Talk:Surya Siddhanta

Mamuni Mayan or Mahamuni Maya (Asura)

In the introduction, it is written that the work was done 10,000 years ago which can not be true! NicolasDelerue 20:44, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

According to Vastu ² Vaastu Consulting and Audarya Fellowship, Brahmarishi Mayan is supposed to have lived over 10,000 years ago in a now-submerged land south of India and then migrated to southern India. He is supposed to have written many mathematical and physical texts at the level of modern science (nuclear physics, etc.) which were not understood by past scholars so they excluded them from the Vedas. V. Ganapati Sthapati claims to have recovered those texts. Vedic astrology includes the "Ancient Surya Sidhata" by Maya. I have doubts that this is the modern Surya Siddhanta, so I am removing that entire paragraph. Furthermore, no specific source was provided, just the government of Tamil Nadu, whose capital, Chennai, is where Sthapati is headquartered. If Mayan is supposed to have written at the level of modern science, how did he manage to write a treatise that had to be revised at least twice and is still inaccurate? — Joe Kress 03:17, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Translations

no evidence for translations (into Arabic, Latin or any other language) is presented for times predating 1858. The Arabs in the 8th century translated Brahmagupta and Aryabhata, but I can find no evidence that this obscure text made it into Arabic. dab (𒁳) 09:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Vinay Jha

you can recover your old version by using the "history" tab at the top of the page. Please be aware of WP:NOR, you cannot publish your calculations here. dab (𒁳) 14:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

To DAB : please give me your email address so that I could explain my view to you. I know you are not interested in my views, but you do not know what harm you have done to Wiki. Your article contains serious errors. I could not find link to your email address in your user page. I know why you are avoiding communication with me, but you do not know the truth about Surya Siddhanta. - vinayjhaa@gmail.com

nonsense, I am not avoiding communication. I am communicating with you right here. Please try to figure out how to use these talkpages. Also, if you cannot find the "email this user" link on my talkpage, I don't know how to help you. Also, try to get a fundamental idea of the purpose of Wikipedia: read WP:ATT, WP:NOR. I have created Mamuni Mayan, which appears to be a topic of Tamil national mysticism, including the claim of Surya Siddhanta authorship. If you can point us to more information on that, I will be grateful. What is the Tamil spelling of Mamuni Mayan, and where in the five epics does he appear? Who has identified him with the Mayasura of the Sanskrit epics? Is that identification in the Tamil epic itself, or is it a later claim? dab (𒁳) 09:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

cut from article

You article claims that it is based upon Burgess. But it actually is based upon wrong ideas of a theosophist Dwight William Johnson which he deliberatety publicised in the name of Surya Siddhanta. Fowlwe and Fowler innocently took the wrong values of years from Johnson. From Fowler,you took it. I do not want to quarrel with all these people. I have a lot of valuable information, which you will be glad to read once you give me your email address. You can creeate a temporary email address for purpose, if you think I do not deserve your email address.

You will be surprised to know that a western publisher is publishing Surya Siddhanta editions after aditions, while the material inside has nothing to do with Surya Siddhanta. How many of experts of Surya Siddhanta have actually read it? Do some soul searching. Wiki is yours, and I will keep out, as you wish. But I cannot keep out of Surya Siddhanta, because I know it million times more than you do. I am not insulting you. I simply mean to say that I know the published as well as unpublisher oral traditions of Surya Siddhanta, from which almanacs are still made in India. You must change your attitude . If Wiki misinforms the public, the loss will be great. )

you are free to help improving this article. But if you want to contribute, you need to make an effort to understand how Wikipedia works. Read the following:

Wikipedia:Talkpages: Post your messages on the talkpage, not in the article

Wikipedia:No original research: We will only consider material that can be traced to notable publications.

Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth: We do not aim at presenting the "truth" on Surya Siddhanta. All we want to do is report on notable opinions. Your knowledge of the "unpublished Surya Siddhanta" is completely worthless on Wikipedia until you have published it somewhere else first.

until you show signs of having read and understood these pages, I will not continue this debate. dab (𒁳) 12:54, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

FACTS AND FICTION

To DAB : I had read WP:NOR &c before I had made my contribution to 'Surya Siddhanta' , which you removerd. I had merely mentioned in my message to you that I know published as well as unpublished versions of knowledge of Surya Siddhanta, but I had not added these unpublished things to Wiki. It is presently impossible for me to publish this unpublished version either in press or in Wiki,even if you wish it. But this unpublished version is completetely verifiable and in total conformity to the published version; it is not my invention. My mistake was that I informed you about my knowledge of this oral tradition , which you mistook to be what I had contributed to Wiki. Every word I had contributed was already published. For instance, I made a reference to Panchsiddhantika published by Chowkhambha of Varanasi, which you removed because you thought it to be outside your definition of "notable publications". But Chowkhambha is world's biggest publisher of books related to indology, and it has published scores of thousands of indological books in English, Sanskrit and Hindi, which are damned cheap compared to Western publications due to low costs of publication in India. Can it be declared to be unreliable just because it happens to be in India ? The book I had quoted was written by a German and an Indian, who were original researchers and original commentators of Panchsiddhantika. Hence, I think your comment refers not to Chowkhambha but to my book published by Sky Research Centre of Delhi, which is not a well known publisher. This book (Deduction of Modern Astronomy from Surya Siddhanta) contained what is expicitly implied in the name of the book. I knew that these equations would not be understood by those who do not possess a first hand knowledge of Surya Siddhanta, and therefore I was already constructing a web site where I wanted to transfer these calculations. But you intervened before I could shift this complicated material. But if you think this material is my invention, then you you are mistaken. You have yourself included materials in your articles which are figments of imagination from Johnson's 'Exegesis...', not verifiable. But each and every word I had contributed is absolutely veriable. Instead of allowing me a chance to defend myself, you imposed a ban, and refused to respond to my messages, which was leading me towards misgivings. Now as you have responded, I find your approach is perfectly rational and welcome. But I must clarify some points.

