Talk:Harry Dexter White

Roger Sandilands

As the original author of this article on White I object to the way it can be edited by someone else in this way. The person who edited my piece (D J Clayworth? see below) asserts that White was a spy. I did not assert that, though I made it plain that he was _accused_ of spying, which is very different. So I am now going to delete the last part of the article, to restore my original text. I have done the same with my article on Lauchlin Currie, where someone again inserted contentious (and illiterate) material into my article. Again, if you don't like what you read, add a signed addendum, or write in the discussion page. Thanks. Roger Sandilands (r.j.sandilands@strath.ac.uk)

To the original author of this article:

Hi Roger

Please note that a) Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a forum for reviewing books; b) you should not sign your name on articles. Articles are common property. For more information please see Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers.

Having said that, you obviously know your stuff. I was fascinated by what I found out about Harry White. I rewrote the article, not because I thought I knew more about Harry White than you, but to give you an idea of what we are looking for at Wikipedia. My style could definitely be improved, but the main point is that we are looking for biography in articles about people. I hope you will keep contributing to Wikipedia, You obviously have a lot to offer.

DJ Clayworth 13:18, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hi Roger. It's important to remember that no one at Wikipedia has ownership of an article; it's a public encyclopedia that anyone can edit; if you dislike having articles you have contributed to edited mercilessly, you may not enjoy yourself here. With that being said, you have every right to dispute information you feel is inaccurate in an article. Also, you should really add new text to talk pages at the bottom of the page, not the top. People will expect new comments to be added at the bottom; noone is likely to see your comment way up here. Also, when making comments please sign them by typing four tildes ~~~~. It makes it a lot easier to sort out who's said what. · Katefan0^(scribble) 02:08, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

---

Hi! I don't know why must delete this page (Harry Dexter White). Because he sign? You are delete the sign and at all... not? PEDA

Not deleted based on discussion at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Harry White

Inconsistency

This article implies that White was not a Communist. The Henry Wallace article says outright that he was a Soviet spy. Obviously this is problematic. john k 04:43, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That's not necessarily an inconsistency - plenty of KGB moles (including most of those in the UK) weren't communists. More spying was driven by money than ideology - selling secrets or succumbing to blackmail. White certainly wasn't a communist, and there doesn't appear to be any solid evidence that he spied for the Soviets. Mind you, the absence of solid evidence doesn't seem to prevent a number of other articles listing their subjects as Soviet spies. -- Gregg 11:52, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Rewrite needed

These discredited McCarthyite lies against White keep on getting reinserted. This article needs a complete rewrite. I think that the IMF's biography is public domain, and we can use it as a basis for a new article. [1] I'd appreciate it if someone could double check this for me? Thanks. 172 07:05, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The terms and conditions are: The IMF grants permission to visit this Site and to download and copy information, documents and materials from this Site for personal, non-commercial use only, without any right to resell or redistribute them or to compile or create derivative works, subject to these Terms of Use and also subject to more specific restrictions that may apply to particular information within this Site. See the Copyright and Permissions policy to find out how to request other permissions from the IMF. Any rights not expressly granted herein are reserved. Is Wikipedia not subject to the restrictions against derivative works and redistribution because it is non-commercial? 172 07:25, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

IANAL, but I don't think Wiki can use it because of the derivatives. Every time we edit it we make a derivative version. Also, since Wikipedia allows its work to be used for commercial purposes, we can't use it. It's incompatible with the wiki licence. Putting it on wiki would also be redistributing it. Basically, they are allowing you to make hard copies for research and educational purposes. Steve block 10:01, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Another good source, though NOT public domain (and not free outside university libraries with subcriptions) is James Boughton "New Light on Harry Dexter White" Journal of the History of Economic Thought, June 2004, vol. 26, no. 2, pp. 179-195. 172 07:09, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Seems Broughton is the same source as the IMF site; how does this qualify as "another source"?Nobs01 17:44, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Use of the term McCarthite betrays a POV, seeing the Harry Dexter White matter predates Joseph McCarthy & McCarthyism by several years. This is proven by prima facia evidence. Nobs01 16:08, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Your explicit declaration that he was a spy, in spite of the apparent existence of dispute on this question, shows much more strongly your POV. john k 16:16, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Reversion

Reverted text placed here for editing.

White became involved with Soviet intelligence espionage in May of 1941. One of his most valuable assets was his ability to place in the Treasury Department individuals the Silvermaster ring wanted to have assinged in the department. Among them were Lud Ullman, William Henry Taylor, and Sonia Gold.

After the war, White was closely involved with setting up what were called the Bretton Woods institutions - the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank. These institutions were intended to prevent some of the economic problems that occurred after the First World War, and help ensure that capitalism became the dominant post-war economic system. After the war, White was closely involved with setting up what were called the Bretton Woods institutions - the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank. These institutions were intended to prevent some of the economic problems that occurred after the First World War, and help ensure that capitalism became the dominant post-war economic system.

On December 4, 1945, the FBI transmitted to the White House a report entitled "Soviet Espionage in the United States." The report summarized White's espionage activities. Copies of the report were sent to Attorney General Thomas Clark too. The evidence indicated a substantial spy ring operating within the Government and involving White. Given the secrecy of the Venona project materials, the president went ahead six weeks later and nominated White for appointment to the International Monetary Fund.

In August 1948, White appeared before the House Un-American Activities Committee to defend his reputation. Two former spies, Elizabeth Bentley and Whittaker Chambers, were alleging that he had spied for Russia. Bentley said his colleagues had passed information to her from him. Chambers claimed that White gave him documents for an underground Communist cell in the 1930s. White, though recovering from a series of heart attacks, stoutly proclaimed his lifelong commitment to the principles of democracy and the ideals of Roosevelt's New Deal. He died of a heart attack three days later and HUAC dropped the case.

