Peterborough is not in any county. When a unitary authority is created, the county borders are adjusted to exclude it. ( 19:30, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
- That is correct, although it's worth mentioning that hardly anyone now takes much notice of the official boundaries (postal addresses, sports teams, and many maps use older borders). Enchanter 19:32, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree that this is worth mentioning, as well as the historical situations. ( 19:34, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Enchanter is correct. It should be noted that the Boundary Commission consider the Peterborough unitary authority to be part of the Cambridgeshire region for their internal administrative purposes. -- The Anome 19:41, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
See also http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1996/Uksi_19961878_en_1.htm, particularly the 2nd page:
Constitution of new county of Peterborough
3.—(1) Peterborough shall cease to form part of Cambridgeshire.
(2) A new county shall be constituted comprising the area of Peterborough and shall be named the county of Peterborough.
(3) Section 2(1) of the 1972 Act (which provides that every county shall have a council) shall not apply in relation to the county of Peterborough.
So it appears to have been part of Cambridgeshire. I'm not sure how geographical county is defined (someone was suggesting it was in the geographical county of Northamptonshire) ( 19:52, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
- Officially, Peterborough is not in any 'administrative' county. Peterborough has always been in the 'geographical' county of northaptonshire. When the boundary chances took place, the geographical county ceased to be the same as the administrative county (since P was administered as by Cambs). This did NOT mean P suddenly jumped out of Northants, or the Northants suddenly strunk. Government administration doesn't change geography.
If the French invaded the UK and took control of this country, renaming it "greater france", the area of Kent would suddenly cease to exist, because Kent is defined geographically, not politically. Whether or not sections of the border regions are administered by the local government authority called "surrey county council", those regions that lie within Kent are still part of Kent.
Council names such as "surrey county council", etc. are throw backs from the pre-local government boundary change days, where county councils actually did govern counties. The fact that "surrey" and "county" still appear in the name of this authority is irrelevent, and any argument attempting to use this fact is grasping with semantic straws.
Unless someone can logically counter this statement of fact (and I'd like to see them try) I strongly suggest that my original edit is replaced - this emphasized the differences between the former administritive "county", and the unchanging geographical county.
Regarding the http://www.hmso.gov.uk link - that is a notice of boundary changes to the 'administrative' area name - in this case the administrative county of cambridgeshire. As I have already explained, the original boundary changes meant that administrative "counties" became independent of geographical counties. Thus, the "boundaries" refered to in "The Cambridgeshire (City of Peterborough) (Structural, Boundary and Electoral Changes) Order 1996" is administrative only.
- Is "geographical" county the same as traditional county? I have a suspicion that this concept is simply the administrative counties of an earlier era. However I wouldn't rule out the possibility that counties can be defined in a meaningful geographic way, e.g., following river boundaries etc., if there was widespread agreement on how they were defined. ( 20:06, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
- The Wikipedia article you mention actually states:
"traditional counties" (also known as the "geographic counties")
To say they are "administrative counties of an earlier era" is rather like describing England as "part of the roman empire at a later date"! The concept of "administrative counties" has been around for 30 or so years, whereas geographical county boundaries have been scarecly changed in hundreds; some date back more than a millenium. At the time of the "boundary change" the government could have expressly stated that geographical counties boundaries as they were then were to be superceeded by the new administrative 'counties. However, it didn't - quite the reverse, in fact.
On the 1st April 1974, upon implementation of the LGA 1972, a Government statement said: "The new county boundaries are solely for the purpose of defining areas of ... local government. They are administrative areas, and will not alter the traditional boundaries of Counties, nor is it intended that the loyalties of people living in them will change."
