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October 17

Elbot

I asked Elbot to tell me a joke and it said, "A byte went to main memory and said "C3". Main memory thought a moment and replied: "08 B1 0D FF"!" Does this make sense? Could someone explain it to me? Nadando (talk) 00:20, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

At first glance, it looks like it was trying to tell a joke using hexadecimal but converting those values from hex to decimal doesn't make any sense to me. C3 is 195 and 08 B1 0D FF is 552725434623. Dismas|^(talk) 03:20, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

It may have been a reference to the hoary old joke about the group of people who felt that life was too short to repeat jokes, so they decided to number them, and just say the number. The first person said "16", and got a good reception. The next person said "47", and everyone laughed uproariously. The third person said "31", but this time everyone just stared blankly. He asked "What did I do wrong? They all laughed at the other ones". Someone else said "It's all in the way you tell it".  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 05:54, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Alternative punchline: The third person said "98", and everyone collapsed in absolute hysterics. He looked puzzled, and someone told him, "Well, we've never heard that one before!" AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 07:50, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear, you've failed the robot's Turing test! Soon we'll all be doing the menial computations they can't be bothered with. ;-) Dmcq (talk) 10:36, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

At first glance I thought, "Oh! 8080 humor!", since C3 is the "Jump" command on the 8080 architecture. But the rest is just nonsense in that dialect. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 12:03, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

The joke is that the computer is telling a joke that only the computer would get. The funny bit is not that you are supposed to translate the joke to understand it. The funny bit is SUPPOSED to be in the process of telling. Its not supposed to be taken literally that what he says makes sense. Lots of commedians have gotten laughs "pretending" to speak a foreign language, when all they say is gibberish. This is no different. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 15:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, yeah. But I still considered it for a moment. Years of assembly language programming wired all sorts of opcodes in my head. 00: C3 00 00 --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 17:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Elbot is weird. He insists that 2+7 = 10. ~AH1^(TCU) 20:33, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Clearly wrong. Everyone knows that 2 + 7 = 11. --Carnildo (talk) 21:17, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Distance from nucleus: d or s orbitals

Moved to Science Reference Desk for better attention. See here. Franamax (talk) 05:58, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Video games

Do they sell video games in Hawaii? 58.165.17.100 (talk) 02:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why not. What leads you to believe otherwise? Acceptable (talk) 02:12, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I have never heard anyone play video games there. 58.165.17.100 (talk) 02:26, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they sell video games in Hawaii. Duh. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 03:34, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Toys n' Joys has a couple of locations on Oahu, one in Honolulu and appear to have a wide range of product. Google them. Darkspots (talk) 09:02, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Not only do they sell them, they develop them as well [1] [2]. Heck if you consider PSP games video games, they even play them on buses, sometimes [3] Nil Einne (talk) 09:44, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

So? I've never heard anyone play video games in probably 45 of the US states. Nil Einne (talk) 09:41, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Gamestop Locations in Honolulu APL (talk) 13:17, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Withnail and I

I am trying to improve the withnail and I article on wikiquote. There is a quote in the movie while still in London, where withnail tells I about thier plans, he says something like: we are going to take two capps of acid, three whiskeys, and some speed, that should knock us out until widnesday, we will then eat a pork pie and drop two pinks a red and a blue. I am paraphrasing. What was this quote, can anyone tell me? does any one know? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 10:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

If you don't have a direct source, and aren't sure, then its probably not a good idea to put it in the article. In general, additions made to articles based on the "I heard it once, and think I remember it" don't improve the articles in question. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:49, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

IMDB says it's "Right, here's the plan. First, we go in there and get wrecked, then we eat a pork pie, then we drop some Surmontil-50's each. That way we'll miss out on Monday and come up smiling Tuesday morning.". --Sean 13:13, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

That's better, but it's still not word-perfect. 81.187.153.189 (talk) 18:30, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

An actual new video game - without a gimmick?

I was having a discussion with a friend over lunch about recent video games, and we were trying to think of a new style of game that has been released over the past 10 years. So many games seem to be old styles of game, reimagined with a different story, more abilites and better graphics. For example, you can trace GTA4 back through either driving style games or first person shooters. We did consider the Wii and it's games, but the innovation is in the control system rather than the games itself - a "gimmick" if you will. The best I could come up with are the games that you tap buttons along to music (eg guitar hero) - but even that could be traced back to games over 10 years old... Parappa the Rappa. Any thoughts would be appreciated, as I hate the idea that nothing new is coming out. --WORM | MЯOW 12:42, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Just thought of one, Pikmin - can't think of anything like it! - but that's nearly 8 years old... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Worm That Turned (talk • contribs) 12:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Likewise, The Sims was pretty revolutionary, it may be just within that 10 year limit, but there really wasn't anything quite like it when it came out. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:01, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

"For example, you can trace GTA4 back through either driving style games or first person shooters." Here's your problem. You're ignoring truly new aspects to games in favor of the elements you can trace back to previous games. The innovation in GTA (admittedly, itself an old game) is its "sandbox" freedom, not the driving or the walking around shooting things. GTA essentially created a new genre. You seem to be expecting a whole new genere that is not related in any way to an existing one. That's ridiculous, that hasn't occurred since Pac-Man.

However, if you're looking for wholly new genres it's true that they don't appear very often. (A bunch appeared all at once as the technology made them possible, of course, but you can't count that.) This is true in all art forms. It's rare for a whole new genre of film to emerge, and often it's not recognized until after the fact.(See Film Noir) Even when a new genre does become popular, there is usually a proto-example that existed before the genre entered the mainstream (Rhythm games, especially guitar games are big right now, but they existed for a while.)

Finally, if you're looking for unique games that probably won't spawn entire genres but offer genuinely unique gameplay, then I recommend Katamari Damacy. In fact, I recommend it regardless. APL (talk) 13:08, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

You say you're not interested in input method gimmicks, but if "Pikmin" had a mouse/keyboard interface it'd be one of many RTS games. If that's the sort of thing that qualifies you might look at Odama(GC) and Lifeline (video game)(PS2) two games that use voice input to make unique games. (Lifeline is not great, but it's interesting. You can find it in bargain bins now.)APL (talk) 13:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, proving that there's no lack of creativity in these matters, check out the Indie Game Jams. APL (talk) 13:23, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Although you have already discounted Wii as an input gimmick, the new mind-controlled games may be worth considering.[4] Rmhermen (talk) 13:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not an elitist snob, and I know there are fantastic games out there. I know full well that in general if a new game wants to stand out from the crowd (and therefore make money) it has to offer something different, but our discussion started me looking for new genres of games (even if they end up as a non-starter).

Having said that, I guess it's rather unlikely to happen. Publisher want to make money, and are unlikely to pay for something that might flop, and if there's nothing to compare it to then it's too much of a risk... Thanks for all your thoughts, I'll look into those games I haven't heard of. Would love to hear any other thoughts too! --WORM | MЯOW 16:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

My point was not that you were a snob, but that if you trivialize GTA (Just over your 10 year mark.) to "a driving game" you've completely missed what made the game truly original. APL (talk) 20:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

And note that the original GTA and GTA2 are really not the same sorts of games as GTA3 and its successors. Yes, they have violence and large sprawling cities but the combining of that with a first-person perspective is an entirely different sort of thing—it lends itself to a very different type of game and a very different type of experience. I don't consider the latter GTAs to have all that much in common with the first two, personally. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 21:24, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Katamari Damacy? Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 07:51, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree that Katameri Damacy is pretty novel. Picmin (a great game) isn't that much different from things like Lemmings. I'd offer The Incredible Machine as a pretty novel game. Tetris - of course - is another.

But getting really novel games out into the market is exceedingly tough. The (not-especially-novel) game I've been working on for the past 18 months was costing the company an average of a million dollars a week to build (less at the outset - much more towards the end). The game would have taken three years to make had they not canceled it 30 months into production. Something on the scale of GTA or Halo would cost a LOT more than that. Consider spending $100 to $500 million on a concept that's utterly novel...firstly, how are you ever going to convince anyone that it's going to turn a profit? With a non-novel game, you can point to some other similar-ish game and say "Well, XYZ made $250 million - and our idea improves upon XYZ in the following ways....so it's worth making because it should turn a profit". If you pitch an idea that has utterly zero references back into the past - how will you convince someone to stake you hundreds of millions of dollars with absolutely no guarantee that the game will be fun...let alone sell in insane quantities. Note particularly that the game doesn't exist in any form when you first pitch it to the money men - and even if you make 'proof of concept' for much less money, it's well known in the business that the most 'fun' value is added at the tail end of the project - so very few games appear fun after only a year or so of work.

It's the same as with movies. Making an entirely novel movie (think "Blair witch project" or "Cloverfield") can only happen if you do it on a shoe-string budget with shakey hand-held cameras and no-name actors. Big movies with big budgets are ALWAYS derivative in nature - and games are just the same. So the most likely source of a truly novel game is in the low-low-low-budget end of things. The nature of the way game-consoles are funded (they sell the game consoles at a huge loss - and make the money back by licensing rights to make games for it) means that nobody can make a low-low-low budget console game because the licensing costs will kill you. That leaves only PC games - and the market for those is falling off sharply because PC's are not sold at a loss like game consoles are - and it's tough to make a cutting edge game for a platform where no two computers are exactly alike. Just think of the cost of testing your low-low budget game on every kind of CPU, every revision of Windows, every kind of graphics card, sound card, joystick, memory size, disk speed...and all of the combinations of those things! So even PC development is a costly/risky process.

Sadly - this means that with the best will in the world, game makers have their hands tied behind their backs when it comes to innovative games. I am a professional game programmer - and I can tell you that our designers have some amazingly innovative ideas that they'd just LOVE to take a shot at making - but the way the business is funded, it's almost literally impossible. This (incidentally) is the reason there are so many sequels in both movies and games. In the movie business, it's an accepted rule-of-thumb that a sequel will make 50% as much as the original movie...there are exceptions (Like James Bond in the movies or like GTA in the games arena) - but that's nice for the producers - they know that if they can make a sequel for 50% what the original cost - they will hit the same profit margin. Even if the sequel costs the same as the original - if the original made more profit than it cost - then the sequel will at least break even. This goes double for games - where you can often use most of the software you wrote for the original and mostly just add new art to make the sequel. That makes the sequel both cheaper AND less risky.

What it takes to fix this is for people to steadfastly refuse to buy derivative games and sequels...and that's not going to happen. The biggest game blockbusters in all of history are GTA IV and Halo III. Sad...but that's in the nature of the business.

SteveBaker (talk) 15:04, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for all your help, and especially Steve for that very comprehensive reply. I'll keep an eye out for Katamari Damacy in the future! --WORM | MЯOW 07:50, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Taxation base for Personal Income Tax in US

I heard that you can lower your income base for calculating income tax when you show losses on shares. Can you decrease your income tax to zero? Is it true that you have to sell shares till end of October to show losses on shares? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.158.197.100 (talk) 14:09, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

For questions about how to comply with tax law, please consult a tax accountant or tax attorney. Darkspots (talk) 14:29, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't sound likely to me that this is a great strategy anyway - in order to viably show enough losses on shares in order to reduce your taxable income to zero, you would have to actually lose an amount equal to your income on shares. Beyond that, you'd simply be telling lies on your tax return and there are probably less convoluted ways to do it if you take that risk. ~ mazca ^t|c 14:59, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

It's mainly a way of controlling when you pay taxes, rather than how much you pay. If you want to defer your tax payments you sell your shares that have lost money before the end of the tax year and keep the ones that have gained money until the next tax year, then you have a loss this year reducing your tax and a profit next year increasing it. --Tango (talk) 15:19, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Tax law is pretty straightforward on this if you look at it from the right direction. Profits add to your income, losses subtract from it; you add up all your profits and losses on sales throughout the year and look at the net.

• If you made a net profit in the year, you figure the tax on the entire profit and add it in.
• On the other hand, if you have a net loss for the year, there's a limit on how much of it you can write down in a year.

So, the answer to your first question is technically "Yes", but only if you have lots of capital losses and very little taxable income from all other sources.

The other question is No. When you "do your taxes" for 2007, you're looking at everything that happened in 2007, and effectively balancing how much you paid during the year against how much you actually owe at the end of the year. Normally, you have to do this by April 15th, but you can get a 6-month extension by asking for it. Note, importantly, that it's an extension of time to FILE, not an extension of time to PAY.

-- DaHorsesMouth (talk) 22:48, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

In canada "Allowable Capital Losses" can only be used to offset "Taxable Capital Gains", so you wouldn't be able to use them to write off Employment Income. You are, however, allowed to look back 3 years for any capital losses to deduct against, or carry them forward up to 20 years. So if you had a whole ton of capital losses in past years, and a huge capital loss this year, you could make nominal tax liability this year "0".

Also, the rule in Canada is that you can sell your shares at any time to produce a capital loss, however, if you buy back those same shares within (I think it's 30 days) it's considered a "superficial loss" (a loss only for tax purposes) and you can't write it off as a capital loss. I think the rules are probably pretty similar in the United States, but I don't know. NByz (talk) 18:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

the circle without center

how to explain? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.96.160.155 (talk) 14:18, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Doughnut?

In R2, consider the set of all points a fixed distance from a central point C, but not the point C itself. 68.146.178.33 (talk) 15:05, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Not considering the centre doesn't make it non-existent. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 15:08, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

A circle drawn in an annulus wouldn't have a centre (as long as you don't embed the annulus in a larger space). --Tango (talk) 15:21, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

A great circle in positively-curved space has no center. —Tamfang (talk) 16:47, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

See the first quotation here. Deor (talk) 17:56, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

But that's the opposite of what's asked about. —Tamfang (talk) 16:47, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

No circle has a centre. If it did, it would be a disk.--ChokinBako (talk) 22:51, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

That's getting into arguable territory. Does a circle have a diameter, a perimeter, an area, a centre, a radius, and many arcs and segments? Clearly yes. Are they "part of the circle"? To mathematician, no; but to someone who sees things in a broader context, yes. -- JackofOz (talk) 02:49, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

A torus.Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 07:29, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not a donut or a torus - those are both 3D shapes. Circles are 2D. In mathematics, a circle is a curve defined by the equation x²+y²=R² - so it is just a perimeter - a curved line. Wh talk (formally) about "the area enclosed by a circle is pi.R²" - not "the area of a circle" - which is just fuzzy thinking or informal language. So a circle with no middle is just "a circle". The area bounded by a circle is called a 'disk' - and a disk with another disk cut out of its center is an 'annulus' - which is the 2D analog of a torus. So "annulus" if you're talking informally about a circle, "circle" if you're being super-formal and mathematical about it. SteveBaker (talk) 14:29, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Top Gear

I am a fan of Top Gear and I live in the U.S. Why is BBC America so far behind with episodes? They were recently touting series 6 episodes as new, yet they aired series 10 episodes before that. Do they have to edit the episodes? 67.150.173.126 (talk) 21:21, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Looking through the episode guides, some segments are edited out. 67.150.173.126 (talk) 21:25, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, we've seen:

1. odd bits of series 3 and 4
2. all of series 9 and 10
3. some of series 7
4. and finally all of series 6

It's not clear whether we'll ever see any more of the UK episodes because they are now making a series specifically for the US market.

They certainly do edit all that they show here - the original shows are an hour long - but on the BBC, there are no adverts. Here they are still an hour long WITH adverts - which (according to our article) means they cut 13 minutes out of each episode.

Frankly, it's a mess. Presumably, they initially aired some recent episodes - intending to keep the US show roughly in sync with the UK version - then when it became wildly popular here - they decided they could make money by showing some older shows. The result is chaos...and it'll only get worse when the made-for-the-US-market version appears. I'm dreading that. I can't think of a single BBC show that was even 50% as good when remade for the US market. SteveBaker (talk) 14:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

If you go on torrent sites you can find many old episodes available for downloading. Check the legalities though, --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:40, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't take much checking, it's illegal. The BBC sometimes releases short clips from shows, but they rarely release the whole thing. If they did, the place to find it would be bbc.co.uk, not bittorrent. --Tango (talk) 16:05, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not necessarily illegal at all. If the content had been commercially released on DVD I could see your point, but some torrent sites make strenuous efforts to stay on the right side of copyright by only making available shows that have not been commercially released. In this case, the situation is analogous to me taping a show off air and lending you the tape. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

(Which would be illegal BTW) SteveBaker (talk) 21:19, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) Really? IANAL, but consider the Supreme Court's judgement in Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc., specifically the passage that goes: "When one considers the nature of a televised copyrighted audiovisual work ... and that time-shifting merely enables a viewer to see such a work which he had been invited to witness in its entirety free of charge, the fact ... that the entire work is reproduced ... does not have its ordinary effect of militating against a finding of fair use." That clears up the matter of private, non-commercial use. The analogy with filesharing is still being debated, see the last section of the article. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 21:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

That's the problem though - there are people like you who think that just because something has or has not been released commercially - that they can copy it. Nothing could be further from the truth. Unless the copyright has expired - or the owner has explicitly given you the right to copy the work - you're stuck with "Fair use" provisions - and those are not gonna protect someone who copies a video of TopGear onto a torrent site or the people who download it. It most certainly IS illegal unless you can show that you are using a small clip - or it's entirely for educational, or review purposes and that you aren't harming the possible future earnings of the owner and...about a dozen other complicated things. There is NO WAY that a torrent of TopGear is in any way legal unless the BBC explicitly say so...and AFAIK, they have not done that...and they are exceedingly unlikely to do so while they can still sell it all around the world (which they most certainly can). SteveBaker (talk) 21:17, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

October 18

Top sprinters/marathoners

If you look at the 10 fastest times ever run by marathoners, eight are from east Africa (and the other two were born in Morocco). And if you look at the top 10 sprinters, judging by 100m and 200m times—well, it's hard to tell because of the history of slavery, but looking at their wikipedia pages, they are almost all black and therefore probably almost all descendants of people from west Africa, at least in part. I think a lot of people recognize this but don't talk about it, maybe because it could hint of racism. But what *is* behind this? It can't just be training. zafiroblue05 | Talk 01:31, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Not undiscussed at all. See The Story Behind the Amazing Success of Black Athletes for example. Or a more science-heavy one: Some bio-medical mechanisms in athletic prowess. Rmhermen (talk) 01:43, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

You may want to look into Jon Entine's book Taboo: Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We're Afraid to Talk About It.--droptone (talk) 20:35, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Mystery heavy metal clip

Please, someone help identify this recording:

http://4661862067007028647-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/wikifatman/Home/mysterymetal.mp3

It sounds very similar to the classic "machine gun" riff from "One" but definitely has a more contemporary, heavily de-tuned (dare I say nu metal) sound and higher production values. It couldn't be earlier than the late 90s, and I'm thinking it could be Slipknot or Meshuggah.

Can someone help? No guesses, please--only respond if you're familiar with the song.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 03:38, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

My guess could be exactly what you want, but I won't bother you with it.--Artjo (talk) 06:14, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Ha! That's a good comeback--my bratty "no guessing" stipulation was product of drunken editing last night, so feel free to speculate, now that I'm feeling more reasonable. However, my guess is you don't really have a guess.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 14:12, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

RE:Reference desk help: I've listened to it. I don't know that stuff. It is not Meshuggah. I can't say whether it is Slipknot or not - I've heard their albums only once. I only can say that it is not MFKR, which I know pretty well (a great album by the way). Sorry. Cheers.--  LYKANTROP  ✉ 12:41, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for trying. I'm now thinking it could also be very recent Metallica, something off the awful St. Anger record, perhaps....but I don't think Metallica ever got that crazy with the detuning.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 14:12, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

If you're in the UK, or if you have access to an iPhone, you might try Shazam [[5]]. Friends of mine who have iPhones love it. --Scray (talk) 17:59, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I've heard of such services and would love to try them, but I don't think I have any way to access Shazam.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 02:28, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I can't download it. Could you put up a mirror on Ripway or the like? Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 07:26, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I had never heard of Shazam before. Seems similar to Zit! from GTA4. Try to find an apple store or mobile service provider shop that has an iPhone on display. They normally don't care what you download and if it's free for iPhone then you shouldn't have a problem. I got really bord in a Cingular-AT&T shop not too long ago.HitmanNumber86 (talk) 06:47, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Question regarding the deletion of content/images on wikipedia (admins please comment!)

