Talk:Linux/Referring to this article

This page is discussing the nature of link text in other articles that are referring to and linking to this article. In other words, it discussing how the operating systems made out of the combined GNU system and Linux kernel should be referred in other articles in Wikipedia. It is not about the name of the Linux article. Those conversations should be had on Talk:Linux directly until a better place can be found.

Summary of Arguments

Common ground and things everyone agrees on:

1. "Linux" is the most commonly-used name for the operating system although many other terms are also used including "GNU/Linux" and "Linux distribution." While the terms are often used interchangeably, many experts insist on a particular term.
2. The term "Linux" originally referred only to the Linux kernel but is now commonly used to refer to operating systems that use the kernel in addition to other purposes.
3. The name of the operating system is a subject of active and protracted debate in the free and open source software community.
4. Using only one term for the name of the operating system annoys some contributors and dissuades them from editing.

Arguments in favor of using Linux:

1. Wikipedia's articles should not be written from the point of view of their subjects. Therefore, even where an article's subject uses the name "GNU/Linux" to refer to the operating system, Wikipedia should not preserve the use of this name as the general name of the operating system in such articles, except where it forms part of a proper name (such as Debian GNU/Linux).
2. From a historical perspective, the scope of the kernel and those layers above it which are Linux-specific and of non-GNU origin exactly matches that traditionally defined as being an "operating system". Other systems with a similar scope, such as MINIX, which may also be distributed with GNU utilities and libraries, are not subject to the demanded naming convention.

Arguments in favor of using GNU/Linux:

1. "Linux" is inaccurate because Linux more correctly refers to the Linux kernel. Wikipedia should use of the name "GNU/Linux" because it is more accurate.
2. Using the term GNU gives adequate credit to the GNU project which produced a large number of the core userspace utilities installed on all systems called Linux.

Arguments in favor of enforcing consistency in reference (i.e., in favor of either Linux or GNU/Linux but not both):

1. Wikipedia should be internally consistent.

Arguments in favor of not enforcing consistency in reference:

1. This issue is akin to the differences between British and American English or the AD/BC or Gdansk/Danzig controversies and should be subject to similar conclusions that do not enforce full consistency on either term. Articles should be internally consistent and written by neutral sources but should be described using whatever term is most relevant or appropriate given the nature of the article subject and third-party references to it.
2. The cost of continued debate on this issue outweighs the benefits of completely consistency within Wikipedia.
3. Any confusion from use of either term could be offset with short explanatory text applied as a style guideline.

Responses

Each response below corresponds to an argument above. Please try to preserve this structure or add to or rearrange if the structure breaks.

Response to arguments in favor of Linux:

1. Some distributions like gNewSense are referred to almost universally as "GNU/Linux." A neutral observer could base a decision to use the term "GNU/Linux" in the article on gNewSense on evidence other than a desire to write an article from the point of view of the article subject.
2. The scope of this article extends beyond this historical definition to indisputably use a more high-level definition of "operating system".

Response to arguments to use GNU/Linux:

1. Wikipedia is not a defender of the truth. The accuracy of such claims is sufficiently disputed that we cannot and should not present them as factual.
2. Our policies allow for the reporting of such opinions, but they also demand that we refrain from advocating minority positions in the absence of an agreed body which would lend them authority.

Response to arguments to enforce consistency:

1. While consistency within an article extremely important, consistency throughout Wikipedia is eschewed in areas where there are multiple correct answers including British and US English, AD/BC and CE/BCE, Gdansk and Danzig, and others.

Response to arguments to not enforce consistency:

1. The dual use of UK and US English is primarily a compromise to allow two very similar languages to share one domain, and as such is really a technical hack. Unlike that situation, which is a matter of two undisputed positions which both have authoritative bodies behind them, there is an obvious component of prescription in the use of the terms here.

Proposed remedies

The follow remedies and paths forward have been proposed and are being considered.

Consistency on Linux

Wikipedia should not use the construction "GNU/Linux" in any cases except where it is included in the proper name of the distribution (e.g., Debian GNU/Linux). In these cases, the text of the article should describe Debian as "Linux."