In August 1948, Harry Dexter White appeared before the House Un-American Activities Committee to defend his reputation. Two former spies, Elizabeth Bentley and Whittaker Chambers, were alleging that he had spied for the Soviet Union and was a member of the Silvermaster ring. FBI laboratories established a highly confidential handwritten memorandum provided to Chambers in 1938 was White's handwriting. Bentley said his colleagues had passed information to her from him and accused White of providing stolen U.S. currency plates to the Soviet Union. The plates were used to print unlimited amounts of occupation currency in the eastern zone of postwar Germany precipitating the Berlin Crisis. Chambers claimed that White gave him documents for an underground Communist cell in the 1930s. White, though recovering from a series of heart attacks, stoutly proclaimed his lifelong commitment to the principles of democracy and the ideals of Roosevelt's New Deal. He died of a heart attack three days later and HUAC dropped the case. + Some believe one of the code names in the secret VENONA project referred to White (all of the agents in VENONA were identified by code names only.) In 1953, claims were made by Senator Joseph McCarthy and others that Truman had known that White was a Soviet spy when he appointed him to the IMF. FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover convinced Attorney General Herbert Brownell that White was a spy, and White's reputation was publicly vilified. White's bronze bust was ignominiously removed to the IMF's basement.

Venona cyphers quote him as saying he was willing for any self-sacrifice on behalf of the MGB, but was afraid that his activities, if exposed, might lead to a political scandal and have an effect on the 1944 Presidential election. In 1953 J. Edgar Hoover convinced Attorney General Brownell that White was a spy. White's bronze bust was ignominiously removed to the IMF's basement.

External links

• Biography of White by the IMF
• FBI Venona FOIA
• FBI Silvermaster file, p.27
• Time Magazine, The White Case Record, Nov. 30, 1953

See also

• Biography of White by the IMF
• History of Soviet espionage in the United States

FBI Venona file

pgs. 17-18 Text

Office Memorandum ° UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT

DATE: October 16, 1950

TO: The Director

FROM: Mr. Ladd

SUBJECT: ESPIONAGE - R

PURPOSE: To advise you of the positive identification of agent Jurist (the cover name of a Soviet agent operating in 1944 and named by [Venona project]) as Harry Dexter White, deceased. White was formerly the Administrative Assistant to former Secretary of the Treasury Morgenthau.

DETAILS: You have previously been advised of information obtained from [Venona project] regarding Jurist who was active during 1944. According to the previous information received from [Venona project regarding Jurist, during April, 1944, he had reported on conversations between the then Secretary of State Hull and Vice President Wallace. He also reported on Wallace's proposed trip to China. On August 5, 1944, he reported to the Soviets that he was confident of President Roosevelt's victory in the coming elections unless there was a huge military failure. He also reported that Truman's nomination as Vice President was calculated to secure the vote of the conservative wing of the Democratic Party. It was also reported that Jurist was willing for any self-sacrifice in behalf of the MGB but was afraid that his activities, if exposed, might lead to a political scandal and have an effect on the elections. It was also mentioned that he would be returning to Washington, D. C., on August 17, 1944. The new information from [Venona project] indicates that Jurist and Morgenthau were to make a trip to London and Normandy and leaving the United States on August 5, 1944.

On the basis of the foregoing, the tentative identification of Harry Dexter White as Jurist appears to be conclusively established inasmuch as Morgenthau and White left the United States on a confidential trip to the Normandy beachhead on August 5, 1944, and they returned to the United States on August 17, 1944.

You may recall that Harry Dexter White was named by Whittaker Chambers in his statements as having been a source of information for Chambers in his work in Soviet espionage until Chambers broke with the Soviets in 1938. Chambers produced a handwritten memorandum that White had given him and our Laboratory established this memorandum as being in White's handwriting. The Treasury Department advised that parts of the material were highly confidential, coming to the Treasury Department from the Department of State.

In addition to the foregoing, Elizabeth T. Bentley in November, 1945, advised that she had learned through Nathan Gregory Silvermaster that White was supplying Silvermaster with information which was obtained by White in the course of his duties as Assistant to the Secretary of the of the Treasury.

RECOMMENDATION:

There is attached hereto a blind memorandum which has been prepared for the information and assistance of [redacted] setting forth this identification. There is also attached a memorandum to the Field giving them the new information from [Venona project] which establishes conclusively the identity of White as Jurist.

Attachment

Morgenthau Diary

The concentration of Communist sympathizers in the Treasury Department, and particularly the Division of Monetary Research, is now a matter of record. White was the first director of that division; those who succeeded him in the directorship were Frank Coe and Harold Glasser. Also attached to the Division of Monetary Research were William Ludwig Ullman, [[Irving Kaplan[[, and Victor Perlo. White, Coe, Glasser, Kaplan, and Perlo were all identified as participants in the Communist conspiracy…In his one appearance before the House Committee in 1948, White emphatically denied participation in any conspiracy. A few days later he was found dead, the apparent victim of suicide by sleeping pills.” Morgenthau Diary, p. 80.

How much evidence is "enough?"

It boggles the mid that so many people can state with a straight fact that there is "no," "little" or "insufficient" evidence indicating whether Harry Dexter White was a soviet spy. The evidence is overwhelming. Had he not died, he would have been tried and executred as a Soviet Spy. The fact that he died before he could be tried does not mean, as some state, that he "was cleared" or "was never charged."

That article is left-leaning propaganda, pure and simple.

To add - almost parenthetically and at the END of the article - ambiguous statements about White's involvement with the Soviet Union is laughable. The man was a spy. A paid Soviet spy. You'd think that would rate inclusion in the first paragraph of his bio.... unless you want to "bury" it for ideological reasons.

Amen. And given the appologists at the IMF today, of coarse it's easy to pile all the blame on Frank Coe & Solomon Adler (incidentally, I need hel uploading this image Mao, Coe, Adler & Strong), seeing they both died in China after implementing thier economic ideas that resulted in the Three Years of Natural Disasters.Nobs01 21:54, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Although not all, here are the most damning decrypts:

1119-1121 to Moscow, 4 August 1944, Translation 50; New York 1634 to Moscow, 20 November 1944, Translation 71; and New York 79 to Moscow, 18 January 1945, Translation 84.

RfC

I've had a read of this page so hopefully I'm up to speed...

I can't see what can't be sorted out by applying the policies of Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Cite sources and Wikipedia:Verifibility. People seem to be talk about evidence for against White being a spy - so just write the article from them. Say source X says he was a spy, source Y says that's a disputed source, and source Z says he wasn't a spy.