Am I right in thinking that admins are still able to view deleted material (and images). This means nothing is ever truly deleted off Wikipedia, doesn't it? In effect then, wikipedia has lots of copyrighted material, it is merely not viewable to the general public but only to a group known as admins. Surely then it won't be long until someone prosectutes? --217.227.89.230 (talk) 12:09, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Can of worms. I have had a few images deleted from wikipedia. After It gets deleted, its viewable by the Admins, and the uploader, and if you are really, really good at poking around, you can find it, but only for a few days at best. ( my stuff was gone only after 2 hours! ). So, there is NOT a lot of copyrighted material lurking around, because it gets purged very quickly. So, no any material is handled to most copyright holders satisfaction. i.e. the melium copyright act has to have a complainer .... do a bit more research... $--~~~~$ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.185.0.29 (talk) 13:39, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

This is not correct. Once something is deleted, it is viewable only by admins - not by the uploader or anyone really good at poking around. Wikipedia:Oversight is the process where information is removed from the databases and becomes unviewable by anyone. Rmhermen (talk) 15:48, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

In most cases things deleted are visible to admins. There are some special cases where things are indeed permanently deleted because of legal reasons (see WP:OTRS). As for storing old copyrighted materials on Wikimedia servers, even in edit histories, I am fairly sure that any judge would laugh out of court the idea that you could be sued for infringement over that unless there was evidence that this system was being used in a way other than enforcement of administration of the site. (If admins were using this system as a way to trade MP3s, then maybe. But they aren't.) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 13:53, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. If you view a picture on the internet, a copy of the picture is saved in a Cache on your hard drive. Such copies are not normally considered copyright infringement. I see the deleted versions as not much different than that. It cannot be claimed that the existance of deleted images in Wikipedia's database causes any harm to the copyright holder (which is different from publicly viewable images), and thus there is nothing anyone can "sue" for. Since no one could show damages, there is no infringement. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:00, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

What about the Internet Archive? ~AH1^(TCU) 19:56, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Internet Archive contains all sorts of ways for people not to have their material archived (using the Robots.txt file, for example), and is happy to remove any content that they archive if someone complains. Note that under the DMCA you don't automatically get sued for copyrighted content; there is a grace "takedown" period in most cases (esp. with things like Wikipedia where the content is contributed by anonymous internet folk—Wikimedia is not liable for their infringement so long as it takes appropriate action when complained about). --98.217.8.46 (talk) 01:15, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Size of a 10-week-old Yorkie?

OK, how big is a 10-week-old Yorkie? Would it be small enough to fit in your hand? I'm trying to check some facts here to see how badly someone's lying to me. --Alinnisawest,^{Dalek Empress} (extermination requests here) 14:13, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, unless someone eats it, it will be exactly the same size it was when it was made. -mattbuck (Talk) 14:40, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean Yorkshire terrier, as opposed to Mattbuck's Yorkie (chocolate bar) or some other Yorkie? If so, then the answer is "I dunno". jnestorius^(talk) 14:57, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Presumably a dog. It's for a scambait if you want to know... some scum is trying to trick people into paying him extremely large amounts of money to adopt dogs, and I was just checking up on some of his "facts". 66.188.52.51 (talk) 15:43, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I've never seen a newborn Yorkie, but this page gives the birth weight of pups as 3 to 6 ounces, so I'd guess the palm of the hand thing might be pretty close to the truth. Karenjc 20:49, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I also found a reference to a 10-week-old Yorkie weighing 21 ounces. I can hold a bag with a pound and a half of sugar in my hand, so ... mmmm, yeah, probably. Karenjc 20:55, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

All right, thanks! --Alinnisawest,^{Dalek Empress} (extermination requests here) 23:59, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Yorkies can vary quite a bit in size, from 'teacup' to fairly large (for a small dog). Doug Weller (talk) 11:18, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

In my experience: Small enough - yes. Inactive enough - definitely not! SteveBaker (talk) 13:56, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Need a new MP3 player

Being a music junkie, it's been really hard for me to get by with my little Mobiblu cube (I love the thing to death, but a gigabyte it just not enough)... As such, I've decided it's time for an upgrade. Problem is, I've no idea what to get. So I need some help.

iPods always seemed nice enough, but I've heard too many PMP "purists" complain about how they're overrated and the battery life is crappy, blah blah blah, etc. The Zune looked kinda cool, but, being as I am a Linux user, I don't think it would get along well with my computer. I have heard wonderful things about Archos, but a quick tour of their website made my wallet cringe and I didn't really see anything I'd like, anyway... And Creative has always seemed like a good way to go, but, as with Archos, I didn't notice anything that really matched what I'm looking for.

I've got about 60 gigs of music (and growing) that I'd like to be able to fit (although I doubt I'll ever pass more than 100 that I'd actually listen to). And I'd probably have some videos and pictures and what have you, so a decent screen would be nice. But I really don't want something that's uber-expensive because it's got tons of fancy features and stuff (which is why I don't want things like the Archos 5... A web browser would be pretty schweet, but I'm not paying that much for something that I can use to surf the 'net when I could just as easily get on a computer or use my DS). Basically, I'm looking for something with 60+ gigabytes of memory, a good screen (doesn't have to be perfect though), average or above average sound quality (I've got normal, five-bucks-a-pop headphones, but my hearing is pretty good and I can tell the difference between 128 and 192 kbps), and hopefully for an okay price. Pretty much what you'd see in an iPod or a Zune, only not an iPod or a Zune (and a bit cheaper, if I can swing it). :P Oh, and if it's something that you can customize the firmware and stuff on on (yay Linux!), that would be awesome.

Any suggestions? Or am I just living in a fantasy land by hoping for something like this? Thanks in advance.

(Sorry for another one of my "wall-of-text" style questions, but I like coherency.) --69.146.230.243 (talk) 23:32, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

From our header: ...if you need advice or opinions, it's better to ask elsewhere. -hydnjo talk 00:35, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Um, he's asking for pretty specific things based on specs at the end of it. He's basically asking "what are the options for MP3 players with 60+ GB of memory?" though he's taking about as long a road to that as he can find. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 01:09, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

60GB+ narrows down the field quite a bit as there aren't a lot with that much memory from what I can see. Browsing NewEgg.com's MP3 player options pretty much narrows it down to Archos and Cowon players, starting around $300. If you were willing to go with less memory (do you need ALL of your music on the player at the same time?) you'd have more options. Go to NewEgg.com and click on "Mp3 players" and if you drill down enough you can view all of their holdings by memory capacity or any other variable you can dream of. But very high memory Mp3 players are pretty expensive, so far as I can tell. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 01:13, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

An opinion: iPod Classic - 120GB - $249 -hydnjo talk 01:28, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Have you tried asking the Computing desk? They don't bite much. --Blue387 (talk) 02:40, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't you mean "they don't byte much"? Okay, that was lame. Useight (talk) 05:53, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Whatever the model you end up buying, can I recommend the free alternative to firmware Rockbox which has done wonders for me and works on all the players you mentionned. I've been using it on a second hand Toshiba Gigabeat (40gb) bought for $70, 2 years ago and it's never let me down. 190.244.186.234 (talk) 18:22, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

October 19

how many tabs from soda cans fit into a milk jug?

how many tabs from soda cans fit into a gallon milk jug? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.8.100.70 (talk) 05:44, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I measured a soda can's pull tab, and I found that it is pretty much 3/4 of an inch by 1/2 an inch by 1 millimeter. Converting those measurements makes it 19.05mm x 12.7mm x 1mm or 241.935 cubic millimeters. A gallon milk jug obviously holds one gallon, which converts to 3,785,000 cubic millimeters. Dividing 3,785,000 by 241.935 results in a total of 15,644.69796 tabs. However, that would also require getting all the can tabs in their nice and neatly, which would be impossible, so that 15,645 should be the theoretical maximum. Realistically you'd get a bit fewer than that. But I'll leave that calculation up to someone else. My source for conversions was this site. Useight (talk) 06:09, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I imagine this is a Fermi problem, in which case a guesstimate is expected, rather than an exact answer. Taking the volume of a tab to be between 150 and 300 mm³ and a gallon to be about 3.75 litres, you get between 10,000 and 20,000 tabs per gallon. Gandalf61 (talk) 09:31, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

It also depends on the shape of the jug. I know that here in the US, the type of jug that I've seen the most does not have a handle that is wide enough for any tabs to fit in. Though, the handle is hollow, so it does add to the volume of a liquid. Dismas|^(talk) 17:24, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Unidentified building

What building is this? From webpage text it's something in St. Petersburg. Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 08:33, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

It's the Kazan Cathedral. Nanonic (talk) 08:50, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Which I have just moved to Kazan Cathedral, St. Petersburg. jnestorius^(talk) 21:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Supports for a 2x4

I have to cover a 13' span with 2"x4"x14' southern pine planks. I find there is a small sag in the middle of a plank even if there is no load on the plank (except the planks weight itself). I find that as the plank absorbs water from the atmosphere, the sag becomes deeper. How many supports evenly across the length of the board do I need to make the amount of sag unnoticeable. Is there a rule of thumb or some table I can use to answer this question for various sizes and loads? Phil Burnstein (talk) 10:52, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Every 14"-16" would be about the usual I think--Artjo (talk) 13:04, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The Sagulator might well help: http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.187.153.189 (talk) 14:43, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

That sagulator is great. Thank you. Phil Burnstein (talk) 08:36, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

• A 2" x 4" x 14' pine plank will sag under its own if laid flat (the 4" part on the top and bottom).
• The same plank will remain pretty strait if mounted on edge (the 2" part on the top and bottom)
• The amount of sag will of course increase if any load is placed on the boards especially if the boards are laid flat (4" on the top and bottom).
• The additional sag due to water absorption is most likely due to the unequal absorption, the bottom usually absorbs more and causes more sag.
• Spanning a 14' length with 2" x 4" pine lumber without interim supports seems unwise.
• If you really want to make that span unsupported from below then a thorough analysis by an architectural or structural engineer would be strongly recommended. -hydnjo talk 06:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I hope you do not plan to put any load on these 2 x 4's, and that they will be protected from ice buildup and high wind. They sound barely self supporting. Edison (talk) 19:51, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Food/What is Scrapple and how do you make it?

I would like to know about an old-fashioned dish called Scrapple and how would you make it? Connie, Bryan TX —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.113.234.32 (talk) 17:14, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, you might look at the article Scrapple. The first link under "External links" leads to one recipe. Deor (talk) 17:20, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the nutritional data, I suggest you obtain a "license to kill" from your local but secret agency prior to your domestic alchemy. Of course, if, in a Bond sequel to come, you observe the hero decimating the ubiquitous villains with large helpings of scrapple, you know who invented this fiendish plot of lethal weaponry... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:46, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Basically, you get a pig. You take all the stuff you'd use to make pork chops, ribs, bacon, ham, etc. The stuff that's left over from that, you make sausage from. Anything that wasn't good enough to make sausage, that's scrapple. Yummy. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:00, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

My dad always used to describe cheap sausages as being made from "lips 'n' arseholes". Apparently not, those are saved for scrapple. ~ mazca ^t|c 18:31, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The recipes I have use things such as port sausages, pork shoulder or butt, pork loin, or just ground pork. There are lots of different ways to make it, some use cornmeal or buckwheat flour, some use thyme, others nutmeg, etc. Doug Weller (talk) 19:31, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

My "Granny" considered scrapple and "head cheese" or "souse" as the same dish. She would take the head of the hog, boil it, then scrape off all meat (except for the eyeballs) and put it in a crock to cool. The natural gelatine in it would cause it to congeal into a translucent mass with visible and recognizable bits of the animal. It could then be refrigerated, sliced and fried. Delicious. I have seen a product in stores called "Imitation Bologna" made of lips, snouts, ears, and fat which was about the same thing. Both seemed a step below Spam. Edison (talk) 20:25, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Generally, scrapple has a lower gelatin-to-meat ratio than headcheese. Its also got cornmeal mixed with it; scrapple is more of a meatloaf than a head cheese. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 23:51, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

As a side note, scrapple is also described in the Xbox game Whacked!. Useight (talk) 02:26, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

GRAB A PIG, PUT IT IN A CAN, SCRAPPLE! Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 05:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Proper License for a Written Work?

Hi, I'm releasing a written work (like a autobiographical story) onto the internet, and I am having trouble finding a license that reflects the rights I would like use for it. I want to allow people to share, sell, and allow people to do whatever they would like with it, with the sole exception being that the text should not be changed. Extracting parts of the work and distributing them is perfectly fine; I just want to preserve the integrity of what was originally written. I'm thinking a Creative Commons No Derivative Works License might be what I want, but I want to allow people to quote sections of it and include any number of paragraphs in any work they create. Taking a section and using it in your work would count as a derivative work, right? Or is a derivative work only where the words and possibly meaning are changed? Thanks for the help! —Pie4all88 ^{T C} 19:27, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

We can't give legal advice here, and that probably qualifies. You should either contact a lawyer, or contact Creative Commons. --Tango (talk) 21:02, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Uh, what? The entire point of CC licenses is that people can figure them out without being lawyers. They are not cryptic. If one cannot ask about how copyleft licenses work on Wikipedia, then all is lost! --98.217.8.46 (talk) 22:34, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

There isn't an existing CC license for what you want. Basically you want ND except for unlimited partial quotation or extraction provided the extracts are not modified. That's not very standard.

What you might do is release it as CC-ND, but then put an additional note on it that allows the specific forms of derivative works as you say. There is nothing in the CC deed that says you can't grant additional rights beyond those given in the CC-deed (you just can't withhold rights). --98.217.8.46 (talk) 22:34, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, that's a good possibility. Thank you for the advice, 98! —Pie4all88 ^{T C} 03:03, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

There is something contradictory in what you ask here. If people are allowed to quote short sections - then they can leave out a sentence they don't like - quote the sections either side of it and add their own sentence in-between - thereby "editing" your work in ways you don't want to allow. IMHO, if you aren't going to make a profit on the thing (which it looks like you aren't) then your best bet is to allow people to edit it - but to require them to provide full disclosure to their readership along with a link to the original document (eg "This work was written by Pie4all88 but has since been edited by AwfulEditor99 - the original document is at http://www.pie4all.com"). SteveBaker (talk) 13:50, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

How does pie4all.com not exist?!? FiggyBee (talk) 15:39, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

That's not a bad idea, Steve, and you're correct that I don't plan on making a profit from it. I think, though, that as long as the reader can determine what was in the original document and what was added by the editor (which they would be able to do because the excerpts would be enclosed by quotation marks), the integrity of the piece would not be lost. Paraphrasing sections in between quotations would be fine, so I want to be sure to allow that. I also hate to impose restrictions like the disclaimer you mentioned on other people, since it is annoying to have to include. I'll probably use 98's idea or simply release it into the public domain since it's getting somewhat complicated. Thanks for the help, though! —Pie4all88 ^{T C} 03:03, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Infant Mortality Rate, Under-5 Mortality Rate and Death Rate

What was the infant mortality rate, under-5 mortality rate and death rate in ancient times and the Middle Ages? Bowei Huang (talk) 01:43, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm... indeed, our infant mortality article doesn't seem to cover those time periods well. If you find good answers (from reliable sources) during your research, please consider adding them to the appropriate part of Wikipedia! --Scray (talk) 01:43, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

At 0AD when Jesus was born during Herod's time, it was 100%, apparently.--ChokinBako (talk) 11:01, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Nah, it was 99.999999%. Jesus was missed. 216.49.181.128 (talk) 00:00, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

As with so much in the Bible a)It's disputed. b)We have an article on that. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 15:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

So, Givnan & 216.49.181.128, what do you have against women? CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 09:21, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

October 20

Parachute Jump Doors

What is the name given to the section of the aircraft that a person would jump out of while skydiving? Is it the jump door? The jump ramp? Acceptable (talk) 01:07, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Until someone can nail this, I get "aircraft door" with a further title depending on its location in the structure such as rear door of rear-door aircraft (eg, rear door Cessna 206) and "right hand exit" or "left hand exit". Aircraft doors seem to be descriptive: cargo door, fuselage door, access door. "Parachute door" relates to spacecraft. fwiw, Julia Rossi (talk) 03:49, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

When I'm skydiving it's generally referred to simply as the "door" as we we're solely using small 6-12man planes that only have one door anyway. On a larger plane Julia Rossi is right, it's generally referred to descriptively as in a normal plane - the "rear door", the "cargo door", the "side door", or whatever. These planes are generally slightly-modified normal planes so there's not really a specific parachuting door that needs a particular name. ~ mazca ^t|c 07:51, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

trade?

if all international trade stopped what would the us and finland have to live without? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.163.209.5 (talk) 03:10, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Chocolate. Pfly (talk) 07:12, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

The US would cope pretty admirably-there's a fair lot of stuff that they would be able to grow/make within their borders. Quite how all international trade would stop baffles me-there's always the chance of something being smuggled into the country or put on a little raft and floated onto a beach or dropped out of the sky... Lemon martini (talk) 12:43, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

The United States would be unable to produce the electronic products and computers it consumes(including the chips and other components), without a period of several years to build factories. Such equipment has been produced for decades in countries where the labor is cheap. The U.S. would be at a loss for petroleum, since reserves are far to small to supply the present level of usage. Edison (talk) 18:44, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Drill in Alaska. 216.49.181.128 (talk) 23:59, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Per Arctic Refuge drilling controversy , the U.S. consumes 21 million barrels of petroleum products per day, and produces 5 million per day. Drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge would be expected to result in production starting in 2018, which could reach a maximum of .78 million barrels per day in 2027. "Drill baby drill" barely puts a dent in the need for imported petroleum. Edison (talk) 19:49, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

We'd also end up with an appalling lack of cheap plastic lead-filled toys and clothing made in sweatshops. Poor us. We'd also be without decent cars, but we've got the best motorcycles in the world so I suppose we'd make out all right! (referring to the US here, just to clarify) --Alinnisawest,^{Dalek Empress} (extermination requests here) 04:15, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The sudden scaricty of oil would make other scarcities seem a lot worse. At least in the short term. USA might have plenty of corn, but it all stays in Iowa it doesn't help me one bit. APL (talk) 04:44, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

While the US might eventually arrive at some kind of self-sustaining situation - the short-term effects would be totally disasterous. There would be extreme shortages of some kinds of things - and wild excesses of others. Prices of anything that requires significant manual effort in construction would skyrocket because those things are currently built cheaply overseas. Whilst the US does produce its own cars (and, yes, motorbikes) - many of the parts they are made of are likely to be made overseas - so in all likelyhood, the supply of new cars (and probably motorbikes too) would dry up until new part factories could be built, staffed and the replacement parts designed, tested and ramped up into production. In some areas, these factories might be very hard to set up because designers and workers with the necessary skills might simply not exist within the USA. With "just in time" approaches to shipping parts and raw materials to manufacturers being commonplace - the effect of this would be immediate. In businesses where the US produces an excess (chemicals, corn, soybeans, electrical equipment) - there would be an instant glut of product resulting in a price crash and desperate problems for the companies that make those things. In businesses where even one teeny-tiny part or ingredient is imported, business would stall until alternative production could be set up. Since much of production relies on machinery - pretty soon the spare parts for some of those machines would dry up - so over a period of months, more and more factories would stop working until more factories to make those spare parts could be set up. Things would be extremely chaotic for years to come.

