Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Catholic Alliance of wikipedia

< Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Texture (talk | contribs) at 18:01, 27 December 2005 (→[[Wikipedia:Catholic Alliance of wikipedia]]). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Wikipedia:Catholic Alliance of wikipedia

This project/organization is an attempt to fix the content of wikipedia along the lines of the religious pov's of the participants. This is an attempt to disrupt consensus finding by deliberately targetting specific deletion votes, in the hope that possible opponents will simply be outnumbered. This attempt at voter canvassing has already happened in two afd's (of Student LifeNet and Gay rights in Iraq) and a cfd (Pro-choice and pro-life celebrities) prior to the creation of this alliance. In all three cases, outsiders were canvassed in order to cast a desired vote. In the case of the cfd, this has worked: the vote was turned from an overwhelming delete to no consensus. Wikipedia has no religion, and the content of wikipedia should never be subject to what a group of followers of a certain religion deem permissible in the eyes of their religion. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 01:05, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Further consideration: Shanedidona has described the Catholic Alliance of Wikipedia to user:Darthgriz98 as "a CAtholic organization for the preservation of conservative values, basically, CAoW is a redily summonable voting block in case a pro-life article is threatened. ... Vote Pro-Life!" [1] Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 12:57, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, "...outsiders were canvassed in order to cast a desired vote." I never told any of them which way to vote, indeed a few even voted against me on the matter. So with informing any user you must be prepared to be shot down. And it isn't and shouldn't be against wikipedia policy to ask fellow wikipedians to be involved in a dispute. Especially since they might have an opinion that couldn't be expressed if they were unaware that it had been nominated for deletion. Chooserr 01:40, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You have indeed been quite neutral in informing outside users of the afd's. My main beef in this is with Pitchka, who requested 57 users to stop "abortion zealots" who "don't want anyone to think that any celebrity is actually pro-life." This is a clear and blatant request to vote to keep the nominated categories. But although you have been quite neutral in your messages, the behaviour of you, Pitchka and Shanedidona shows a concerted effort to outnumber other voices and fix wikipedia content along pov lines. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 11:27, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, I already voted, but let me just say that this is an NPOV wiki. Sure, there should be balanced information, but I'm afraid that this group will add POV without seeing it at first. Normally I would NEVER vote for deletion on something like this, but I just feel that there is no need for this one. Deckiller 03:28, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete blatant POV pushing organization that also is trying to undermine AFD and push their own overall POV. JtkieferT | C | @ ---- 03:31, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move or Keep Would a wikiproject be of more use? Look guys, don't WP:BITE. We don't have that many people knowledgable about specialized groups like Catholics, and there is a serious gap here in people ready and willing to work on articles of this nature. I can count a few who work now, but new blood to help clean up Catholic articles is needed. I can't say we need people here to block LGBT or whomever from speaking, but, we do need people who can work on the many stubs we have in Catholic topics. As far as a faith based group, it doesn't require a Vatican ID card to join and help. Anyone interested would be welcome, unlike some other groups here. Dominick (TALK) 03:36, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • If this is simply about adding information to articles relating to catholicism, why is this "a pro-life ... organization for the purpose of rallying voting on articles about topics such as abortion"??? Why is this "a redily summonable voting block in case a pro-life article is threatened"??? After all, rallying votes on afd's has nothing to do with what you described above. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 12:41, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I am a pro-life catholic, but I'm going to have to say delete, because it's too biased. There are sites for this kind of view and I encourage you to check them out, but this is an encyclopedia, not a government bill. If celebrities want to say they are prolife, they can get a wiki and get some userboxes that say they are. Although I encourage Catholics to get involved on wiki and start cleaning up articals about the reilgion and make sure nobody puts utter crap in them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darthgriz98 (talk • contribs)
  • Delete per Xoloz. Since this is a discussion, not a vote, I hope the closing admin notes the vagueness and poor relevance of Shanedidona's (the creator of the page) argument "You should give this group a chance, for it has just started", which is the only "keep" reason I see above— Chooserr and Hollow Wilerding merely repeat it. "It has just started" doesn't say anything about the merits of this specific page, but seems to suggest that any new "alliance" page in the Wikipedia space should be kept because it's new, irrespective of merit or harmfulness. Really..? (Edit conflict: Dominick actually argues for the page, I see, though I don't understand why he thinks this "alliance" is anything to do with working on Catholic articles or expanding stubs. Its stated, single, purpose is to votestuff on AFD.) --Bishonen | talk 03:49, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete POV pushing collective. Consensus votes every are already tenuous, this basically just makes them more likely to become an organized ochlocracy. karmafist 04:33, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, you have totally misunderstood the reason for the creation of this article; We can easily rally votes without it. As for an "organized ochlocracy" I think you might not know what an ochlocracy is. An ochlocracy is a government by the Mob. A mob is never organized. One person attempts to tip the car & everyone starts attempting to tip the car. They don't count heads and vote if the car should be tipped. Chooserr 04:37, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, so have you.