It might help if you had a go at colating the relevant references here on the Talk page first, and then discussing how to use them. Dan100 (Talk) 07:31, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

Does the United States government, in its various entities of National Archives and Records Administration, Department of Justice, Army Signal Intelligence Service, and other agencies qualify as a single "source"?Nobs01 20:59, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Stuff moved from talk pages

I'm moving this stuff from my and Nobs's talk page, since it is relevant to the arguments here: john k 21:13, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am available now to discuss any problems with the article. The reference to McCarthy you just reverted to is clearly out of place, seeing all the McCarthy business came much later, and was perhaps even motivated after the Harry Dexter White matter was disposed of. Please read the Time magazine article at the bottom of the page regarding the White matter in 1945- 46; while does give a good insight into how American percieved the matter in 1953, according to the notorious McCarthyite publication Time Magazine, the material I added in for factual refernce to pre-1948 is indisputable. Nobs01 16:28, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but what your edits are obviously trying to do is to indicate that Harry Truman was a communist sympathizer. As to a Time magazine article from 1953 as a reliable source, please. Time magazine was a McCarthyite source in 1953! See Henry Luce (although our article on him isn't very good). Beyond that, surely there must be some recent sources on White that establish what people think about it now. Forgive me for not having much faith in a Time magazine article from 1953. john k 16:49, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry if that is the impression, and I will be happy to work with you to achieve a NPOV vis-a vis Harry Truman. However this matter relates to the entire period of American history, basically from 1921 onwards (see History of Soviet espionage in the United States). Clearly, Truman was no communist symapthizer, witness Truman Doctrine, Containment etc. However, the primary source to gain proper perspective is FBI Venona file pgs. 61-75, where we see Venona project evidence was kept secret from President Truman himself, which explains why he went ahead with the appointment of White. (See also Talk:Whittaker_Chambers#Psychiatrist for the basic thesis, that while it was true a large Soviet appartus existed in D.C. in the 1930s & 40s, McCarthy began with a half truth and went after the wrong people. Most probably because in his perception, the FBI wasn't doing anything about it. Hence the real significance of the FBI Venona file pgs. 61-75). All this information needs to be inserted properly throughout a host of articles). Trust me, I am no defender of McCarthy and not a critic of Truman, but it seems while McCarthy persecuted innocent people, many of the truelly guilty have been able to hide & escape on the cloak of being McCarthyite victims. For now, until you have had time to examine the documents, to achieve a NPOV, I propose removing the McCarthyism reference in the Harry Dexter White article to where it can be reinserted later after the pre-McCarthy Venona material is properly handled. Thanks. Nobs01 17:14, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If you want to remove stuff, that's fine. That being said, I will admit a considerable lack of knowledge about the Venona files. In particular, I don't feel that I have enough specific background in this stuff to be able to read the document you give me and have any understanding of what it means in context. I would greatly appreciate a scholarly secondary source from the last decade or so that discusses the question of White's involvement with the communists. john k 17:29, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Very good. I will be happy to work with you if you are interested. This article Politics and the Attack on FDR's Economists I beleive is comes from an IMF publication. While I don't agree with all its conclusions, offers some balance. The case of Lauchlin Currie is somewhat even more disputed, and personally I have trouble with it cause I genuinely like the guy; but it appears he was not just an ideological informant, but a paid informant. I placed the reversions on the Talk page and will makes some changes and submit them to you. The notorious right-wing rag, Time magazine, is interesting in that it gives a glimpse into the atmosphere of popular public perceptions in 1953 apart from McCarthy. For now (and I expect for a quite a while), I am not really even dealing with the decade of the 1950s. Thanks. Nobs01 17:40, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Rewrite of disputed text.

