User_talk:Tannin/030301, User_talk:Tannin/030407, User_talk:Tannin/030430, User_talk:Tannin/030516, User_talk:Tannin/030606
Tannin never sleeps ...
OK, I give up. What's a bivine? -- John Owens 05:05 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)
- A holy cow? Koyaanis Qatsi
- So why don't we have an article at bivine or bivines yet? ;) Get back to work! -- John Owens 08:16 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)
- Funny stuff. :-) Koyaanis Qatsi
Hi Tannin. A recurring problem has cropped up again. You may remember some months ago a user called Scipius tried to screw up the Republic of Ireland page. He wanted to call it simply Ireland even though the page is only on the RofI, and everyone else told him it should be called the Rep of Irl. He tried to change facts and got into a major row with his pre-occupation with changing things to his own highly inaccurate understanding of Irish history, culture, politics, etc.
Now he is back again and trying to rewrite the agreed template on the RofI page; one of his recurring insistences for example, is in suggesting that the Irish and english languages have equality of status, by removing a simple reference to the Irish language being defined as the national language and english as a (not the) secondary language. On past evidence, he will simply keep reverting the page again and again and again, ignoring any past consensus reached until it people can get it clear to him that he is not getting his way. So it would be a great help if you could keep an eye on the page and tell him that the page as it is (I reverted his changes) is factually accurate and his 'version' is factually inaccurate and simplistic. lol FearÉIREANN 03:02 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)
hi Tony
HBW lists Morepork and Southern Boobook as separate species (see typical owl, based on HBW. Any views? Jim
I thought you might have phased, you're more exposed to the flak than me, with mostly birds and a few cetaceans. I don't know if you caught the fascinating email from JT, so I'll put the text below;
In a message dated 11/06/03 18:10:17 GMT Daylight Time, jtdirl@hotmail.com writes:
I had an interesting conversation today with a publisher and an academic on the issue of capitalisation. They made the following observations:
1. Capitalisation rules seem to differ between American English and British English (or rather American English and all forms of english other than AE). Whereas the former seems nowadays to be following a 'minimal use of caps' policy, non-AE english uses caps far more often.
2. This issue has caused considerable problems with American students who come to Europe for summer courses. Europeans see the non-use of caps as 'semi-literate' and regularly dock students marks for it. Americans see non AE use of caps as 'ludicrous' and over the top. (I know from personal experience that the few caps english of AE users has caused bitter anger in my university, where lecturers 'hit the roof' at AE users' insistence of lower-casing names of organisations, electoral processes, governmental offices, etc.)
3. Within many academic areas, a major battle has been waged on this issue. To the resentment of non-AE users, AE capitalisation rules increasingly tend to be followed. The reason is purely economic. Publishers see the US as their biggest market, and so publish books in AE or in non-AE but following some of the characteristics of AE in areas like capitalisation. (This has infuriated many non AE-using authors. Last week, one British English author threatened to sue her publisher for 'rewriting' her textbook in AE when it was aimed at a UK market. She accused them of 'dumbing down english to suit Americans'. Some authors, according to the publisher I was talking to, have insisted in their contracts that their books /not/ be rewritten in AE, even when an edition is launched in the US. (American authors may well equally have insisted that their books not be turned into non-AE. As the publisher I was speaking to is British she has no knowledge of such contracts if they exist in the US).
If this is the case (and both the publisher and academic said so, while both expressing their dislike of AE capitalisation trends and what the latter called the 'wholescale manging of non-AE to suit publishers' profits by trampling over the language use of everyone who isn't American') that does explain the rows over capitalisation on wiki, and how it is AE users like Ec, Mav and Zoe who are so 'anti' capitalisation while it is users of other forms of english other than AE (Tannin, myself, etc) who want it. For if Mav, Ec etc were taught one set of rules on capitalisation usage, we were taught a different one and are infuriated by what, going by what we were taught, seems to be wiki's insistence on wrong use of capitals and non-use of capitals where they should be used.