As to how this terrible situation could come about - well, in a sense, it's already started. With world-wide bank failures, it's going to be hard for companies to do international deals. How does company A pay company B when they are in different parts of the world? Without the flow of money - there can be no flow of goods.

SteveBaker (talk) 10:17, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Well nobody else has mentioned Finland, so why should I. Going back to the US I am puzzled that nobody has mentioned the obvious. With what is probably the largest military in the world coupled with a discontented population I would imagine that war and invasion of other countries would happen very quickly. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 10:30, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your point. If for whatever reason the U.S. cannot trade internationally, the easiest solution would be U.S. expansionism. This wouldn't necessarily be through military conquest. Canada would be in horrible shape if they couldn't trade with their biggest economic partner. In such a state, they could be persuaded to join the U.S. peacefully and would provide the U.S. with a lot of needed energy and materials resources. Others might be forced into an expanded U.S. Venezuela and parts of Mexico might be seized for their petroleum. (Hugo Chavez seems to think this will happen any day now.) —D. Monack ^talk 01:45, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Headshot

What happens if someone is shot in the head and doesn't die instantly? I'd assume if it isn't treated they'd die of bloodloss or brain rupture within half an hour or so. Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 05:15, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

James Brady is an example of someone who was shot in the head and survived (although he was left disabled). --Richardrj ^{talk email} 05:31, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Likewise, this guy's girlfriend shot his wife in the head; she survived, though with some impairment. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:46, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

See also Unity Mitford. --Anonymous, 10:02 UTC, October 21, 2008.

Do not try this at home kiddywinks :) Lemon martini (talk) 12:54, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Usually if they don't die instantly then they die more slowly. Blood loss by itself can be fatal, or there can be damage to the portions of the brain that regulate essential processes (like breathing). Inflammation can case fatal swelling of brain tissue over the course of a few hours. While a gunshot wound to the head can often bleed profusely, it doesn't always. There are a number of cases in the medical literature of individuals who have been shot in the head (often while asleep or intoxicated) who don't become aware of it until they (or someone else) notices a bullet wound hours later. (I found a link to one such case recently; it's somewhere in the Ref Desk archives.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Someone I am aware of was shot in the head by a .22 when he was a kid. I guess it was enough of a grazing shot to not do too much damage, but it was in a place that doctors chose not to remove it. He joined the Air Force and never told any of the recruiters. He spent several years flying F-18s with the bullet still inside of his head. Anything is possible.142.104.142.186 (talk) 18:10, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

See also Phineas Gage. A large iron rod, 1 3/4 inches in diameter and 3 feet long, was blasted through his brain,back in 1848, and he lived, although the brain damage caused some personality changes. Edison (talk) 18:39, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Not sure of a cite (sue me!) but I did read the story of a woman caught in a convenience store robbery. She was actually shot through the head by a gun pressed against the nape of her neck and survived without any lasting injuries- no paralysis, no mental retardation, nothing. It was amazing, though, pretty near miraculous, so don't bet on it happening if you get shot in the head!! --Alinnisawest,^{Dalek Empress} (extermination requests here) 04:12, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Discovery Health ran a special on a woman shot in the face by her abusive boyfriend. It was a .22 caliber handgun, and although destroyed her face, she lived to endure a dozen or so reconstructive surgeries. One of the adolescents claiming Judas Priest wanted them to commit suicide apparently did not account for kickback in the shotgun and it discharged and moved, it removed his face but left him alive for several years. --Moni3 (talk) 16:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Damage to wooden door

I'm responsible for a gouge (small, maybe four centimeters long, not deep) someone left in a wooden door. It's a beautiful old carriage house door, probably pine, painted glossy black. I'd like to try to fix this myself rather than paying the owner of the door to have it restored. My question is, is there a wood filler product, available on the American market, that is already stained black? Any recommendations on how to proceed? Thanks, Darkspots (talk) 07:23, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

How artistic are you? We have articles Wood filler and Wood stain but as a painter type I like paint solutions to problems. Since pine is a light coloured wood, I would't go for short cuts like a black wood filler, but if it's under gloss black paint, personally I'd go for wood filler and a black gloss touchup paint like you'd find in a model/hobby shop. You can thin it to build up layers. There are clear gloss finishes to finesse it if needed. Suggest practising on a wood sample first and being patient, use a small soft brush, touching rather than sweeping strokes and take your time, fine sanding between coats. Good luck Julia Rossi (talk) 08:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Checking balance on prepaid vodafone uk

What is the code for checking the balance of a pre-paid Vodafone SIM in the UK? I've been using ＃＊１３４５ up until now, but yesterday it wouldn't work. It just tried to call the number. What is happening? Has it changed?

PS if it makes a difference, I am using a Nokia N95. --ChokinBako (talk) 10:55, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I have a pre-paid Vodafone sim, but I always use the menu to check my balance rather than phoning, so I'm not sure what the number is. My top up card has the number on the back, though, "*#1345#", have you been missing off the last hash? Just tried that number, seems to work for me. --Tango (talk) 11:31, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah! Yes. Thanks! It's just I haven't done it for a while....--ChokinBako (talk) 12:27, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Donkey tools in Spain

I'm looking at getting my donkey's to start doing manual labour with donkey ploughs, patato planters, levellers, etc... (what ever tools I can get my hands on) But Idon't know if or where these instruments exist (especially in Central North Spain)... Is this a feasable idea or are these apparatus unattainable in today's society? Thankyou in advance 87.111.102.134 (talk) 11:01, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I know this isn't the language desk, but technically speaking donkeys would do ungual labour, since they have hooves rather than hands. ;) FiggyBee (talk) 12:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't be impossible. The Southern States Mule and Donkey Association runs old-fashioned plowing days in the U.S. Perhaps there is a similar group in Spain that could offer advice? Google shows a couple how-to sites where people built their own donkey plows but Wikipedia's blacklist wouldn't let me link them. Rmhermen (talk) 13:09, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I think you might have a slight problem getting donkeys to pull a plough and suchlike due to their size and strength. Centuries ago man developed the mule for this purpose, a bigger stronger animal much better suited to the rigours of agricultural labour. If you ask around locally I will be very surprised if some farmer or other hasn't kept some old mule equipment which could serve as a model for a donkey-sized tool (pun not intended).

INTERNATIONAL MALE ESCORT

Hi I am just about to embark on a new career as a male escort,are there any guys out there already in this type of work? I don"t need any advice,as I am fully aware of all the risks involved in this type of work. Thanks, Pluto —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.86.15.15 (talk) 14:40, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

The answer of course is yes. There are many guys working as escorts. If however you are trying to make contact with them Wikipedia is not the place to do that. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:56, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

There will, however, be websites dedicated to just such contacts. Try googling "male escort". --Tango (talk) 15:26, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Never part with any money under any circumstances, especially if they are offering to give you bookings, and always, always ear a condom. And dont eat woman, this is unhygenic

Is there a canabalistic escort service I don't know about. Holy shit. Be careful who you pick up, fer real! --Jayron32.talk.contribs 16:40, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Too much Gere? I don· t think the eating part is the only thing un-sane in this enterprise?--Radh (talk) 18:42, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I understand eating women, but how does one "ear a condom"? What if it gets stuck in there? Plasticup ^T/C 23:11, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

The Virgin Mary conceived when the Archangel Gabriel whispered in her ear.hotclaws 05:20, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Radiation to human via ant

--== Radiation to human via ant ==

This is a serious question and so I would like a serious answer. Is it possible to put an ant in a microwave for two seconds at the most and expect it to give you super powers?(Remember serious question) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Banna ant (talk • contribs) 16:08, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is certainly possible to expect it to give you super powers. You may, however, be disappointed. FiggyBee (talk) 16:12, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

My serious question: What do you think? --Tango (talk) 16:23, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

No like I read Spider man last night and just wanted to know.--Banna ant (talk) 16:27, 20 October 2008 (UTC)Banna ant —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk)

OK, my attempt to answer the question seriously.

1. Microwave ovens to not create ionizing radiation, indeed microwaves are less energetic than ordinary visible light wave; and thus are unlikely to create any sort of crazy genetic mutations. What microwaves do do is get absorbed by substances with a defined dipole moment and cause the molecules of those substances to go nuts, that is, to heat up. At best, microwaving an ant will cause the internal water in the critter to boil. He'll basically just pop.
2. Even a creature who has been effected by Ionizing radiation, such as the high energy radiation eminating from a nuclear decay source, is unlikely to be able to pass on any damaging effects of that radiation, unless the have directly ingested the source. It is entirely possible for, say, an ant to ingest some Plutonium, and then for you to eat the ant and thus take the plutonium into your body. Do not do this. Radiation sickness is one of the most horrific and painful ways to die. However, if the ant has been irradiated by the normal means, such as merely being in the presence of ionizing radiation, and then they were to bite you, it would have no way of passing on any radiation sickness it had to you. Radiation sickness is not contageous.

As a general point, its usually a bad idea to get your ideas on nuclear science from comic book characters, either the green or red and blue varieties. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 16:35, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

( After edit conflict)

First of all, microwave ovens do not emit any nuclear radiation. That's a common misconception. They work by emitting microwaves, which are just radio waves. Very similar to the radio waves used by cell phones. So all you'd wind up with is a warm ant.

Secondly, even if you did expose an ant to gamma radiation (from a nuclear reactor, perhaps), and even if the ant was the kind of ant that can inject venom into people, and even if you got some radioactive venom into your blood, and even if that radioactive venom caused a mutation in your blood, what do you think the odds are that the mutation would be something that gives you super-powers?

Most people, when their DNA is damaged enough to be noticable, they don't get super powers, they get cancer. Given the ratio of the number of people with cancer(millions!) compared to the number of people with super-powers(Zero?), I don't like the odds.

Easier Answer : Of course not. If it was that easy, we'd all do it!

APL (talk) 16:45, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Just to get even more precise gamma radiation, microwave radiation and radio waves are all just electromagnetic waves at different frequencies, so the distinction made above is entirely unjustified. Alpha rays and beta rays are entirely different though. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:11, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but since frequency is related to energy (via Planck's constant), there is a fundemental difference as to the effect of these different waves on substances. Microwaves have distinctly different effect on things than do either radio, light, or gamma waves. While there is no fundemental difference in their cause, there is on the results of exposure to said waves. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:16, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

There's some single celled organisms that derive their energy from the decay of uranium, e.g. see[6]. And many can live in very hot and toxic conditions with high radiation like in nuclear waste. I guess you might call these superbugs but I doubt any can or even want to zip round the earth at faster than light speed and turn time back like superman. Dmcq (talk) 19:10, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I see Deinococcus-Thermus can survive a vacuum so maybe they will eventually do that trick ;-) Dmcq (talk) 19:26, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I just tested it: no super-powered ant. Plasticup ^T/C 19:38, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

You monster, the ants will have their revenge, you have doomed us all. Dmcq (talk) 20:01, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords. Deor (talk) 22:48, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

After two seconds of heating the ant didn't even seem irritated, but I'll let you know if it displays any revolutionary tendencies. Plasticup ^T/C 23:07, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

The serious problem with all comic-book theories that radiation will do something amazing to you is that the radiation can't possibly mutate ALL of the DNA in ALL of your cells in the exact same way. Even if there was a gene you could hit that would give you super-spider-sense, the probability of more than one or two of your gazillion cells getting that mutation is small. Imagine: unless almost all of the trillions of cells in your muscles get the mutation for super-strength - you're not going to have much more than a super-strong microscopic twitch. Even if it's an insect or a spider that gets zapped - and then it bites you - a highly specific mutation in the little bug isn't going to affect more than one or two of it's venom-producing cells - so the amount of mutated venom you'd get would be almost zero. The only real chance for a permanent useful change is in your offspring. Since each child originates from a single cell from each of it's two parents, a single mutation in the gene of a sperm or egg cell would indeed affect every cell in it's body. SteveBaker (talk) 03:34, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Besides, two seconds of microwave radiation (in comic books, I think they usually use stronger stuff, by the way... which would be much more likely to straight-out kill the ant than endow it with any special powers) isn't going to do much. Half a minute and you'll get fried ant (mmm, mmm, eat up!), but just two seconds... nah, not going to do anything. --Alinnisawest,^{Dalek Empress} (extermination requests here) 04:05, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Well I figured that two seconds wouldnt kill him but thanks for the help --206.80.28.33 (talk) 16:10, 21 October 2008 (UTC)Banna ant

Seemingly ants can survive indefinitely in a microwave, see Microwave sterilization (the insect angle!!) The turntable is so food doesn't stay at a point of interference. Marvellous the useful information you fin on the internet. Dmcq (talk) 22:37, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Geography questions

Which reference desk should geography questions be posted at? Wanderer57 (talk) 16:48, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Either here or at humanities is fine. Go ahead and ask your question. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:13, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Does the term "western nations" have a meaning that is generally enough understood that it can be used in Wikipedia without further explanation?

For example, I think India is not a western nation. But what about Ireland? Germany? The Czech Republic? Greece? Japan? Australia? New Zealand? Nauru? Are all the countries in the western hemisphere "western nations"? 17:52, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

See the article western nation (and link to it where appropriate). Rmhermen (talk) 18:05, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. The article western nation reinforces my sense that the meaning of "western nation" is highly dependent on the context.

This paragraph from War in Afghanistan (2001–present) is what led to my question:

"During Operation Anaconda and other missions during 2002 and 2003, special forces from several western nations were also involved in operations. These included the Australian Special Air Service Regiment, the Canadian Joint Task Force 2, the German KSK, the New Zealand Special Air Service and Norwegian Marinejegerkommandoen."

In this context, I think deleting the word "western" would be an improvement. Other views? Wanderer57 (talk) 18:50, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I think Western fits in that context. Rmhermen (talk) 18:53, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

This is a discussion for the talk page in question. DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:22, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Going off Rmhermen's comment, I think "western" fits the context, but wikilinking "western nations" would be quite helpful to clarify what "western" means in the context. — Lomn 19:38, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all. I added a link in the article. I raised my question here rather than in the article Talk page since I see it as a specialized technical point regarding which I was much more likely to find interested and informed editors here. Wanderer57 (talk) 23:15, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

It's interesting that the reference point for Western is Britain, because they were the ones who coined "the East", "the Far East", "the Middle East" etc. Australia is to the east of the UK, more easterly than China and on a par with Japan, and is geographically part of South-East Asia, but nobody seems to get confused when we're regarded as a Western nation. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:28, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I find the whole thing confusing, which is why I raised the question. Wanderer57 (talk) 23:44, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

You have to remember it's not a strictly geographic question. During the Soviet era, four people who defected, respectively, to Finland (due west), Alaska (due east), Australia (due south), or South America (south-east), would all have been said to be defecting to the "West". -- JackofOz (talk) 07:00, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Can I get a peer review for my personal/user page?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:TDTechFlex

I don't want to create an article without it being up to snuff or missing any guidelines. Can a more experience Wiki editor take a look at what I wrote and make some recommendations? I sure would appreciate it.

I searched Wikipedia for "fuel surcharge" and I could not find a definition, rather, just references to the term. The reason I even began my search is a client where I work was asking me about the term and I pointed them to the Internet and told them "if you'll check Wikipedia, chances are you'll get a good definition." Only to not find a definition or much helpful info.

Anyway, if someone could please check my article and let me know if it's ready to be moved over to a public sector, I sure would appreciate it.

Thank you,

TDTechFlex

TDTechFlex (talk) 18:36, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I have left some tips on your talk page. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:28, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

106 year old votes

I was reading this article about a lady who's 106 years old and an early voter:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/20/centenarian.votes/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

My question is: If she dies before the election, does her vote still count? 206.66.66.1 (talk) 18:58, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Any law to the effect that a vote would not count if the voter died between voting and the votes being counted would be absurdly impractical to obey under a secret ballot system. Wanderer57 (talk) 19:13, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Imagine if the woman voted on the official election day, and then died a few minutes later, before the polls closed. She would have certainly died before her vote could have "counted"; yet no one would argue that we should dig her vote out of the box and discount it because of that. I would posit that several hundered people will die on November 4th this year, several of those will vote and will die before voting is over. I don't see any difference between that situation and your hypothetical question. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:16, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. All votes are treated as if they were cast in person in secret at the ballot box on election day. People are allowed to vote early in certain circumstances, and certain types of early votes (e.g. postal ballots) have to be identified because otherwise it would allow the possibility of people voting an unlimited number of times for the same candidate. To subvert this knowledge in order to remove the votes of people who died before the actual election day would an affront to humanity because, as far as the law is concerned, they may as well have survived till election day. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

It's very important for any democracy that it should be impossible for anyone to be able to find out how anyone else voted. It should even be impossible for the voters themselves to be able to prove how they voted. This is necessary to avoid practices such as buying or forcing votes. If I say "I'll give you $10 to vote Obama" - then so long as it's utterly impossible for you to prove to me that you voted the way I asked - then I can't know that my money was well-spent. That being the case, it should be utterly impossible for the authorities to redact the vote of someone who died - even if that were considered desirable by society in general. SteveBaker (talk) 09:46, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know the situation in the USA, but in the UK the authorities can easily determine who a given person voted for. They are known to have used this power in the past to keep track of communist sympathisers. Algebraist 09:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

What? That might be able to with postal votes, but if I put a folded up piece of paper with an x marked on it in a ballot box there is no way of linking it to me... --Tango (talk) 10:41, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The piece of paper has a number on it. The person who gives you the ballot paper notes down which number you were given. See secret ballot#Secrecy vs. reliability. Algebraist 10:47, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I was about to say the same thing. They reference the number against your details in the ballot book when they cross you off so you can't vote twice. -- Q Chris (talk) 10:49, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Wow - I always thought the UK system was completely secret. Perhaps not with postal votes - but certainly with in-person votes. The same used to be true here in the US too - but with new voting machines and electors demanding a paper printout to verify that their vote was cast how they wanted - that vital safety feature may be about to go away. Now, an unscrupulous person could bribe or threaten voters to vote a particular way - insisting that they provide the paper printout as proof that they voted the way they were required to vote. Not being able to prove how you voted is a VITAL safety feature for voters. SteveBaker (talk) 10:53, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Postal votes on demand really do undermine the system. Fraud is rife in this area, with payments and threats used to make people hand over the ballot paper [7]. -- Q Chris (talk) 11:01, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I really don't understand the purpose of the printouts. I understand the risk of having an all electronic system. (A hard-to-find bug (or secret feature!) either destroys votes, or worse, biases them undetectably) But how is giving voters a printout supposed to help that? If there's a problem with the tally will they make a big announcement "Everyone bring back your receipts for a re-count!"? That's obviously absurd.

