Talk:Major depressive disorder

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Ideal sources for Wikipedia's health content are defined in the guideline Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) and are typically review articles. Here are links to possibly useful sources of information about Major depressive disorder.

PubMed provides review articles from the past five years (limit to free review articles)
The TRIP database provides clinical publications about evidence-based medicine.
Other potential sources include: Centre for Reviews and Dissemination and CDC

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Depression in childhood and adolescence was copied or moved into Major depressive disorder with this edit on 20:55, July 20, 2022. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Citation 283 is mis-linked

It should be linked to https://doi.org/10.1080/09638239917427 Fairthomas (talk) 14:19, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Dated text removed for improvement

There is not a single modern citation in this text, which should be updated to modern sources if re-incoporated. Most of this dated text is based on sources at least 20 years old; WP:MEDDATE. Debatesdebates? It's also unclear why it belongs in the Terminology section. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:37, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The diagnosis is less common in some countries, such as China. It has been argued that the Chinese traditionally deny or somatize emotional depression (although since the early 1980s, the Chinese denial of depression may have modified).^[1] Alternatively, it may be that Western cultures reframe and elevate some expressions of human distress to disorder status. Australian professor Gordon Parker and others have argued that the Western concept of depression medicalizes sadness or misery.^[2]^[3] Similarly, Hungarian-American psychiatrist Thomas Szasz and others argue that depression is a metaphorical illness that is inappropriately regarded as an actual disease.^[4] There has also been concern that the DSM, as well as the field of descriptive psychiatry that employs it, tends to reify abstract phenomena such as depression, which may in fact be social constructs.^[5] American archetypal psychologist James Hillman writes that depression can be healthy for the soul, insofar as "it brings refuge, limitation, focus, gravity, weight, and humble powerlessness."^[6] Hillman argues that therapeutic attempts to eliminate depression echo the Christian theme of resurrection, but have the unfortunate effect of demonizing a soulful state of being.

Sources

References

^ Parker G, Gladstone G, Chee KT (June 2001). "Depression in the planet's largest ethnic group: the Chinese". The American Journal of Psychiatry. 158 (6): 857–64. doi:10.1176/appi.ajp.158.6.857. PMID 11384889.
^ Parker G (August 2007). "Is depression overdiagnosed? Yes". BMJ. 335 (7615): 328. doi:10.1136/bmj.39268.475799.AD. PMC 1949440. PMID 17703040.
^ Pilgrim D, Bentall R (1999). "The medicalisation of misery: A critical realist analysis of the concept of depression". Journal of Mental Health. 8 (3): 261–74. doi:10.1080/09638239917427.
^ Steibel W (Producer) (1998). "Is depression a disease?". Debatesdebates. Archived from the original on 28 December 2008. Retrieved 16 November 2008.
^ Blazer DG (2005). The age of melancholy: 'Major depression' and its social origins. New York: Routledge. ISBN 978-0-415-95188-3.
^ Hillman J (1989). Moore T (ed.). A blue fire: Selected writings by James Hillman. New York: Harper & Row. pp. 152–53. ISBN 978-0-06-016132-3.

@SandyGeorgia: I originally placed it there as elaborates on idea of definition and meta-aspects. However looking at it now, and given the length of the article and the age of the quotes, I feel the article is better without it - much of these are more pertinent to more general discussion of mood disorders, the reification sentence possibly could stay if I can update it and find discussion making it notable but not fussed really. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:04, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 2 April 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

This article must be flagged as having a geopolitical bias. It needs to be globalized beyond the United States and other English speaking countries or Europe. BennuPedia (talk) 20:34, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lizthegrey (talk) 22:48, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing of Biomedical Content

You removed this: Research has found that unhappily married couples are at 3–25 times the risk of developing clinical depression.^[1]^[2]^[3]

in favor of this: Couples that are unhappily married have up to 25 times the risk of developing clinical depression.^[4]

That doesn't make sense.