In the circumstances, we should apply to the same policy as we apply in general to American english versus British english, ie, respect difference and allow users to set the policy in an individual article, based on /their/ usage of capitals in /their/ version of english. As most of the capitals issue involves AE users changing capitalisation applied by non AE users like Tannin in articles the non AE users have written (like on birds), it suggests that that process should stop and the rules on capitalisation should be amended accordingly. The issue is already causing enough rows outside wiki, with the increasing application of AE rules by publishing houses and style books causing major anger (the publisher said one author called it 'American linguistic imperialism', with AE rules being applied even though they conflict with all the grammar books used outside the US.) The best solution is not to enforce AE capitalisation rules but simply to recognise that different english users worldwide use different rules on this issue and to leave it to users, depending on their linguistic culture, to decide on capitalisation just as they decide on spelling in American English, British English or the various subsets of the latter (Hiberno English, Australian English, etc.)
JT
It looks as if there is a genuine cultural aspect, which explains the "US (less KT) v the rest of the World" lineup. I've given up (nearly) wasting time on emails, other than to highlight the above.
If the American style eventually prevails throughout, at least they'll have fun sorting out Wood Warbler/wood warbler and barn owl/Barn Owl, not to mention the interminable lists of doves, hummingbirds and typical owls, some of which of course need to be partially capitalised in the text anyway.
Hope to see you back soon, and good luck with the digiscoping,
Jim
- For the third time Jim - will you stop it with the straw man arguments?. Bird capitalization is now the Wikipedia standard. What is at issue is if this makes sense elsewhere. --mav
There was really no article on tapirs? Well, thanks for putting one up! I love tapirs... they're neat. --Dante Alighieri 11:17 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Good to see you back. An impressive list of equipment, and I'll look forward to seeing the results. Pity you don't get many European species there, I might have to make the effort to take my own pics. My daughter and her boyfriend are in Oz with a campervan now, heading for some surfers' paradise on the east coast. She said how cold it was after Thailand, only 24C(!), but I can't believe it snows in Oz.
I'm still plugging away at the birds, apart from partly rewriting crocodile and doing species list for that and alligator.
jimfbleak 15:12 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I was in a spin-a-coin position between the Swarovski and the Leica, so I know how good they are. Even at dusk, the light gathering is pretty impressive. I've finally done European Starling. I know this is a favourite of yours, so if you want to put the boot in, be my guest. I'll have to sign off soon to go to Shropshire (work, not birding, unfortunately. jimfbleak 09:57 20 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Hi from Adrian. I've added three disambiguations to GoldenEye but haven't been following the big debate on Capital Letters for Bird Names. How should I do the three goldeneye duck names (or should they even be there?)? This question arose from my trip today to The Slimbridge Wildfowl and Wetlands Centre near Bristol (UK) where I live. I took loads of duck pics (including a Barrow's goldeneye (Goldeneye?!) and am now having fun identifying them all. Thanks
Adrian Pingstone 21:34 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I replied to Adrian. For info, Big Iron, a Canadian, is churning out lots of N. Am Duck articles currently. jimfbleak 06:06 23 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I didn't even realise there was more than one species of lemming, let alone several genera! They must drown before the get to the UK. I've taking to stalking Big Iron as well, since I've actually seen most of his species, except Cinnamon Teal. jimfbleak 13:29 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)
- mammal definitely a mess, but I don't real know the taxonomy of this class. Btw, in the UK at least Swarovski are increasing their prices by 5% from 1st July (or July 1 or...) jimfbleak 15:07 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Tannin, please make downstyle redirects to up-style bird names as per our compromise on this issue. I just made one for Red-rumped parrot. --mav
Hi Tannin,
