Talk:Kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart

Lou Dobbs/public distraction

The Lou Dobbs/public distraction hypothesis is a bit of a stretch. Ortolan88 06:00 Mar 14, 2003 (UTC)

Agreed. Out it goes. sNowwis

Why just the rich kids

Without question, I am extremely happy for Elizabeth and her successful return from her ordeal. All that aside, I seriously question why out of the 100,000s of child abductions each year in the U.S., the stories that makes national media involves attractive girls from affluent neighborhoods. To be blunt, how many fat or acne-riddled or freckle-faced abducted girls make the national media? Moreover, how many abducted boys make the national media? Why a Wiki article about Elizabeth Smart and not about the 10,000s of others of recovered abductions each year? Kingturtle 20:24 Mar 15, 2003 (UTC)

I think a general article about the phenomenon of missing children would be a very valuable addition to Wikipedia. Are you up to it, Kingturtle? Danny

I have many things on my Wiki-plate. It is easy for me to ask the questions (listed above). To answer them will take a great deal of study. I wouldn't be able to start such an article until the summer or the fall. Kingturtle 20:58 Mar 15, 2003 (UTC)

I don't know if this is addressed in a thread below, but Smart's father is affluent and used his resources to push this case into the public eye. The media would've covered it (a bit) anyway, but not to as great a deal as they did had he not spent so much money raising awareness of his missing daughter. —Frecklefoot 20:09, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Canadian Writer?

My, she seems awefully young to be a Canadian writer. Tannin

Future Changes

I hope this article on Elizabeth Smart can grow along with the case. Future headings of significance to criminologists could include: The Investigation, Pre-Trial Activities, The Trial, The Sentencing, Prison Life, Parole, Impact on the Community, Missing Children.

These topics get less and less coverage these days because the networks are interested in being first -- and only first -- with the movie of the week based on a particular case. To win the race against the other networks, they'll do a deal based on the earliest feasible version of the story. In other words, the Elizabeth Smart story will end with her recovery (and most likely center around the parents' ordeal) and will cover the rest with a couple paragraphs of text added to the end credits just before broadcast. Check out the Reuter's article, TV Networks Racing to Get Smart to see what I mean. SNowwis

I predict that the Smart family will be so slow to respond to any of the 100 or so proposals they've received that the networks will run with whatever they can find in the public domain. As soon as a writer can show there's a story possible with just PD material, talks with the Smarts will cease, cameras will roll in a few weeks at one studio, the other networks will lose interest in the Elizabeth Smart story, and there will be no further incentive to cover the case. This is where Wikipedia can come in, tracking the case from its community roots to its long-term impact on the community. SNowwis

More Improvements

Pre-trial activities would be a next logical topic in this article. Since her return the overall theme seems to still be the conflict between silence and the need to know. Here are the most recent developments I am tracking:

Charges have been filed with details from the police of abduction and sexual assault.
Who gets the reward money?
Parents criticize police efforts. Investigation slated.
Prosecution insists on uncovering more details of sexual assault.
Parents urge prosecutors to drop sexual assault charges.
Will the tv version be based on public domain information?

Any other themes come to mind? SNowwis

What about the propensity of the Smart family, living in a lavish home, willing to pay below-minimum-wages to day laborers off the street instead of licensed contractors? -- Zoe

And has Mitchell been formally charged with attempting to kidnap Elizabeth's cousin? -- Zoe

Yes, Mitchell and Barzee were both charged with attempted aggravated kidnapping of the cousin.

As to working with street types, check out this snippet from an AP story today:

"Members of Bikers Against Child Abuse, which has 34 chapters in 13 states, packed several benches in 3rd District Court to watch Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzee speak to the court via videoconference."

"Their interest was personal: During the nine months the teenager was missing, they rode their Harley-Davidsons over hundreds of Utah mountain and desert trails looking for her."

"J.P. Lilly, an instructor at Brigham Young University's graduate school of social work, started the group in 1995 as a way to further his work with traumatized children."

Maybe letting street people work in your home is a form of charity combined with personal challenge -- creating an opportunity for values clarification. From what I've read about them, the Smarts come across as very demanding. The moment they brought her home, the parents made Elizabeth play the harp for the whole extended family there. Then after she stumbled through her performance, her dad went on national television to mimic her saying, "Well, it's been... nine... months!" SNowwis

Photo

I think the photo of Elizabeth should be removed. She did not ask to be a celebrity. Let her go back into privacy and live her life away from media blitzes. Kingturtle 04:04 Mar 20, 2003 (UTC)

I just saw the movie "A Cry in the Dark" with Meryl Streep and am humbled by something someone said in it: "I don't think people realize how important innocence is to innocent people."

