Talk:New Zealand College of Education

This page was proposed for deletion by Stuartyeates (talk · contribs) on 1 October 2019.

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PROD

MurielMary, you can't restore a PROD after it's been removed. Second, I don't know what's on 60 Symond Street and it doesn't matter--what you say is irrelevant also (because that's OR). Third, there is at least a website, this one. If, one way or another, this is some kind of hoax, existing on the web alone, then you will have to find something reliable to bolster that claim. Drmies (talk) 01:29, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I see. So what kind of evidence can you suggest that would be satisfactory to show that this college doesn't exist? There is no employer of this name in Auckland, there is no campus in Auckland, there are no staff and no students. It doesn't exist on the government list of educational institutions or the list of Catholic educational providers (in fact tertiary providers can't affiliate to a church in NZ). Any suggestions? MurielMary (talk) 01:41, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'd be interested in suggestions as well. It might be true there is a website, but it is the first one I have ever seen for an educational institution that doesn't include a contact phone number.Moriori (talk) 02:52, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The article may fail WP:ORG, so it could be listed at Articles for Deletion. It's a more involved process than PROD, but it allows for wider community discussion, including verification of sources – or lack of same. Personally, I can't find much in the way of coverage in reliable secondary sources. – Liveste (talk • edits) 11:23, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This probably fails WP:CORP and that is the requirement for schools of this nature. Glad for the help. COuld not see any way this is notable.-- Deep fried okra 20:03, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hijacked article

The article was originally on the Auckland College of Education, and was moved to its current name in October 2017. Since this is clearly not on the same subject as the original, I propose moving it back to the original name, and resetting it to the last good edit, which is by Hugo999 on 6 December 2016.-gadfium 03:58, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just realised that won't work, as the ACE article was recreated after the move and now has much more content.-gadfium 04:12, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gadfium, I wonder why the ACE article was "at" NZCE. I don't see that name in the article. What I find odd is that I saw some mentions of NZCE in some books, going back to 1982--long before the (alleged?) foundation of "this" NZCE. So I think there is a possibility that the ACE had a name change or something like that--but it doesn't seem to be documented. Drmies (talk) 15:17, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Drmies, I asked a friend who's been with ACE for a long time, and she says it has never been called that.-gadfium 18:29, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In the 1960s, 70s and at least until the early 1980s there was a New Zealand College of Education in Dunedin. I don't think it had anything to do with the Dunedin Teacher's College, but it may have had association with the Department of University Extension, University of Otago. Nurg (talk) 00:49, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hoax

The very first edit had a fake source. I think this could be G3'd on that basis.-- Deep fried okra 20:38, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What fake source? Nurg (talk) 06:50, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Drmies, I think we've been snookered. Can you see an actual source, beyond the dubious website, that supports this meeting WP:CORP?-- Deep fried okra 20:40, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there are mentions in various books--not much, but something. Hey, I'm not going to stand in the way of a G3 deletion, and I really don't want to go look for this stuff again: I saw a few mentions that indicated that the full name was used in print--but one of those, as I said elsewhere, was in 1982 or so. If you and ... MurielMary, was that the other editor's name? are convinced it's a hoax, then nuke it. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 20:56, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And this? I don't know exactly what this is. Also, I see extensive edits by User:Stuartyeates, who's pretty sharp--Stuartyeates, did you wonder what this was? And so this is where the BS started? Gadfium, this is where the article changed from one topic to another. Drmies (talk) 21:01, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've no idea about this. G3 seems like a good approach. Stuartyeates (talk) 23:08, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have no objection to a G3 speedy delete, but as there's an AfD in progress I've contributed to that discussion.-gadfium 01:27, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Diploma mill?

I am not sure that "hoax" is the right word for NZCOE. "Scam" may be much more accurate. But I wonder whether it is, more precisely, a diploma mill. Nurg (talk) 22:42, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Diploma mill" strikes me as (intentionally) a fairly imprecise word - not a legal description. But we're not required to use legal descriptions in writing an encyclopedia. It would ultimately be unreadable, except for lawyers, and imprecise as well, depending on the jurisdiction you live in. From our article diploma mill:

"A diploma mill (also known as a degree mill) is a company or organization that claims to be a higher education institution but provides illegitimate academic degrees and diplomas for a fee.[1][2] .... An individual may or may not be aware that the degree they have obtained is not wholly legitimate." The first reference is to the US FTC site [1] includes "A 'diploma mill' is a company that offers 'degrees' for a flat fee in a short amount of time and requires little to no course work."

The first part is essentially that you can buy the diploma - just the piece of paper with the "institution's" name on it as well as your name and the name of a degree. I doubt many of these exist anymore in developed countries. The second part is that the "institution" tries to fool the "student" at least a little bit and the "student" is a victim. This is likely much more common now. Either version, or anything in between, could be called a diploma mill.

If New Zealanders got a degree from them, I'd guess it's more like the simple purchase of the piece of paper. Probably there aren't too many of them. The fake phone number and the fake address shouldn't fool them one bit. But for overseas students, I think they're being fooled and are real victims.

I'm going to try to write a short article for The Signpost on this scam. Anybody with information on it is invited to email me. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 04:22, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]