AAAAGH! I am so fed up with wiki right now! Michael Hardy pissed me off by lowercasing a political science formula that is correctly uppercased and changing the formula. (Only the latest in the long list of political science articlse he has screwed up!) Now there are people who never heard of the thing before I wrote an article on it debating whether it should be in upper case or lower case, whether the formula should have brackets or not have brackets, whether it should be called the Droop Quota (its name) or Droop formula. Jesus, I've taught the fucking thing for eight years but suddenly a group of people who don't know the first thing about it except what they can find on google searches (which as you know more often than not throw up garbage) have set themselves up as experts on the topic. Between that and some anonymous idiot continuously POVing an article on Eamon de Valera, Eloquence trying to rig the election to make sure mm/dd/yy wins, Michael running riot, people allowing Adam and DW to get back on and play their games I am SO UTTERLY FED UP OF WIKIPEDIA. I know exactly how you felt when people who didn't know what they were talking about screwed up your work. It was only the presence of serious people like Deb, John, Mav and yourself that kept me wanting to stay attached to wiki but I am on the brink of quitting for good. I really don't need to put up with this nonsense every day. I am so fed up putting so much time and effort, not to mention all my considerable knowledge, into the thing, only to find your work constantly being screwed up by people who don't have a clue about the topic but still inist on screwing around articles. I really am so fed up of it all. If they muck up the Droop Quota article I will simply walk away. There are a lot better things I could be doing with my life than putting up with this garbage.
OK. Frustration over. I'll crawl off to bed and maybe, just maybe, I might come back to wiki. Bye. FearÉIREANN 01:55 25 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Thanks for dropping by. I'm still learning wiki but I noticed that some of my favourite ducks needed attention. Sorry if any North American, pronounced "Canuck", bias slips in. Big Iron
Thanks for your image code in Organ Pipes National Park - it does look better :-) If you're interested in the subject, have a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Protected Areas. D.D. 16:18 25 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I seem to have lumbered you with the porcupines. I started to update one of the ancient 1911 articles, but found it surprising difficult even to find the names of all but the N Am and European species. At least I found a photo! jimfbleak 16:31 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Tony, can you take a look at Finch. I've taken the second pic out once, but it's been put back in. I'm not asking you to join in what might become an edit war, just advice as to whether I'm being unreasonable. Btw, later today, I'll be off-line for a fair while - the builders are coming in at the weekend to replaster my work room - not my idea. jimfbleak 09:07 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Tony, thank you for providing a better explination of your motivation for not wanting my illustration on the finch page than anyone else. I would like some clairification as to why it is "inappropriate in that entry." If you have jumped to the conclusion that it is a "parody" or "cartoon" like User:Jimfbleak then I please ask that you reconsider your stance. I assure you that it is not meant to me either. It is an illustration that I spent considerable amount of time on, and put it in the article, b/c I found it completely appropriate. So please, clairfy your stance. Thanks. MB 14:41 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)
And for just a second, I thought the bird had its beak pierced.... Koyaanis Qatsi
That is one scary looking duck -- sannse 15:58 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Just gone midday here, Tony. Yes, I was very impressed by the Hardhead. It's just me letting the side dowm with photos now... and it's raining.
Having had a bit of a spree on species accounts, I knocked out basic family articles for barbet, babbler and parrotbill earlier, the motivations being
- I want to write up Bearded Tit, and
- We have just booked a fortnight in Sri Lanka for Feb, so I'm inspired to write a couple of tropical accounts.
Please play with Stork, incidently White Stork now has a proper photo, courtesy of Danish wiki.
I've got to go shopping now. Drat.
jimfbleak 11:20 30 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Re Common Starling. Most links are to Common anyway, so that's fine with me, I'm in the middle of sorting out the quails, partridges and pheasants, so can I leave that to you? jimfbleak 11:35 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I did a lot of work yesterday trying to get some coherence from Galliformes and the families therein. Have a look and play with the layout if you like. I didn't do any thing to megapode because that group is already basically taxonomically sorted, but I wondered if you wanted to say something about the relationships to the other families? I incidentally discovered the taxobox for Plains Wandered, which I'd obviously started and forgotten, so I'd better finish it sometime. jimfbleak 06:50 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)