E. Burgess was unfortunate to have worked during a period when relations between Christian missionaries and Hindu pandits were at their worst, due to 1857 uprising in India. Burgess was a missionary. He could not win the confidence of a bulk of pandits, and therefore could not gain access either to the available commentaries (e.g., Siddhanta-tattva-viveka by Kamlakara Bhatta of 16th century,as well as other Sanskrit commentaries, which have never been translated in any language even today). Even the oldest commentary on Surya Siddhanta (Gooraartha-prakash by Ranganaatha) has not been translated even in any modern Indian language, leave aside any Western language. In spite of such problems, Burgess made dauntless efforts and succeeded in deciphering a majority of original verses, for which he must be thanked. But Sootiswoode, a fellow of Royal Society of Britain, made a better clarification of most important mathematical formulae of Surya Siddhanta in 1862 (Journal of Royal Society). I was surprised to find that Sootiswoode knew better than many heads of departments of Jyotisha in Indian universities who are supposed to be experts of the subject. Unfortunately, Sootiswoode was forgotten by later generations. But there were significant shortcomings in his work too, which no commentator cared to remove. Pandit Sudhakar Dwivedi (the collaborator of G.Thibaut in the commentary of Panchsiddhantika) wrote a commentary on Surya Siddhanta in Sanskrit, which was worse to that of Sootiswoode as far as elucidation of practical equations are concerned. At present, Sanskrit commentary by Pandit Kapileshwar Shashtri(1948) is considered to be the most exhaustive and clear among all commentaries on Surya Siddhanta by teachers and students of Jyotisha in all Indian universities where Surya Siddhanta is taught in Sanskrit medium. But even this commentary made no advancement upon Sootiswoode. Recently, some Indian and Western scholars stooped so low as to publish fake commentaries. Pt Ramchandra Pandey published a Hindi commentary of Surya Siddhanta (2000), which Chowkhambha published because Pt Pandey was head of department of Jyotisha in Benaras Hindu University (a central university of the government of India). He did not know practical formulae, but was bold enough to publish utterly false explanations, which I refuted in a peer-reviewed Journal of Jyotisha published from Varanasi(Jyotisha Vaijnaniki Patrika,2005). Pt Pandey failed to refute me, and kept silent. In my refutation, I published some unpublished equations, together with their explanations on the basis of existing text of Surya Siddhanta. But I did not publish all equations, because I had myself filed a lawsuit against another government Sanskrit university of India(KSD Sanskrit University), charging its faculty of being incapable of theaching Surya Siddhanta or any ancient astronomical text prescribed in the syllabus at post graduate level. I won the battle, but the university is not implementing the court order, for which I have again filed a contempt of court petition. Before this lawsuit is finally decided, I am unable to publish the obscure equations of Surya Siddhanta. Hence you should believe in me if I assert that I am not desirous of adding these unpublished equations of Surya Siddhanta to Wiki.

These equations are not mine, but are part of the original Surya Siddhanta, from which Surya Siddhantic Makaranda Tables were made in AD 1478 , which are the basis of all Surya Siddhantic almanacs being published in India. These tables can be made only from the unpublished equations I possess. Is it not a proof that these equations are not mine,but belong to the old tradition of Surya Siddhanta ? Makaranda Tables had been translated into Engligh by John Bentley who had opined in 1799 that Surya Siddhanta belonged to 1091 AD (Makaranda Tables has been translated into Hindi and published by Chowkhambha in 1998). Makaranda Tables are Surya Siddhantic : first verse of original Makaranda Tables (1478 AD) explicitly calls these tables to be Surya Siddhantic, and published as well as unpublished equations of Surya Siddhanta also prove these tables to be Surya Siddhantic. On these grounds even these unpublished equations are proven to be completely Surya Siddhantic. I did not give these unpublished equations in Wiki. I merely referred to these unpublished equations in my misplaced messages to you, and unfortunately you misunderstood me.

