Jump to content

Talk:Native American gaming

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The printable version is no longer supported and may have rendering errors. Please update your browser bookmarks and please use the default browser print function instead.

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 August 2020 and 16 October 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): JulesWatters, Lush84. Peer reviewers: Sleepmags1, Jakefriend9.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 04:58, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Opening comment

Why didn't we just assist the tribes with housing and education, as opposed to allowing them and others to turn our communities into gambling dens that breed crime, financial ruin, and child neglect? This was a no-brainer, but we are unfortunately governed by politicians such as California Senator Barbara Boxer, who voted to allow the building of such a casino on open space in Sonoma County, simply because her son had a financial interest in it.

Why is reservation shopping considered Political POV? It is currently being investigated by Congress with pending legislation to stop the practice.

The pending legislation would amend the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act to prevent non-indigenous tribes from locating casinos outside of their established lands. Further, it would bar newly recognized tribes from taking new lands into trust for the purpose of establishing gaming operations. If you are going to discuss other problems with Indian Gaming it is fair and appropriate to discuss reservation shopping as a national problem.

"devoted to exposing the economic myths of Indian Gaming"; and political rhetoric in links is not the business of the encyclopedia. The topic of "reservation shopping" certainly could be addressed, but please leave you POV at the door. 2005 07:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding "reservation shopping", could we get a source for this comment? Additionally, the national expansion of Indian Gaming has led to a practice critics call reservation shopping.[18] This term describes tribes that, with the backing of casino investors, attempt to locate a casino out of their indigenous homeland, usually near a large urban center. However, although authorized by the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act, only three such "off-reservation" casinos have been built to date. The source cited is nothing more than an article form a local paper in CA discussing ideas for casinos that have been "floated". Where are these 3 off-reservation casinos? Heck, we have three in Tulsa, OK, right here in the city, and none are on Indian "reservations". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.185.216.18 (talk) 12:35, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just say Indian

Bill Merchant, noted Indian broadcaster used to say, "Just say Indian. It reminds us that Columbus was wrong about a lot of things, and that there's no going back."

And just say Indian casino. "Native American Gaming Enterprises" is PC Gone Wild. Do a search for Indian & casino, and you'll get many results from gambling tribes that refer to their operations as Indian casinos.

Las Vegas moneymen are fueling Indian casinos, which are increasingly moving into towns and cities.

While I get the gist of this argument, Wikipedia basically can't (and shouldn't) do anything but the "politically correct" terminology, because that's closest to NPOV. There's no need to keep reminding ourselves that Columbus got the "Indian" label wrong. The word is still used plenty throughout the article whenever it references US law, which still says "Indian" more often than not. And just because a phrase gets more google hits doesn't mean it's encyclopedic—often the opposite, really. (I imagine there are more hits for the slang shortening "porn" than "pornography", for example). But yeah, that's certainly a good point about the Vegas funding, let's see where that enters with some backed-up research... —Lenoxus 22:19, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
PS: Just out of curiosity... exactly what amount of PC is acceptable before it has "Gone Wild"?
Actually, I believe "technically correct" is more NPOV than "politically correct", given that politically correct favors a particular ideology, and hence, a point of view. Also, politically correct has gone too far when we cease to call things what they are, as in refusing to say the word "casino" and instead using the term "gaming enterprise." Native American makes sense; gaming enterprise does not. I'm going to nominate that this article have its name changed as per the non-neutral but common names rule. Chris3145 (talk) 02:22, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

wording change

I got to this article by redirect from an "indian gaming" link here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocopah

As you can see the proper name of this article is "native american gambling" not "indian gambling". The article should be altered to reflect this, with every instance of "indiam gambling" in it changed to "native american gambling". Bubuntu 21:59, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Scope of article

It seems to me that this is a bit focused on gaming and its possible exploits and crimes. I'm curious if others think this scope is too narrow and borders on being aneutral for being too negative. Austin 19:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. For some tribes, gambling enterprises have provided a much-needed source of public funding. Although they can only be considered temporary or stopgap forms of economic development for reservation communities, there have been many beneficial outcomes, including funding the education of thousands of children nationwide from preschool through postgraduate. There are many problems as well, but I don't think they outweigh the benefits. --Node 05:11, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Indian Gaming