You also removed: Should you have experienced four or more adverse childhood experiences, you're 3.2 to 4.0 times more likely to suffer from depression.^[5]

claiming it was referenced elsewhere, and more recently. The description of ACEs in the article does not say 3.2 to 4. And I find your issue about the publication date very vague. Lau737 (talk) 15:47, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Tatiana D. Gray, Matt Hawrilenko, and James V. Cordova (2019). "Randomized Controlled Trial of the Marriage Checkup: Depression Outcomes" (PDF).{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
^ Fink, Brandi C.; Shapiro, Alyson F. (March 2013). "Coping Mediates the Association Between Marital Instability and Depression, but Not Marital Satisfaction and Depression". Couple & family psychology. 2 (1): 1–13. doi:10.1037/a0031763. ISSN 2160-4096. PMC 4096140. PMID 25032063.
^ Maria R. Goldfarb & Gilles Trudel (2019). "Marital quality and depression: a review".
^ Goldfarb MR, Trudel G (May 6, 2019). "Marital quality and depression: a review". Marriage & Family Review. 55 (8). Routledge: Taylor & Francis Group: 737–763. doi:10.1080/01494929.2019.1610136. Citing among others: Weissman MM (April 1987). "Advances in psychiatric epidemiology: rates and risks for major depression". Am J Public Health. 77 (4): 445–51. doi:10.2105/ajph.77.4.445. PMC 1646931. PMID 3826462.
^ Anda RF, Felitti VJ, Bremner JD, Walker JD, Whitfield C, Perry BD, et al. (April 2006). "The enduring effects of abuse and related adverse experiences in childhood. A convergence of evidence from neurobiology and epidemiology". European Archives of Psychiatry and Clinical Neuroscience. 256 (3): 174–186. doi:10.1007/s00406-005-0624-4. PMC 3232061. PMID 16311898.

We discussed these at length on your talk page; once you've processed everything there, we can continue (I'll be away from computer for several hours). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:00, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We assuredly did not bring up ACEs even once. And why you would bring back the "bad" statement after that lengthy discussion about how everything had to be secondary source, with review articles is beyond me. Lau737 (talk) 16:10, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What we've talked about at your user talk is information included in these links:

Information about adverse childhood experiences is already in the article, cited to a newer and higher quality source. The information about unhappy marriages, as we discussed, needs secondary sourcing (it now has that, and is in the article using the citation style of this article).

I don't know what the "bad" statement is. Perhaps WP:ONUS and WP:SS will help; this is a broad overview article that has been community vetted, and we don't need to provide excess detail on well-established items like childhood adversity; such detail can probably find a home in a different article. We don't have to necessarily repeat information across multiple articles, and we don't have to repeat detail in a higher level article that may be covered in a sub-article. In terms of how much detail to include, we are governed by due weight (in this case, of the highest quality recent secondary sources). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:07, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A statement like "four ACEs" increase the risk of depression 3.2 to 4.0 times is relevant to many pages like Major depressive disorder, Family disruption, or Happiness. It's not undue weight. Personally, I find the severity of the increase difficult to spot, even on the Adverse childhood experiences page.

I do not agree with rephrasing all those findings into "an unhappy marriage increases the risk of depression." That's just common sense. People are going to fill in the blank thinking it's +5%, or something, not +200% or +2400% times. It's just a bad way of conveying information

I referred to this edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Major_depressive_disorder&diff=1186959470&oldid=1186959348 in which you changed 3-25 to "up to 25" and pointed the references to Weissman (1987) via Goldfarb after you told me that you thought that the 25 times study was old.

You then proceeded to remove "25 times in its entirety," in an a subsequent edit described as " →‎Environmental: general"

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Major_depressive_disorder&diff=1186984595&oldid=1186959470 Lau737 (talk) 13:45, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lau737 could you please read WP:TALK and WP:THREAD? Following talk page guidelines will make your posts easier for others to work through.

As per our discussion on your talk, I'm still waiting for a secondary source on the 3 to 25 (we have the 25 at Goldfarb), so I generalized the whole thing pending that. If you can provide a secondary source, I agree that expressing a range up to 25 is more useful.

Similar on the childhood adverse events: if you have more than a 15-year-old primary study for the content, "Should you have experienced four or more adverse childhood experiences, you're 3.2 to 4.0 times more likely to suffer from depression" (PMID 16311898), more detail can be added, but depending on due weight in broad overviews of major depression, that content might find a better home at Epigenetics of depression. This is a broad summary article; see WP:ONUS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:33, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The additional sources were already secondary: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Major_depressive_disorder&diff=1186959348&oldid=1186957111

They were presented on my talk page before inclusion. One is from the Journal of Marital and Family Therapy, so peer-reviewed, the other is from Couple and Family Psychology, so peer reviewed.

https://arammu.com/assets/research/MC%20Depression%20Outcomes.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4096140/

I think restricting the information to Epigenetics of depression ignores the psychological importance of adverse childhood experiences.