As far as ' Deduction of Modern Astronomy from Surya Siddhanta' is concerned, it is my book, but all its equations are totally based upon published versions of Surya Siddhanta. I am intending to put these equations on a new article ( in Wiki, if you agree, or in a new website if you disagree). But I am myself against the inclusion of these calculations in the article on Surya Siddhanta, not because they are unverifiable or wrong, but because these calculations are known to a few people and may lead to misgivings among those who rely upon popular commentaries and do not have time to examine the original text of Surya Siddhanta. The detailed verification of these calculations involves complicated math (which I did not and will not give in Wiki) and should not be included in the article on Surya Siddhanta. I had stopped editing Wiki due to this consideration, and was revising the article on Surya Siddhanta in Ms Word when you intervened.

Lack of commucication leads to misunderstanding. Now that you have responded, I see you are a rational creature. I want your cooperation. But I differ on one point from you : you say "We do not aim at presenting the "truth" on Surya Siddhanta. All we want to do is report on notable opinions". Who will decide whose opinion is 'notable' and whose opinion should be ignored ? Clearly, those persons should decide this issue who know the topic well. And it should be done in collaborative manner, within the guidelines of Wiki. 'No Original Research' may imply different meanings to different persons. Johnson's "Exegesis..." may be viewed by some to be an original research which gives results in the name of Surya Siddhanta , but it is actually the result of personal calculations made by him on the basis of certain intuitive observations made by Madam Blavatsky one century ago( the latter did not mention Surya Siddhanta). It is utter dishonesty to propound a new theory in the name of an ancient one. I improved that passage, and gave lengths of sidereal and tropical years as stated in existing version of Surya Siddhanta. You regarded Johnson's opinioons to be notable, because he published his work in West, and my opinions, which have been vindicated by Patna High Court , are not notable in your view because my book was published by a small Indian publisher. Surya Siddhanta is a book of mathematics, as far as its equations are concerned, and in mathematics personal opinions do not count, whether they are notable or not. The original text of Surya Siddhanta is the only authority about itself, and no third person has the right to say, rightly or wrongly, what is there in this text. If you feel it to be a tricky issue, you can resolve it through emails. I have guided many doctoral researches , and I know the policies of Wiki well. But I was annoyed because you were not responding, and also because I was unable to create an account in my name ( I created one in a fake name later) : 'Vinay Jha' and 'Vinayjhaa' still exist as users (these were created by me), but they do not work. If you can afford some time, please delete these two user names 'Vinay Jha' and 'Vinayjhaa' from Wiki, which were created by me but could not be activated due to reasons not known to me, so that I could change my fake user name to the genuine one and work in the Wiki.

You know I made no change to your editing after you removed my contributions, hence you should not prevent editing of Surya Siddhanta in Wiki: others may want to edit it.I was already observing a self-imposed ban. My only trouble was that I still do not know your email address, which you can post to vinayjhaa@gmail.com . I know the objectives of Wiki well and you can rely upon me, but you should not take any drastic action without trying first to communicate with me : this is also a Wiki policy. I hope you may work with me in many projects in future,once your misgivings are gone. This long letter is not fit for Wiki Talk, that is why I asked for youe email address.

The Surya Siddhantic sidereal year has 365.258756481 days, which is different from modern value, yet I call Surya Siddhanta to be accurate. It will seem illogical to you. But Surya Siddhanta clearly states that its planets are not the planets of physical world, they belong to a different world, and mathematical verification of this assertion of Surya Siddhanta is possible but very difficult and complicated. Before being repulsed by these comments, you should read the whole argument. If no 'NOTABLE' Western commentator recognised that Surya Siddhantic planets should not be confused with material bodies in the sky, it is their fault. Commentators are not the yardstick; the criterion is the text of Surya Siddhanta, which is available in English as well.Kamlakara Bhatta had stressed this peculiarity of Surya Siddhanta in 16th century. I had quoted Surya Siddhanta that "it states that it was composed over 2 million years ago". You asked for "citation needed". I can cite the chapter and verse of the text.You may find it in Burgess too. But modern commentators assumed Surya Siddhantic planets to be material bodies, and made a direct comparison with scientific values without taking a recourse to the Drik-pakshiya Ganita of Surya Siddhantic school. What I believe is immaterial, what the text states is truth, which Wikipedians must accept and write about,even if notable commentators overlooked these facts. You may avoid personal opinions, you should not avoid facts even if is stated by me or you. You must allow the truth of Surya Siddhanta to come out, which is not my personal opinion, but what is explicitly stated in the Surya Siddhanta itself , but deliberately or innocently ignored by many modern commentators. If one insists that Surya Siddhantic planets are material planets, then I cannot work for Wiki, because it is a falsehood not supported by the text. The best authority on Surya Siddhanta is Surya Siddhanta itself, which you should help me to bring forth. Many past commentators have stated true views about Surya Siddhanta, but they are being ignored. If Johnson's 'Exegesis..' is propagated as a genuine work on Surya Siddhanta, it will be disastrous for everyone interested in facts. He is guided by fanatic intuition which has no connection with Surya Siddhanta. Surya Siddhantic period of precession is 24000 years, on whose basis I had given correct values, which you removed.- Vinay Jha VJha 12:28, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Asura Maya