The Catholic Alliance of wikipedia is an organization for the purpose of rallying voting on articles about topics such as abortion. This is a pro-life group. [2]
That is the reason for its creation.--SarekOfVulcan 04:42, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
So they should start an "Association of Pro-life Wikipedians" on Wikipedia:Meta, that's what its for. Endomion 04:45, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Comment,
No you have. That was reverted as VANDALISM, by the creator of this page, and to the best of my knowledge was made by a USER WHO WASN'T LOGGED IN. Chooserr 05:04, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong on all counts. Use the page history, please.--SarekOfVulcan 05:07, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
No, I'm not wrong on all counts just on the part about the user, who turned out to be SPUI (not a Catholic), not being logged in. I came here to change it. So SarekOfVulcan, unless you know what you are talking of please don't. Chooserr 05:09, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Quote from page history, "(cur) (last) 23:42, 24 December 2005 Shanedidona (rv vandalism)" Chooserr 05:11, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Chooserr, you're the one that's wrong, please stop with the guessing and actually use the page history (=click on the links called "last" and look at who wrote what). The only thing SPUI added, and Shanediona reverted, was a link. All the text on the page was by Shanediona, including, in fact, practically consisting of, the sentence you call "vandalism", until you recently started editing it yourself. Bishonen | talk 09:45, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Happy holidays to everyone =P Deckiller 12:53, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • The keep votes so far:
  1. Chooserr - asked to do so by Shanedidona
  2. Hollow Wilerding - asked to do so by Shanedidona
  3. Dominick - asked to do so by Shanedidona
  4. Glenncando - asked to do so by 65.188.159.140
  5. Maltesedog - asked to do so by Shanedidona
  6. Avalon - asked to do so by Shanedidona
  7. Activision45 - asked to do so by Shanedidona
  8. Pitchka - received no notice of this mfd
Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 12:37, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, the pattern is obvious here. Wikipedia is not a place that should have factions like this, that require recruitment of members after the group is set up. Deckiller 13:09, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Deckiller, speak not what you know naught of.
I will quote verbatim what I was told, "Sorry to double-post... but anyway: Since you are listed as a Roman Catholic, I figured I'd send you this. Wikipedia:Catholic Alliance of wikipedia has been nominated for Deletion. Please vote and/or tell other people to vote to keep this organization on wikipedia. --Shanedidona 01:32, 25 December 2005 (UTC)". So as anyone can see I was not "asked to do so by Shanedidona" I was merely informed that it was up for deletion, and asked to vote. I could as easily have voted "delete" as "keep". I'm not sure if you have it in your babel, but there is one template saying "this user believes it's everyone's duty to vote". Well, I was informed of my duty...not as to say yea or nay. Chooserr 00:41, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - So, you are saying that Please vote and/or tell other people to vote to keep this organization on wikipedia. was not asking you to vote Keep? -- Dalbury(Talk) 00:45, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I highly doubt that it is telling people to keep, or even inspiring them to vote keep. Yes the sender seems to have a POV, but it is informing the user of the current vote first and foremost. Chooserr 01:52, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - You were circumspect in the wording of your messages to Category:Roman Catholic Wikipedians asking them to participate in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gay rights in Iraq. I interpret Shanedidona's messages as clearly asking for Roman Catholic Wikipedians to support keeping this page. -- Dalbury(Talk) 02:35, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
An example would be Darthgriz98's vote. Asked to vote, I believe, by one of the Catholic users. He voted. Chooserr 00:44, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Darthgriz98 was indeed asked by Shanedidona to vote to keep this organization on wikipedia. When (s)he voted to delete the CAoW, (s)he was almost immediately asked by Shanedidona to "please reread the CAoW page and reconsider your vote." If a delete voter is asked to reconsider his/her vote, all the messages Shanedidona left can mean only one thing: please vote to keep this organization. They are not requests to simply join in the discussion, they are requests to vote keep. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 09:49, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've undeleted this until consensus can be reached here. Tony's action was disrpectful to the opinions of all who have come here, and on his behalf, I apologize. While I agree with him on the lack of neutrality in this project, you don't use your administrative powers to push a content POV. karmafist 15:27, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    Hear hear! Let's have deliberations, not unilateralism. Particularly, the "not remotely neutral" would be invoked for all the other pages I mentioned below, too. We do not short-circuit debates that are ongoing, and we ought not even when a candidate is an unambiguous speedy delete candidate (which this one was not): once people deliberate, let them form consensus. Geogre 16:04, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    Well done and well said, Karmafist. - Tεxτurε 18:01, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete per nom, Tony Sidaway. KillerChihuahua?!? 