What's needed is a bunch of anonymous printouts all in the same place so that they can be recounted if needed. Giving receipts to the voters serves no purpose and introduces the non-trivial problems Steve mentioned. APL (talk) 13:31, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, who would have thunk it... you learn something every day. That section you link to mentions the US system of making sure the number of people voting and the number of votes match but doesn't say what they do if the numbers don't match. Does anyone know? --Tango (talk) 14:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The idea of the printout is that when some non-computer-literate person has messed around with all the pretty buttons, levers and flashing lights - the printout will give them confirmation that they did indeed vote for the person they intended to vote for. If they screw up and end up voting for the wrong person, it is presumed that they will be able to take their little scrap of paper to an election official sitting just outside the voting booth - and that person will be able to annul their previous vote and let them try again. Given that voters are notoriously poor at following instructions ("Make SURE the chad is completely detached from the hole"), you can see why this would be attractive to some people. It could even work - if the person is required to drop their bit of paper into a shredder before they leave the voting area. But I'm pretty sure the idea is that they get to keep them - and that's a recipe for all sorts of dirty dealings. But trying to persuade people that giving them a mere piece of paper - telling them something they should already know - could somehow be DANGEROUS to them...well, that's a hard sell. SteveBaker (talk) 21:10, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The problem isn't limited to in-person voting, either. California seems to be moving to a pure vote-by-mail system. They keep sending me invitations to sign up for permanent-absentee-voter status and are pushing it pretty hard. In this election and the last couple (pres. primary in February and ordinary primary in June) they're not giving me a choice; as there are too few voters in my precinct who have not elected permanent-absentee status, they're just sending me my by-mail ballot whether I like it or not (though I can deliver it by hand to another precinct on Nov 4, which is what I plan to do).

This is at least in principle a potentially serious compromise of the secret ballot. Someone could thoughtfully come to your house, help you fill out the ballot, and even mail it for you. Is this a cost-effective way to influence an election, given the chance of getting caught? Probably not, I have to admit. But I still don't like it. --Trovatore (talk) 21:41, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I hate it. The notion of ballot papers having a unique number, which could be used to identify voters, would NEVER get a run in Australia. We introduced the secret ballot to the world, and we're purists when it comes to what "secret" means. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Here in Washington State, the vote-by-mail system is supposed to work like this:

1. You vote your ballot, seal it in the security envelope, seal that in the mailing envelope, sign the mailing envelope, and mail it off (or drop it in an official ballot dropbox).
2. When the ballot arrives, the person recieving it checks your signature against the signature on your voter registration, and checks you off as having voted. They then remove the security envelope from the mailing envelope, put the security envelope in with all the other absentee ballots, and destroy the mailing envelope. They can't know who you voted for, only that you voted.
3. When it comes time to count the ballots, the ballot is removed from the security envelope and run through the counting machine. The person who does this knows who was voted for, but cannot know who cast the vote.

In theory, this makes it impossible to link a given ballot with a given person. --Carnildo (talk) 23:30, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes - but it doesn't prevent an unscrupulous candidate from hiring gangs of people with big muscles and thick necks who roam the district forcing people to make out their ballot in favor of their candidate, stuffing it into the security envelope, signing it and posting it right in the sight of the guy with the big stick. It also doesn't prevent someone from going door to door offering $10 to anyone who'll fill in their ballot in favor of their candidate while they watch. The point of a secret ballot isn't so much to prevent someone in government from finding out who didn't vote for them - it's to prevent up-front fraud. If you lived in someplace with a dictatorial minority in power who are determined to stay in power at all costs (Zimbabwe - and President Mugabe - for example) - then you'd be very glad of a bulletproof scheme whereby nobody could tell how you voted. SteveBaker (talk) 23:41, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Sushi questions

I was recently at a sushi dining occasion, and even though I find sushi delicious, there are a couple of things that I have to ask about.

• Even though I mostly know how to use chopsticks, I don't know how to tear them apart from each other. I ended up tearing half of one chopstick's bottom end (the end facing me) into the other chopstick. How can I avoid this?

• I put entirely too much wasabi into my soy sauce, masking the flavour of the sushi. Can this be rectified in any other way than throwing the entire contents of the sauce dish away and refilling it?

• The drink to go with the sushi was room-temperature sake, which I found very difficult to drink. I can drink a litre of cool beer in under an hour, and a full glass of wine in a bit over an hour, but two decilitres of room-temperature sake took me almost two hours. Is this only because of my inexperience, or should the sake have been either ice-cold or hot? JIP | Talk 20:23, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

To answer your questions in order:

1. I generally find that pushing outwards steadily but firmly as far as you can get from the stuck-together end generally works well. Occasionally you just get some overly-stuck chopsticks though, it's entirely possible you were doing it right but just had bad luck.
2. Not really. Just call it a learning experience - add the wasabi slowly til you have enough, rather than making a guess.
3. Generally I encounter sake either refrigerated or hot, but room-temperature isn't, for me, any harder to drink, it's just a bit less nice. That said, i'm one of those destined-to-be-alcoholic types that can drink anything quickly... It's quite possible you just don't get on well with sake - it's quite common. ~ mazca ^t|c 20:29, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict with above. My numbers don't exactly match your questions. Oh well)I am a huge sushi fan, and have these general tips for you...

1. Rule number 1 is always ignore what everyone else tells you. If you have a way to enjoy the food which is enjoyable to you, do it. If you don't like sake, and like beer or wine or Coca Cola instead, drink that. Its your food, and anyone who tells you you are eating it wrong is being pedantic and stuck up.
2. As far as the chopsticks question, I generally break the chopsticks close to the point where they are attached, instead of just pulling apart at the free end. I hold the chopsticks far enough up that if they don't "split" correctly, the uneven ends don't effect how I use them. You could also just eat Sushi with your hands; most people in Japan do this anyways. Sushi is essentially street food; no one looks for a fork and knife when eating a hot dog. Its why good sushi restaurants give you that hot towel to clean your hands with. I personally use chopsticks, and many do, but it isn't required.
3. I try to play around with the amount of Wasabi. Sometimes I eat the piece without Wasabi, then try it with, etc. Play around with it; again see rule 1. As far as adding too much Wasabi to the soy sauce; your only remedy is to dilute it with more soy sauce.
4. This page Sushi Eating for Dummies explains some of the common traditions when eating Sushi. Some of these are a mere courtesy towards your host (such as not rubbing your chopsticks together) and are probably a good idea to follow; others fall under my "rule 1" above.

Good luck! Sushi is one of my favorite foods, and its always good to see others enjoying it as well! --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:44, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

If you do that with the chopsticks by accident, you can usually just break off the doubled-up portion of the chopstick and have a matching pair of short-but-serviceable chopsticks (depends on where the break happened). Darkspots (talk) 20:47, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

The thing about not rubbing your chopsticks together is more true for if you're using "real" chopsticks. If you're using cheap disposables, go ahead and give them a quick rub against each other to remove any splinters or fibres. Matt Deres (talk) 13:36, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Regarding wasabi and soy - treat those like salt and pepper. Taste the food first to see if it needs it! A good sushi chef in a good sushi place will have already flavored the food the way he thinks is just right; maybe he knows something you don't about the combination he's prepared. (On the other hand, in America so many people are in the habit of automatically dipping in wasabi-laced soy that many chefs leave the food bland, knowing whatever subtlety they attempt will be wasted.)

However, if you do like the soy-and-wasabi mixture (like I do when I'm in a less than first class restaurant), here's a trick. Rather than pouring the soy in a dish and then adding wasabi, which results in little clumps of wasabi and an inconsistent texture, first put the wasabi in the dish. Then add a little bit of soy. Mix it up. Then add a little bit more soy. Repeat until satisfied with result. You get a gradually thinning, consistently textured emulsion, exactly as strong as you desire.

Different types of sake want different temperatures. Cheap sake is usually drunk warm; other sake is drunk room temperature, while my favorites are drunk chilled. (As is the unpasteurized variety, which I don't like at all.)

And as everyone says, ignore all rules. Eat with your fingers if you prefer. Or a fork. Tastes the same when it hits the mouth. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:58, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

October 21

Watching the US election from abroad

I live in Asia, and I've been following the upcoming election eagerly for the last year or so through various online sources (mostly news clips from youtube and shows like The Daily Show) and I'm wondering now if there is any way I might be able to follow the precedings live on election day over the internet. I am liberal and I don't have much favourable to say about the big US news outlets, so I'd like to avoid networks like CNN if possible, and Fox and Friends at all costs. I don't think CNN streams live over the internet anyway? Thanks in advance! 124.154.253.49 (talk) 04:24, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

CNN does seem to have a link on their page to "live video", but it isn't working for me in Firefox even with the extra plugin whatever it is... hmmm. 124.154.253.49 (talk) 04:42, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Based on your IP address, you are in Japan. Since you mentioned you are a liberal (a classical liberal?), I recommend listening to WBAI from here in New York over the internet as they usually have a live stream; I listen to WBAI semi-regularly and you can also download programming for future use. Here is a link to the streaming page. --Blue387 (talk) 04:45, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll check that out. Hopefully I'll be able to find some sort of video stream though. I'm guess I'm more of a leftist than a liberal; I don't relate to any party. Also, it's not such a big deal that the broadcast be leftist, I just don't want to subject myself to... well, you know. 124.154.253.49 (talk) 05:03, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I remember that during the 06 midterms a google search of "election coverage" gave very well-vetted results. I think google even had an election center with a live streaming "google map" of results as they came in. Yahoo had one as well. I'm sure (seeing as this is going to be such a huge election) they will be doing it all to an even greater degree. Including the major networks and CNN's site. NByz (talk) 05:23, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

If you're looking for web coverage based outside the US 9and therefore at least likely to be slightly less biased one way or the other) then you could do worse than checking out what's on offer at the BBC's US election news pages. It's likely they'll have live as-it-happens coverage. Grutness...wha? 05:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Just a little food for thought. In the 1960 election many people who tracked the debates on the radio believed Nixon would win. While those that watched TV believed, more so, in Kennedy. It's just my opinion that public appearance, of any form, and polatics should be kept apart. President Lula can bearly read. Although he's one of the best presidents Brazil's ever had, a man like him wouldn't stand a chance in the US.HitmanNumber86 (talk) 07:11, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Lula's done alot for Brazil, but whether or not he's "one of the best president's Brail's ever had" depends alot on who you ask. And there are alot of foreign officials who wouldn't stand a chance in the US. I saw Fareed Zakaria talk a few months ago and--making a general point that the US doesn't make any attempt to take any lessons from what works and what doesn't work in the world at large--Fareed raised the example of Nicolas Sarkozy who, according to him, effectively ran on the platform that 'France should be more like Great Britain.' Can you even imagine a US politician running on the platform that the US should be more like Canada? Political campaigns are driven by public appearances. I'd like to hear your vision of a political campaign featuring an invisible candidate. --71.178.135.144 (talk) 07:32, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

By the way, "a lot" is two words, not one. 80.254.147.52 (talk) 13:14, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Brazilian politics aside, I'd like to go back to the original question. I don't quite understand why it matters what source you're looking at on the day since they'll all be reporting the same outcomes. Who becomes the next president doesn't change whether you watch FOX or CNN. Whether you go to the ballpark or watch the game on ESPN, the same teams win or lose. Dismas|^(talk) 07:50, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

People watch the media they are comfortable with. If I wanted to get coverage of a British election result, I would buy the Guardian rather than the Sun. Same with TV channels. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:58, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure npr.org will be streaming live coverage of the election night. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 20:29, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

(I am OP, my IP has probably changed) HitmanNumber86: While in principle, the candidate's appearance in public shouldn't matter towards their electibility, the truth is that the majority of USians will be/have been watching them on telly-tube and thus appearance does/will/has mattered to them. There is no question that a candidate's eloquence is a factor in their favourability. I choose not to let that affect my judgement, but it's not my individual opinion that matters in the end, so I would like to have some perspective. Dismas: It does matter what source I'm watching when some have a habit of referring to certain candidates in ways that would make me want to break my computer screen. Thanks everyone for the suggestions. 124.154.253.49 (talk) 23:10, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Might I put in a plug for C-SPAN? (Full disclosure: I work for them.) Lot's of interesting video and other stuff at http://www.c-span.org/politics/ . —D. Monack ^talk 01:56, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

After watching all three debates recorded off of C-SPAN (on YouTube) I never thought to look and see if they had live coverage on their website. D : Thanks for that, C-SPAN will do just fine! 124.154.253.49 (talk) 04:27, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Reverse address homeowner/leaseholder lookup

I'm looking for the homeowner or leaseholder of a specific address in California. I need to find the homeowner or leaseholder of that address, specifically. All the reverse lookup websites I find tell me the name on the account number of the landline registered to the address. I know this because they keep telling me I live there. I currently live in Illinois and recently recieved a final notice on a landline account I never opened. When I was stationed in MCAGCC Twentynine Palms my information got tossed around so much it could have been any of the Marines stationed there at the time. You can see my predicament. I would like to clarify that I'm not asking a legal question. Where can I find a service (preferably free) that will allow me to do a reverse address lookup, that does not use the account holder name for the registered phone number, but the name on the homeowner/leaseholder contract?24.15.218.104 (talk) 05:29, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

You should be able to find out via the property tax registry. You didn't tell us the city/town/county that the address is in - so it's hard to be specific. But (for example), I live in Williamson county in Texas - so I can type "Williamson county appraisal district" into Google and find http://www.wcad.org/ - clicking on the obvious links on that site leads me to a search facility for that county. There I can search by address, enter my home address - and right there, up comes my name - my home address (which might not be the same as the address of the property). Hopefully, a bit of digging around will find that information for your district too. SteveBaker (talk) 09:29, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. I did the same search that you did and found out that I'm actually 15 years older than I thought I was.  :-/ Dismas|^(talk) 10:27, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Probably San Bernardino County. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 10:01, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm - then there is a problem: The San Bernadino equivalent of the site I mentioned here in William's county, Texas is http://nppublic.co.san-bernardino.ca.us/newpims/PimsInterface.aspx - which lets you search by property parcel number, tract number - and all sorts of other weird things - but not by address. In their FAQ, they say:

• Question: Why can't we search by address on this website?
• Answer: California Government Code 6254.21 restricts the posting of addresses on the internet. Providing a search mechanism would defeat the intent of this legislation since the names are listed on the site.
• Question: Since this website has so many restrictions because of California Government Code 6254.21, what options do I have?
• Answer: You have two options if you want more information than is provided on this website.
  1. You can go to your nearest San Bernardino County Assessor office and use a kiosk. The kiosk has a version of this website which includes the ability to search by property owner names, search by property situs address, view maps etc.
  2. The Assessor provides an application that is not constrained by 6254.21, it is a subscription based application which runs on your Microsoft Windows based computers. The application is called PIMSINQUIRYSERVICE. Contact the assessors office for more information.

I guess that covers your options. (Just in case you Californians are feeling happy that your state government is protecting your privacy - I should explain that Code 6254.21 only protects the names and addresses of government employees and elected officials...the office of the assessor only hides everyone's addresses because they can't be bothered to sort out who is a government employee and who isn't!)

SteveBaker (talk) 10:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks guys. Although, I did come up with the idea, last night, of calling his neighbors and asking who lives next door. I have a pretty good idea of who it might be. What was really weird was, I got the information yesterday, and around ten at night I got a strange call from the same area code. It turned out to be on of the other Marines I used to work with. I told him my shpeil and he gave me a couple names that live in the town in question.HitmanNumber86 (talk) 17:49, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Costs of a phone-call, post being transferred (in the UK)

If I call a 'local' number (say a 1p a minute number) and speak with them for 2 minutes, but then they transfer me through to an 0845 (or say a 50p minute phone-line) and speak with those for 5 minutes what would you expect I would be charged? Would it be...2p for local + 250p for call-centre = 252p? Or would it be 350p (50p x 7 minutes) or would it be 7p (1p x 7 minutes)? I guess the first one, but just wondered if there were any rules regarding 'charges' when using transferring a call? (I.e. I never put the phone down but have effectively spoken to 1 person at local rate and another at 'call centre' rate). 194.221.133.226 (talk) 10:28, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Just a related comment: I try never to use 0845 numbers (expensive) so I check with www.SAYNOTO0845.com, it must have saved me a bundle over the years.--Artjo (talk) 11:47, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how the British system works, but in the US, you are billed based on the number you called. I suspect the British system is similar, because the telephone switching equipment can't switch you between numbers once the call has been connected, only between different lines at the same number. --Carnildo (talk) 22:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

0845 IS local rate. You mean 0870 or some such.--ChokinBako (talk) 10:42, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe but they still play you music ad infinitum, and/or keeping you hanging on to rack up the charges. The web page I referred to above gives you alternative (UK) geographical or 0800 (free call) numbers.--Artjo (talk) 12:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

0845 might be "local rate", but that's not the same thing as the rate for a local number. The simple two-tier local/national rates went away a long time ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.187.153.189 (talk) 20:21, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Old Bottle

Have found an old brown bottle with the wording embossed on the side "Guys of B'ham" and the stopper has "war grade" written on it, cannot find anything in Google etc. anyone know anything about this company? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.67.57.187 (talk) 10:29, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

It would be short for Guys of Birmingham and given your IP that would probably be the UK one. Do you have a picture of the bottle or any idea of what it might of contained? CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 10:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I was naive enough to try a google web search for Guys of Birmingham. What an eye-opener! -- Q Chris (talk) 11:05, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Eeek! Me too!...although it was more of an "eye closer" than "eye opener"! :-O SteveBaker (talk) 12:20, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I haven't done the search, but I picture some British version of Fredericks of Hollywood. Is that wrong of me? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 11:29, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Our questioner has an IP address that suggests Europe - so probably we're talking about Birmingham, England - not Birmingham, Alabama. So "war grade" suggests a date probably during the first or second world war. What comes in a bottle that's graded differently in wartime and needs to be kept in a brown bottle? Beer is the most likely candidate - and a Google search for "War Grade" beer turned up this reference which is about World War II in the UK and includes the line: "I have recovered a bottle, the top of which I noticed sticking out of the soil. It is a beer bottle named ORIGINAL BREWERY Co Lt CHELTENHAM. The cap is engraved WAR GRADE.". So this makes it pretty certain that our OP's bottle is a British beer bottle from the second world war. I also found that during the war: "No white flour is sold or used in Britain. The mills are all controlled by the Government and all flour is now war grade, which means it is made of about 70 per cent white flour and other grains, rye, corn (which we call maize), barley, rice-flour, etc ., are added.". It seems likely that such shortages of particular grains would force unusual formulations on beer brewers also. Presumably the brewery would want to make it clear that the unusual taste of this particular bottle of beer was because it used "War Grade" ingredients and that customers should not think badly of the brand because of that. So - all that remains is to ask whether "Guys" was ever a brewery...but searches for Guys Brewery and Guys Beer didn't turn up anything convincingly appropriate. SteveBaker (talk) 12:20, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Googling [8] eventually got me to "Edkins and Guy", a pub cum brewery in Sparkbrook / B´ham , apparently long defunct. PS: Ms Guy was a lady, which may explain the Google results mentioned above. PS2: The brief article on it may indicate that we are talking about WW I, by the way. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 12:45, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

"Pub cum brewery?" Edison (talk) 14:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Microbrewery. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:49, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Roughly, although that term isn't used in the UK. Some pubs in the UK have (or had, it's less common now, I think) their own brewery, that's all "pub cum brewery" means ("cum" being Latin for "with", I believe). --Tango (talk) 17:29, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it does mean that. These days, you'd be more likely to see "pub and brewery", cf. "bar and grill" etc, because "cum" has come to mean something else, the details of which I won't get into. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:32, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not just a British-english usage: summa cum laude - passed with distinctions.