Further information: Mamuni Mayan

Surya Siddhanta,Old or New, has no connection with a single Dravidian word. Even Maya is etymologically related to Sanskrit root *ma, which means to measure. Surya Siddhanta is organically related to Vedic-Puranic tradition in its entirety. The only debatable point is that Surya Siddhanta was given to Maya Asura after the latter performed excruciating Tapasya (mortification of body to awaken the soul or to appease gods/God). Asuras were opponents of Vedic tradition and of Vedic gods. But asuras and rakshasas like Prahalaada, Vibhishana, Maya,etc had reformed themselves. Ethnically or linguistically, it is impossible to distinguish asuras from the adherents of Vedas. The difference was ideological and religious,not racial. Maya belonged to Vedic bandwagon, which is clear from all ancient stories about him. It is also not proven whether this Surya Siddhantic Maya was the same as that of Mahabharata or of Ramayana. The oldest strata of sangam literature can be placed to a few centuries before the Christ, although many historians believe that some fragments of this literature contains much older stories preserved by oral tradition . Harappans had links with Kolar gold mines in Karnataka and iron was used in South India as earlier as its use began in North India(circa 11th century BC). Hence ancient peoples ( perhaps Dravidians) existed in the south. But they were megalithic, and had a low level of material culture. No trace of Jyotish in Tamil Nadu can be proven before the Christ, although it might have existed. Surya Siddhanta is a non Dravidian work. In south India, Arya Siddhanta is hundreds of times more popular among traditional almanac-makers, which also proves that Davidians had no native siddhanta of their own (the lost Arya Siddhanta is the basis of many present day almanacs !). Your site Mamuni Mayan is well conceived, but you have opened a Pandora's Box, which will grow out of control later. Some people correlate the Maya with Maya of Americas, while other find Maya in the name of Ptolemy ('-my ' in Ptolemy originally sounded very similar to Maya-s). But no serious scholar takes such views into consideration. Some Dravidian nationalists are so desirous about inventing a non-Aryan pre-history that they are ready to associate themselves with demons of Aryan mythology. Such 'scholars' do not represent the Tamil masses, which believes in gods of Hinduism and not in demons of Hinduism.Tamil Jyotisha is very old, and one may conduct research on the similarity between geometrical design of Chinese horoscope with Tamil.None of the fundamental concepts of Tamil astronomy or astrology can be distinduished from those of North India, the differences are minor and of regional nature,and belong to post Christian era.- Vinay Jha VJha 12:32, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

are you sure you have read Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines? It says there,

if your post is longer than 100 words consider shortening it. Long, rambling messages are difficult to understand, and are frequently either ignored or misunderstood.

most of what you say is completely beside the point. Obviously, the Chowkhambha edition of Panchasiddhantika is perfectly fine. Discuss it at Pancha-Siddhantika. You may also introduce a "Pancha-Siddhantika" section here. The point is that there is no fixed text called the "Surya Siddhanta". It is impossible to discuss a text that is really just a title with lots of varying texts attached to it. The Burgess edition is "the" Surya Siddhanta for present discussion. All other versions need to be introduced and qualified. I have no idea what you are referring to when you say that "The Surya Siddhantic sidereal year has 365.258756481 days", [the precision of 1E-12 or 30 microseconds per year alone establishes this as nonsense] you need to cite who has calculated this number, in what publication. dab (𒁳) 12:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Jha (2006)

your own book,

Vinay Jha, Deduction of Modern Astronomy from Surya Siddhanta, Sky Research Centre, Delhi (2006), ISBN xxxxxxxxxxxxx

may well be cited here, responsibly, with a brief summary of Jha's (your) opinion on the topic. It appears that this is self-published. No evidence of the existence even of this "Sky Research Centre" is available online. worldcatlibraries.org (which lists very obscure literature) gives no pertinent result for Vinay Jha. I am afraid you will first have to show that your book even exists. Maybe your first step should be to compile your own website on your ideas, so that Wikipedia will at least have that to work on. dab (𒁳) 12:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

according to your self-description,

In 2006, a book was published in Hindi in which all major constants of modern astronomy were mathematically deduced, by means of theorems, from Surya Siddhanta ! But the author stated that Surya Siddhantic planets occupy different positions in heaven than material planets (Vinay Jha,2006),which amounts to stating that there are at least two universes, one phenomenal universe of matter open to human senses, and the other noumenal universe of gods who are presiding deities of material planets of phenomenal world [...] If the claims made in this Hindi book is accepted, it will mean that constants of modern astronomy were known to ancient Surya Siddhantic scholars with a high degree of precision !