On December 4, 1945, the FBI transmitted to the White House a report entitled "Soviet Espionage in the United States." The report summarized White's espionage activities. Copies of the report were sent to Attorney General Thomas Clark too. The evidence indicated a substantial spy ring operating within the Government and involving White. Given the secrecy of the Venona project materials, the president went ahead six weeks later and nominated White for appointment to the International Monetary Fund.Nobs01 18:12, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't like that version, either. Among other things, it implies that it is uncontroversial to say he was involved in espionage. Given the link you sent me from cooperativeindividualism.org, which I am in the process of reading, it seems to me that this is questionable. I think the minimum that that article admits about White should certainly be put in - that he employed a good number of communists in the Treasury, and was friends with various known communist spies; that he was almost certainly very loose with his tongue, and didn't see any problem with telling his communist underlings about his work; that he is mentioned in the Venona dispatches. Beyond that, it seems to be disputed - certainly, Boughton and Sandilands dispute it, and they seem to be relatively reputable sources. I think it is absolutely key that the various different explanations for White's behavior be brought in, and that we not just say he was a spy. john k 18:17, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Good points; I don't wish to be too hasty. I will however also include National Security Archive (two extracts from the mongraph: "Exploitation of VENONA exposes major KGB espionage agents such as Klaus Fuchs, Harry Gold, David Greenglass, Theodore Hall, William Perl, the Rosenbergs, Guy Burgess, Donald Maclean, Kim Philby, and Harry D. White" and "UN conference (attended by KGB agent Harry Dexter White") link to the External links where anyone can access the decrypts themself. This I beleive may even be overkill. The accumulated evidence over the decades is overwhelming to the point of being conclusive. One would expect an apologists of course, perhaps even from the IMF itself. But I beleive any issues in the [cooperativeindividualism.org] link, vis-a-vis White can ultimately be refuted. Lauchlin Currie, however, is where the dispute really should take place, IMHO. In his case, there does appear alot of evidence against the guy, to the point of even being paid, but the motive issues dont' always square with what appear to be his fundemental beliefs. Truelly a much more complex character. Nobs01 18:45, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nobs, the question is not what you or I or the NSA think (obviously you and the NSA think that White is guilty; I don't really feel like I know enough to say one way or the other.) The question is if there is a legitimate dispute over whether or not he is guilty, or if it is generally accepted that he is guilty. Again, I don't feel that I am necessarily up on this enough to say for sure, but the existence of an article by seemingly serious people which argues that he isn't guilty suggests that there is still some dispute (Could one at this point find similar articles about Alger Hiss, for instance?) As to the IMF, considering that, per our article, they moved his bust to the basement, I don't see that they would necessarily be likely to defend White. Once again, the existence of a relatively non-partisan account of this would make deciding this much easier. john k 19:08, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, the Alger Hiss is the sore point of partisan dispute in the United States now for two generations. Watergate, indeed can be seen as a political vendetta by Hiss defenders against Richard Nixon, who rose from an obscure congressman to the Presidency by sending Alger Hiss, the first Secretary General of the United Nations to prison because of his Communist espionage activities which resulted in the Western betrayal at the Yalta Conference. All those issues can be dealt with there when the time comes. What is particularly dispicable about some of these characters (like Hiss), is that rather than admit to his own complicity, he was willing to cast aspersions upon people around him & subordinates who trusted him until he died in 1992. These questions are all actively being debated on those talk pages. The question of Harry White giving Soviet intelligence stolen templates to conterfeit US currency is indisputable, and doesnt pass the anti-fascist test. As to separating White from Truman, because Truman truelly was in the dark about his complicity, which led to 50 years of lies and distortions, and partisan bitterness in the United States (see VENONA_project#Significance), again let me refer you to the FBI Venona file pgs. 61-75, which needs to placed in Wikisource. Nobs01 19:24, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Here's another source [2], a book by R. Bruce Craig, which also seems to suggest that White has not been proven to be a communist spy. As to the counterfeit US currency thing, what is your source for this? (And the Nixon and Hiss thing - well, I think I'll do best just to pretend you didn't say that). My point about Hiss was that you will not find scholars today who are willing to defend Hiss. This does not seem to be the case with White. john k 19:29, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This guy, an official State Department/CIA historian, seems more convinced by the Venona stuff that White is guilty, but he doesn't seem to think that Craig's argument is beyond the pale, and generally seems to respect Craig's work, even while disagreeing with him. The Washington Post review reprinted on Amazon is much more negative, but I don't know anything about Ted Morgan. Some of the points, though, seem pretty specious. The Library Journal also gave what appears to be a favorable review, and there are quotes from various luminaries on the back praising the book. It seems to me that this suggests, at least, that there is still a legitimate dispute on the subject of White's guilt. john k 19:39, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This, by the way, seems to interpret Craig's book completely differently from Ted Morgan and the State Department/CIA guy, saying that Craig accepts that White was a spy. So now I'm confused. john k 19:46, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There will always be a legitimate dispute, seeing he was never tried and/or convicted. I have is no problem with referencing that within the Harry White article, but the more of those stale arguements you wish to site, then the more of the overwelhming evidence I would have to ask to insert within the article. This article has graduated from being a glorious bio page about a dead New Dealer (and that issue must be addressed, how FDR himself was betrayed by people he trusted) to an article that is going to be more related to the History of Soviet espionage in the United States. I'm really sceptical about the ability to rehabilitate this man's reputation. (Haven't finished reading the interpretive analysis you sent me, but will do) Nobs01 19:52, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Reading the Prologue to Treasonable Doubt I find this immediate distortion on pg. 4[3]:

What was the evidence that enabled Chambers and Bentley, in 1948, to declare Harry Dexter White a Soviet spy...

Chamber left espionage work in 1938 and I don't believe ever met White. White I don't believe was recruited into Soviet intelligence until 1941. Thus, they author seeks to draw upon the sympathies of those who have vilified Chambers credibility for 57 years now by suggesting Chambers was one of White's accusers. A distortion, reverting history back in the same manner as suggesting Joseph McCarthy was one of White's accusers in 1948. Source is prejudiced. Still reading. User:nobs01

Let me correct myself (I spoke to soon). Chambers did name White as member of the CPUSA he knew in 1938 (Chambers Testimony). However, he was never an accuser of White's espionage activities during the war since he had no knowledge of them because he defected from the group in 1938. Here is a relevent excerpt from August 3 1948 Testimony:

Mr. HEBERT. Was he considered as a source of information to the Communist cell?

Mr. CHAMBERS. No. I should perhaps make the point that these people were specifically not wanted to act as sources of information. These people were an elite group, an outstanding group, which it was, believed would rise to positions as, indeed, some of them did-notably, Mr. White and Mr. Hiss-in the Government...

The motives for a distorion are obvious, there is still a huge market to sell books to, to defend Hiss, etc. Nobs01 22:01, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

From the Truman Library Oral History Interview with Stephen J. Spingarn, President's Temp. Comm. on Employee Loyalty, 1946-47, see pgs 770-772 to get a good first hand account of the Truman White House dealing with this matter, good flavour of the personalities involved, attitude toward FBI bungling etc. Nobs01 01:20, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The author in footnote 2 you sent me yesterday Robert Louis Benson is the same author I quoted from the NAS Monograph National Security Archive so I hope we're back on the same song sheet. I'll make one more comment in FDR header bellow & leave it at that so as not to confuse the issues. I'm sorry for doing so. Nobs01 14:18, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

From RFC

The subject is clearly still being debated. I don't think it's appropriate to state in categorical terms that HDW was a spy. In fact, a cursory Google search turned up recent research casting doubt on the claims, even in light of what was contained in the Venona files: [4] · Katefan0^(scribble) 17:07, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)

• His daughters appear to still be denying it as well. From a letter to the editor in the Washington Times, which rebutted a review of the Craig book, issue date May 29 '04: Mr. Goulden does not soberly question the author's interpretation of evidence, counter his arguments or disagree with his conclusions. Still in the grip, it seems, of the anti-Communist rage of Cold War days, Mr. Goulden can only display his contempt for the man whose book he is reviewing. He says Mr. Craig "haggles over details," lectures him on the historical significance of the Comintern [Communist International], and dismisses his work as a "ploy by the academic left." In closing, he attacks Mr. Craig for his "dishonesty," "moral squalor," etc.

The truth is that Mr. Craig's book should be criticized, not because it tries to justify Harry Dexter White's supposed espionage, but because it accepts commission of espionage as a proven fact.