15:27, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. This serves only to promote factionalism Pilatus 16:18, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as per Tony Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 17:06, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The purpose of their group, as stated, threatens NPOV, and I cannot see a positive use to the project. It would be one thing if they were solely interested in improving information about the catholic church and related topics, but this is instead about pushing values in the decisionmaking process on Wikipedia. This runs directly counter to the project goals of Wikipedia, and regardless of the result of this vote, should be deleted for those reasons. As a sidenote, wikipedia should've probably been capitalised. --Improv 17:28, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, per Tony. That being said, I do think we should let vote finish, and the more deletes we accumulate the stronger the message that the community as a whole thinks this is rubbish. But WP:NPOV is quite non-negotiable. -- SCZenz 17:39, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete A Catholic Alliance should be dedicated to well written articles about catholicism, not about maintaing POV forks on Abortion. Serves no clear purpose focused on Accuracy or Neutrality, and can easly damage both.--Tznkai 18:00, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Divisive, operates against WP:NPOV, and most of the other reasons people have given above. FreplySpang (talk) 18:58, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per above. I have serious NPOV questions about this page. Ral315 (talk) 19:41, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Gamaliel 20:03, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. the wub "?!" 20:28, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Everyone is entitled to thier own views. It wont hurt to have this page. --Activision45 21:46, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • In everyday life, everyone is indeed entitled to their own views. But on wikipedia, only the neutral point of view counts. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 21:49, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • The implementation is poor, but the sentiment is there to provide a way to talk about what needs work, part of that is rendering opinions in AfD discussions. I was not told HOW to vote, and my vote was not a simple keep. I know for a fact every human being has a PoV, nobody is born with NPoV. It is dishonest to think that a person has pure motives all the time. That being said, if it is NPoV to group together as lesbians, drug interested people, and other groups then these guys have a right to start. My suggestion was to merge not keep, and people who are Catholic often ask or solicit opinions of others, since Catholic theology is a specialized subject. Dominick (TALK) 21:59, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • "Rendering opinions in AfD discussions" is not part of this alliance, it is this alliance. That is it's only goal, and that's why the alliance is explicitly described as "a readily summonable voting block in case a pro-life article is threatened." That means that this alliance has only one mission: articles about pro-life groups should not be deleted, we will make sure that they won't be deleted, and we will do so by swamping deletion discussions in an attempt to outnumber others. You said that you have not been told how to vote. Yet Shanedidone asked you "to vote to keep this organization on wikipedia." Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 22:08, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • I also want to note that by using NPOV, Wikipedia is not suggesting that it does not make one "pure" to have religious or political meanings. In many parts of life, these are a good thing -- personally I think that people who live life without some kind of value system are missing out on a big part of what it means to be human. Pure motives have nothing to do with it -- it's rather that on Wikipedia, in order to produce a good encyclopedia, we have a policy of NPOV that helps keep articles looking as they should and keeps our community as inclusive as we can expect to be. Our insistance on NPOV is not meant to be a sneer on people with a viewpoint, because, being human, most of us have viewpoints on these things too. It's just something we must insist on for the good of the project. --Improv 04:20, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. While there is nothing wrong with people getting together and co-ordinating work, this group is an example of what WikiProjects should avoid doing. The original wording that was used to describe the group sounded like POV pushing and that should not be allowed on Wikipedia. Zach (Smack Back) 22:02, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • CommentOk, have we achieved consensus here? I think Tony was stretching, thus giving reasoning for those who voted Keep to feel they were shafted and they would be justified in recreating, but he's right, this should be deleted. karmafist 22:27, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kill it with fire. Ambi 23:33, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Karmafist, unless you can see unquestionable grounds for speedying it, you'd better let it run the full course, so they can't claim they didn't have time to properly defend the entry.--SarekOfVulcan 00:19, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Poxes on all houses: Let me explain. I am 100% against the deletionist page, the inclusionist page, the mergist page, Schoolwatch, and all other hitlist pages. I do not agree with busing voters, but there is something far more important here than that. Once an issue-oriented vote group forms, it becomes necessary to find things to vote on. Points are awarded for finding anti-Catholic sentiment. I.e. it is programmed from the start to find the issue, and if there is no issue, it will still be found. Further, it works to discourage independent thinking, and, most of all, its members are encouraged to not read the articles, not read the deliberations, not consider the arguments, but rather to save time by following the helpful link and astroturf a vote. This is the way to destroy Wikipedia. So, delete this, delete Schoolwatch, delete m:inclusionists, delete all instavote pages everywhere. I know it's tough, but people are just going to have to think for themselves and consider articles on a case by case basis. Geogre 01:40, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'd say this is worse than inclusionists or deletionists. Both groups have an agenda about