it's that it's really time to start bullying back. 68.1.174.46 03:46, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Wow, this is really on topic. Very Verily 03:56, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ann Coulter defends her position that the "misconceptions" are not 100% false in the eighth through the tenth paragraphs of the linked article. Also, I think rebuttals are fair game if they are directly relevant to FOX News, which the Coulter article is. To rebut the PIPA study by saying "some think the director of PIPA is a sanctimonious left-wing twit" would not work because information about the organization's politics belong on its article, but to cite Coulter's opinion on the study is certainly permissible. [[User:Rdsmith4|User:Rdsmith4/sig]] 04:14, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, stupid NPOV rule, it's prevented me from using the term "sanctimonious left-wing twit" on some very worthy subjects (PIPA and FAIR come to mind). Very Verily 05:12, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm not aguing about whether or not there should be a rebuttal, I think there should be. There should not be a rebuttal from someone who would disagree with (almost [added]) anything that goes against FOX news (regardless of fact[removed]). Perhaps there is a statement to be made about the disagreement with the three points without involving someone like Coulter, and even using another study to point out how this one is wrong. The website you pointed to also is just another biased treatment on the issue. Please try to find an unbiased source to rebut the article or challenge it's validity. --TheGrza 06:01, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)

This is ad hominem. Either her defense is legitimate, or it is not. Whether she "would" disagree or not with anything is immaterial; all that matters is whether she offered valid criticism in this actual case. I feel her critiques are legitimate, and so does Rdsmith4 above. There doesn't need to be a whole other study to point out the flaws in this study, either; just noting problems with its methodology is adequate, and this is what Coulter does. At any rate, I'd rather have a flawed or incomplete rebuttal than no rebuttal at all, even if it's a stop-gap while you find something better (if you do). Also, you should not mark content changes as "minor edits", and should generally try to avoid reintroducing typos and the like. Very Verily 06:59, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The typo that you refer to had nothing to do with the section of the article I changed or was reverting. It existed before and after I arrived at this article. As for the "minor edit" complaint, I do sincerely apologize. I have been making many minor edits lately I think I just did it out of force of habit.

As for the rest of your comment, my argument was not an ad hominem attack and to accuse me of such a thing while I have been completely civil is ridiculous. I was only suggesting that she was clearly not in any way in the spirit of NPOV and that her specific defense was not legitimate. To suggest that, for instance, the meeting in Prague took place contrary to CIA findings simply because liberals criticize the CIA and a single Judge found a link does not establish anything. Also, her own ad hominem attacks on NPR listeners or suggesting that liberals say that Halliburton had a link with Osama bin Laden degade any useful information she adds. Because she had a point has nothing to do with how she arrived at such a place and her defense of such a position is weak. I was simply suggesting that there are more valid and reputable critics than the far right, namely the facts on the issue. Wikipedia also isn't about balancing points of view, it's about eradicating them as best as they can. The points that they bring up are hurt and the tenuous existence of NPOV on this article is threatened by such an appearance. I put the actual argument into the article, instead of adding that one person or another disagreed with the findings. There are many "reputable columnists" (a completely meaningless term) who disagree with a lot of things but their opinions do not belong in Wikipedia. Next time, try to put in fact, not opinion. --TheGrza 07:44, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC) (sorry I was editing and adding to my comment)

I was not accusing you being uncivil, as in making an ad hominem attack on me. Rather, my claim is that saying that because Coulter is a rabid right-winger who would defend FOX at any cost (uh, allegedly) that therefore her arguments should not be considered, is ad hominem (referring to the person Coulter instead of what she is saying). Wanted to clear that up. I'll look at the rest now. Very Verily 07:50, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think you're missing that the fact/opinion divide is not the operative one here. We enforce NPOV by saying, "Some assert X, but critics of this view assert Y." Whether these are opinions or not is immaterial, they could be disputed facts. Anyway, better yet than this is to name and cite critics, which is what is done here. You may not have been around for when I first put that rebuttal in in July, but I was more vague then, and it was other editors who insisted on simply referring to Coulter instead of "critics such as Coulter". The fact is, for better or for worse she is a prominent critic, just as Chomsky is and gets his inane opinions splashed all over Wikipedia articles. Very Verily 07:58, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I understand the fact opinion divide, and the use of differing voices in developing a NPOV article. I also realize that not all positions are equal and were I to say something and Ann Coulter to say something, she would get more precedence here because of her stature as a national columnist. But she is in no way an impartial observer, nor does she pretend to be. I feel that PIPA is somewhat un-biased and I think whatever you feel about PIPA they are LESS biased than Coulter making their two statements unequal in terms of validity. The facts in this case should speak for themselves rather then having one more impartial observer (and I know the "impartiality" of poll is somewhat suspect, but c'mon, they're more impartial then Ann Coulter!) and one less. As for Chomsky, he should also not be in these articles. It's silly to say that because of one case of unfairness we should have two. Take out Chomsky, Take out Coulter. Take out Zinn and Limbaugh too. Don't include one to spite the other because there is no way that's NPOV and lets agree to put FACTS into the articles instead of opinions. --TheGrza 08:09, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)

In my opinion, Ann Coulter's comment does merit inclusion. It is relevant and the more information, the better. Wikipedia shouldn't express an opinion on the weight that her view deserves, but readers can hardly be confused about what she stands for. (I expect Coulter to say this sort of thing regardless of whether it is true, because it appears consistent with her agenda. However, if Noam Chomsky had said it, that would be very interesting, not because he is more important, but because he doesn't usually say this sort of thing. I expect that readers will take a similar view, but it might be a good idea to mention in this article that she is a neo-conservative, or whatever the hell she is, just in case readers confuse her with Noam Chomsky).

On the other hand, I believe that Coulter is crazy and dishonest, but to say that without attributing it to anybody would hardly be NPOV (though if the general public, or someone important, thought that she is crazy and dishonest, that might be worth saying). Also, if her comment is being included because of who she is, then ad hominem attacks seem appropriate. If the opinions themselves are interesting, regardless of whether she held them, then she doesn't need to be mentioned. (I think that, even if the opinions are interesting in their own right, details of public figures who made high-profile voicings of them would be interesting). Tim Ivorson 10:55, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

NPOV does not cover other peoples' opinions. If an opinion is relevant to the subject of the article, and is attributed to someone else notably, that it is (I repeat) fair game, and is in fact desirable. I don't think we need to worry about her being confused with Noam Chomsky. Coulter's political preference (while obvious from the statements she makes) belongs on her article, as do criticisms of her that are not directly relevant to FOX News. [[User:Rdsmith4|User:Rdsmith4/sig]] 13:15, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree that NPOV does not cover other people's opinions. Tim Ivorson 16:22, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

NPOV

A large chunk of the Bias section earns a discussion on weather or not it is NPOV. While the defense of Fox and supporters is argued in the beginning, it loses that in the middle and end. The defense should be there, or people will think it is undeniable fact. I realize it's about the bias FOX gets, but their defense should be at least mentioned.