I am sorry, but this is blatant WP:FRINGE/pseudoscience. If you really have a stringent derivation of "all major constants of modern astronomy" (which ones? "all"?), I suggest you publish a preprint on http://arxiv.org/ -- once your paper is hosted on arxiv.org, we may briefly refer to it. This is the very, very least: you cannot just come to Wikipedia and announce ground-breaking philological/archaeoastronomical discoveries that have not been announced even in preprint form. For chrissakes, even Subhash Kak puts his merry exploits on arxiv.org before pestering Wikipedia with them. dab (𒁳) 12:56, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of where Vinay Jha's researches and writings goes, if it's not where we can look at it, than the useful parts can't be included in the articles. It sounds like there might be enough information to put stuff in lots of articles (maybe not the main points, but the minority opinion sections for sure). I add my voice to Dab's, please host the information somewhere it can be looked at. --Rocksanddirt 15:47, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please take this original research elsewhere: once it's published, we may perhaps be able to briefly mention it as minority opinion. Until then, however, we really don't need this material. Moreschi ^Talk 15:58, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

NO ORIGINAL RESEARCH

To DAB : You conjectured that my book 'Deduction of Modern Astronomy from Surya Siddhanta' was self-published, because no evidence of the existence even of this "Sky Research Centre" is available online. I did not publish it ; the person who published it in his own press is Murari Vajpeyi, who has never visited the town I live in, but we had met in a conference on Surya Siddhanta in Varanasi's Sampoornanand Sanskrit University. But Sky Research Centre is a small publisher, as I had stated earlier, and it might not have tried to make any of its publications online. As far as my book is concerned, it is certainly not online. I had provided full address of the publisher, which you deleted, and now other users think that my book cannot be located or does not exist.Only a small minority of publishers in India are online. Its second edition is in pipeline.I was planning to make this book online, but now I find that people want to learn Surya Siddhanta without reading the original text(of Burgess or of anyone else). Taking cue from you, Moreschi has also advised :"take this original research elsewhere: once it's published, we may perhaps be able to briefly mention it".He though my book was unpublished and original,not based upon Surya Siddhanta. He ought to have said "take the section 'Deduction of Modern Astronomy from Surya Siddhanta' elsewhere, which was what I had also opined. I am sure Moreschi did not read this section which you deleted. It is not an original research, because it is based upon published version of Surya Siddhanta (including that of Burgess). Original reasearch was conducted by Dwight William Johnson in his Exegesis of Hindu Cosmological Time Cycles...' which you wrongly believed to be based on Burgess . Johnson quoted a few verses from the translation of Burgess, and then said that on the basis of these verses the length of Surya Siddhantic sidereal year actually comes to be 365.2563627 days, although the text(and Burgess) gives a value 365.258756 which appeared to Johnson to be an slip of pen by the original author of Surya Siddhanta ! Please read Johnson's work which is online, his value 365.2563627 is proven on the basis of his imaginary method for which he could not provide a single reference to any ancient or modern source. He is deliberately distorting the contents of an ancient text, presenting his baseless calculations as being based upon Surya Siddhanta. I suspect him of being influenced by some Theosophist or Hindu-chauvinist organisation, because I found that his method is based upon certain writings of Madam Blavatsky and not upon Burgess and he deliberately and wrongly tried to prove that the sidereal year of Surya Siddhanta was very near to modern value, which is a lie. You included this original research of Johnson in your article on Surya Siddhanta. My work was not an original research, but an elaboration of Surya Siddhantic mathematics. You are a balanced and rational person, and I believe you will ultimtely discard your over-scepticism of me once you know the matter. Before that, do not declare my work to be an original research or pseudoscience, because those users who have not read either the original text (of Burgess or of anyone else) or my book are being misled by your epithets about my work. Your own article on Mamuni Mayan is based upon original research by dubious persons, please read my notes on talk page of Mamuni Mayan.Your article on Surya Siddanta also contains original research taken from Johnson, which no one will be able to prove on the basis of any original or translated version of Surya Siddhanta. Wikipedia does not deserve such items, but if you want to include them, you must state the whole truth and not a lopsided account, or allow me to do so. I have edited Vedanga Jyotisha recently, in which I found a lopsided account was given which did not tally with views of mainstream indologists; please read it together with my notes on the talk page. But I did not delete what I knew was a lopsided view, I merely gave a balanced account, giving all points of views and arguments behind all principal views. Wikipedia should not present a lopsided view. Please bear patience with me, and wait for further articles and messages from me before taking any decision. Indology is a tricky issue and no one can be allowed to have a final say.- Vinay Jha.

take it easy. I take your word for it that your book is "published", i.e. exists on paper somewhere. The trouble is, if it doesn't have an ISBN, if it isn't catalogued anywhere, you might as well have written it on the inside of a cave. We could list your book here, if it was just listed in some Indological bibliography, somewhere. But for us to actually discuss any claims contained in it, per WP:RS, you will need to show that your book is peer reviewed, that means, it has been reviewed in some notable journal, in this case either of Indology or Astronomy. Fortunately, since you are the author, this is not necessary. Surely, your book, being a quality publication, in turn relies on notable sources. This means that you can refer us to the published literature you base your claims on. Why don't you post the bibliography from your book and we'll see where this takes us. If you cannot get your book peer-reviewed and you cannot get an ISBN, I wonder what makes you think your book should be discussed on Wikipedia. You would do better to spend your time online compiling your own website, where you will be free to express your views without being hampered by Wikipedia policy. dab (𒁳) 13:00, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Very well put, Dab. To V. Jha: I understand that in this busy world you have "no time to be brief" (as Karl Marx put it). My advice: please find the time. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:58, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