So I'm wrestling with your concern and suggest replacing the family photo of Elizabeth with something more indirect, such as a shot of the poster she signed for the park celebration, or her parents holding a Reward flyer. SNowwis

I'd like to point out that at ElizabethSmart.com, Elizabeth's uncle, Tom Smart, has posted numerous new photos of Elizabeth and her family, and he also submitted these pictures to GettyImages.com, a stock photo company. So I'm not sure if the exclusion of her picture in her Wikipedia article is going to protect her from celebrity. SNowwis

ugh, it saddens me that her uncle would do such a thing. it is my humble opinion that she should be given her anonymity back. in fact, the more i think about it, i'm enraged. her family should be protecting her from the post-kidnapping media blitzes, rather than participating in them. Kingturtle 22:43 Mar 20, 2003 (UTC)

Well, the parents did urge the police to drop the sexual assault charges to protect their daughter from questioning along those lines, but at the same time they've criticized the police for their failure to follow up on new leads. So the police are pressing on. I tell you, this theme of silence vs. need-to-know is something that fuels many of our big stories these days. It's only natural in this case that if millions of American families were emotionally engaged in the search for ES, those people will not want to be sent packing with so many unanswered questions involving such bizarre circumstances. There was strong suspicion that ES was a runaway, leading to more suspicion that the family invented the abduction story in order to mobilize a national search party. Perhaps you should map out the proper rules of engagement in alerting the public about missing teenagers in order to manage the public's expectations. SNowwis

Reconciliation attempt

Here's an idea for reconciliation (I'm making an attempt at the "timeless" element here):

Hephaestos 05:17 Apr 1, 2003 (UTC)

No offense to Elizabeth Smart (2000s media sensation), but unless she goes onto a career of notoriety, she will become a historic footnote as a 2003 media sensation. Does anyone today remember Aimee Semple McPherson? Kingturtle 06:07 Apr 1, 2003 (UTC)
- Apparently you and I do. *grin* But I daresay Aimee will be better known an additional sixty years from now than this Elizabeth will. And that's not much. Hephaestos 06:12 Apr 1, 2003 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and parted these articles out as above, although I'm still not sure about the title; any suggestions appreciated. (I thought of "Elizabeth Ann Smart" but that's not really what she's known by; I thought of "Elizabeth Smart (kidnap victim)" but was hesitant to label her as a "victim." - Hephaestos 22:14 Apr 7, 2003 (UTC)

I'm not sure that "media sensation" is more respectful than "kidnap victim". How about "Kidnapped child" or "abducted child"? -- Someone else 22:19 Apr 7, 2003 (UTC)

Only problem with those is that they imply present tense; she's been found all right. - Hephaestos

I don't know why they should imply that, any more than Elizabeth Smart (writer) would imply she's still writing. -- Someone else 22:31 Apr 7, 2003 (UTC)

Why are you hesitant to label her a kidnap victim? She WAS a victim, and that's what made her famous. She is not famous for being famous, or famous being a 'media sensation'... her status as 'media sensation' is a RESULT, not the REASON for her notoriety. -- Jordan Langelier

Why did this get made this title? This is awful! What's wrong with just the original name? -- Zoe

This article name is unacceptable. Please, in the future, discuss the matter in TALK before making such a rash move. I am changing it back until it is discussed within this forum. Kingturtle 03:47 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC) oops. Zoe beat me too it. Hey Zoe, can you move the TALK section over to the new name? Kingturtle 03:48 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)

Kingturtle, I discussed this (if anyone would care to scroll up and look) almost a week ago, and received no objection to such a move, indeed hardly any feedback whatsoever. If you'd like to move the article to a better title, feel free (although it might be a good idea to use the move command this time rather than a cut and paste hack job as Zoe did earlier). - Hephaestos

God, time flies. I even was part of that discussion. How embarassing. At least I opposed that particular title then, as I do now. My apologies for my absent-mindedness. Kingturtle 04:01 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)

My apologies too, for apparently mis-reading you input back then. I only just now noticed the 2003 part. - Hephaestos 04:07 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)

re "kidnap victim" - it could be argued that we don't know for sure whether she was a victim or not - she may have made an informed decision to hang out with a couple of homeless guys - the two are still only "alleged" abductors, after all. Perhaps "(missing person)" would be more neutral? Martin 19:43 May 14, 2003 (UTC)

LOL! OH MY GOD, I just passed my Mt. Dew through my nose!!! (rolling on the floor... in pain from the laughter) Priceless! You, Sir, are a comedic genius! Thank you, Martin! (resumes giggling)... this was the best part: "she may have made an informed decision to hang out with a couple of homeless guys" OH, YOU ARE THE NEXT CARSON! Have you ever tried stand-up?