Harry White is safely dead and unable to confront those who libel him. But as his daughters, we wish to express our outrage at this renewed insult to his memory, to reaffirm his innocence and to declare our pride in his service to his country.

JOAN PINKHAM

Amherst, Mass.

RUTH LEVITAN

Stamford, Conn.

· Katefan0^(scribble) 17:28, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)

See the above discussion with john k regarding the prejudicial premise found on page 4 of the Prologue to Treasonable Doubt; that falls into the category of what historians call a conclusionary premise, pretending to reexamine a verdict from a starting point with the end is already in view. There will always be discussion in the absence of trial & conviction (hell, that still wouldn't stop some people). However, the factual evidence proves that the issues themselves were decided long before Joseph McCarthy & Herbert Brownell, Jr. ever discussed it. Venona was another nail in the coffin that wasn't even needed. White falls into the category of the guilty who have pretended to be McCarthyite victims (in his case, even while being dead). Venona files now give us the opportunity of separating the truelly guilty from the truelly innocent, whom McCarthy persecuted. To maintain the lie another 50 years, does not serve that end. Nobs01 17:43, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nobs, I respect your interest and readings on this particular topic, but we are not here to pass judgment on various theories or elevate ones above another per se. We are here to summarize pertinent and valid information, particularly when referring to items that are in dispute. This particular item is clearly in dispute, whether you agree personally with Craig's book or not. It deserves a mention in the article, especially since his family disputes the claim, though the amount of space dedicated to it should be commensurate with its status. · Katefan0^(scribble) 18:04, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)

It may be useful to refer to this bit from WP:NPOV: First, and most importantly, consider what it means to say that unbiased writing presents conflicting views without asserting them. Unbiased writing does not present only the most popular view; it does not assert the most popular view is correct after presenting all views; it does not assert that some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Presenting all points of view says, more or less, that p-ists believe that p, and q-ists believe that q, and that's where the debate stands at present. Ideally, presenting all points of view also gives a great deal of background on who believes that p and q and why, and which view is more popular (being careful not to associate popularity with correctness). · Katefan0^(scribble) 18:12, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)

Also, from WP:Wikiquette: Wikipedia articles are supposed to represent all views (more at NPOV). The Talk ("discussion") pages are not a place to debate value judgements about which of those views are right or wrong or better. If you want to do that, there are venues such as Usenet, public weblogs and other wikis. Use the Talk pages to discuss the accuracy/inaccuracy, POV bias, or other problems in the article, not as a soapbox for advocacy. Apologies for the amount of text, but these policies directly bear on my point. · Katefan0^(scribble) 18:17, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the surviving families sensitivities should be taken into account. Nobs01 18:20, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for adding that. I still think, though, that given that there is active and recent scholarship going on (regardless of whether you agree with Craig's book or not) seeking to disprove claims of White's having been a spy, that this information also needs to be included. · Katefan0^(scribble) 18:26, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)

Katefan: I truelly appreciate your help very much cause you impress me as an experienced editor. And I truelly mean that. What I wouldn't want to see happen in this article however, is the old sledge hammar being used to kill a fly. Even White's daughters appear to recognize the book in question can't refute the evidence, can only recyle half century old partisan arguements. Truthfully, this article is far from complete; the subject of White being on the trail of Nazi gold hasn't even been broached. The views of John Loftus, who formerly worked in the U.S._DOJ_Office_of_Special_Investigations Nazi hunting unit, and Stuart Eizenstat, who negotiated compensation for slave laborers during the Clinton administration I would consider extrememly valuable. Nobs01 19:01, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

FBI ID

Note on positive identification of White as agent jurist Wikisource:FBI_Memorandum_identifying_Harry_Dexter_White_as_agent_Jurist: To make the record complete, if necessary, I would be happy to "walk the dog backwards" within the text of the article, if requested or demanded, to articulate the multifold corroborative evidence accumulated over several years that led to the positve identification of White as "jurist". This could be done, I suspect, in 5 or 6 paragraphs. It should be noted, the positve identification of a deceased person is not taken lightly, and done with extreme caution in counterintelligence investigations, because if a mistake is made, a living person can continue operations under a mistaken indentification. Rather, I would prefer expand the article in the direction of White's pursuit of Nazi-gold and other stolen assets, which really is underreported his official biographies. (As a further note, Loftus's book has very interesting comments regarding Allen Dullas, Alger Hiss & Richard Nixon, and is strangely silent on Harry Dexter White, which, in itself, is telling. Hiss, who worked for Dullas in 1945, was identified by Nixon who at that time was in Naval Intelligence; Dullas appreciated Nixon allerting him to the danger of his suborndinate, and so was the beginning of a mutual relationship. Meanwhile, Nixon got out of the Navy, went back to California, got elected to Congress, went to Washington and continued working on the discovery he made while in Naval Intelligence regarding Hiss, and the rest is history, but that is for another place, I guess). Thank you. Nobs01 01:24, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

The IMF article we discussed earlier does not deny that White was Jurist - it says instead that what is known about Jurist is not enough to say that White was spying for the Soviets - that an interpretation which just has White being extremely indiscreet in discussions with Soviet agents is equally credible. I don't know that this is a plausible explanation, but I do know that this is not an argument which can be refuted by proving that White was Jurist. john k 03:37, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

NPOV and totallydisputed tags

These should not be removed until a consensus is reached that the NPOV and factual accuracy disputes that caused the tag to be placed are resolved. · Katefan0^(scribble) 14:17, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Again -- the tags should not be removed (or "downgraded") except by the person who originally placed them, or through a consensus of editors here on the talk page. · Katefan0^(scribble) 19:42, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, my screw up. nobs 19:48, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Nobs, it's no problem, thank you for being understanding and gracious. We're all learning our way around here -- after all, nobody's ever tried to do a project like Wikipedia before. · Katefan0^(scribble) 20:16, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Is there anybody who isn't okay with the removal of {{totallydisputed}}? · Katefan0^(scribble) 02:49, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Due to the interest in this article, I would propose any insertions by User: Coqsportif be properly sourced & cited. Thank you. nobs 22:20, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Stalin