It's usually confined to Latin expressions such as this, rather than being part of the English language proper. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

In US-english, yes - but in British-english it's quite common to say A-cum-B to suggest that the A is somehow converted into a B or that the subject shares the attributes of an A and a B. So you might (I suppose) talk about a hybrid-technology car as being petrol-cum-battery powered - or an administrator in a small company might be their accountant-cum-human-resources person. I agree that this usage is becoming rarer than it was - but I still hear it quite a bit when I talk with fellow Brits. SteveBaker (talk) 12:47, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Disaster Management

Can you give a brief description of what the relationship between prevention, mitigation preparedness, response, and recovery —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.207.35.245 (talk) 12:04, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I can, but I won't, because I believe this to be a homework question and my desire to do your homework for you is just about as great as your desire to come over and wash my underwear for me. As far as homework goes, I'm strictly quid pro quo, Buckaroo. (You may, however, be interested in Emergency management. That little tip is worth about one pair of socks. Better hop to it, too, I'm almost out of clean pairs.) -- Captain Disdain (talk) 12:13, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Well if you have perfect prevention you don't need any mitigation, preparedness, response, or recovery. (I suggest you don't put that in your homework) -- Q Chris (talk) 12:34, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

report help!!! (Review of existing programmes)

i need some help, i have to do a report but im struggling with one of the documentaries i have to review http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7623005.stm , in my brief it says "pick 4 factual programmes and explain how they differ in terms of form, style and treatment ( do not refer to content" , i just dont know what i am suppose to write about.

One of my main problems is i dont know what type of documentary it is (The Undcover Soldier), whether it is event doc, doc account, doc journey or fly-on-the-wall??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.121.130 (talk) 12:28, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm taking it that event, account, journey, and fly-on-the-wall are types of documentaries you're studying in your course. A good way to clarify those definitions is to talk to your professor/teacher, or to others in your class -- work through your understandings of the terms to clarify them. I haven't seen The Undercover Soldier, but just going by the labels you provide: an event documentary to me would center on a point in time (the 9/11 attacks, the Quebec plebiscite on independence). An account to me would recreate someone's personal experience (telling the story of discrimination through the words of W. E. B. Dubois). Journey seems less clear, but I'm imagining something like an attempt to recreate the voyages of Odysseus or to build a pyramid using only techniques known to the Egyptians). Fly-on-the-wall would, I think, recreate a past event, sticking as closely as possible to words and documents of the time. But, I'm not in your class. --- OtherDave (talk) 13:51, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Fly on the wall is where the camera follows some events as they happen, trying to disturb the events as little as possible with its presence. It's the kind of documentary that The Office is spoofing. But seriously, dude, go and ask your teacher, not some random people on the internet. Contrary to popular opinion teachers are there to help you learn, and if you didn't understand something they said they are almost always willing to explain it. And no, you won't lose marks for asking questions. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:13, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

In fact, a student who shows an interest by asking questions is probably going to leave a better impression than one who doesn't. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 14:27, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Really, really, REALLY sharp sword question

I watched a movie where this one dude had a sword that could cut through anything (no, it wasn't a lightsaber, it was an honest-to-god metal sword.) Later in the movie the dude explained that the sword's cutting edge was only one atom thick, enabling it to cut through all but the most dense of solids. If, hypothetically, we had the technology to do this, would this work? 31306D696E6E69636B6D (talk) 13:53, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Superthin blades like that would probably be effective... if you could keep the blade intact. The problem with something that thin, though, is that it doesn't have much strength. Any force not in the plane of the blade destroys it. Larry Niven worked around this in his Ringworld books by putting the blade in a "stasis field", but then we're back into the realm of the completely imaginary. — Lomn 14:37, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

If it did work, you would probably blunt the blade extremely quickly. --Tango (talk) 14:50, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

As a point of interest, a similar concept is monomolecular wire, which has been featured in various science fiction settings, typically consisting of a single strand of molecules. Whether this would be in any way feasible is, of course, another story. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 15:30, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Even if you allow magic, it's logically impossible for a sword to be able to cut through *anything*, since it could not cut through an identical sword (when struck symmetrically). --Sean 17:17, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

You mean "everything", and I disagree - there's no reason why the two swords can't cut through eachother. --Tango (talk) 17:33, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Why couldn't the two swords simply cut each other at the same time? I mean, logically speaking. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 17:38, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Mythbusters tried sword vs sword (only worked one time) and sword vs gun barrel (busted). Clarityfiend (talk) 22:13, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

As pointed out, the downside to sharpness is usually brittleness (the entire history of sword metallurgy has been a series of ways of minimizing this limitation). You could imagine nanotechnology that would consistently re-form a monomolecular tip of the cutting edge, repairing it and reenforcing it or something like that. We don't have the technology to do this right now though. But given a very fertile imagination about the possibilities of nanotechnology, would could imagine it. It would take energy, though, to operate. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 17:31, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

How sharp/tough do you want it? [9]--GreenSpigot (talk) 17:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

It all comes down to hardness vs strength in a balance of elements and molecular density within' the alloy you choose. If it's concentrated on hardness, a pure carbon, or diamond blade for example, It will hold an edge cutting through anything; although, any form of shock or bending will shatter the blade. If it's concentrated on strength, such as a titanium blade, you can bend it, throw it or hit it with a rock and it will stay intact; but, you will have to sharpen it periodically while avoiding gouges from occuring on the blade edge, and avoiding bending the blade past it's elasticity. The closest you can come to a "perfect blade" would be to use the sandwich method. Cold Steel sells a blade style (Dai Pan, I believe?) that uses high carbon steel sandwiched between standard high grade steel. The idea is that the strong steel protects the hard steel. If you can get a carbon sheet one molocule thick and sandwich it between titanium coated high grade steel (to prevent rust while avoiding bending (aswell the steel grain would have to run with the blade)), then you will have the best and most expensive blade possible. Keep in mind though, diamonds cut diamonds, humans, less their water, are made mostly out of carbon. Thus, your blade would ware slowly, but hold an edge as the titanium recedes faster then the carbon. If anyone were to create a sword like this it would have to be weighted toward the front to have some sort of inertia for slashing rather then just cutting (unless it is intended to be an obcenely large camping tool)(also, weighted towards the front means you can make the hilt weigh less). A blade like this would be much more logical in a dagger. A lengthy, yet well researched response. I've been trying to design the perfect blade for years. This is the best I've come up with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HitmanNumber86 (talk • contribs) 18:33, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on swords, but as far as I know Japanese swords are one of the sharpest and toughest swords in the world. They cut bullets. See [10], [11] and [12]. Oda Mari (talk) 18:45, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Any good cutting implement could cut bullets -- they're usually made out of lead or mild steel. It's simply a matter of getting sufficient leverage. --Carnildo (talk) 23:42, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The japanese did create very efficient methods of creating folded steel, yes. But they are ancient techniques and modern science has surpassed that. Aswell, the japanese katana is nothing but a hunk of steel unless you understand the basic method of using it. A novice will end up giving someone papercuts; while someone who actually trains, on the other hand, can sevre a man in half at the trunk in one clean swipe. The leathality of a sword is based on how you use it, not sharpness. If you want to see some astonashingly good cutting blades look up "Japanese Cutlery." As for cutting bullets, lead and copper can split on sheet metal at that velocity. Though the steel core penetrator on an FMJ round will take a good chunk out of any blade. Deflection is the most effective way of evading bullets. HitmanNumber86 (talk) 15:18, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, in Reaper Man, Death sharpens his scythe on silk, cobwebs and eventually light, to make it sharp enough to battle the new Death. Artistic licence is a fun thing...--WORM | MЯOW 09:56, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, great! Now he can take his moms langire a bunch of spiderwebs and a flashlight to his blade.HitmanNumber86 (talk) 15:27, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Paper Cuts song - Feral Child

Hi,

I've heard that the Nirvana song Paper Cuts is based on the story of real life feral children who lived near Kurt Cobain in Seattle. Is this true?

144.32.126.16 (talk) 14:12, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Unlikely. I live in Seattle, and I'm not aware of any feral children here. Some that are neglected, and some that are abused, perhaps, but none that are outright feral. - Jmabel | Talk 23:26, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Identify the shape/symbol/glyph

Hi. Does anyone recognise this? http://www.flickr.com/photos/14517042@N05/2961867648/?eOrig=2961860602

--Rixxin 15:19, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Oops, I didn't see the previous picture in the gallery. It looks like a sharpie doodle on lined paper. If it's your doodle, and you've seen it somwhere before, it would help if you said where. Other then that, your picture's about the doodliest doodly doodable doodle of doodliness I've ever seen. I do the same thing when I'm stoned and find a pencil. HitmanNumber86 (talk) 19:33, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

See labyrinth. —Tamfang (talk) 01:19, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

It looks a little like a corporate logo. I don't know how you'd look it up though. I don't recognise it. Steewi (talk) 02:20, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

It reminds me of the logo of the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty Organization. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:46, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Travelling with a donkey

I plan to, when i am ready, travel with a donkey and cart around Europe and busk... I do have friends who will train the donkey for me and restore a small cart that will I will be able to live in andthat the donkey will be able to carry... My friends are professinals with donkeys so if they say I can do it I believe them but they can't possibly know everything, so I was wondering if what kind of problems other professionals think I may run into beside the obvious ones like food, shelter, weather, etc...? Thankyou 87.111.102.134 (talk) 16:54, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, we're just random volunteers on the internet. If you want a professional opinion you need to ask professionals. --Tango (talk) 17:09, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, ok, random volunteer opinion will be appreciated also 87.111.102.134 (talk) 17:16, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you'll have problems with animal quarantine laws regarding taking your loyal steed across borders? --Sean 17:19, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Did some research on google, but can't find anything in english about quarantine laws throughout europe 87.111.102.134 (talk) 17:32, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Keep away from windmills, Sancho. You may need some documentation for your quadruped when crossing borders. Check with the departement of agriculture / trade / embassies / whoever is relevant for stuff you need. Circuses are travelling through Europe with loads of animals, so it must be possible.

Good luck! --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:04, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Depending on where you are in Europe and where you want to go, I would expect your biggest issue will be crossing the English Channel. I don't remember provision for farm animals on either the Channel Tunnel or cross-channel ferries. DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:29, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

EC: As mentioned in Busking, it is illegal (or requiring a permit) in many places. In many cases, laws or by-laws aren't enforced very tightly, as evident by the prevalence of buskers in certain locations. Having a fairly large live animal with you may attract extra attention and provoke authorities into a corner of having to instruct you to leave, since it is sort of one step beyond what is normally accepted. /Coffeeshivers (talk) 18:33, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

These people tried working with a donkey (or was it a jackass?), but things didn't work out so well... Clarityfiend (talk) 22:36, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I would work with donkeys in an animal sanctuary first,they are not always easy to handle or understand.Frankly,I'd rather use a small pony.I would say your worse problem will be shoeing.There are no longer handy blacksmiths in every village and going without shoes will soon lame the donkey.. The next biggest problem may well be other road users.Being unused to horse/donkey drawn carts, they often get too close or honk their horns scareing the donkey.No animal can be 100% reliable in traffic.Food would be a third worry to me,you can't work a donkey on a few hours grazing ,you need hard food and that means carrying about 5 or six pounds of food per day.I doubt you can buy horse fodder at the local supermarkets.I would also find out the local language words for vetinary problems,not something you'll find in most phrasebooks which will be no use if you can't say "my donkey is dying of colic ,what do I do?".It sounds fun but it's a huge undertaking.I would doubt my ability to do it and I've worked with horses for 30 years and know how to drive one.hotclaws 05:49, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Taking all the above into account, why not consider starting with baby steps first such as touring southern Ireland - The Republic of Ireland - Eire - the 26 counties? There they have a long affinity with horses/donkeys/mules/asses and you can still see many Gypsy Caravans (both genuine and tourist) clip-clopping along the more rural roads. You can even hire the steed and the caravan and be sure of resting places and fodder stops along the way. And you will more than likely pick up a lot of useful advice and tips for future journeys along the way. Who knows, it might even serve to entirely discourage you from following in the wake of a horse's ass ever again - unless you choose to work for my old boss in the British Civil Service that is? 92.20.213.111 (talk) 13:31, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

You may have seen it already, but I can recommend the book Spanish Steps by Tim Moore (writer), which describes his pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela with a pack donkey. OK, no cart, and it's a humorous, self-deprecating travel book narrative rather than a how-to, but there is a lot of good solid stuff in there about donkey-type problems encountered and solved, including finding a donkey, and dealing with their health and food on the road. If nothing else it will provide a taste of the realities you will face. Karenjc 21:31, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

myonis

Meaninig of the word Myonis

Was said to be a name used for the island of Cyprus, or a greek island rich in Copper, claimed to be "Cyprus"

Also a trademarked name belonging to laptopshop.co.uk a computer reseller who use the name on a range of laptop batteries and accessories —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrkingsley (talk • contribs) 17:20, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't show up in the Greek dictionary... --Masamage ♫ 17:46, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

This [13] (and three or four other sources) agrees that Myonis was an ancient term for Cyprus. The text implies that this name may have been used during the Bronze Age. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:14, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

PS: This would have been prior to classical Greek, ie Proto-Greek language or Mycenaean Greek language / Linear B. I guess that there are not that many dictionaries for this era. I found a few links showing the glyphs of the Linear B syllabary, but that does not help with a translation. Maybe some ancient philologist with relevant wisdom will totter by and find the answer. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Missiles

How much do missiles generally cost? Is it possible to buy one, with the warhead removed, of course? JIP | Talk 18:05, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Is that you Osama?

You can buy them for a few pounds (and you get to keep the warhead). Or did you have something more substantial in mind? Algebraist 18:11, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

More like something like this. I'm just trying to find out if it's possible, out of curiosity. JIP | Talk 18:19, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, the infobox in that article says "Unit cost: $569,000". You should probably aim your sights a little lower if you want to buy a missile on ebay! A more modest (deactivated) missile might be affordable and available (I don't know if they can be deactivated well enough to be allowed to sell them to civilians in a developed country - the black market in the middle-east probably has loads of the things, though). --Tango (talk) 18:32, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Importing one into Finland might raise an eyebrow or two. Darkspots (talk) 18:37, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

When it comes to cruise missiles you don't stand a fireballs chance in the ocean of getting one. Military ordinace is extreamly well tracked (even every AT4 is serialized). Keep in mind missile is still a vague term. I'm sure that you may be able to find an unguided missile used for meteorological purposes. With technology and knowledge general population has avalable to them nowadays you can build a missile to carry you into orbit (Though I'm not sure NORAD or NASA would be too happy). Your best bet is to go with somthing like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nODbeAAG5Oc (I apologize for not being too computer savvy).HitmanNumber86 (talk) 19:21, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

It all depends on who you are and what you are buying. When the USAF switched from using regular daylight TV cameras to infra-red cameras in their Maverick missiles - they sold their remaining stock of thousands of missiles to pretty much any friendly country for about the cost of crating them up and shipping them - just hundreds of dollars per missile...complete with warheads, targetting computers, etc. On the other hand, there are modern air-to-ground missiles that are so expensive that the cost of them considerably exceeds the cost of the thing they are intended to destroy. However, everything about a typical missile is either secret or dangerous. Even the propellant is pretty nasty stuff - so if you WERE able to pick one up, it would almost certainly be a hollow tube with nothing left inside. The cost of safely removing the innards of a missile like that would certainly exceed the cost you'd be prepared to pay for it - it's cheaper for them to destroy the whole thing than to mess around stripping out the guts and selling the airframe to collectors and enthusiasts. So there probably aren't going to be a whole lot of them out there on the open market. That said, your best bet would be to try to find a Russian army surplus store someplace - it's amazing the stuff they sell in those places. SteveBaker (talk) 20:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Nobody is going to sell you a Tomahawk missile — those are export-controlled technology for good reason. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 21:04, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Note, that if you really wanted to pursue this, what you'd search for is a "trainer" casing, which is a dummy casing created just for training, and never had classified or dangerous material inside it. When you see nuclear weapons bandied about at museums (like this one) they are usually "trainers". They say things like "Training only" on them. But even then I doubt they'd sell one to you. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 21:50, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

For only $38000 there's the FIM-92 Stinger, even without a warhead a missile is a dangerous weapon. They'd be more likely to sell you one with an intact warhead and everything related to propulsion or guidance removed. The warhead could easily be replaced by something any explosive of the same weight and you've got a fully functional missile, there's even several warhead designs on wikipedia: Continuous-rod warhead. -- Mad031683 (talk) 00:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Go to Afghanistan, there should still be some Stingers hanging around from the Afghan-Soviet war, and I'd bet you could get a better price. You'd probably be sent to Guantanamo if you try to get back to the West, but hey - all in good fun. zafiroblue05 | Talk 10:48, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Bruce Simpson built a cruise missile for about $5000, but it annoyed the New Zealand government. --Sean 15:22, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Watchmaker

I am a 17 year old living in the UK. I am currently doing my A2 levels, and have 12 GCSEs. I want to know how I would go about becoming a watchmaker. I live in the Leicestershire area. Are there any apprenticeships availiable or would I be better off visiting some of the watchmakers and asking them?

Thanks 84.13.149.14 (talk) 18:59, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The best person to tell you how to become a watchmaker would probably be a watchmaker. I recommend looking for the one with the most years under his belt and asking him. That's how I made my list of schools for gunsmithing, by asking a master gunsmith over thirty years in the trade. HitmanNumber86 (talk) 19:24, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

You might want to start with the Worshipful Company of Clockmakers in the City of London, a City Livery Company. As their website points out, unlike most Livery Companies, most of their members are still working in the field of watch and clockmaking. Sam Blacketer (talk) 21:00, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

They have a section on Horological training on their website. Sam Blacketer (talk) 21:07, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Pictures

How do you find a picture to delete on Wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by WarriorFIRESTAR (talk • contribs) 19:52, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

What picture specifically are you looking for? If you need help deleting a specific picture, we need a link to the file page of that picture. If you are looking in general for lists of pictures that are nominated for deletion, CAT:CSD contains links to subpages of pictures that are nominated for speedy deletion for various reasons associated with our speedy deletion criteria, and WP:IFD contains discussions of images which may need to be deleted, but don't meet speedy deletion criteria. However, the actual act of deleting an image is reserved for administrators at Wikipedia. I hope this answers your questions, if you could be more detailed, perhaps we could be more helpful? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:58, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry! I was trying to ask if I could delete the fruit fly picture on the Allopatric speciation page. - WarriorFIRESTAR —Preceding unsigned comment added by WarriorFIRESTAR (talk • contribs) 20:07, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

If you are trying to remove the image from the article, you can simply find the link to the image name. This is different from deleting the image file from Wikipedia, which is an entirely different process. Just click the "edit this page" tab at the top of the article to edit the text. Then look for the image name you want to remove. It will be titled [[Image:yadayadayada.jpg|thumb|right]] or something like that. Just remove the text between and including the brackets. It would be a very good idea if you would leave a note on the article talk page (the discussion tab) explaining exactly why you thought it important to remove the picture. Thats a fairly drastic change to the article, and people are going to want to know your rationale. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:15, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

October 22

Wikipedia Homepage Organization

Why is Spanish on the top right of Wikipedia's homepage --where Deutsch(German) should be at?

Spanish only has 400,000+ articles, while German has 800,000+ articles.

The language with the most articles should be place on top of the languages with fewer articles.