Consistency only within articles

Articles should be consistent in their terminology and should not be written from the point of view of their subject but may employ either term when neutral editors feel that it is appropriate given the subject of the article and a close relationship to the GNU project or important community identification of the project as a GNU/Linux distribution.

Employ explanatory text

In articles referring to products described as either "Linux" or "GNU/Linux," editors should employ agreed upon text to accurately describe the relationship between GNU/Linux and where relevant to point out the naming controversy. This can be either in the text of articles linking or at the source of links on pages including Linux distribution and Linux. This might include raising the profile of such discussion which is already present in both articles and linking to the GNU/Linux naming controversy article.

Add clarification to the top of relevant articles

Add a note at the top of the article linked to by GNU/Linux and Linux saying that in Wikipedia, the two terms (unless the latter is clarified to mean the kernel) mean the same operating system.

Note: there is a note currently at the top of the article, but it contains no mention of "GNU".

Consistency on GNU/Linux

Describing what is not part of the kernel as "Linux" creates confusion and is highly misleading. The term "GNU/Linux" should be used to refer to amalgamations of the GNU operating system and the Linux kernel.

No prescribed solution

Editors should feel free to make use of whichever term they choose to refer to the OS.

Note: this has been the norm in Wikipedia articles until now.

Discussion

I've just put up a first draft of everything above. It's a first stab at trying to summarize the arguments made, the responses, and the concrete proposals. Please feel free to edit this. We can discuss controversial edits. —mako๛ 16:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Authorities at odds: so the market decides

With proprietary products then the manufacturer (lawyers) maintain consistent product naming. With GNU or Linux, there are few authorities who could help us arbitrate. The FSF offers "GNU/Linux" and the FSF only considers the "Linux" part to be the kernel (which we would expect). As a product that uses the license mark "Linux", I'm curious if the FSF have sublicensed that wording anyway [1] but that's an aside. With the word "Linux" then the license holders (The Linux Mark in the Linux Foundation) clearly consider the "Linux" to be bigger than just-a-kernel if you look at their website. These two authorities are at odds with each other and so can't be relied on for guidance. Authority falls back to what the majority in the marketplace uses. We know the answer as it is easier to just say Linux rather than GNU + Linux in any language. Ttiotsw (talk) 21:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

So if authorities and the marketplace for gNewSense, Debian Ututo seemed to imply that GNU/Linux was more appropriate and more widely used, would you support that naming in those articles? —mako๛ 21:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

If only it was that clear but it isn't that way. Google still shows that gNewSense with Linux outnumbers gNewSense with GNU/Linux. UTUTO does a lot better though GNU/Linux still outnumbered. Inside the articles then the wording is whatever the consensus but given they are very much Free without non-free and the distro sites themselves use GNU/Linux then GNU/Linux is a logical description even if it goes against the market view. We can't do the same for "Linux" article though. In the end we're arguing for "Linux" the product as it is promoted by all and sundry verses "GNU/Linux" the ideology as argued by FSF. Whooosh - that goes over most people's heads along with Microsoft EULA, the GPL/LGPL and any other flavour click licences. Ttiotsw (talk) 01:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I am not trying to argue that "GNU/Linux" is more popular than Linux; it's not. I'm not trying to talk about the Linux article name; after all, that's why I created this page in the first place. I'm trying to understand the arguments being made and positions being taken. If authorities and the marketplace seemed to imply than GNU/Linux was more appropriate (we can argue later about whether this is the case in particular situations), would you support that naming in those articles? —mako๛ 02:51, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I would have to else I would just be pushing a minority POV. Ttiotsw (talk) 11:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Good. Chris (and possibly Gronky) seems to have argued that consistency throughout Wikipedia on this issue is important enough to trump this. I'm just trying to find out where other people sit. —mako๛ 18:56, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think consistency trumps allowing "GNU/". I think consistently using "GNU/Linux" is the optimal outcome, but unless there is clear consensus for consistently using either term (which I think is very unlikely, this year), then a "consistency" policy, no matter which term is chosen, would not be appropriate. My reason for this is that even if there emerges a slight preference for the use of "GNU/Linux", I don't think it would be good for Wikipedia to make a hostile policy towards the large "Linux" minority. I disagree with the "Linux" people, but I wouldn't want them to feel less welcome. Wikipedia thrives on having a massive community of editors, and that's more important than consistency (even if it was consistency for "GNU/Linux"). --Gronky (talk) 08:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm touched by your hypothetical magnanimity. Hypothetically, I would be more than happy to accept "GNU/Linux everywhere" as the conclusion, were it not for all the reasons why this is the wrong call. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The market decides?? Then we would name things according to the wishes of the company that puts the most money to advertise its "trademark". Linux is only the kernel. Period. That some companies choose to use the name linux for the entire OS, does not change the fact that linux is only the kernel. Because some companies say so wikipedia has to bend to their marketing wishes and follow their naming rules? The use of the name GNU/Linux to describe the OS that uses the GNU system the linux kernel cannot be forbidden or removed from articles as has been done and it is being attempted by some users to push their own point of view which is in fact, as clearly said above, the point of view of companies that sell the OS as "linux".--Grandscribe (talk) 22:05, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