how to format the encyclopedia, which they think would improve it. This page has a real-world agenda, which they want to impose on Wikipedia. Big difference! -- SCZenz 03:25, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree that it's worse because it's issue oriented, and issue oriented "projects" find the issue in ever more unlikely places. (The countering systemic bias has fallen victim to that to some degree.) It's worse than the run of the mill issue oriented project, too, because it's an issue that isn't present but which they seek to impose. It's worse still because it's about only one part of one issue (abortion). So I agree that this is an extremely deletable page. I was just saying that, even if none of those things had been true, I would have been in favor of deleting on the basis of astroturf (US term for "false grassroots organizing"). Geogre 12:30, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • While I vote delete below, I disagree that the associations on Meta should also be deleted. Unlike this group, Inclusionism/Mergism/Deletionism have no real world POV that they are trying to push, they are views on how best to build an encyclopedia (why we all are here after all), nothing more. ++Lar 14:18, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I can come up with any sane justification for the project in anything like it's current form.Geni 03:11, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all POV-pushers. Oh, we can't delete the people? OK, delete the page. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 03:34, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete promotes divisions into factions. There ought not to be a catholic alliance of wikipedia nor a protestant alliance of wikipedia nor a muslim alliance of wikipedia nor anything else of this sort. --Pierremenard 03:53, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Geogre's reasoning. --Carnildo 08:35, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per above. —Locke Cole 10:16, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all groups that aim to push a specific POV through vote-stacking. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:59, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge or transform into a proper wikiproject. (For the record, I find it very disturbing that people think it is wrong to notify potentially interested parties that a vote is going on. The notice on my talk page was simple and did not contain any incorrect characterization of this vote. Notices to demolish the Earth to make way for a hyperspace bypass should be not posted only in the basement of the planning office on Alfa Centauri, nor should people only be informed in dolphin-speak.) With apolgies to Douglas Adams — Eoghanacht talk 13:55, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment it is clear that this is a vote rally by Shanedidona is going on; on Christmas Eve, the user was placing CAoW tags on about two or three users per minute for a total of a 50-60 users. Deckiller 14:07, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete bogdan 14:45, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, as a Catholic m'self. Wikipedia is factionalised enough as it is (and probably doomed to become more so). Deliberate efforts to speed up the process are not welcome. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 14:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Abstain but Comment. I have no interest in keeping or deleting this project. However, I think it was quite inappropriate to delete it while the voting was taking place, and I commend Karmafist for undeleting it (presumably only temporarily). I don't particularly like getting messages from people I don't know asking me to vote on something I've never heard of, though it doesn't send me into convulsions of fury either. But if canvassing for votes is condemned, then sending a request for help to an administrator who has previously shown himself to share one's views on such issues is perhaps a bit "iffy" as well. The validity of votes should depend on whether or not the voters are established members of the community, not on whether or not they found this page by themselves. I'm not going to vote to keep this alliance, but if I did, I would expect my vote to be treated as being absolutely as valid as anyone else's AnnH (talk) 15:50, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • Ann, I share your dislike of the premature deletion. I'll add, though, one point where we might disagree. Since deletion on WP is by consensus, not vote-counting, I believe the closing admin would be within his/her discretion to inquire whether a organized voting-lobby, admittedly built simply to influence these deletion debates, improperly affected the outcome. Discounting some "votes" by members of such a lobby might be in order as sound consensus-seeking process. Xoloz 19:47, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • KEEP The user who put this up for deletion has made anti-Christian statements on Wikipedia and has lied about me to other users. He also eavesdrops on other users talk pages and follows users around. The fact that this user is the one who nominated this section speaks volumes. Dwain 18:36, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - I don't see how the nominator's behavior is relevant to the merits of deleting this page. If the nominator has acted in bad faith, there are other channels for dealing with that. Making these accusations here looks to me like an attempt to obscure the issues under discussion. And by the way, how do you figure that it's improper to read other user's talk pages? There is no expectation of privacy in Wikipedia. -- Dalbury(Talk) 19:44, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Off-topic, but out of curiosity: where have I made anti-christian statements? (Since this is unrelated to this mfd, could you answer at my talk page?)Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 20:45, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - If you are Catholic and you wasted their time by voting to delete you get a nastygram on your user page. Endomion 22:27, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Delete.--Sean|Black 23:57, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Catholic_Alliance_of_wikipedia&oldid=32895146"