Hello I am a student at UNC Chapel Hill and I will be editing and doing research on Indian Gaming and specifically the court cases that led up to IGRA and the first Class 1 and Class 2 lotteries and bingos on an Indian reservation.Kumar.2d (talk) 19:32, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I am also a student at The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and I will be editing and doing research on Indian gaming. Specifically, I will be researching recent economic contributions of tribal gambling enterprises. Thank you very much.--Brian Teague (talk) 20:43, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Both of you stop using this page for a class project. Any such inapproriate additions will be immediately removed. You are just being a nuisance. If you want to contribute to the Wikipedia, please read this and follow the various guidelines of the encyclopedia. This is not a class project "under construction". 2005 (talk) 00:06, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We are using credible sources such as the reference I listed: Charles Wilkinson's Blood Struggle: The Rise of Modern Indian Nations. It is a class project now since someone has failed to mention any history behind the Indian gaming industry. It didn't just pop out of nowhere.--Kumar.2d (talk) 01:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Welcome to Wikipedia, Bteague1 and Kumar.2d. Please keep in mind that there may well be reversions or changes to your contributions, that's what Wikipedia is all about. In any case, your contributions to any article are welcome. Here are few resources you might want to check out Wikipedia:School and university projects and Wikipedia:FAQ/Schools.
If you need any help with citing your sources or markup or whatever, please drop me a line on my user page. babbage (talk) 06:38, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup

I've begun cleanup of this article - it really needs it. More to follow... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bg860d (talk • contribs) 07:55, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the following:

The NCAA has backed the casino, and other coastal communities further away support the Chumash efforts as well.

...which only had this as a citation: ref name="Law, Politics 2004" . For starters, that's not a citation. Furthermore, having worked for the NCAA, I can say with certainty that they never "support" any casino in any sense of the term. And stating that "other coastal communities blah blah blah" weighs heavily of OR. So, yeah, out it went. 98.232.51.88 (talk) 02:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 1

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:36, 23 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Native American gaming enterprises → Indian casinos—If a particular name is commonly used, it overrides the neutrality rule. See Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Naming and Wikipedia:Article_titles#Non-neutral_but_common_names. Chris3145 (talk) 02:31, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Indian is confusing with India. "Casinos" is definitely not right because some of what is being dealt with is not casinos (a bingo hall is not a casino). "Native American gaming" (dropping the unnatural "enterprises") is the correct move if only because that is in fact what the subject of the article is normally called in the real world. Alternately, instead of "Indian casinos" it could be called "Indian gaming". 2005 (talk) 07:13, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Further notes about naming on Wikipedia, from Wikipedia:Article_titles: "Article titles are often proper nouns, such as the subject's name. Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it instead uses the name which is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article. Article titles should be neither vulgar nor pedantic. The term most typically used in reliable sources is preferred to technically correct but rarer forms, whether the official name, the scientific name, the birth name, the original name or the trademarked name. Other encyclopedias may be helpful in deciding what titles are in an encyclopedic register as well as what name is most frequently used (see below)."

Duly noted about "casino" being lowercase. I do not refer to the race/culture/people as being Indian; I call them Native American. However, "Indian casino" is the term that people use when referring to "Native American gaming enterprises." At the very least, the "gaming enterprises" part needs to go. Chris3145 (talk) 03:19, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
While it's true "Indaian casinos" is used sometimes, "Native American gaming" and "tribal casinos" are more the norm now. Again though, casinos is just plain innacurate for the article title. Casinos are a subset of gaming. The two choices should be either "Native American gaming" or "Indian gaming". The latter would normally be the correct Wiki way as the governement has a "National Indian Gaming Commission" and a "Indian Gaming Regulatory Act", so normally following established usage would be the way to go, but the rest of the Wikipedia uses "Native American", so "Native American gaming" is the most logical choice. 2005 (talk) 07:28, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Notes on frequencies of term usage

I still disagree with the title of this article being "Native American gaming enterprises". Almost any feasible change to the article title would be an improvement. I took the advice given here about using a search engine to see what terms are commonly used. I searched with each phrase in quotes, and excluded results that included the word "Wikipedia".

search term / number of results
"indian casino" -wikipedia / 3,960,000 results
"native american casino" -wikipedia / 440,000 results
"tribal casino" -wikipedia / 395,000 results
"native american gaming" -wikipedia / 62,500 results
"native american gaming enterprise" -wikipedia / 9 results

The current title yields 9 hits. "Indian casino" is by far the most popular term, with about 9 times as many hits as the second place contender of "native american casino."

"Indian casino" is the norm by far. "Native American gaming enterprise" is clearly a term that isn't used by anybody. (Okay, slight exaggeration, but compare 9 hits to about 4 million.) While "Native American" is more correct than "Indian", "Indian" is the word that gets used in conjunction with "casino". I also refuse to accept the notion that "gaming enterprise" is more correct than "casino" because casinos or only a subset of gaming enterprises. What kind other kind of gaming enterprises do Native Americans run?