If some are so keen on letting the market decide why are some so keen on *enforcing* consistency here at WP? Surely, then, the "market" of editors here will arrive at some position with which all will be happy? Perhaps, but then we must guard against the brute force mass "market" manipulation of WP (which in the financial and commodity free markets around the the world is illegal) where someone just decides WTF let's change all occurrences of X to Y. Paul Beardsell (talk) 00:10, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

And! The authorities are not really quite so much at odds, day to day, as we portray. The various terms in use (Linux distribution, GNU/Linux, Linux kernel, and even the bareword "Linux") are all understood perfectly well by all the authorities and any disambiguation necessary is done naturally (either explicitly or by context) by the authorities when they communicate amongst themselves or when they deign to communicate with us. Where the problem lies is in the readership of this WP. Our purpose here at WP it is *not* to promote some FSF or anti-FSF agenda: It is to represent the state of knowledge. Not of the man in the street (because their state of knowledge on these issues is poor) but of the authorities. Anyone who *insists* on consistency where none is possible because these terms are all nuanced is really dumbing down WP. The woman in the street (or at home, if those plebs have houses) needs to be able to find out the knowledge we have set ourselves up as guardians of. Just how arrogant is it for any *one* of us here to decide on imposing consistency accross the whole of WP in the midst of controversy? Paul Beardsell (talk) 00:10, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

So: Let the article *authors* decide whether they want to write "Linux" or "GNU/Linux" or "Linux kernel". They will automatically be disambiguating explicitly or by context. Should they fail to do so then edit the article and provide the disambiguation. It is not useful to mass-edit "GNU/Linux" to "Linux" because without carefully reading the context you cannot be sure of providing disambiguation which may now be required. To change "GNU/Linux" to "Linux o/s" or "Linux distribution" without careful thought is also not appropriate - the author may be referring specifically to a GNU aspect. Also the reverse is not correct - as not all Linux operating systems (i.e. those that contain the kernel called Linux) have much GNU in them. Paul Beardsell (talk) 00:10, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Those insisting on imposing consistency are reducing the quality of WP. Paul Beardsell (talk) 00:10, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Having decided that, the next step is to make the article Linux a disambiguation page. Paul Beardsell (talk) 00:10, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Paul Beardsell. Linux should be a disambiguation page. I also think we should stop immediately to redirect GNU/linux to "linux". GNU/linux should direct to an article about the GNU system when it uses the linux kernel. Or it should direct just to GNU because an article with such a title would mainly describe the GNU system. --Grandscribe (talk) 05:20, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I added some more suggestions to the proposed remedies--Grandscribe (talk) 05:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

It's political not ontological

The name of this subpage and the opening paragraph I do not find helpful. Worse, they are at odds! They serve merely to continue to muddy the water.

How does one refer to anything? By using its name. When we "refer to this article" we use its name! You've got to decide: Are you referring to this article or to the various things which have the word Linux in their name?