To Vinay Jha: You misunderstand original research. It is not necessarily psuedoscience. Every advance made by modern science was original research before it was published in a peer-reviewed journal, at which time it ceased to be original research in the view of Wikipdeia. However, even after it has been peer-reviewed, the amount of space devoted to it in Wikipedia should be in direct proportion to the number of scholars in that field of research which hold that view. By your own admission, you seem to be having difficulty convincing other scholars, resorting to litigation against a university and denigration of some scholars' views as "fake commentaries". Citing the Surya Siddhanta is not sufficient—you must convince other scholars to show that your view is not a minority view. Unfortunately, entrenched views of the "establishment" may not allow that to happen for several decades. Alfred Wegener had proposed continental drift in 1912, but it was not accepted until the 1960s. Nevertheless, during most of this period, his opinion would not have been viewed as original research by Wikipedia simply because other scholars were aware of it and had commented on his published views, albeit negatively.

To dab: I have seen several editors revert the work of other editors by citing Wikipedia's Conflict of Interest guideline. Here, the Legal antagonists section and excessively Citing oneself section are applicable. — Joe Kress 19:18, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

To Joe Kress

DAB's viewpoint is perfect. I never insisted that my book must be discussed in Wiki. I had only asked for his opinion whether I should put some intricate math relating Surya Siddhanta with modern astronomy on a new website or on a new page in Wiki, because I was sure the article on Surya Siddhanta was not a proper place for it. He voted for a new website, adding that my book "may well be cited here, responsibly, with a brief summary of Jha's (your) opinion on the topic." I fully endorse this view of DAB,and therefore there is no controversy now.

The confusion was created by additional remarks by DAB and some other users, which implied that some users had not read my contributions to Wiki and were misinterpreting mine or DAB's remarks. You(Joe Kress) should not think that I do not know the meaning of original research, I was using this term in irony which you missed, but DAB understood because he has worked on the topic. You are mistaken that mainstream scholars are against me. Only one person (head of department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University) is against me, not on any academic point, but because he wanted to keep me out of any discussion on Surya Siddhanta in order to hide his own incompetence which was later proven by his own university which voted overwhelmingly in my favour. I won the legal battle against him due to overwhelming support of all experts who were invited by the university to resolve the issue, but the head of department is now taking recourse to hideous means in order to convinve the court that my views had been implemented, while in reality he does not want to implement the decision which have been ordered by the Vice Chancellor (in my favour).

There is another scholar( a retired professor of Varanasi) whose commentary of Surya Siddhanta was refuted by me in a peer reviewed Journal of Varanasi, and no one refuted my views, and the debate ended there.

But these debates were mostly about method of finding true position of planets acoording to Surya Siddhantic method, and not about comparison of Surya Siddhanta with modern science. You are right in saying "citing the Surya Siddhanta is not sufficient—you must convince other scholars to show that your view is not a minority view. Unfortunately, entrenched views of the "establishment" may not allow that to happen for several decades." My book was read by almost all the mainstream scholars of India concerned with Surya Siddhanta, but no one has yet has either refuted or accepted my views. They are shying away from discussing this subject because it is not only difficult but risky as well. The theorems given in my book were not invented by me, they were handed over to me with the blessings of my departed teacher who was the Vice Chancellor on my university. Most people rely on secondary sources and do not read the original text of Surya Siddhanta (commented by Burgess or others). I will never be able to convince such persons.

Your remark is unjust that I am denigrating some scholars' views as "fake commentaries". You will laugh at those fake scholars when you know the truth. One was Pt Ramchandra Pandey, who wrote in his commentary that the value of equation of centre depended solely upon latitude of the onlooker ! I refuted his view and he refrained from challenging my view, because he was almost cipher in math but wanted to show himself as an expert of Surya Siddhanta.The debate ended there. Academic debate is not denigration. Students in India are being misled by his wrong commentary (in Hindi) of Surya Siddhanta.

The main point which all of you outside India fail to see is that Surya Siddhanta and methods based upon it are still the basis of religious almanacs for a majority of Indians, while for you it may be merely an ancient text having little or no relevance today. Whether Surya Siddhanta is correct or incorrect is another issue; I just mean to say that it still indespensable for Hindus. Timing for events like marriage cannot be decided without it. That is why it is a compulsory part of syllabus in all government sanskrit universities of India. I am sure it is not compulsory in any Western university. Therefore, I fear I will find few peers of Surya Siddhanta in West at present, although there were many in the past. I have not called any Western commentary as fake. Johnson's book 'Exegesis of Hindu Time Cycles' is not a commentary of Surya Siddhanta, it merely cited a few verses of Surya Siddhanta and then (deceitfully) said that on the basis of these verses the value of tropical and sidereal year was such and such. DAB thought these conclusions were genuine and cited them in his article on Surya Siddhanta. But Johnson was actually giving his own views, which had no connection with Surya Siddhanta. It is wrong,ethically, to express a novel idea in the name of an ancient theory. Johnson wanted to prove that Surya Siddhantic year was very close to modern value, which is not the case. Surya Siddhantic year has a very complicated relation to modern value, which I wanted to show, but DAB misunderstood me before I could finish. I will pu this matter elsewhere,mas suggested by DAB. Unfortunately, you are thinking Johnson belongs to 'mainstream' and my view is a minority view, because you have perhaps not read either his work or my contribution to Wiki. Your remarks are mainly based upon material in the talk page.