Move to Elizabeth Ann Smart

I think we should move this article to "Elizabeth Ann Smart", since the middle name will distinguish her from the author. WhisperToMe 03:55, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)

She is not known by the name "Elizabeth Ann Smart" though. The articles already distinguish between the two via the disambiguation page. - Hephaestos 05:41, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Yes, but I think that she should be distinguished through the middle name. If the author turns out to have the same middle name, than "kidnap victim" would be a good idea, in my opinion. WhisperToMe 00:09, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

"Middle names should be avoided unless they are the most common form of a name (as in, say, John Wilkes Booth). " – from Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(common_names). - Hephaestos 19:36, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Where's she from?

The article says she's from Salt Lake City but lives in Sandy. Which is it? RickK 00:32, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Sandy is a suburb of SLC. —Frecklefoot 20:09, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Moved page

I moved the page because I thought it was tacky to have someone living (NTM young )be attached to a crime in the article title. Call me silly... 戴&#30505sv 01:17, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Title Change?

What's with the title? What's wrong with Elizabeth_Smart_(kidnap_victim)? --Jiang 05:14, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Apparently it isn't PC. - Hephaestos 05:16, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Why not just leave this as Elizabeth Smart, and have the writer as Elizabeth Smart (writer)? I don't think as many people would be looking for the writer. Adam Bishop 05:21, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Why shouldn't they be looking for the writer? Is the kidnap victim more important for some reason? - Hephaestos 05:22, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Probably not...but more newsworthy, and more likely to be searched for at the moment. Adam Bishop 05:27, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I have no problem with what was the status quo a couple of days ago, and probably fit the search engines just fine. Apparently someone had willies over describing the currently newsworthy one as a "kidnap victim" and that's fine with me too. But as far as searchability on Google etc. I really could care less, and will soon probably move all this back to where it was before the USA "news" agencies decided to do stories on it. - Hephaestos 05:33, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)

OK, now let me see if I've got this straight. Can't use Smart's middle name to disambiguate this page because a rule say it should be 'avoided'. But making the title laugable by tacking on 'media sensation' is presumably preferrable to the dreaded middle name because there is no rule against it. People crack me up sometimes ;^) Jordan Langelier

Elizabeth Smart (2000s media sensation) is absolutely the worst possible alternative. If we can't use the middle name, let's please go back to kidnap victim! RickK 03:16, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Here's an idea. Why not just let the "kidnap victim" page be "Elizabeth Smart" and the "author" page be "Elizabeth Smart (author)". Put text at the top of the "kidnap victim" page saying that there is an author by the same name. Kind of like an indirect disambiguation. Most people (certainly most Wikipedians ;) who look up "Elizabeth Smart" would want the "kidnap victim" page, but those few who come here looking for the author page will get the gist of the situation by a parenthetical explaination at the top of the 'main' page. Yeah yeah yeah, it's dissing an accomplished woman for a victim, and it's not optimal, but this seems to be a special circumstance. At least it would avoid the goofiness. Jordan Langelier 04:11, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

This should be moved back to Elizabeth Ann Smart. The argument that she isn't known by her middle name is just plain silly. ☮ Eclecticology 19:11, 2003 Oct 29 (UTC)

She didn't set out to be a media sensation - besides, that's too vague. On the other hand, it's not entirely clear that she was kidnapped. Unless the two drifters she was found with, are convicted of kidnapping...

I think this is a time for using a middle name. If we have to, we can mention in the article that she "doesn't go by her middle name". (I'm Edmund Ward Poor III, but I go by Ed Poor because I like the sound of "Ed" better than "Edmund") --Uncle Ed 19:46, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Naming issues aside, it's entirely clear that she was kidnapped, whether or not anyone in particular is charged, tried or convicted of the crime. -- Someone else 19:52, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Oh, well, you're entirely right about that. I'm just trying to find an agreeable comprimise for the article title. --Uncle Ed 20:01, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

"The argument that she isn't known by her middle name is just plain silly."

Why is it "silly," because you say it is? "Elizabeth Ann Smart" gives 64 hits on Google. One of course is ours; a good percentage of the rest are 18th and 19th century people by that name on people's genealogy websites.

If the article is named "Elizabeth Ann Smart" half the people looking for it aren't even going to know who the heck we're talking about. It's quite clear that nobody with the possible exception of the people who filled out her birth certificate ever called her that. The operative rule here is the most common form of the name used in English and it's a good rule; there's no reason to make exceptions on the basis of what appears to be squeamish waffling over the perceived "demeaning and sensationalistic" qualities of what is at its base a perfectly accurate and NPOV descriptor ("kidnap victim").