The question as to how we refer to the things with Linux in their name or which contain Linux (the operating system kernel) is political not ontological. We need to reflect the controversy here at WP, it is not for us to gloss over it (for someone's misplaced sense of neatness) or to resolve it (to satisfy someone's RMS-bias). That is why we need to leave the article authors alone and also to make the article Linux a disambiguation page.

Paul Beardsell (talk) 00:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

The waters are very muddy already. This page is trying to to help move toward consensus on one part of the complicated issue: What term or terms should Wikipedia articles other than Linux use when referring to the operating system composed of GNU, a Linux Kernel, and other necessary pieces? That's what I tried to convey in the title and first paragraph. If that's unclear, please edit it or rename it for clarity. For what's it is worth, I think I agree with both of your suggestions. However, I think the former is more likely than the latter and I would like to handle each issue separately. —mako๛ 01:23, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

There is one thing we should do soon. We should stop the redirection of GNU/linux to Linux. GNU/linux should direct to a page about the GNU system that uses the kernel linux. Linux should be a page only about the kernel because that is what it is: a kernel. To do otherwise is to create and maintain confusion.--Grandscribe (talk) 05:10, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I too would like to have Linux being the article about the kernel *but* the WP guidelines are plain: That slot in the namespace needs to be a disambiguation page. Paul Beardsell (talk) 12:25, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Even Gronky doesn't agree that GNU/Linux should point to a different article from Linux, which makes this a very unpopular proposal indeed. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 17:14, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Popularity isn't everything. With three votes you've considered yourself entitled to brute force edit the whole encyclopedia, destroying meaning in the process. Paul Beardsell (talk) 07:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I didn't go by "votes", I went by the consensus generated by discussion. It's also plainly contradictory to argue that I can't edit things because they only got a few "votes" despite a firm rhetorical backing, yet your position's arguments are strong enough that it should be implemented despite its undisputed minority status. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:16, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

And who judges that this position is clearly rhetorically firm? When I look at the many wikipedians who disagree with you, I don't see worthless contributors to be ignored. This isn't a vote, but one does have to question the strength of your arguments that have convinced so few wikipedians. --Gronky (talk) 08:30, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Chris, this is the same mistake, made again. The arguments I am forwarding do not have minority status - they are plain WP policy. That you say this would afford a "minority" term with WP:UNDUE weight is your argument, that I say this consideration is not a trump card and that there are plenty(!) of strongly worded caveats and riders quoted throughout other guidelines (and that same guideline) against what you say, is my argument. What we should both want is a better encyclopedia. What my view on the "correct" use of the term is, and what your view is, should be irrelevant. Paul Beardsell (talk) 08:36, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I'd support making "Linux" point to the kernel and making "GNU/Linux" the name of the operating system article. To Paul's suggestion that "Linux" has to be a disambig: couldn't it be the kernel article and just put a disambig sentence at the top? --Gronky (talk) 08:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

To explicitly make your point: Chris wouldn't like that as it imposes a POV in *exactly* the same way he has come close to succeeding to impose his POV. But that would make Chris as unhappy as you are now. For some strange reason (I seem to be wavering in my resolve on this point) I am keen Chris is able to live with what we do here. Paul Beardsell (talk) 08:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Keeping the "Linux" people involved in Wikipedia is a worthy goal - I defend this too in my comment above (which starts with "I don't think consistency trumps"). Building a massive (diverse) contributor base is very important for Wikipedia's quality in the long term. --Gronky (talk) 09:30, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no, that's not what I would object to: Putting the kernel at Linux is not imposing a point of view. What it is doing is inconveniencing a majority of readers for the sake of a rather questionable purity. Having Linux be a disambig page is also, in itself, not imposition of POV - but again, it's disruptive. What would be POV would be putting the OS article at GNU/Linux, which an explicit attempt to have WP endorse the FSF's terminology. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