MrZhuKeeper (talk) 04:43, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't have any source to back this up but I would venture a guess that Spanish is the most popular second language in otherwise English speaking countries. And also, due to the fact that Wikipedia was started by Americans (correct me if I'm wrong) they chose the second most popular language in the US to take that spot. Dismas|^(talk) 07:04, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I also don't know the answer. But do you have an authoritative source for the claim that "The language with the most articles should be place on top of the languages with fewer articles"? It sounds like a personal opinion to me. --ColinFine (talk) 07:44, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

There was a recent decision, forget where I saw it, that the order would be by the number of readers rather than articles, which had previously determined the order.John Z (talk) 09:12, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

If they gave out the rankings based on pure enthusiasm, Esperanto would be in the top left corner. It blows me away that a language spoken by fewer than 2 million people worldwide has 100,000 articles in their wikipedia. English is spoken by 1.8 billion people and we only have 2.5 million articles. Darkspots (talk) 13:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2008_August_1#New_Wikipedia.org_organization--132.206.22.13 (talk) 17:14, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The decision (which seems very logical to me) was to order them by the number of visitors (according to http://www.alexa.com rankings) - not by the number of contributors or by the number of articles or anything of that sort. Evidently, while the Spanish speaking world is not as enthusiastic about writing articles as the German speaking world - they do actually USE Wikipedia more frequently than German speakers do. It was generally considered to be better to organise the list by utility (greatest use for greatest number of people) than to reward active wikipedians or something of that sort. After all, who can say that the greater number of articles in German are necessarily of better quality - or relate to more useful topics than the Spanish version? In the end, the readership are the people who matter...if they find Wikipedia useful then we can help visitors out by listing the national versions that the greatest number of people wish to visit. Hence the Wikipedia's that are in the top ten list are the top ten most visited.

For those who are amazed at the number of articles in some of the more obscure Wikipedia's, it's important to realize that in some of these languages, the VAST majority of the articles are bot-generated from some kind of bulk source data. It's very easy to write a piece of software that takes (for example) lists of data for towns and cities in the USA from public databases and automatically generates an article in some language for every single city. That kind of automation gets you an enormous number of articles for almost zero effort. Some of the language versions that have been deleted (Klingon, for example(!)) were removed despite having more articles than other languages precisely because their inflated article counts were due to bot-manufactured pages. Even in English Wikipedia, you'll notice that articles about very small towns in the USA are almost word-for-word identical with each other - but with the salient facts about them inserted into the appropriate places. That's because all of those articles started off life as bot-generated boilerplate in the very early days of Wikipedia. Compare (for example) our articles on Springfield, Jackson County, Wisconsin and Springfield, St. Croix County, Wisconsin - they are almost word-for-word identical! Now let's take a look at the West Frisian language wikipedia - it has almost 10,000 articles - yet there are less than 100,000 people who can write the language with any kind of fluency. Let's look at their article on Illinois - it's perhaps a little surprising that the inhabitants of an island off the coast of the Netherlands would have taken the time to write such a comprehensive treatment about a US state...but go take a look at the article - it has the exact same structure as the Aragonese wikipedia's article here. Aragonese has maybe 10,000 speakers who all live in a couple of towns in the mountainous regions of Spain - we have over 10,000 articles written in that language - more articles than people who speak the language!! Clearly the same bot wrote both articles - and it's obviously the exact same bot that wrote the English article on Springfield, Jackson County, Wisconsin.

SteveBaker (talk) 12:38, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Although Friesland is a province not an island - its still quite small. Rmhermen (talk) 23:43, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Taxes (IRS)

Does anyone knows what happens when you file your taxes late? A family member manages an athlete and they received the IRS in their home country until May. They mailed them to the IRS on May but they have yet to hear back. Whats the latest you can possibly be and still have everything go through? Keep in mind that the earner was in the US on a visa and resides overseas. Any bit of information will help. Thanks! Brusegadi (talk) 06:02, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

How to Contact the IRS has an international contact section. Darkspots (talk) 09:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

From www.irs.gov:

If you are a United States citizen or resident, whose home and
main place of business or post of duty is outside the United States
and Puerto Rico on the due date of your return, you are allowed an
automatic extension until June 15, to file your return and pay any
tax due. This also applies if you are in military or naval service on
duty outside the United States and Puerto Rico.

This is in a section that is conditional on your tax year ending Dec 31. It is not entirely clear from this section what the deadline is if you're a fiscal-year filer whose home and main place of business is outside the US. I am just quoting here; this should not be considered advice of any kind and I could even have made editing errors, so if you want to be sure you should go to the site yourself. --Trovatore (talk) 19:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, actually, on rereading your question, it looks like this is not your situation, though it's a bit hard to tell from the way you phrase it. --Trovatore (talk) 19:24, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, taking advice from random strangers at a website regarding tax law is a fantastically bad idea. Contact the IRS, a certified public accountant, or a tax lawyer if you really want to know. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:46, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Very true, which is why I limited myself to quoting the official IRS site directly. --Trovatore (talk) 20:09, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all. BTW, I was not strictly seeking advice, just curious to see if I would find an experience that would make a good beginning. Taxes in the US are complicated. Thanks again, Brusegadi (talk) 04:44, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Effect of heat on food

How does heat add taste and flavour to food items61.2.235.1 (talk) 09:24, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Cooking is a little thin but covers this subject. Darkspots (talk) 10:19, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

It's a little vague on what you mean by heat? Do you mean like higher temperatures or do you mean pungency? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 10:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Mostly it's by various decomposition reactions in the food as it's heated - things like Maillard reactions, in which various components of the foods react and decompose to form new compounds that, to our tastebuds, are more flavoursome. If you're interested in this kind of thing some of the books by Hervé This are very interesting. ~ mazca ^t|c 11:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

12 year old girl tricks con-man

Hi I was wondering if any one would be able to help me locate an article please? Sorry that it's incredibly vague, but it's all I have to go on: Around 3-7 years ago it was reported in a number of papers (possibly including JAMA (Journal of American Medical Association) and the Economist) that a 12 year old girl had devised a trick that refuted a man's claims that he was able to devise something about someone, by doing something. Any help would be very much appreciated! Many thanks. 147.188.28.99 (talk) 10:17, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I tried searching the JAMA database, but there aren't many keywords to go upon: 12, girl, man, trick, con, that's about it. I couldn't find anything, sorry. zafiroblue05 | Talk 10:44, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Try Emily Rosa, the youngest person to ever publish in the JAMA. APL (talk) 13:04, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The Ref Desk and its contributors constitute an amazing search engine. Edison (talk) 14:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

APL - Thank you so much! That's amazing that you managed to find that so quickly! Thanks again, really appreciated.147.188.28.99 (talk) 15:59, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

type of music

There is a Type O Negative album called world coming down. On this album in the song White Slavery they have mixed in the sound of a tap dripping, but mixed it so that the drips are in different keys and therefore play a tune or melody. Also on this album they have mixed all sorts of sounds to create a musical journey of sorts. It cannot be described fully in words, you just have to hear it. Then there is a Devin Townsend album called Ocean Machine Biomech, this album, while not being the same type of music, has the same feel, it has been mixed and edited, mixed and edited over and over with strange sounds woven into it. What type of mixing is this or what type of music, how does one get these effects, I have mixed my albums 'till I am blue in the face but to no avail. It is almost as if there are no gaps in the music atall, even in the empty spaces there is something happening. What is this called, how is it achieved? Sorry if this is vague, but if you listen to these two albums you will immediatly see what I am talking about. Please help, Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 14:30, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

As far as I am aware the type of music is 'experimental'. We studied similar pieces to those you are speaking of in music when I was at school. Other pieces used far less technology to get the sound but the main distiguishing feature was a very abnormal sound, especially for western music. Hope this helps Weazelcheese (talk) 21:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Fox deterrent

Is there a proven way of deterring the local fox population from eating my chickens? I have heard of ultrasonic deterrents, but these may affect my dog. Does anyone have any successful experiences of deterring foxes? Thanks! sparkl_!sm ^hey! 16:40, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Sporting goods stores often carry things like the scent of coyote urine, etc., which can deter smaller predators. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 17:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

My sister's chicken coop stands on a concrete plinth, making it impossible for the local foxes to dig under the coop's walls when the chickens are in for the night. Either that, or it's the scent of her 3 dogs that deters foxes from coming into the garden. Astronaut (talk) 21:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Hardware cloth of 1/4 inch mesh will, per this site [14] keep out snakes, birds, mice and other little varmints, and would certainly keep out foxes from getting into a chicken house through windows. A fox trying to pass through hardware cloth would strain himself badly. With 1/2 inch mesh it would be cheaper. Chicken wire has a larger mesh still, and is a lighter built product, but cheaper. Some predators like raccoons can reach through it and grab poultry if they venture near. [Chain-link fencing]] comes in rolls for protecting a perimeter around a chicken yard so they can go out and scratch in a "free-range" manner. Remember to latch the gate and avoid setting objects or trees near the fence a fox can use to climb over. Hardware cloth or other metal can be buried along the perimeter to prevent digging under. A good dog tethered outside the chicken yard can alert you to come and deal with any thing which threatens the chickens. I am skeptical that an ultrasonic device would repel hungry predators without upsetting the protected animals. Edison (talk) 22:14, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, just buy a wire fence and put fox urine on it to stop 'em. - hope it works-Warriorscourge (talk) 04:02, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not convinced fox urine repels foxes. Wouldn't fox hunter or Foxhound urine be more likely to scare them away? Edison (talk) 04:43, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

No. Foxes mark territory by urinatining. THAT'S why I chose that method. Oh, and, it doesen't scare them. -Warriorscourge (talk) 05:01, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

How the hell do you get hold of fox urine??!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.4.187.55 (talk) 07:16, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

First,catch your fox.... Lemon martini (talk) 10:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Google "fox urine". Click on top hit. Choose the form of fox urine you want (raw pee, granules, spray, etc). Enter credit card info. Darkspots (talk) 07:33, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I assume you are referring to foxes catching the chickens while they forage during the day. A way I'd like someone to try is to place a trap inset into the fence of the chicken pen to catch the fox. Dont kill the fox or you will just get another one. Give the fox a memorable bad experience such as shouting at it and throwing water at it before releasing. I have never heard of any urine deterrent for foxes actually working. From experience I found that foxes will have trouble carrying large chickens over a fence to get away, this gives time for you to rush out and confront them. A good rooster will fight the fox giving you more time. Polypipe Wrangler (talk) 21:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The urine isn't a deterrent. It marks the chicken coop as some other fox's territory. --Carnildo (talk) 22:05, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

...Which deters other foxes ;-) . Ilikefood (talk) 03:34, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

To clarify - my chicken house is set on a concrete base, completely fox-proof. During the day they forage around in their own pen, which is made from 6ft high avairy wire. Problem is, the fox is (I suspect) cunning enough to climb over the back of the chickenhouse, onto the roof and down into the pen. What I want is not to have a completely fox-proof enclosure (he'll always find a way in), but rather to put him off altogether, so he doesn't come anywhere near my garden or the birds. This clever-looking device is more like it, but a) does it work? and b) will it be harmful to my dog?
I have to say there are some splendid ideas above though - thanks!! sparkl_!sm ^hey! 13:02, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Dilution of English as the UK national language?

After a gap of some 40 years when I lived in central London, I just had a week there and was amazed, despite having since lived in Scotland a mere 400 miles away, at how English has to all effects become a "minority language". Every race on earth, every creed and colour, every language imagineable, and every form of dress were very much in evidence, as were their own languages, dialects and accents in everyday useage. What truly amazed me was how many "service" personnel were from ethnic minorities and who simply didn't understand me and/or who couldn't respond in clear English. Add all of that to the fact that "cockney" English is itself quite difficult to the untutored ear, and I was left wondering how long it would take for that great cacophony to morph into something completely "foreign" to standard English speakers, whether UK born or otherwise, whilst perhaps becoming a London specific language all its own? Any suggestions anyone? 92.20.213.111 (talk) 18:27, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the key factor will be what language(s) 2nd-generation immigrants speak. If they learn English at school and use that among their friends, etc. and only use their parent's language at home, then there probably won't be much overall change to the use of language in the country/city. If they primarily use their parent's language, then I think we're likely to end up with discrete sub-communities (or, rather, keep and enlarge the ones we already have) each with their own language and little interaction between them (this is highly undesirable). Generally speaking, languages are constantly changing and migration is one of the major factors in that, English will probably absorb words from the languages of immigrants. At first, those words will be only used locally, but they may spread to the rest of the country over time. --Tango (talk) 19:12, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

A quick look over a Charles Dickens book shows that the language has moved (in written terms) quite a bit since his time, but for the most part it is still decipherable. I suspect that it would take many 100s of years for the english language in London (or elsewhere) to develop/change to such that a random english person in 2008 couldn't decipher most of what is being said by another english speaking person (though admittedly some dialects are easy to comprehend than others). I'm not sure if there is any studies online on language changing like this but can't search as my internet is through my mobile phone and thus ultra-slow (think 56k modem on a bad day) ny156uk (talk) 19:19, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Note: The following are responses to a post that the editor has since withdrawn:

I think what our questioner is saying, though, is that they don't so much "speak the language" as define or decide or influence, to an extent, what that language is that they and everyone else in their broader community speaks. It's a bit like the Uncertainty Principle - the very act of observing a phenomenon changes the phenomenon: the very act of bringing a different linguistic background to a new country changes the way the people in that country speak their own language. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:56, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia, xenophobia is an intense dislike and/or fear of people from other countries. IMO introducing the term xenophobia into this discussion is going well beyond the available evidence. I'm crossing out my comment as it referred to an earlier comment that has since been withdrawn. Wanderer57 (talk) 23:53, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Working in central London, I too am amazed at the variety of languages I hear just walking down the street on an ordinary day. However, according to our article, the population of London speaks over 300 languages; something that contributes to it being the world city that it is. Astronaut (talk) 21:40, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Being the OP, and having just returned to my question to see what if any responses I may have solicited, I am shocked at the appearance of the Xenophobia theme, which appears to have been edited out. For clarity, my question was entirely related to language development in london - and not to race-hate. Readers may have noted my comments about the difficulty of understanding cockney English?? But not having the benefit of reading the edited-out xenophobic comments, I feel deprived of answering any such comments objectively and must leave it therefore to those readers who had sight of them prior to removal. 92.20.213.111 (talk) 23:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The comment mentioning xenophobia was redacted by the person who wrote it. Seems they misunderstood your question. Don't worry about it too much; it happens all the time around here. Astronaut (talk) 23:20, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

That is a common problem in internet discussions. The lack of extratextual cues (not just body language, but tone and cadence as well) sometimes makes it hard to understand the subtext. Plasticup ^T/C 01:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

It's surprising such misunderstandings don't happen more often than they do, given that it's generally considered that non-verbals normally contribute to around 90% of the meaning of a communication, with the words accounting for only about 10%. -- JackofOz (talk) 05:39, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Estuary English might be of interest for you to read, OP. It's not completely relevant, but it does show a trend in the opposite directon to your hypothesis. Steewi (talk) 05:32, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, I know people who are from an entirely English background having difficulty understanding some of the broader Scots accents. I think often when you learn a second language you are even more likely to have difficulty with accents you are not used to; a lot of the people you met may have been able to communicate well with London or South Eastern accents. -- Q Chris (talk) 07:01, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Speaking as someone who works in London, I think it is rather charming that people from so many different cultures and countries want to live and work in our great city. And I certainly appreciate the efforts that they make to learn English, as it is much easier for me to understand their different styles of English than it would be if I had to try to make myself understood in 300 different languages ! Personally, I think the English language is enriched by this diversity, not diluted. Gandalf61 (talk) 08:57, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

it's not just language. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 18:26, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

October 23

Cornell's Reputation

How does Cornell University in Ithaca, New York stand in the world? I know its ranked 14th by QES and generally within top 20 by most ranking bodies. But from an employer's perspective, is it a well-known school with a decent amount of prestige? Specifically, how are the science programs? I would like to go to a good medical school, so I guess the best route to take would be to get a BS in undergrad with a major in one of the sciences? ITGSEETest (talk) 00:50, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, your future employers will have heard of it and will respect it. Short of Harvard, Yale, and Princeton you probably won't find a better school. If you are really into science you might want to consider technical schools like MIT and CalTech, but if you are interested in medicine, medical schools will appreciate the breadth of the Liberal Arts education offered at Cornell. A pre-med track at any Ivy League institution will leave you well prepared for med school. Plasticup ^T/C 01:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 01:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Plasticup's answer is absolutely correct. You don't have to be a biochemistry major to get into medical school, indeed the top American medical schools appreciate having students with diverse undergraduate fields of study, so get into the best school you can get into, major in what you love and make sure you take the required courses to get into med school as your electives. You should probably get Medical School Admission Requirements because every premed student at whatever university you go to will seem to have the knowledge of what courses, etc, that medical schools require tattooed on the back of their retinas—any good university you go to will be able to advise you of what courses to take as well. Darkspots (talk) 08:00, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Children's circle

I have read Whitley Strieber's books called Communion and Transformation and was interested with one thing. What is this "children's circle" that he was talking about? I think it is either a UFOlogy term or Western folklore but I'm not sure since the books usually intersects both UFO's and folklore. Googling doesn't help a lot.--Lenticel ^(talk) 01:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Hal Lipset

Did Hal Lipset speak with an accent? It so what type? Did he have any notable habits?--Pufferfish4 (talk) 02:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm - we don't seem to have an article on this guy - which seems odd because he looks to have been pretty notable. Anyway - everyone has "an accent". I'm British, I live in the USA and absolutely everyone here (with the exception of myself and a few fellow Brit's) have one of a variety of really strong American accents. I, of course, speak completely unaccented English - yet strangely, nearly everyone I meet says "Oh! I just love your accent!"....go figure. SteveBaker (talk) 11:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

That's because we don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are. Actually, Steve, just what is "completely unaccented English"? Seems to me there are a huge number of different accents in Britain, more these days than ever; is any single one of them considered the "standard" English accent? -- JackofOz (talk) 13:47, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I think he was being facetious, hehe, making the point that we all consider our own accent to be "unaccented" until we learn better. I don't even notice my own accent, but other Brits can often place where I live within about 50 miles by it. ~ mazca ^t|c 14:46, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

50 miles, not bad! I remember reading that back in the days before easy travel and recorded media homogenised accents, a trained linguist could tell what street someone from inner London had grown up on. FiggyBee (talk) 15:02, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

See Pygmalion (play), My Fair Lady and My Fair Lady (film). -- JackofOz (talk) 23:07, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

GONE

WarriorFIRESTAR is gone! He was my freind, and I didn't get a chance to talk. How can I find his talk page?!

-Warriorscourge (talk) 03:34, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi! You might be interested in asking further questions at Wikipedia:Help desk. However, the answer is you can still message him at User talk:WarriorFIRESTAR. If you wish to ask the deleting administrator further about why he deleted the page, you might wish to do so; but he provided a short explanation on the bottom of the page. Magog the Ogre (talk) 04:00, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Oil prices

Oil prices have seen a sharp decline in the past several months. I remember hearing a credible argument that it had something to do with oil speculation having fallen (it had something to do with the housing crisis). Or was it something to do with the stabilization of the US dollar? I don't remember, so I'm asking here. :) Magog the Ogre (talk) 03:56, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

These things tend to depend on a number of things. The two that you mention are normally included among the factors that are believed to influence oil prices. I am not so sure about how much speculation has affected prices but the relative strength of the dollar to other currencies does have an effect. The decline can be due to many other things, so the healthy exercise is to think about how certain events may affect the price of oil, but dont try to think as to which events placed the price of oil where it is now. Brusegadi (talk) 04:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I love The Economist for these kinds of questions. There are a ton of factors here but the top two are slightly falling demand in the U.S. and the decision by Saudi Arabia to supply oil above OPEC targets. [15]. Saudi Arabia, alone among OPEC producers, actually seems to think about the health of its consumers (very important to future oil demand) and pumped extra oil all summer to try to lower prices below $100/barrel. OPEC as a whole may try to cut production this fall to support prices.