Any feasible title would be better than the current one, but there is a correct choice here that I feel is pretty clear. Flying squirrels and flying fish don't actually fly, but that's what people call them, so that's what their article titles are on Wikipedia. Chris3145 (talk) 07:14, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Part of this was answered above. This article is not about "casinos". The article can't be renamed "casinos" any more than the "bingo" article can be renamed "casino". Besides bingo, another native american gaming type are lotteries. Then there are pulls tabs. These are not "casinos". On the other hand, the above stats show the "enterprises" part is silly, so I'm going to boldly redirect this to Native American gaming, which is the point. If someone wants to revert and discuss this further, fine, but at this point there is no defense of "enterprises" so let's just get rid of that. 2005 (talk) 07:42, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's interesting such conflict over "Indian Gaming", which it is, In law, federal, state and tribal. The word is "Indian".
Also the information that seems to be missing is the fact that "28 States" each receive millions of dollars (up to $400 million) "every year" through "Indian gaming compacts". I'm not sure why that information is always left out when discussing Indian gaming.
FYI - CONNECTICUT (June 2010)- $169,408,149 (Foxwood) $189,845,097 (Mohegan) = $359.253.246
http://www.ct.gov/dosr/cwp/view.asp?a=3&q=290840&dosrNav=%7C - Niineta (talk) 00:27, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the move, 2005. I admit I didn't notice the bits about lottos and bingo when I skimmed the article. Chris3145 (talk) 05:33, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Entertainment

Might this article benefit from a section on the entertainment these establishments offer? They seem to have provided venues for the stars and groups of yesteryear, which strikes me as a bit of a phenomenon. LorenzoB (talk) 19:40, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why?

This article doesn't explain why Native Americans operate gambling establishments rather than, say, movie theaters or amusement parks. Why is it that Indian casinos are more famous? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.163.222.67 (talk) 04:15, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved Mike Cline (talk) 13:08, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Native American gaming → Indian gaming – "Indian gaming" is by far the dominant term used by the industry (see the National Indian Gaming Association), government (see National Indian Gaming Commission), the press, and academia. Searching for "indian gaming is", "tribal gaming is", and "native american gaming is" (with the extra "is" to avoid counting hits for the aforementioned NIGC and NIGA), "Indian" typically outnumbers "tribal" by a factor of 4, and outnumbers "Native American" by factors ranging from 20 to 20,000. (Searches included Google, Google News Archives, Google Books, Google Scholar, NewsBank, and HighBeam). The current title is nothing but a POV euphemism. Some commenters in the previous RM argued that "Indian gaming" is ambiguous. That may be true in some parallel universe where India has a thriving video game industry, but it is not true in this universe. Out of the first 100 Google results, 100 are about Native American casinos. Toohool (talk) 02:10, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

India Today Volume 33 2008 "While the opportunities in gaming industry are manifold, one cannot deny that the Indian gaming industry is still in its nascent stages."
India Today Volume 7 "This is the golden era of Indian gaming. An industry that would, sitting in India, create games for overseas clients with mostly American characters is now giving way to Indian-themed pc or Internet games." In ictu oculi (talk) 05:19, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Indian gaming should perhaps disamb to Native American gaming and Gambling in India? In ictu oculi (talk) 05:46, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds good to me. (though this particular article still doesn't treat Native American gaming outside the U.S. , such as in Canada). 70.24.251.208 (talk) 06:19, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Disambig pages are used when there is not a clear primary topic, which is not the case here. This case can be handled by a hatnote, which I've added to the article. Toohool (talk) 18:46, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Canada

This article ostensibly covers "Native American gaming" or "Indian gaming", but it only focuses on the US. There are such issues in Canada, so this is highly biased, or the article is badly named. 70.24.251.208 (talk) 06:08, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know much about tribal gaming in Canada, but I suspect it might fit better into a Gambling in Canada article. There's very little to be said about one that applies to the other. The judicial and legislative history, the regulatory framework, the timeline of development, of Indian gaming in the U.S. has basically no overlap with Canada, as far as I know. Studies and articles about Indian gaming in the U.S. do not generally even mention Canada. Are there many sources that consider the two together as a unified topic? Toohool (talk) 22:45, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The title of the article does not state that it only covers the U.S., so if we don't treat both topics, then it needs to be renamed to something that indicates it is U.S.-only. An overview article at the current name with summaries of the situation in both countries could live at the simple name.
The issues in the U.S. and Canada are different, due to different laws concerning Amerindians, so studies dealing with one country are not completely applicable to the other.
But the Amerindian Reserves in Canada, being in theory sovereign, some have set up gambling ventures, which clash with provincial and federal laws and agencies, and they are an issue in Canada.
70.24.251.208 (talk) 06:17, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the IP that the article's scope and/or name needs to be changed to deal with Indian casinos outside of the U.S. (i.e. in Canada), of which no mention is currently made. If the two topics can be dealt with together in the same article, so be it. If a separate article needs to be created ("SOMETITLE in Canada"), then this article should be renamed to "SOMETITLE in the United States". I♦A 08:50, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