Coqsportrif: interesting edits and thank you for your contribution. I removed two refereences to Stalin, cause they may be a little over the top which would probably need references. They are, "In truth, these idealistic beliefs were a mask for an agent of Stalin's Soviet Union. He remained an impassioned supporter of Stalin until his death." Also, I don't preesuppose we can get into Mr. White's head with the declaritive "In truth, these idealistic beleifs", etc. Perhaps we save the debate for Mr. White's love of Joseph Stalin for another day when more contributors may be interested. I would like to include the information about White pursuing stolen assets & Nazi gold, etc., which is very important and underreported. Thanks you. nobs 17:30, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

See [5]; and timestamp, I really did not have my glasses while I was attempting to manage this latest sockpupet vandal, and will no longer consider this editor in good faith. nobs 23:21, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Nobs, I am struggling to follow what your issue is here. I also don't get the neo-Nazi reference, I can assure you I am not one. Quite the reverse. I am just interested in getting to some sourced material about White, particularly his importance as a Soviet spy. He clearly was on the evidence, mind you it's important the article point out his denial and his family's continuing denial.

I don't have the answers but I think important questions the article should address:

• Was he a paid agent of the Soviet Union? I found a reference to the KGB wanting to pay his children's school fees but couldn't find much else.

• What were his political views? I think he was a supporter of Stalin but haven't found much to support it.

• Was his plan or what was called the Morgenthau Plan consistent with USSR policy? I have assumed so but would like to see more on that.

Coqsportif 23:31, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Ah, I see the problem now. What appeared to be scholarly and well-researched is the mad ravings of David Irving ites. That's bad. Very bad. I am not very comfortable with using them as a source although it did claim to be based on diaries, but given what else these people claim it is obviously not much use. I will remember that "revisionist" is code for Holocaust deniers et al. Aren't they sneaky? Coqsportif 00:07, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Allegations denied

Placed here for revision; good source, however there are prima facia factual inconsitencies that must be addressed.

Shortly before his death, over several days of intensive public examination on the issue White vehemently denied on oath ever being a Soviet spy. His family continue to protest his innocence. His defenders include publications issued by the International Monetary Fund which argued that his motives were unfairly impugned, and that such attacks "ranged from the questionable to the bizarre." They point to the credibility of his main accuser at the time, the now discredited Senator Joe McCarthy. They dispute that his unwillingness to facilitate Government approved loans to the Chinese Nationalist Government was an attempt to undermine it in favor of Mao Zedong. Rather they argue he was merely trying to hold them accountable for the expenditure of hundreds of millions of dollars. They say his plan to deindustrialize Germany was not part of a "grand design to create an economic vacuum in Europe to be exploited by the Soviet Union." His support for the Soviet Union, they argue, was in the context of a "wartime military alliance" against the Axis countries. [6]

nobs 00:50, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

In otherwords, Joseph McCarthy was not his "main accuser" "shortly before his death" in 1948, as stated here. nobs 00:52, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

I think it is ambiguous what "at the time" means in this case. McCarthy certainly was a main accuser of White shortly after White's death. john k 01:22, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

That depends if you consider 5 years "shortly". I think it is deliberately deceptive and discredits the source, seeing the context even refers to "vehemently denied on oath" etc., and McCarthy did not sit on the HUAC in 1948, nor for that matter ever served in the House. This is all in one paragraph. It can be fixed, because this is not what the original source material says. nobs 01:30, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

What about:

Prior to his death, after several days of intensive public examination on the question of whether he was an espionage agent for the Soviet Union, White denied the allegation repeatedly. His family continue to protest his innocence. His defenders include authors published by a journal of the International Monetary Fund which argued his motives were impugned unfairly. They point to the strength of feeling and over-zealousness of some of White's accusers such as Senator Joe McCarthy and point to his role in the creation of institutions like the IMF and World Bank whose objectives include the promotion of capitalism.

I think putting the counter view would be helpful at the end of the article to put it in context. He is clearly a spy but his denial is an importatnt part of his story. Coqsportif 12:45, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

You have to deal with this simple question in English: Under a Sub-head entitled "Allegations denied", you are stating (1) Joseph McCarthy accused a dead man. (2) the dead man denied the allegations from the grave. Clearly we can do better for Wikipedia than this disguised recycled POV. nobs 15:45, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw:Are we really gonna keep the ihr site, cause there is better primary source and secondary source available. Thanks. nobs 19:20, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

It's not an "IHR site" so much as a Kubek paper. Can you tell me if Kubek's other work, his introduciton, is used as a source for any material? If so, then he is regarded as a reliable source. -Willmcw 19:58, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Significance of Venona

Please note, the materials just inserted (or the subject of those materials) is directly related to this article Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Significance of Venona, seeing that Harry Dexter White's active assistance in the subversion of FDR's policy of support for Nationalist China is what brought the present day non-democratic CCP to power, a nation that is expected as a hegemon to overtake the United States in GDP, military strength etc, before the year 2030. Recent estimates have moved that date up somewhat. So there is more than just an historical or revisionist aspect to these articles. Thank you. nobs 02:22, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

What evidence to we have for this "active subversion"? In what way was he personally, and intentionally, responsible for delaying the loan to China? Thanks, -Willmcw 06:19, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

I've been working on that for several months, but these incessant edit wars keep taking up too much time. Definitive text probably will have to wait til issues on other pages are settled. But what keeps happening in this article are continutiy breaks, as now with the IMF section, he keeps getting resurrected after he's dead. nobs 19:12, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Hmm. Are you sure that whatever you're "working on" wouldn't be considered original research? · Katefan0^(scribble) 19:26, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

I am referring to presenting the case with all proper citations, and budgeting the time to deal with potential challenges. Thank you. nobs 19:31, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, if you're working on it then let's remove it until you have supporting info. Now there is a strong innuendo that White intentionally undercut the Nationalists in order to help their Communist opponents. -Willmcw 19:56, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

(Just wanted to note that during World War II, the Soviets were basically supporting he Nationalist government. So I find it hard to understand how someone like White, who, whatever his status as a Soviet spy, does not seem to have been a Communist, would be going beyond actual Soviet policy in his efforts to help the CCP. john k 20:17, 12 August 2005 (UTC))