DAB has asked me to contribute to Surya Siddhanta page of Wiki, with just one qualification that the section dealing with relation of modern astronomy should contain my views only in a responsible manner, and the calculations of my book should be put elsewhere (on a separate website). I do not differ from him, hence you are mistaken if you think that there is any conflict of interest between DAB and me.

I have made scientific software for almanac making, and that has been used by Hindus in the New World. In India, many government and non-governmental organisations, including Bihar State Sanskrit Academy, are publishing Surya Siddhantic almanacs from my free software in many states of India .All my work is free, I do not work for money. I made these softwares because a majority of people in India cannot do without Surya Siddhanta, and hand-made almanacs are highly crude. The top brass of academicians entrusted with teaching Surya Siddhanta at post graduate level in India are in the editorial board of almanacs made from my software, of which I am only the mathematician. I am myself regarded as a peer by all these peers. Even those who may differ from me in private have never refuted any of my views publicly. It is only the relation of Surya Siddhanta with modern astronomy which is causing problems of comprehension, being a difficult topic. I do not know how to make this topic simple. Scientists do not know Surya Siddhanta, and pandits do not know science. I fail to find scholars like Bapu Dev Shashtri or E. Burgess in the present generation. Hence I am even thinking of burying my book, as my late teacher did, from whom I got all the crucial ideas. Everywhere indology is in decline. Original texts are not even being read .

Ask DAB if he has any conflict of interest now . Conflict was created by lack of communication. I am sorry that a useless debate was created, just because there was some unknown technical problem which prevented me from becoming a user, and therefore I was forced to contribute anonymously. Otherwise he must have contacted me before taking recourse to extreme steps. I think the controversy is over,and it is growing too big and is not necessary for future contributors to this article.

Please read my contribution to talk page on Mamuni Mayan. - Vinay Jha.VJha 05:05, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

can you please be more concise? I don't think anybody has the time to read your lengthy posts. Wikipedia is very simple: it wants you to cite your references point by point. Very boring really, but there you are. You are welcome to cite published academic references point by point, and we'll include those in the article. Protracted ramblings about epistemology in general on talkpages will be ignored. dab (𒁳) 12:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Requesting expert help to understand origin of planet diameter estimates

I am looking for help understanding recent edits to the articles Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn that claim there are estimates of the diameters of these planets in the Surya Siddhanta. If anyone can help confirm this and explain what method was used, I would appreciate you dropping by at this section in the Jupiter talk page. Thanks. CosineKitty (talk) 03:20, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Looking at the reference, it's complete bull. The Surya Siddhanta vastly overestimates the angular size of the planets and vastly underestimates the linear distance to them... about 1000% errors in both cases. This leads to a fortuitous calculation, but the result is quite tenuous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jsdillon (talk • contribs) 13:46, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Unheard of "theories"

1) The paper by Johson on "Exegesis of Surya Siddhanta", which I have canceled, is unacceptable on many counts. First was never published. Second many formulas are screwed up (at least on my browser) and can be fixed only with considerable effort. Most importantly is deceitful: for instance he proposes a formula to compute the sidereal yare and provides the result with many decimals, but unfortunately he is not able to compute them correctly. So the value, which he proposes and which appears everywhere in the paper, has no foundation at all and is also one day off values accepted by modern science. 2)The different value, so unbelievebly close to exact values, proposed in the paper has no source nor explanation. I assume is simply a claim boasted by a theosophist or other esotericist species. Pinea (talk) 17:20, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

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Journal of Scientific Exploration

Is Journal of Scientific Exploration reliable enough to use as a source for planet sizes?

Right now, in the planet characteristic section, it reads as if the Surya Siddhanta gave exact diameters of the multiple planets. There is no direct size given in the book but only apparent (angular) diameters and distances. Both of these are wildly wrong, but multiplying them gives a few numbers right. The paper given as reference suggests that this is because ancient Indians had some unknown method of measuring planet sizes accurately but not distances. This seems like a fringe theory to me. Also, the way the paragraph was written, it neglected to mention these issues. I have added a sentence about the problems now. But even now, things like the completely wrong size of the sun is missing, for example. I think that the entire paragraph needs to be considered fringe and removed. -- Raziman T V (talk) 18:04, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Also noticed that the paragraph was added by a user who is currently banned for "Long-term source misuse" -- Raziman T V (talk) 18:06, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

OK, I have gone ahead and removed the paragraph. Ready to restore it if need be -- Raziman T V (talk) 18:12, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree with your assessment. This is bunk. Stuff related to the Society for Scientific Exploration may be mentioned, but only with due caveats that this is about WP:FRINGEcruft. It is hilarious to me that, in 2019, there is still "Jagged85" material lurking in article namespace. --dab (𒁳) 17:42, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Raziman, if you have the time, please review Indian astronomy, Hindu astronomy and Jyotisha for fringecruft and scope overlap between articles. These topics need constant attention, because there is no end to the flood of dedicated but misguided or sub-standard additions (I exhausted my patience on this topic about ten years ago). --dab (𒁳) 17:57, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