Or we could try what Jordan Langelier mentioned a bit back and have this be "Elizabeth Smart" with a disambig block at the top, at least until she becomes again less important than the author. But the page isn't staying here. - Hephaestos 21:56, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I don't care what it is, as long as it isn't media sensation, but let's quit moving it back and forth. RickK 03:13, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Oh and by the way, none of this ridiculous nit-picking ever belonged on the mailing list. - Hephaestos 14:16, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)

ElizabethSmart.com

Has anyone been able to access this website? Is it real? I tried it and some variants (ElizabethSmart.net, ElizabethSmart.org) with no success. Can someone look into this?

BTW, per the discussion above, I think this article should be titled "Elizabeth Smart"—no one in the media mentions her middle name. —Frecklefoot 16:31, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

This comment is a good indicator of how much gets read on a talk page. :-) If you haven't the time to read the above then Elizabeth Smart will tell you. ☮ Eclecticology 19:31, 2003 Oct 30 (UTC)

I did read it, but perhaps I wasn't clear. Elizabeth Smart is a big media news item right now. It is likely that users will add wikilinks to her name not realizing there is another person by that name or what her middle name is. To avoid confusion, her name, Elizabeth Smart, should be used as the main article and the disam to Elizabeth Smart (author) can go at the top of the page. In the meantime, however, the disam page is the next-best solution. —Frecklefoot 19:58, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Writing Convention

In this article, sometimes she is referred to as Smart; sometimes she is referred to as Elizabeth. The wikipedia convention is that it should always be last name. Are there any reasons to refer to her by first name? Kingturtle 15:56, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I think because there are several people named "Smart" in the issue. Does Smart refer to her father, mother or her herself? You are right about Wiki convention, but I think the ambiguity of the term in this case is the reason for referring to her by her first name. But I notice she is often referred to by just her last name, especially near the beginning of the article. —Frecklefoot 17:45, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Elizabeth Smart- 9 months of hell on earth

Personally, I really love Elizabeth Smart. Every night, I try to find information on her and I have a really bad feeling inside for her. I mean, the things she had to go through. She was tortured. The man who calls himself 'Emanuel' should be killed. His wife too. Why would a man of God kidnap a young girl at 14 at knife-point and then steal, and then rape? All I want to know is why. I cannot express the feelings I have for Elizabeth Smart. She is the luckiest girl in the world. Much Love to You Elizabeth.

Brianna Burns

The torture and rape will have to be proven in a court of law. That Emanuel was the original abductor will also have to be proven. I hope that Elizabeth is getting proper counseling, and lots of it. Kingturtle 04:09, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Page name options

more specific by middle name or year of birth
- Elizabeth Ann Smart
  - Vote: Dori, Jiang
- Elizabeth A. Smart
  - Vote: Jiang
- Elizabeth Smart (1987-)
  - Vote: Dori, Daniel Quinlan, Salsa Shark
how known
- Elizabeth Smart (media sensation)
why known
- Elizabeth Smart (kidnap victim)
  - Vote: Salsa Shark
- Elizabeth Smart (abductee)
  - Vote: Daniel Quinlan, Tuf-Kat, Jiang
restructure as event
- Elizabeth Smart kidnapping
  - Vote: Kingturtle, Dori, Daniel Quinlan, Jiang

Please vote, first for method, then a specific choice. This is not a big deal. Comments below. Daniel Quinlan 06:18, Dec 11, 2003 (UTC)

Any of the above except "Elizabeth Ann Smart" would satisfy the naming conventions, so I guess I'll abstain from voting, but will comment "media sensation" seems to me as more of a "why known", whereas "kidnap victim" seems more of a "how known." - Hephaestos 06:26, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

"...Ann..." is unacceptable. I don't much care what's in the parens, but if it's date of birth, it must be followed by a hyphen. (Date of death should not be added when she dies - the purpose is to be unambiguous, not to be a mini-biography.) Salsa Shark 06:32, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Prince Rogers Nelson must need fixing too then :) Dori | Talk 06:52, Dec 11, 2003 (UTC)

That's easy: Prince (artist) Daniel Quinlan 06:54, Dec 11, 2003 (UTC)

There isn't another P.R.N. who warrants an article at the moment, anyway, so it's not a problem. Salsa Shark 07:00, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

He's never known as Prince Rogers Nelson, but as Prince, primarily. I would vote moving the article to The Artist Formerly Known as Prince, because it's the most common, unambiguous name. Tuf-Kat 07:09, Dec 11, 2003 (UTC)

Though he no longer signs his checks with that... For the curious, the Library of Congress' name authority file uses 'Prince', but with 400 fields (MARC's equivalent of redirects) for 'Nelson, Prince Rogers', 'Artist Formerly Known as Prince' (no 'the'), and 'TAFKAP'. Salsa Shark 07:15, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

As an addition to this, something should also be done about the Matthew Perrys, because the actor is never known using his middle name. Adam Bishop 07:16, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Neither was the Commodore (thus leading to the confusion with Galbraith mentioned in the article). - Hephaestos 07:21, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)