I have no objection to removing it for now; there are other questions dealing export licences etc., beside the activities of the Bureau of Monetary Research under Harry White during World War II. And I'd just as soon deal with all the economic issues at one time. Thank you. nobs 20:21, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Currency plates

Interesting question; excess currency printed on real plates. So it was half-counterfeit, though the paper & ink was somewhat different from original. It's always been a difficult subject to explain.nobs 04:55, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

The article implies that the effort by White was unauthorized and that he gave the plates to the Soviets secretly. Is that also true? -Willmcw 06:17, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

The transfer of the stolen plates effectively amounted to this (1) the American taxpayer paid the salaries of Soviet Occupation troops (2) it economically, socially, and politically destabilized the Joint Occupation Zone leading to the Berlin Crisis. This was a well thoughtout strategy that originated in Moscow. Those complicit in Washington only followed instructions. nobs 18:44, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

No it wasn't secret, but it was secret that they were printing vastly excessive amounts of currency and intending to use it to promote the spread of communism in Europe. Coqsportif 12:37, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

If he was doing his job than it is unremarkable. -Willmcw 19:54, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

I'd just note that I have never read a single account of postwar Germany which mentions this issue at all is a particularly important cause of economic, social, and political destabilization of Germany. It seems likely that, given the results of the war, there would have been an incredible amount of economic, social, and political destabilization anyway. I'm also confused - as occupying authorities, didn't the Soviets have the right to print currency, anyway? What exactly is the accusation here? john k 20:19, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Unremarkable? It was a bigger theft than that Brazillian one the other day. Leaving aside the morality of what he did, I wonder whether there's been a secret agent more effective than White ever? He is little known compared with Philby etc. and I think did so much more damage. And John, I think Nobs know more of this but they were printing currency that the US was effectively issuing and therefore obliged to redeem, the Soviets weren't printing their own currency they were printing ours and as we all would kept the printing presses running day and night thanks to Mr White. Regarding the destabilization, the currency was used to destabilize the emergence of democracy in East Europe, something I'm sure you'd agree the Soviets did very well at in the 1940's and after. Coqsportif 20:26, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

john: Here is the most recent declassified information available [7] (PDF format pgs. 681-702), released in May 2003, Executive Session Hearings of the Permanent Subcommittee on Government Operations (pgs. 3403-3424 in original). The Editor's introduction is written by a present day Senate staffer, and the material is released through joint efforts of Sen. Susan Collins & Sen. Joe Lieberman; editor's intro excerpted as follows,

"In 1945, Elizabeth Bentley (1908-1963) told the FBI that during World War II she had served as a courier between Soviet agents and a Communist cell in Washington headed by Nathan Gregory Silvermaster and William Ullman. They provided information passed along from a group of government officials, and although Bentley had not met them all, she identified Treasury Department officials Harry Dexter White, V. Frank Coe, and William H. Taylor as part of the group. To handle the volume of material passing through the group, Ullman, who lived in Silvermaster's house, had set up a darkroom in the basement to photograph the documents rather than copy them by hand. Some of the individuals whom Bentley identified were mentioned in the KGB cables intercepted and deciphered by the Venona project, although William H. Taylor's name was not among them.

"Alvin W. Hall, director of the Bureau of Engraving and Printing, testified in public session on October 20, 1953. Although discussed at that hearing, William H. Taylor did not testify in public.

I place it here to give you a flavor of the issues involved. nobs 21:10, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Elizabeth Bentley's testimony follows, a short page or two, that may be worth reading as well. nobs 21:18, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Reads like a spy thriller. I cannot believe we were that stupid. A plane "crashed" so we sent more equipment so they could print U.S. currency. Truth is indeed stranger than fiction. Thanks for the link Nobs, very interesting. 203.82.183.147 21:51, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Reading (well, skimming) over the McCarthy hearings from 1953, it appears that the transfer of the currency plates, etc, was a policy decision which was discussed and approved in a normal manner. It was neither secret (well, just normal wartime secrecy), nor explictly illegal. It may have been a bad policy, and it may have been strongly influenced by White, who in turn may have been pressured by the Russians, but I don't see how it can be called "theft". BTW, is Bentley's testimony considered fully trustworthy? Also, are plane "crashes" in wartime so rare? Did the cabal kill Carole Lombard and Glenn Miller? -Willmcw 22:11, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

The theft was done by the Russians, facilitated by White pushing the idea through. Coqsportif 22:23, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

"It was neither secret nor explictly illegal." (I suggest you do a little research before shooting from the hip like that). nobs 19:38, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

The transfer of the currency plates exposed the United States Treasury to a huge liability; the Executive does not have the Constitutional power to contract a debt on behalf of the Untied States govenment. Not even the President has such authority. nobs 19:53, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Was it a secret from Morgenthau? What law was broken? Is there a U.S. law the bars the transfer of the printing plates of occupation currencies? Thanks, -Willmcw 01:25, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

More currency manipulation

Editor's introduction written by a present day Senate staffer, "AUSTRIAN INCIDENT" [8] (PDF format pgs. 443 - 467) pgs. 1349-1372 in original

(Note: Sen. Scoop Jackson asks the tough questions and developes a clearer picture), excerpted introduction:

"On May 29, 1953, the subcommittee heard testimony from two former Economic Cooperation officials in Austria, Clyde King and Gabriel Kerekes, that the high exchange rate for Austrian currency in 1949 had worked against that nation’s financial stability and in favor of the Russian occupation forces. Objections to their efforts to devalue the currency had come from the International Monetary Fund, whose secretary was V. Frank Coe (1907–1980). In 1948, Elizabeth Bentley had identified Coe as a member of Nathan Silvermaster’s Communist cell in Washington. Coe, who had previously directed monetary research at the Department of Treasury, asked to appear before the House Un-American Activities Committee, where he denied under oath the allegations made against him. In a campaign speech on October 27, 1952, Senator McCarthy had declared Democratic candidate Adlai Stevenson unfit to serve as president because of his past associations. Specifically, he charged that Alger Hiss and Frank Coe had recommended Stevenson as a delegate to an Institute for Pacific Relations conference ten years earlier. ‘‘Frank Coe was the man [named] under oath before Congressional committees seven times as a member of the Communist party. Why, why do Hiss and Coe find that Adlai Stevenson is the man they want representing them at this conference? I don’t know, perhaps Adlai knows.’’ The Democratic National Committee responded by pointing out that Stevenson had not been a delegate to the conference.