User:Hot Stop: the whole point of the cleanup-template system is to draw attention to issues within the article, which are then discussed on the talk page. The insertion of such a template is not an "editorial decision", and you're skating pretty close to violating WP:3RR. I♦A 15:33, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
User Hot Stop violated WP:3RR about 10 minutes after you posted that message. I placed a warning on his/her talk page. A subsequent revert would garner a posting to WP:AN3. 70.24.251.208 (talk) 21:15, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hot Stop characterized being warned of a 3RR violation as "trolling" so I suspect he does not appreciate what a 3RR violation means. 70.24.251.208 (talk) 04:13, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It makes no sense to create a content fork on a relatively short article, I say someone who cares get off the dime and add it. No need to waste a lot of bandwidth on this. SImple. Montanabw(talk) 16:54, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This article's scope is Native American gaming in the United States, since the political situations and laws are unique to the United States. Perhaps a step before creating a separate Gaming among Aboriginal peoples in Canada article, someone with knowledge of aboriginal gaming in Canada could add a section about it in the Aboriginal peoples in Canada article? -Uyvsdi (talk) 17:26, 11 June 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi[reply]
Well seeing as the article is called "Native American gaming" I would not expect to see anything about gambling in Canada. For the equivalent in Canada I would expect an article titled First Nations gaming. By the way, gaming is not that great as I wondered if it would be about traditional games or gambling. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 23:00, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Except that "Native American", "Amerind", "Amerindian", "Indian", "First Nations", "Aboriginal peoples", etc are all used in Canada. The government department in charge is Indian Affairs (Northern and Indian Affairs) ; Just as in the U.S. "Indian", "Native American", "Amerindian", "Amerind", etc are also al used. 70.24.251.208 (talk) 04:54, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You might wish to peruse Native American name controversy and its discussion page, if you haven't done so already. If someone wanted to make this article title more explicit, I'd be fine with a move to Native American gaming in the United States. -Uyvsdi (talk) 05:44, 12 June 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi[reply]
Objections are lodged on its use, meaning that it is used in those areas. "American Indian" is also objected to, but it is used in both countries. Native American gaming in the United States is fine by me. 70.24.251.208 (talk) 05:53, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's silly to do a US rename when the real problem is that someone who knows the topic needs to get off their duff and just add stuff on Canada. But given that this person will not be me, carry on... Montanabw(talk) 18:25, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that Native American, Amerind and Amerindian are used much in Canada. By the way although the legal name is Indian Affairs it is more commonly known as Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada (Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada). I really don't see this as a naming problem. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 19:27, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have never heard a real human being actually say "Amerind" or "Amerindian" in the USA, either, actually (outside of academe and Science Fiction, anyway). "American Indian" was kosher until sometime in the 1970s (think American Indian Movement, for example) when "Native American" became considered the more PC term within academe used to avoid confusion with Asian Indians. The folks I know who self-identify as Native or have tribal enrollment tend to say "Indian". "Native" (capitalized - lower case can be viewed as condescending), "Native people," or use their tribal nation to describe themselves. People from different tribes - and even within some tribes - do not seem to agree over whether "Indian" is offensive or not, I've heard some folks be quite offended by it, and yet others (from the same tribe, no less) say things like, "how come you don't just call us Indians? 'Native American' just sounds stupid." Where I live (state bordering Canada), I hear "First Nations" a lot when people are discussing Canadian tribes, but Uyvsdi is correct that "Indian" is also used, for example, Alkali Lake Indian Band. When in doubt, I append "people" to whatever term is used, and that tends to at least soften it a bit if I misstepped and hit a minefield with someone. Montanabw(talk) 16:35, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Native American gaming. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 14:13, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

First Nations Gambling?

As far as I know, there is no article for First Nations casinos (in general). I'm not sure if they warrant a standalone article. Should they be incorporated into this article somehow? The Verified Cactus 100% 14:12, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think First Nations gaming is part of the same topic. It has a totally different history and legal basis. Reliable sources do not discuss them together as a single topic, as far as I've seen. I think it could best be covered as a section in a Gambling in Canada article (and eventually spun out if it grows large enough to warrant its own article). Toohool (talk) 18:04, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Indian gaming" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Indian gaming. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 September 4#Indian gaming until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. MB 19:23, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Native_American_gaming&oldid=1223151053"