Nobody knows how much oil Saudi Arabia has. They claim to have a lot more oil than outside observers think they have. They certainly make longer-term decisions than other oil producers. Darkspots (talk) 08:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

A reason for the falling demand mentioned above is that many countries are falling into recession, so people have less money and are buying fewer things. Almost everything you buy needs some oil to manufacture whether for transporting materials or as an ingredient. Also, people who are afraid of recession tend to spend less and save more. Lower spending means less demand for oil. See e.g. [16]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.172.19.20 (talk) 12:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

What do you call the postcard hoardings where you put your face through a hole?

This is driving us mad because nobody so far seems to know. They're the things that you often find at seaside and tourist spots, a vertical board normally painted with some kind of cartoon image with an oval hole where the face (or faces) would be. You stick your face through, pull a gurning expression and everybody gets their camera out to preserve the moment you looked like a chimp/astronaut/general fool. Anybody help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leigh21 (talk • contribs) 13:55, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think they have a special name. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:58, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

According to a friend who's involved with a seaside arcade that has a few of these, she generally refers to them as "face boards" but she's not sure if that's remotely a technical term for them. Quite possibly Richardrj is correct in that there isn't a widely-accepted name for these. ~ mazca ^t|c 17:08, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

A mask? 71.176.175.197 (talk) 17:12, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

No - it's the very opposite of a mask! With a mask, your face is hidden - but the rest of your body is clearly visible. With these things, your face is visible and pretty much everything else is hidden. SteveBaker (talk) 23:25, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

This very same question was asked a couple weeks ago. Someone might want to check the archives... Dismas|^(talk) 17:17, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Miscellaneous Reference Desk, 2008 September 14: The common name of that wood photo-op thing at circuses, tourist traps, etc --70.254.87.166 (talk) 01:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Valium

diazapam is a class c drug in the uk. can i buy it fram a chemist/pharmacy without a prescription? Or how would one go about getting it? Thanks this is not medical advise, I am just curious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 13:59, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

As a Class C drug, it can only be bought legally in the UK with a prescription. You would need to go to your doctor, then to a pharmacy. See Misuse_of_Drugs_Act_1971#Class_C_drugs. — FIRE!^{in a crowded theatre...} 14:22, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Many drugs require a prescription to buy, but it's legal to own them. You might try a mail order catalog for drugs that are legal to buy in a specific country. Offshore pharmacies will mail you drugs in a brown paper box. Try Google to find them. Phil Burnstein (talk) 16:21, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia and research funding

Have any academics or researchers so far been given funding (or paid leave from their normal duties) to contribute to Wikipedia? I don't mean studying WP itself, but contributing to articles on other topics. — FIRE!^{in a crowded theatre...} 14:18, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

People have been paid to change Wikipedia articles but I don't recall any of them having been academics. All the instances I recall involved politics or businesses. Rmhermen (talk) 18:32, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I remember a couple of scandals, one involving Microsoft and another a Congressman. I was wondering if anyone had been professionally involved in making disinterested contributions; edits they did "on company time" but not on topics where they or their employers have a conflict of interest. I thought academics would be more likely than big business to do that, but might be wrong. Actually now I think of it, the Microsoft case was a clumsy attempt to deal with bias against their products[17]. — FIRE!^{in a crowded theatre...} 19:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Darn good question. So far as I can tell, academia has simply not shown the respect for Wikipedia that would be entailed to do this.

I'd be interested to know even whether, outside of Computer Science and closely allied fields, any academic institution is even actively supporting the creation of open-licensed materials. Roy Rosenzweig has had some interesting remarks on that: see his "Can History be Open Source? Wikipedia and the Future of the Past".- Jmabel | Talk 20:55, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, a number of academic institutions support creation of open-licensed materials. There has been huge discussions about copyleft licensing of academic works for some time now. See, e.g. PLoS.

And not paying people to edit Wikipedia is not the same thing as now showing respect for it. You could argue that they don't really pay people to write Encyclopedia Brittanica entries either—they don't generally consider that sort of work to be the same as a "real publication" (it doesn't count towards tenure), and they aren't going to relieve you of your teaching schedule to do that sort of thing. If I were an academic administrator I'd be dubious of paying relatively expensive academics (in terms of cost per hour) to work on something that some high school kid could erase or change when nobody is looking.

Plenty of academics edit on Wikipedia. Some have made editing on Wikipedia part of their coursework for students. But as for being paid to edit it... in academia, you only get paid to do three things: 1. teach, 2. administer, and 3. work on your own products of authorship. An academic couldn't put, "author of the Wikipedia article on automobiles, at least I was before it got reverted, and then there was that edit war, and now it has some of what I wrote in it, but really, I did a good job and if you went to the article now, it might reflect a little bit of what I did on it." That's not how academic authorship works.

That's one of the reasons why academics are not quite as quick to participate in collective-authorship. You don't get any credit in academia for collective authorship, because your own efforts and abilities as an individual cannot be easily assessed from it. That is an entirely different thing that saying academics can't release their work under copyleft licenses—many do. In those cases, though, the licenses are pretty explicit about how authorship has to be indicated, and in the end, the final products look a lot more like a piece of academic work than they do like a Wikipedia article.

I'm an academic. I like Wikipedia. I sometimes edit on it. I think it is obvious useful to people. But I don't think it's very compatible with an academic mode of authorship. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 22:08, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it's also the case in many fields that academics are supposed to write new and original things - which is precisely what Wikipedia bans people from doing by saying No Original Research, No synthesis of ideas and that everything you say in article-space that is in any way controversial has to be referenced to some existing source material. Added to the requirements for Notability (which prevents you writing about super-obscure stuff) - there is really no fertile ground left for an academic to do something genuinely new. For people in non-academic fields, the desire to spend money generally requires some kind of pay-back - and it's hard to imagine how putting information in a public Wiki is better than putting it into a private one that you and all your other employees can reach - but which will not benefit your competitors. Hence, it's very likely that anyone who IS being paid to do this is doing it for dirty, underhanded reasons. SteveBaker (talk) 23:23, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Editing Wikipedia is very valuable training for students and one could consider that they are being paid to do that, but original research has to go somewhere it can be properly attributed and not altered by others e.g. arXiv. Dmcq (talk) 10:30, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Schwarzenegger, Bloomberg, Romney etc.

Why do locations which are typically Democrat strongholds in presidential elections - NYC, California, Massachusetts etc. - have Republican leaders like Schwarzenegger or Romney? 58.161.194.134 (talk) 15:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Because all politics is local, and the winning governor was able to convince a majority (or plurality) of voters that he would do better than his predecessor (who's often of the other party). Then, too, Schwarzenegger and to some extent Romney had wide name recognition. Ditto Bloomberg, who was previously a Democrat and most likely not Sarah Palin's idea of a Republican. In states like Maryland, long dominated by one party, voters sometimes elect a governor of the other party -- out of preference, fatigue, or pique. The election of Republican Robert Ehrlich was not enough to propel his lieutenant governor, Michael Steele, into the U. S. Senate, however, leaving the Republican Party once again without a single black member of the House or the Senate. --- OtherDave (talk) 16:55, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

In short and spoken generally, because political affiliation can be weighted differently at different scales of political involvement. That is, not everybody who adheres to the party line in federal elections will see a need to do so in state or local cases. I'll also note that to a certain extent you're looking at a case of confirmation bias. By my count, 15 of 50 states have a governor of the party currently trailing in state-wide polling (based on List of current United States governors and electoral-vote.com). It's a sizeable chunk, but more than twice that match parties. A paper abstract from the National Bureau of Economic Research suggests that there's less incentive for candidates to adhere to party extremism at the local level than at either state or federal levels. — Lomn 16:57, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

North Carolina is the reverse. A strong Democratic trend at the state level but a Republican trend at the national level (although Obama is currently leading in the polls).--droptone (talk) 18:08, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

In California, at least, the Democratic Party hasn't fielded a decent candidate in several gubernatorial elections. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 18:30, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Schwarzenegger, of course, first got in via a rather unusual process after a recall election.

NYC: what a complicated mess. Republicans who win in NYC are usually moderate-to-liberal, reformers, or both. In a city where the Democratic machine(s) can get pretty corrupt, people often look to the Republicans (LaGuardia, Lindsay, Giuliani, Bloomberg) to clean things up. But they sure weren't ready to elect Mario Procaccino. Also, race has been a factor: white Republicans have been known to do better than non-white Democrats with some working-class whites. Further, there is the adage that "A conservative is a liberal whose just been mugged": certainly Giuliani, at least, rode in on a (probably false) perception of high crime rates and (clearly accurate) perception of seediness. - Jmabel | Talk 20:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

In most elections, the Republican candidate will be to the right of the Democratic one. However, a Democrat in Mississippi may be more conservative than a Republican in Massachusetts. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:03, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Conversely, here in North Carolina we reliably vote for Republicans for president and Democrats for governor, although there's a solid chance we'll reverse that pattern this year. --Sean 15:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Debt

If someone just stops paying their bills (utilities, loans, whatever) what happens? Do they just get the utilities shut off, their credit ruined, etc, or are they actually arrested or summoned to court? 71.176.175.197 (talk) 17:12, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

It depends on the nation in question, but generally if you owe money to a firm (utility/loan/whatever) for a service you have previously used and then refuse to pay it you will go through several stages. First will be reminder-letters, then demand-letters, then (depending on the nature of the debt) it may be sold onto a debt recovery firm who will try to recoup the debt through many means (e.g. through the courts, through repossession of your possessions/home etc.). If all this continues to fail it may be that you end having to be declared officially bankrupt or could be placed in priosn for refusal to pay debts. As for utilities - yes they may cut you off from the supply, or for loans they may give you a bad credit rating. ny156uk (talk) 17:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure you can be placed in prison? I thought unpaid debt is a civil matter and civil courts aren't able to jail you, even if you refuse to pay the judge's judgement against you. 71.176.175.197 (talk) 18:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

In the past, you certainly could. I'm not sure if any jurisdictions still have debtors prisons. --Tango (talk) 18:38, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe in any industrialised nation you can be thrown in prison for failing to pay a debt, with the important exception of tax debts (which is why every debt counsellor advises you to sort out your tax debts first). DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:59, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

In some places utility shutoffs are restricted by law. For example, in places with cold winters, if you have gas heat, the gas company may not be allowed to shut off your gas during the winter no matter what. (I don't remember any specifics, but I've definitely heard of laws like that.) --Anonymous, 18:42 UTC, October 23, 2008.

In the UK they can't cut off your water supply (although they can throttle it to just a dribble - enough that you can drink and keep up basic hygiene, but nothing else). That has led to people being advised that if you can't pay all your bills, your water bill if the one to miss. --Tango (talk) 19:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The short of it: depends on what bills and what jurisdiction. If you get more specific, someone may be able to give you a more meaningful answer. - Jmabel | Talk 20:43, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

If you're not paying on secured debt (home loans, car loans, etc.), the creditor can go to court and get possesion of the asset securing the debt, which they will then sell to pay off the debt. --Carnildo (talk) 22:13, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

In Nunavut they can't shut the electricty off in the winter but they can throttle it back, no TV etc. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 13:30, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

How do you throttle an electricity supply? Make it trip if they draw more than a small amount of current? I would expect electric heating to use such a large portion of the supply that making it so you can heat your house but not watch TV would be difficult. --Tango (talk) 16:56, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that's possible. Without entering your home and messing with the wiring of your house (which I'm pretty sure they won't be allowed to do) - limiting the current won't help because the heating system uses WAY more power than (say) a small TV - they couldn't adjust it accurately enough to make that work. SteveBaker (talk) 20:22, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

First, they actually might be allowed to do things inside a house in such a situation. Second, don't assume from what the poster said that we're talking about electric heat. Electricity in Nunavut is generated pretty much exclusively by fossil fuel, since people are so spread out that hydroelectric or nuclear plants wouldn't make sense, and people could burn that fuel just as easily and more efficienty in their own homes. But they still need electricity to run their heating systems, both for thermostatic control and things like blowers or water pumps. With long winter nights, continuous night in midwinter in some places, it would make sense to require people to be allowed some small amount of electric light, too. --Anonymous, 22:45 UTC, October 24, 2008.

Maybe the electric supply to heaters is on a different meter? 19:08, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Northland Steamship Company

Question/request moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ships - Jmabel | Talk 06:41, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Planes

Am I right in saying that most (if not all) of these planes are fake (heavily photoshopped). Thanks 92.5.107.9 (talk) 21:00, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Entirely fake. Good, though. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:03, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Are they all fake? Anyway, thanks. 92.5.107.9 (talk) 21:24, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Not all of them. The "Boeing Dreamliner" (about 27 seconds in) looks like a repaint of the Boeing 747 Large Cargo Freighter. Likewise, the Delta triple-decker (43 seconds) looks like a repaint of somebody's outsize-cargo carrier. --Carnildo (talk) 22:23, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I think your right about the Dreamliner, that looked real to me. The triple-decker looks like a photoshopped double-decker. The flying wings seem real to me, and so does that silver Hawaiian...but I don't really know.92.5.107.9 (talk) 22:30, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The triple decker is definitely a photoshop. The airbridges to the highest & middle decks would interfere with each other. Note the door spacing between the lower and middle deck. I acknowledge the dreamlifter similarity, but why label a dreamlifter a dreamliner? Where is the rear hinge? I don't buy it. I cannot find the flying wing on List of flying wing aircraft. And I equally don't buy the 10 engined Hawaiian thing. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:14, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

"Dreamliner" is a marketing name for the Boeing 787, the aircraft whose parts the 747 LCF was constructed to transport. If you look closely at the picture in the video, you can see the fin actually reads "Dreamliner Express", not just Dreamliner. I must admit I can't find another photo of the LCF in that Boeing Corporate paintscheme, so it's possible that it's a real photograph with a fake livery applied. FiggyBee (talk) 12:54, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. The flying wings still look real to me, but it looks as if someone has digitally added those engines on the back. It also looks like they have just added extra engines to the Hawaiian aswell. 92.0.49.113 (talk) 00:30, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The Dreamlifter is the only real aircraft in there. The others are photo manipulations of real aircraft, except the giant BWBs which are completely fictitious. FiggyBee (talk) 06:14, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

It's worth noting that some of those little stubby ones that look so amusing are not too different from some experimental planes (though the size is different). I've always thought the XF-85 Goblin was pretty funny looking, almost looks photoshopped (certainly looks dangerous!). --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:00, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Fly-by

How much do you think it would cost to get a fly-by from a jet plane, a dump annd burn fly-by and a Red Arrows fly-by (with red, white and blue smoke)? - not all fly-bys together, but how much would they cost seperatly?

I don't want to get any of these but I have seen them and that got me wondering what it would cost. Thanks 92.5.107.9 (talk) 22:13, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, the details for requesting a Red Arrows display are here, but they don't include a price. I expect it's decided on a case-by-case basis depending on exactly what is required. --Tango (talk) 22:27, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I looked In the FAQ and I couldn't find a price. Also, does anyone know why the Red Arrows aren't permitted to do a fly-by for a wedding or funeral. That seems kind of wierd to me.92.5.107.9 (talk) 22:36, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

My guess is that they would just get far too many requests. --Tango (talk) 22:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks92.0.49.113 (talk) 00:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

You can get a fly-by for free for special occasions such as social events, fundraisings, etc, you have to apply a long time in advance and if you're lucky enough to be close to their location at the time they'll go woosh for you. 190.244.186.234 (talk) 01:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

October 24

tap beer

How long does beer in a tap stay good, before going flat or getting stale? If a bar has a lot of beers on tap or has a slow week or something, that beer is just sitting there for a long time, does it go bad and they have to dump it out? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.8.100.50 (talk) 00:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

A week, according to [18] FiggyBee (talk) 07:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Also with real ales, you may have to throw away the first pint each day, as it goes stale in the line. [19]. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 09:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, real ales last about a week once tapped (give or take what's in the lines as has been said). Lagers last forever since there's nothing the slightest bit natural about them! (Although that may just be that I think they taste disgusting to start with so can't taste the difference! I'm pretty sure they last longer than real ales, though.) Old barman's trick: If your real ale goes flat, poor half a pint of lemonade into the barrel and it's nice and fizzy again (technically, you're in violation of several laws, but, meh)! --Tango (talk) 11:33, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

That "lemonade" would be a carbonated soft drink like 7-UP and not a fruit drink made of lemon juice and sugar and water, correct? Edison (talk) 15:33, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Correct. Is the traditional still drink still the main use of the word in the US? In the UK, we'd call that "traditional lemonade" or something to distinguish it. It's the same lemonade as is used in shandy, so mixing it with beer isn't that strange. --Tango (talk) 16:54, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

It's the exclusive use. In the States if you say lemonade when you mean Sprite, you will simply not be understood. Lemonade is lemon juice, water, and sugar. (An excellent variation is to substitute limes and leave the sugar out; if you have good limes they're just sweet enough by themselves.) --Trovatore (talk) 19:06, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

So what do you call drinks like Sprite? --Tango (talk) 19:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I call them an abomination. --Trovatore (talk) 19:19, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

:) And those in the US that drink them? --Tango (talk) 19:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

In general, "soda" or "pop" or "soda pop" or "soft drinks". There's no special name for the lemon-flavored ones. --Trovatore (talk) 19:50, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2008/08/18/308-the-pop-vs-soda-map/ —Tamfang (talk) 01:33, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Tango's crack about lager reminds me of a bit in Red Dwarf: "The advantage of dog's milk is that when it goes off it tastes just the same as when it's fresh. Plus it lasts forever, because no bugger 'll drink it." —Tamfang (talk) 01:33, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

America and Britain

In what year did America's population grow to be bigger than Britain or England's? How about the GDP? TastyCakes (talk) 02:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Population: US overtook the UK sometime shortly before 1850, overtook England some time shortly before 1840. [20] [21] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tagishsimon (talk • contribs)

Did the movement of Irish famine refugees contribute strongly to this? Edison (talk) 15:31, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The movement of all the European Potato Famine refugees and the refugees from the Revolutions of 1848 as well would have contributed. Rmhermen (talk) 16:39, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Substantive news channel

I remember vaguely about a local news channel back in 2002 or so, probably in Illinois, which was performing an experiment to provide some less sensationalist news with substance. Did this happen or was this a figment of my imagination? --Blue387 (talk) 06:57, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure lots of news stations bill themselves as being less sensationalist, with more substance - was there something that made this one more believable than normal? ~ mazca ^t|c 14:58, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

French curves

Why are the French curves named so?

Because French men admire them so?  :-) --Scray (talk) 11:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm - that's a really good question. Our article ("French curve") on these fascinating, beautiful, (but horribly obsolete) artifacts is a bit lacking in detail! I suspect the root of the term comes from the same place as "frenching" - which is technique used to put curves into metalwork. That article says that the term relates to 'French cuffs' on garments like shirt sleeves...but that link lead only to our article on cuffs in general. Googling on 'frenching' produces a bunch of unrelated stuff. I rather suspect that there has always been a tendency to associate France with things that are generally elegant and kinda sexxy - which is odd because the French themselves generally don't. Dictionary.com says that the term dates back to 1880 to 1885 - but doesn't say where it comes from - that's annoying because I was going to guess that the term dates back to the work of the French mathematician Blaise Pascal - who did a lot of work on the 'cycloid' and other mathematical curves...perhaps relating to the shapes in a French curve instrument - but he was around in the 1600's - and dictionary.com says that the term didn't come to be used until the 1880's. Some people call them "Ships curves" - which presumably relates them to ship design going back to sailing ships and the like.