So, you're saying that Wikipedia should adopt your policy because it's already been implemented (pre-emptively by you), and because fixing masses of links is too much work (despite you proving this wrong last Summer). --Gronky (talk) 10:21, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Please be honest here. At the time that I started changing links, I believed (based on previous discussion) that the issue was settled. I did not pre-empt discussion by changing the links. Furthermore, when challenged on this change it was me who initiated formal discussion on it. This characterisation of my actions as underhanded is pretty ridiculous. As for the quantity of changes, as I've pointed out there was at least an order of magnitude's difference in the number of links to each article at the time; making those changes was definitely the path of least resistance, whereas doing it the other way around would have been a great deal more work. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Chris, I don't see how you get all that out of what Gronky wrote! But most of the Linux links to which you refer would have been disambiguated by context. At least some of the GNU/Linux links you changed to Linux would have relied on the GNU to provide the context. That is why some of your edits would have been destructive. The article authors need to be trusted. We should neither gloss over the controversy for political reasons, nor should we do so for reasons of specious neatness. However you sit, politically or consistently, I don't like it. Paul Beardsell (talk) 10:54, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

But they really don't. I really think you should examine some of the situations where this was changed. In any case where there was ambiguity (for instance, basically any trivial application which can be compiled with GCC will work across multiple platforms), I changed the wording of any inclusion to say "cross-platform" or "on a variety of free software platforms" or (in the case of one user who insisted on the GNU component being noted "on any glibc-compatible platform". I didn't just robotically change "GNU/Linux" to "Linux" across every article without looking. There is an argument that platforms such as gNewSense are "intrinsically GNU" and so need the mention, but this is (as far as WP is concerned) merely the opinion of the subject. Take a look at the wording at the start of Debian. It makes clear that the project has a wider scope than Linux, but still definitively states that "Debian GNU/Linux is a Linux distribution" because "Linux distribution" is the idiom used to describe that thing that Debian GNU/Linux is. I don't have a problem with "trusting" article authors where they aren't editing for the sake of personal opinion. The original rewording of the gNewSense into to reflect the more pro-FSF position ("gNewSense is a distribution of the GNU operating system on the Linux kernel" or such) was done by the FSF's webmaster. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:24, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The question as to how we refer to the things with Linux in their name or which contain Linux (the operating system kernel) is political not ontological. We need to reflect the controversy here at WP, it is not for us to gloss over it (for someone's misplaced sense of neatness) or to resolve it (to satisfy someone's RMS-bias). That is why we need to leave the article authors alone and also to make the article Linux a disambiguation page. Paul Beardsell (talk) 08:42, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Paul you're doing good efforts to try to make this move on. Just a couple of questions. Shouldn't there be an article titled the "GNU/linux" operating system not just a redirection to this page? As Gronky said indeed this article is about the GNU/linux OS. What he says makes sense, to rename this to GNU/linux. Doesn't the proposed disambiguation point back just to linux biased pages?--Grandscribe (talk) 09:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, why not? But not to the exclusion of an article named "Linux operating system", or similar. Paul Beardsell (talk) 10:10, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The best way to reflect the controversy is to make not of it. It is not to disrupt the project by forcing primary topics to live in disambiguated pages. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

No, but the approach you propose is not taken universally at WP and there are guidelines as to when to choose one over the other. WP:UNDUE has been quoted on "your" side, and a number of caveats and riders, some strongly worded, are quoted by "my" side. Paul Beardsell (talk) 10:10, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer Paul. As you said a solution that does not exclude linux but neither GNU has to be found. The apparent "solution" that has been given by some to just add a few lines of text about GNU as a naming controversy(with dismissive remarks) at the beginning or end of an article using the name linux for GNU software (which is not part of the kernel) would not be acceptable. Wikipedia originally had an article titled GNU/Linux. Then someone redirected it to this page. The GNU/Linux page would have to be restored and one part of the solution would be not to force editors to link to the linux page when he/she wants to link to the GNU/Linux page where the focus would be description of the GNU system. The moment he/she would like to give detailed information about the kernel then he/she could point to the appropriate linux kernel page.--Grandscribe (talk) 11:02, 27 May 2008 (UTC)