"That December, when the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee called Coe to testify, he refused to answer any questions about Communist affiliation or espionage. After his testimony, the IMF requested his resignation. Following his executive session testimony before the subcommittee, Coe testified in public session on June 5 and June 8, 1953. In a written statement submitted to the subcommittee he denied having participated ‘‘in any orders or requests or suggestions which may have been given in November 1949 relating to devaluation of the Austrian currency and the negotiations connected therewith.’’ The later opening of the KGB archives confirmed that Coe had provided material to Soviet intelligence agents. In 1958, Coe moved to the People’s Republic of China, where he engaged in translating the writings of Mao Tse-tung into English. nobs 16:14, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Venona #83

Harry Dexteer White tells Greg Silvermaster how to get $6 Billion from the United States at a better interest rate. 83 New York to Moscow 18 January 1945 nobs 03:16, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I thought White was Jurist? That link doesn't refer to Jurist at all. john k 05:20, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Ah, so White was "Richard," as well? At any rate, this is such a vague reference that I don't see how it disproves the IMF "White was a moron who was too loose in talking to Soviets and Soviet agents" version. john k 05:32, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

This is the problem inherent in trying to insert our own analyses of primary source documents on Wikipedia. Sometimes people might disagree. It's really better to summarize other published sources on this stuff instead of drawing our own conclusions. I fear that Nobs' Venona stuff is stepping over the line into original research (with all due respect, Nobs). I don't know anything about this stuff, but when I see comments like these from John it makes me concerned. · Katefan0^(scribble) 13:01, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

I am afraid that in this discussion, we see time and time again, efforts by editors to draw conclusions. I am placing materials here, and it is only a fraction of the materials available, simply to draw interested editors attention to the issues involved. It is absolutley pointless to attempt to draw any conclusions from these materials (we see above for example, confusion over codenames, a discussion of which has been gone into in depth on other pages, and evidently may need to be cut and pasted 168 times, into 168 different articles, seeing this issue was raised once again). But an examination of the evidence, for interested editors, is necessary, to speak with any knowledge on the subject, seeing the the rash of disinfomation sources had a 50 year head start to circulate, unchecked, without refutation. nobs 15:04, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Nobs, if editors are indeed, drawing conclusions, among their number is surely you. Some of your comments do seem to be disinterested references to primary sources, but then you also go out of your way to draw possibly unwarranted conclusions, like "Please note, the materials just inserted (or the subject of those materials) is directly related to this article Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Significance of Venona, seeing that Harry Dexter White's active assistance in the subversion of FDR's policy of support for Nationalist China is what brought the present day non-democratic CCP to power." I think you will be hard-pressed to find a historian of China who believes that the "non-democratic" CCP (the KMT, I assume was a beacon of democracy and freedom) was brought to power because of the efforts of communist spies in the American government. john k 15:13, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, and I apologize in advance if this sounds harsh Nobs, but I was really referring to you, not John. What I was getting at was that your additions seem to rely a lot on your interpretations of these Venona materials, and the question raised by John was concerning insofar as it implies that the conclusions you're drawing, Nobs, are contested. I really feel like we need to stick to secondary published sources here, not primary source documents. And, again, respectfully, we aren't here to refute a "rash of disinformation sources." Wikipedia articles summarize published sources, including debates over information where pertinent, but we aren't here to find the "truth." That's something more appropriate for a personal blog. · Katefan0^(scribble) 15:17, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

john: you will note, it is not an insertion into the main article, nor an attempt to do so; it is simply drawing attention to a continuing relevency of the subject, in response to questions of why all the interest in what appears to be dead issues.

Please see Talk:VENONA_project#Proceedural_proposal; this is part of an effort which may take several years, drawn from the basic sources (excerpted from above proposal):

• the unanimous findings of the bipartisan Moynihan Commission on Government Secrecy Report,
• the National Security Agency Archives, Custodian of documents for the Army Signals Intelligence,
• the Official History of Counterintelligence in the United States of the Office of the National Counterintelligence Executive [9]
• the Archivist of the United States
• the Library of Congress Manuscripts Division

Many of the above published findings of the 38 year National Security Agency/Federal Bureau of Investigation into espionage are not paranoid conspiracy theories of yesteryore, they are the published findings of the United States Government. If a cooperative editor is interested in participating, I would be interesting in hearing. Thank you. nobs 15:30, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Primary sources are all well and good, but if you (or anyone) are using them to draw unsubstantiated conclusions, that's where it becomes a problem. · Katefan0^(scribble) 15:38, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Export Control statutes

More of the "flavor" of issues involved, Introduction extracted from PSI hearings. authored by present day Senate staff in bipartisan release effort. [10] PDF format pgsa. 450-495 (pgs. 411-456 in original)

VIOLATION OF EXPORT CONTROL STATUTES

[EDITOR’S NOTE.—In 1950, the subcommittee had held hearings on ‘‘Perversion in Government,’’ acting on the premise that homosexuals were vulnerable to blackmail that might coerce them into espionage. Early in 1953, it collected information on alleged homosexuals who had served in the government, but held only this executive session on the subject and no subsequent public hearings.

Eric L. Kohler (1892–1976), a CPA, had served as controller of the Tennessee Valley Authority, 1938 to 1941, on the staff of the Office of Emergency Management and War Production Board, 1941 to 1942, as executive officer of the Petroleum Administration for War, 1942 to 1944, financial advisor to the secretary of agriculture in 1946, and as controller of the Economic Corporation Association, 1948 to 1949.

One of the nation’s most prominent accountants, he was president of the American Accounting Association, edited the Accounting Review, taught as a visiting professor at several universities and published Kohler’s Dictionary for Accountants. He did not testify in public.] nobs 15:58, 15 August 2005 (UTC)