Lau737 (talk) 16:55, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Could you please see WP:THREAD (I have again threaded for you).

Both of those papers are primary studies. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They are assuredly not. One is Fink et al. (2013) pointing to O-Leary et al. (1994), the other is Gray et al. (2019) which points to Whisman (1999). Lau737 (talk) 10:21, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

PMID 31584721 (Gray) is a randomized controlled trial.
PMID 25032063 (Fink) is a primary study, but the preamble does cite 10 to 25 to O'Leary.

So I wouldn't be averse to using the 10 to 25 times, but I still don't know where we're getting the three. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:17, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes they are primary studies in regard to their own conclusions, but they are secondary sources in regard to the conclusions of O'Leary and Whisman. Whisman concluded three times. Lau737 (talk) 11:25, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extraordinary claim

Please provide a source for this extraordinary claim:

"Major depressive episodes often resolve over time, whether or not they are treated."

It is unsourced and dangerous. Why would people seek help if it resolves over time?

The citation immediately after the claim includes "Since major depression is often a self-limiting disorder that tends to resolve over time...". The claim as-is appears to have existed in the article since at least Feb 2022 so I am hesitant to adjust. Any suggestions are welcome.--Commander Keane (talk) 08:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FA concerns

As part of WP:URFA/2020, this article has been noticed for WP:FAR in 2020 and 2022. Circling back onto it now, I see that the article has an "update needed" orange banner at the top of the page. Is anyone actively maintaining this article, and able to address this banner? If not, should this go to WP:FAR? Z1720 (talk) 02:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Parker G, Gladstone G, Chee KT (June 2001). "Depression in the planet's largest ethnic group: the Chinese". The American Journal of Psychiatry. 158 (6): 857–64. doi:10.1176/appi.ajp.158.6.857. PMID 11384889.

[2] Parker G (August 2007). "Is depression overdiagnosed? Yes". BMJ. 335 (7615): 328. doi:10.1136/bmj.39268.475799.AD. PMC 1949440. PMID 17703040.

[3] Pilgrim D, Bentall R (1999). "The medicalisation of misery: A critical realist analysis of the concept of depression". Journal of Mental Health. 8 (3): 261–74. doi:10.1080/09638239917427.

[4] Steibel W (Producer) (1998). "Is depression a disease?". Debatesdebates. Archived from the original on 28 December 2008. Retrieved 16 November 2008.

[5] Blazer DG (2005). The age of melancholy: 'Major depression' and its social origins. New York: Routledge. ISBN 978-0-415-95188-3.

[6] Hillman J (1989). Moore T (ed.). A blue fire: Selected writings by James Hillman. New York: Harper & Row. pp. 152–53. ISBN 978-0-06-016132-3.

[7] Tatiana D. Gray, Matt Hawrilenko, and James V. Cordova (2019). "Randomized Controlled Trial of the Marriage Checkup: Depression Outcomes" (PDF).{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

[8] Fink, Brandi C.; Shapiro, Alyson F. (March 2013). "Coping Mediates the Association Between Marital Instability and Depression, but Not Marital Satisfaction and Depression". Couple & family psychology. 2 (1): 1–13. doi:10.1037/a0031763. ISSN 2160-4096. PMC 4096140. PMID 25032063.

[9] Maria R. Goldfarb & Gilles Trudel (2019). "Marital quality and depression: a review".

[10] Goldfarb MR, Trudel G (May 6, 2019). "Marital quality and depression: a review". Marriage & Family Review. 55 (8). Routledge: Taylor & Francis Group: 737–763. doi:10.1080/01494929.2019.1610136. Citing among others: Weissman MM (April 1987). "Advances in psychiatric epidemiology: rates and risks for major depression". Am J Public Health. 77 (4): 445–51. doi:10.2105/ajph.77.4.445. PMC 1646931. PMID 3826462.

[Anda20062-11] Anda RF, Felitti VJ, Bremner JD, Walker JD, Whitfield C, Perry BD, et al. (April 2006). "The enduring effects of abuse and related adverse experiences in childhood. A convergence of evidence from neurobiology and epidemiology". European Archives of Psychiatry and Clinical Neuroscience. 256 (3): 174–186. doi:10.1007/s00406-005-0624-4. PMC 3232061. PMID 16311898.

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