There is an unfortunate amount of fringe on these topics on Wikipedia. I am not very active here, got to this page only because someone on Quora was using this Wiki page for bloated Ancient India claims. I will see what I can do -- Raziman T V (talk) 10:23, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

If someone wants to add a paragraph on the 2010 archaeastronomy paper, they should write a proper summary and create an "archaeastronomy" section. --dab (𒁳) 12:43, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Vandalism occurring on this page (removal of experimental and scientific publications)

I have noticed that few people (possible in a team) are working together to remove any section or references which dates the Surya Siddhanta to BC era.

In the modern science, much scientific testing and analysis has been done by several researchers. They have tested several astronomical observations recorded in Surya Siddhanta to date when those updates were recorded in the text. In consensus, the researchers have found that Surya Siddhanta had been a living text in which the latest updates is around 580AD and earliest update being made in 8th millennium BCE. Several updates were made in the mid period such as 6th millennium BCE, 3000 BCE etc.

there are two observation regarding the measurement of Obliquity of the ecliptic taken at different times which dates this update to Surya Siddhanta back to 2900BCE and 3000 BCE. Then there is an Observation of pole star both at NCP and SCP which can be easily confirmed by google that phenomena in around 3000 BCE.

These editors who are vandalizing the sections of dating of Surya Siddhanta, they have no standing in terms of modern science, have no bearing to reality whichever way you look at it.

I have tried to contact ChandlerMinh, RazimanTV, Dbachmann. They have no response to me raised concerns but rather are contacting each other to remove the edits. Now this new editor RegentsPark whose page is filled with many many editors blaming him for prejudice against Indian Antiquity had jumped in. This completely seems like Vandalism.

WIKIPEDIA IS A NEUTRAL SOURCE OF INFORMATION

The sanctity of Wikipedia must be protected by stopping vandalism. Removal of sections and references is against Wikipedia policy, when it is done only on the basis because a group (possibly) a team of editors "do not LIKE" it.

Science does not progress with someone's liking or disliking. It progresses by proving the past narrative incorrect with new and better experimental and empirical evidence.

regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by RahulChawla1990 (talk • contribs) 02:03, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

@rahulchawla1990 thanks for writing this article. I agree with you. I checked your references of several researchers. They are interesting read and seems very reliable. I support you to stop the vandalism of this wikipedia page of Surya Sidhant. I have also reverted back to your edits. I try to add more sources to it if I have time. --Gurnidar (talk) 02:53, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

@Gurnidar Thanks for your support here mate. You figured out the issue here aeye? Good on ya. Regardless, you are welcome to contribute to this Wikipage. It is certainly missing a lot of useful information. I have been reading Surya Siddhanta lately. I have read through several chapters - almost halfway. It is a very interesting book, I would highly recommend. But note that you are going to need a good understanding of Observational Astronomy to make sense of it. It is not an introductory text in any sense rather very advanced. So good luck.

I have realised that a lot of research is happening in the ancient Indian antiquity in terms of dating, deciphering, cracking codes and cracking the old astronomical observations encoded in stories and in Sidhantic forms such as this one in Surya Siddhanta. --RahulChawla1990 (talk) 13:19, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I have been reading works of several researchers about Surya Siddhant I agree with you @Gurnidar and @rahulchawla1990. There seems to be a group of people trying to remove as you said. No person has come here to dicuss this further because they have no response to why they would remove completely referenced sections from wikipedia.

Surya Siddhant is a book of science and they are infact in the page using very few references which contain to scientific analysis of the text rather are speculative in nature. Where as the references you added were scientific analysis and tested using computational analysis as the work of Anil Narayanan. --Harpreet1292 (talk) 05:56, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

@Anyone who would like to discuss the "HEAVILY REFERENCED" sections about the dating of Surya Siddhant, come here and discuss.

Removing "HEAVILY REFERENCED" section without reason is against the Wikipedia policy.

Some people are ganging up to remove heavily referenced sections from Wikipedia. From History I can see One person comes and remove the section without reason. Internal communication is happening between them. Then another person comes and remove the "HEAVILY REFERENCED" section again without reason.

No body responds to the Talk page.

This seems like a group of people are trying to VANDALISE the wiki page. and removing "HEAVILY REFERENCED" sections which are based on scientific evidence and empirical results.--Harpreet1292 (talk) 06:10, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Welcome to the Page Harpreet1292. looks like the anti Surya Sidhant group is increasing and NO ONE IS RESPONDING HERE. anyhow, I have added a small section in the introductory part about the other later and contemporary texts of Hindu origin just to give a taste.

If you look above this Talk page you will realise that even in the past for almost a decade some people have been vandalising this page with all the nonscientific nonsense. Any how this page needs a lot of work. Many things from Surya Sidhant text can be added to make this page scientific as it is about the book of science - the Surya Sidhant. --Gurnidar (talk) 06:35, 19 July 2020 (UTC)