SteveBaker (talk) 13:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

An alternative idea is it comes from an American engineer called Thomas French. Would explain why they aren't called English curves in France :) Dmcq (talk) 13:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary places it in a list of things "of actual or attributed French origin", under a seperate heading from "French cuffs". It doesn't mention the Thomas French theory. Warofdreams talk 15:50, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

In the 1950's, I a saw picture of a French curve where a portion of the instrument was shaped like a bathing beauty. Phil Burnstein (talk) 16:50, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

old postal codes USA

Between what years did the USPS use 1 digit postal codes, as in "Detroit 5, Michigan" ? I can find information on 2 digit codes (from 1948-1964), but not 1 digit codes. I am trying to date an address. 65.32.120.92 (talk) 12:46, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The article on ZIP code indicates the US system began in 1943 but using 2 digit postal zones. However, this (scroll down to background) which appears to be an older version of Wikipedias ZIP code page seems to indicate that 1 digit codes were in use then as well. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 13:50, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

And here is where the example was removed. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 13:56, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I am almost old enough to remember the period before zip codes. (They were introduced around the time I was born, and I can remember seeing addresses using the old system.) The old system worked as follows: Most postal addresses were specified merely by the street address and the name of the town and the state (e.g., Provincetown, Massachusetts), without any numerals following the name of the town or state. Larger cities, however, were divided into numbered postal districts. The numbering of these districts typically started with a one-digit numeral such as 1 or 2, though sometimes the lowest numerals (such as 1 and 2) were reserved for post office boxes at the central post office. However, higher one-digit numerals, such as 5 or 8, were in use for street addresses in most cities. "New York 1, N.Y." was used for street addresses on the West Side of Midtown Manhattan. Smaller cities, such as Lowell, Massachusetts, would have fewer than 10 postal districts, so the numerals for their postal districts had no more than a single digit. Only the larger cities had more than 10 postal districts, some of them specified by two-digit numerals. For example, my present location would have had an address of "Boston 16, Massachusetts", before the introduction of zip codes. When zip codes were introduced, the numerals of each city's postal district were appended to the three-digit zip code prefix specifying that city's postal zone. For example, Manhattan's main three-digit zip code prefix is "100", so "New York 1, N.Y." became "New York, NY 10001". Similarly, "Boston 16, Mass." became "Boston, MA 02116". Marco polo (talk) 19:53, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Red hair

People with red hair are often the target of ridicule/prejudice from people within their own race (i.e. white people). Even the media is happy to poke fun at those with red hair. But I was wondering if anything similar happened in other races. Do black or Asian people, for example, ridicule groups within their own race based on certain physical features? Iiidonkeyiii (talk) 14:41, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I must note that I am a red haired man in a mostly white nation, and I have never seen this type of ridicule, from the media or elsewhere. Blondes are another story... Magog the Ogre (talk) 14:52, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Paper Bag Party? --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:53, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

File:Ginger-section.jpg

Ginger section

::See Colorism. Skin color discrimination among US blacks has been on the basis of the "blue vein test" as well. There were nightclubs in the US in the 20th century for African Americans where the skin color had to be light enough or they were not admitted. I have seen programs produced by Brits where people with red hair are called "ginger" or "ginger knob." Ginger I see in the supermarket is brown, not red, so this is puzzling. In the U.S. they might be called "carrot top." Carrots are closer to the color of red hair than ginger is. Edison (talk) 15:23, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

From what I've seen/experienced, hair texture is a similar feature inside Black American communities. And as Edison said, there is also the skin color issue.--droptone (talk) 15:42, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Gingerism is more of a UK issue than a U.S. one. Rmhermen (talk) 16:33, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Why do Brits see red hair as being ginger? Ginger is brown on the outside and greenish on the inside. Is there some red ginger candy or ginger drink which leads to the association? Edison (talk) 21:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm curious about this, too, but I don't think it's just British. Also I suppose it's not really any further from the truth than "red". There was a bit in Stranger in a Strange Land where Michael is making notes to himself about things like the color that is called red when applied to hair, though it's not called red for anything other than hair. --Trovatore (talk) 21:14, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Ginger-haired men (rarely women) in Australia are often nick-named "Blue" or "Bluey", for reasons I've never fathomed. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:22, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Possibly some association like ginger -> spicy -> hot -> red. No idea where bluey would come into it. Rmhermen (talk) 21:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

"Bluey" is because blue is the opposite of red. --Carnildo (talk) 22:12, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Colors have opposites? Plasticup ^T/C 00:20, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

See complementary colour and irony. jnestorius^(talk) 00:50, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I recently had occasion to explain to someone in Slovenia that English-speakers do not consider "red" hair to be intermediate between blond and brown. She had some surprising notions of what's "red", too. —Tamfang (talk) 01:20, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

International trade

Why in International trades we are using currencies like USD, or Euro? I think US, or Europe benefits from this. Do they really deserve this? Who sets this standards? Isn't possible to use something like gold for this purpose? --V4vijayakumar (talk) 16:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

In our article, or in real life? People trade with the currency units that are convenient to whoever has the whip hand in the transaction. That being the case, it's more conventional to trade using a currency than gold. You are right about advantage; I'm sure we have an article - petrodollar, perhaps - which notes the advantage the US gets from oil being priced in US dollars rather than, say, Euros. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:05, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The price of gold itself fluctuates, so there isn't a lot of point in specifying monetary amounts in it. Doing so would be less understandable to our readers than USD. It's conventional to express them in terms of a widely used currency, with USD being the most widely used and the Euro being a reasonable substitute. DJ Clayworth (talk) 20:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The price of gold doesn't fluctuate any more than the price of any given currency. It's best for us to report values in the currency that was actually used in the trade (with conversions in brackets if appropriate). --Tango (talk) 21:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

less understandable? I don't think so. Check the following usages; Ipod 10 grams of gold, Tata nano 100 grams of gold, ..etc

Tango, that actually turns out not to be the case. Gold prices fluctuate a lot more than currency values do. For example, the price of gold was $692/oz. this morning; it was $918/oz. on 10 October. The value of the dollar has been considerably more constant during those two weeks. To the OP, gold simply isn't what you seem to think it is, not anymore. It's now just a commodity, and using one of the world's reserve currencies to complete (or at least report on) a transaction is more convenient for everyone involved. Darkspots (talk) 08:59, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but Gold has just had its biggest weekly drop in 28 years[22], so that's hardly a fair test! Outside of a major economic crisis, gold is pretty stable. --Tango (talk) 14:04, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Gold is a commodity with prices that fluctuate wildly, as the last week has shown. Currencies (in well-run economies) are managed so that changes in their purchasing power (inflation or deflation) happen slowly. I don't walk into Starbucks in the morning and get told that the dollar lost 13% of its real value in a week, so my coffee costs an extra sixty cents today. Gold from 1979 to 1982 lost well over half its value, expressed in dollars, from over $700 an ounce to less than $300. My point is that the gold standard is well behind us. The deflationary effect of rising gold prices in the Great Depression is the reason the United States abandoned the gold standard—deflation generally creates vast uncertainty in an economy (gold prices were only one of the causes of deflation in the Great Depression). Darkspots (talk) 15:31, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure. If gold is used instead of USD / Euro in international trade, then its price will not fluctuate, because there will always be heavy demand. --V4vijayakumar (talk) 15:47, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

There is a difference between purchasing power and exchange rates. While the local purchasing power of a major currency is pretty stable, the nominal rate of the exchange between major currencies does fluctuate quite significantly. I believe it generally fluctuates on a similar scale to the gold price in dollars. The last week or so has been exceptional - gold has bad weeks just as any currency does. I'm sure the US dollar has had the odd week in the past 28 years where it's lost comparable amounts of value to what gold has lost recently. --Tango (talk) 16:12, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Cross country

What is the medical criteria for selecting a good long distance runner? I understand that one needs to have a low pulse rate. Apart from that, what else should be considered, height, build, etc sumal (talk) 17:37, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The low pulse rate comes from being very fit rather than being a pre-disposition to being a good runner, I believe. --Tango (talk) 17:38, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Mostly from being fit, but surely there is variance at one's resting heart rate apart from fitness level. Also important for any sort of physical activity is lung capacity, which also surely varies both by predisposition and as a result of training.--droptone (talk) 18:03, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I imagine there is an genetic factor on resting heart rate, but does it make you a better runner? --Tango (talk) 19:41, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Stamina is also important. This can be built with training, but there is need for a long-term energy supply rather than the explosive release needed for the shorter distances. Some are more suited to the one or the other.86.219.39.92 (talk) 15:50, 25 October 2008 (UTC)DT

Llanelli v New Zealand 1972

Hi does anyone out there have a programme for this match which llanelli won 9 - 3? I need to find out the Llanelli team from this famous match! Thanks. Smartfreddy —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smartfreddy (talk • contribs) 18:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Which actual sport are you talking about? -- JackofOz (talk) 21:19, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

"Day the pubs ran dry" from BBC has the lineups. It's rugby union, Jack. Oz used to be good at it...so did Wales. jnestorius^(talk) 00:58, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Odd musical instrument

Need information on eggplant shaped object, with handle which appears to have a slot to blow in. Painted red with flower petals painted on each end. There are 10 numbered holes for air to come out of. There are 2 round seals on the bottom, one superimposed over the other. I can't read what they say. There is also an oval shaped seal that says in part Made in Austria (in English). Unknown material, not cast iron but too heavy to be ceramic.18:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vanjen (talk • contribs)

Ocarina? FiggyBee (talk) 18:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah - I agree - that's an ocarina alright. SteveBaker (talk) 20:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I seem to recall that ocarinas were used for the sound of the Seven Dwarves pipe organ in the Snow White Disney cartoon: [23]. Edison (talk) 21:06, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

about Frankie Valli and the 4 Seasons

I have a video of FV and the 4S in concert in Chicago 1982. There is a Guy he calls GUIDO, who seems to be really funny and good. I have not see him before or after (the next Concert video I have is from 1992 in Atlantic City) Who is Guido, and what has become of him? I'm really interested to find out. Thank you very much Kary Silva Palm Desert, CA —Preceding unsigned comment added by LoveFValli (talk • contribs) 20:59, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Any chance you're talking about Father Guido Sarducci? He used to appear on SNL, too. --Scray (talk) 03:33, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Speaking to a person via a translator etiquette

Okay, here's an etiquette question for you Mr./Ms. Manners types out there ...

Say you're speaking to someone via an interpreter. Assume also that we're in the U.S. or U.K. where it's considered polite to make eye contact with the person you're speaking to edit: or in any other county or culture where this rule of etiquette applies, I guess. When you're speaking to the person, I'd think it would be considered polite to make eye contact with that person. When the person responds, is it then polite to continue eye contact with the person being interpreted, or with the person doing the interpreting? I've always felt a little funny about this situation, because it would seem to me that you should make eye contact with the person being interpreted basically at all times (since s/he's the person you're communicating with), btut that leaves the interpreter out of all eye contact, which seems kind of rude to me on some level. Any thoughts? Dgcopter (talk) 21:25, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

It's a good question. A related question I've never been sure about is whether you should refer to the person you are communicating with in the 2nd or 3rd person. --Tango (talk) 22:03, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

An interpreter (for a deaf person using a special telephone) once told me to use second person. I guess that simplifies things a bit for the interpreter, reducing the number of mental conversions required. —Tamfang (talk) 01:14, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

IMO, you maintain eye contact with the person you are communicating with, not the interpreter. The interpreter should be used to not being looked at (although you can glance at him/her occasionally) and you don't want to miss any part of the body language of the speaker. Also speak normally, i.e. address the other party in the 2nd person. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:56, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

In the UN the interpreters aren't even visible to the speaking parties. The speaker addresses his crowd directly, the crowd looks back at him, and the interpreters do their business out of sight. Plasticup ^T/C 00:16, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Just a personal opinion: I think one should entirely focus on the other person when speaking to them, but when hearing their words via the interpreter, you should pay attention to both. When someone speaks to you in the same language, you focus on them, obviously, but the fact of the matter is that through an interpreter, you are getting the intent of the language from your opposite but the language itself from the interpreter. Not acknowledging this fact with your body language seems wrong to me, as if you only cared about what the other person looks like as opposed to what they're saying. But I'm not Miss Mannersl maybe there already are set guidelines one would follow. zafiroblue05 | Talk 00:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, it's easier to hear and understand someone's words if you are looking at them and can see their lips move, so especially if there is a lot of background noise or the interpreter speaks with a strong and unfamiliar accent, you should look at the interpreter when they speak so you don't mishear. --Tango (talk) 12:01, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Can you help me?

I'm a white male in Britain. Recently, a girl from India who's about 4 years younger than me asked for my number. She's a nice girl, but I'm not sure about the cultural and social aspects of being with an Indian girl. She is sweet, studious and intelligent, which I appreciate, but I'm not sure if I'm attracted to her (probably would be after a few drinks), and I fear that the cultural aspects are too large. Can you help me?--Holy Roman Empire (talk) 21:39, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Easy, since you are not attracted to her, don't give her your number. Problem solved. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 21:47, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

O RLY?--Holy Roman Empire (talk) 22:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Are you sure you are not looking for an excuse? If you need a few drinks inside you to fancy her then the nicest thing you could do is simply tell her straight "I'm not interested". Looking for problems to do with culture and so on is a bit of a cop out really. Theresa Knott | The otter sank

She's probably the best person to help you answer those questions - if you're interested in possibly pursuing a relationship, go on a date with her and talk to her. That's the point of dates. --Tango (talk) 22:02, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Looking at this user's contributions list, Looks like we're being trolled. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 22:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I would assume good faith - the contributions may be a little misguided but they don't look like trolling to me. --Tango (talk) 12:04, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Sand hoppers

How do sand hoppers avoid drowning when the tide comes in?

Perhaps they "crawl or hop … landward if doused with sea water"? Deor (talk) 01:54, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Re:Oil Prices

Following on from the earlier question about oil-production v oil prices; and also following today's announcement from OPEC that oil production is about to be reduced by 1.5 million barrels per day (about 5%) as from 1st November, is it too simplistic a question to ask whether OPEC have considered that most people and businesses in these recessionary times will surely be planning on consuming less oil than before, thus negating OPEC's efforts to shore up its defences against world economics (in fact, making the situation worse for themselves in the long run), viz, Senator Obama's recent speech in which he announced that the USA will aggressively pursue alternative energy solutions, and Mr. Sarkozi making available millions of Euros to the French Auto Research Establishments for the development of an oil-free engine within the foreseeable future. In short, doesn't OPEC envisage a situation soon when their oil will be an unwanted and inedible lake of sludge beneath their arid sand? 92.23.185.136 (talk) 22:44, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, they know that their oil resources are limited and want to bilk them for all they are worth. They don't want to waste their oil by selling it cheaply during a recession - they would rather keep the price high and wait things out. By the time alternative fuels become widely available their fossil fuels will be long gone, so the super-long term planning that you are thinking of never comes into play. Plasticup ^T/C 00:13, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course they are aware of that! That's why Saudi Arabia opposes such a cut (its leaders were mostly educated in the US too). However, they are a lot smarter than we are. They correctly calculate that it will take decades just to make a transition, and far more for a change in public will to occur. As usual, talks of alternate energy are cheap.

Think about the past 5 years: how much have OPEC countries benefited from cutting production? (Hint: the answer is a Lot, with a capital "L"). And how much has increasing prices cut demand and changed public will? (Hint: demand has increased - only the increase in increase has abated; and public will is determined a lot more by convenience in first world nations than we will ever admit).

That said, if they push it too far (e.g., $8/gallon), they really will hurt demand. But by then, they're already making $8/gallon, so maybe it's a net positive. Magog the Ogre (talk) 03:31, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok - I accept all of that - and thanks for your comments above BUT, as OPEC oil production is withheld, and world prices and inflation inflate - and the USA changes its attitude to drilling in the Gulf and in Alaska where it is well known that VAST oil deposits exist - and as the UK and other oil producing nations seek out hitherto unaffordable fields for exploitation - and as alternative energy sources ARE increasingly developed to the point of consumer viability (wind and wave and coal power per se) - and as general depression-economy reductions in oil consumption progress - SURELY, the OPEC countries must see that their actions NOW are alienating the very countries on which they will in future be relying for food and other non-OPEC-indigenous commodities. Or will the sheiks, princes, and other potentates simply decamp to greener pastures with their oil-zillions intact, leaving their countrymen wandering in the deserts as they did prior to the discovery of oil? 92.23.28.9 (talk) 13:37, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Remember oil is a 'finite' resource. It's ultimately going to disappear. I've yet to see anyone seriously suggest that oil is going to be worthless in the near to medium term. So ultimately they want to keep the prices as high as the market can sustain. And prices have fallen a lot recently so it makes sense they want to raise prices. And OPEC is hardly a new thing. They've existed for quite a while and have been relatively successful. There is no reason to presume they're going to suddenly totally collapse. And the fact is many OPEC countries are already trying to developed their economies. For example the Burj Dubai and other such developments, while perhaps a sign of extravagance, are also part of an attempt to develop their respective countries into business centres. Of course it's anyone's guess as whether they'd succeed. But it also clearly makes most sense for them to make as most money over as most time from their oil as possible. BTW, even if wind and wave are starting to become viable, most countries are still a long, long way away from getting a large percentage of it's power from wind and water. Remember too that there is a big world out there besides the US. Demand from the developing world is (or was) increasing at a phenomonal rate. Nil Einne (talk) 18:56, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, you appear to be under a serious misimpression about oil resources in Alaska. Take a look at Arctic Refuge drilling controversy. The vast majority are unproven and even with the wildest estimate it is actually only a drop in the ocean. It will take to at least 2018 before anything starts to come out and in 2030 (which is close to the peak production period) it will be between 0.4 - 1.2 % of the world's consumption. In conclusion, it's going to have virtually no effect on the world's prices. This doesn't answer whether or not the US should drill there, but it does mean that Alaskan oil is barely a blip on the radar for OPEC. P.S. Also Oil reserves in the United States Nil Einne (talk) 20:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Whilst oil is a major player in Middle East economies it isn't the only. OPEC is a cartel of sellers working together, it doesn't represent the interests of the economies of the nations of its members, though its activity and action will bolster their economies (some to a larger degree of others). Additionally it is unlikely that nations will be 'petty' in the selling/trade long in the future once the oil has gone. The middle east will have to reshape its economy as the oil age ends (so will every economy), and what services is provides on a global scale are uncertain. Perhaps with its expertise in fuel and power management and its geography/climate it may be well placed to take advantage of future developments in renewable energies? OPEC will seek to control its output to ensure maximum profitability over the maximum time period possible. There are technical limiations to its productions, and there is little benefit in purposefully supplying far more than demand requires (as noted it'll only cheapen its price), so they will constantly alter production to try maintain maximum profitability (and to do so will have to take into account political issues/standing etc.) ny156uk (talk) 18:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Cheap international phone calls

Hi there. A friend recently pointed out a website with information on cheap international phone calls. Great you might think, don't question it, just use it! What is really bugging me is, how do they make a profit from it? They are surely not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. Anyone know how they make their money? PS: I don't work for this website, just curious and a teensy weensy bit worried I'm getting taken for a sucker. Titch Tucker (talk) 18:37, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

In Poland an international phone call using something like this can cost five times more than VoIP connection to a phone in other country. Only part of this is paid to a telecom for paid call. The rest is enough profit for such services. MTM (talk) 20:19, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

fake airplaneBussyg (talk) 20:39, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Did the aborigines build a fake airplane outside the Port Moresby airport to attract other airplanes???

fake airplane

Did the aborigines build a fake airplane outside the Port Moresby airport to attract other airplanesBussyg (talk) 20:40, 25 October 2008 (UTC)