'NOTE "They are administrative areas, and will not alter the traditional boundaries of Counties" '
I suggest you read a very good explanation of the matter at http://www.abcounties.co.uk/counties/confusion.htm
80.225.etc
- Some administrative history: http://www.peterborough.gov.uk/subsites/libraries/libraryguides/guide.shtml. It seems reasonable to describe peterborough as part of the "traditional county of Northamptonshire" as well as listing the administrative changes. (
- I also think this passage has huge relevance:
- '"Whilst the Counties are no longer used directly as the basis for any major form of public administration they do, of course, remain significant cultural and geographical entities. They are also the ultimate source of definition for the boundaries of many modern local government areas. For example, the LGA 1972's "county" of "Norfolk" is defined in terms of the boundaries of the LGA 1888's "administrative county" of "Norfolk" which was defined in terms of the historic County of Norfolk. The boundaries of Norfolk are not set out in any Statute. Yet they exist and can be determined to high accuracy. If they didn't and/or couldn't then the modern local government area's boundaries could not be defined. "'
- RE: "It seems reasonable to describe peterborough as part of the "traditional county of Northamptonshire" as well as listing the administrative changes." This is what I effectively initially did. However, to revert it to that would require "The Anome" to eat his words and stop throwing his admin weight around...
For the record... My edit was:
Peterborough is a unitary authority and city in the east of England. It was founded by the Romans in 43 AD and is geographically in the county of Northamptonshire, although included within the local government administritive area of Cambridgeshire
What the Anome wrote, after he edited my correct information out, was:
... was traditionally in the county of Cambridgeshire ...
which I hope you would agree is plain wrong.
And yet he had the arrogance to exclaim:
OK, I'm finding dealing with this user tedious. The Peterborough/Cambidgeshire edits are particularly silly -- a moment's research shows his edits are wrong
which is complete fiction of the worst kind.
RE: " It lies in the geographical county of Cambridgeshire but in the historic counties of Northamptonshire, Cambridgeshire, and Huntingdonshire."
It doesn't lie in the "geographical county of Cambridgeshire" - the wikipedia article on "Traditional counties" states that "geographic" and "traditional" counties are synonymous. Look at it yourself!
Administratively, P doesn't lie in any "county". The ONLY county it is in, TODAY, is Northamptonshire.
- There are three kinds of counties - administrative, geographic, and historic. Administratively, Peterborough is a unitary authority so doesn't lie in any county. But it lies in the geographic county of Cambridgeshire, and it lies in the three historic counties mentioned. --Wik 21:04, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I seem to be banging my head against a brick wall, here. Let me put this as clearly as possible:
1. We have established (by link posted by the anome) that administratively, peterborough is in no administrative county - it is a UAA. 2. We have also established that Peterborough is in the traditional (syn. "historic" and "geographic[al]") county of Northamptonshire.
Therefore:
1. saying "It lies in the geographical county of Cambridgeshire" is untrue. 2. saying it lies in "in the historic counties of Northamptonshire, Cambridgeshire, and Huntingdonshire" is highly ambigious, since only "Peterborough UAA" does, and you have first stated: "Peterborough is a unitary authority and city"
- Well, I disagree with what you have "established". Geographic and historic counties are not synonymous. And the city and unitary authority are coextensive. Only the original core (the "Soke of Peterborough") is in historic Northamptonshire. Other parts of today's city are in historic Cambridgeshire and Huntingdonshire. --Wik 21:16, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
- The Wikipedia traditional county article states ""traditional counties" (also known as the "geographic counties")". I had established this with another comment-maker. However, the posting of the above link hereby formally establishes it for you!
Can't we all agree with something along the lines of "Peterborough" is now administered as a unitary authority. The centre of the city is in the historic county of Northamptonshire, with other parts of todays city in the historic counties of Cambridgeshire and Huntingdonshire"?
Wik, you make a distinction between "historic counties" and "geographic counties" - I'm not clear what the distinction is between these terms (and the article isn't clear either).
Enchanter 22:21, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
- A geographic county has a lord lieutenant. It typically comprises an administrative county and one or more unitary authorities. For example, geographic Cambridgeshire comprises administrative Cambridgeshire plus the Peterborough unitary authority. Administrative Cambridgeshire in turn includes historic Cambridgeshire and most of historic Huntingdonshire. --Wik 22:35, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)