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Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)

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Latest comment: 18 years ago by Chris the speller in topic Unresolved issues
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New perspective

Latest comment: 18 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion

There is a new discussion of the naming convention of TV shows at the disambiguation talk page. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 16:42, 11 January 2006 (UTC)Reply

Poll now available for Voting

A new draft poll is available for comment and revision. The poll will begin on January 24 and end February 15, 2006. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 21:49, 20 January 2006 (UTC)Reply

The Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television)/poll has begun and is ready for votes. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 05:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)Reply

Do not begin a mass renaming

Despite the closure of the previous poll, this is still remains a proposed naming convention. Please do not begin renaming shows until this convention arrives at some sort of consensus. Many articles have remained at their title for years without dispute, please do not start changing them until discussions are complete. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 21:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Wiki-discussions or standards are never "complete". That being said, if there is an unusual case, bring it up here. -- Netoholic @ 21:50, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Unresolved issues

Latest comment: 18 years ago56 comments5 people in discussion

I still think that there are some unresolved issues in the naming convention that need to be dealt with. Issues which I have suggested in a follow up poll. As such, I do not think that this proposed policy is ready to be a guideline.

Unresolved issues

  • TV vs. television
  • Television movies
  • Show vs. program/me
  • TV in use with "game show"

While I do not own this article, I have put significant effort into making sure that the first poll has run smoothly, a process which I think has been usurped by an editor who has made controversial edits on this topic in the past. Because of this controversial past, I have put an emphasis on process to make sure that this issue is satisfactorily resolved without dispute, something at which it appears I have failed.

If you feel that these issues need further discussion, please leave suggestion and comments here. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 22:28, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

TV vs. television

The decision was split, but several people in the poll indicated willingness to side with "TV" just to get consensus and consistency. -- Netoholic @ 22:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

  • 14 - 12 is not a majority! Television should be included as an option. If the consensus (and not just two editors) suggest that they were willing to change I would accept this. There needs to be a follow poll or at least a discussion before it becomes standard. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 23:21, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
    • This precise issue is the root cause of many of the frustrations with regards to this page. Most articles today use TV, and even you said you'd change your vote to reach consensus. Don't object on principle. If we want a standard, we need to choose one option. My additions related to industry terminology includes use of (television), so now it's just about "TV series" vs. "television series" (.../movie/program) in programming articles. -- Netoholic @ 00:30, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
      • I'm not objecting to (television) for television related terminology. As I said at the time, it was a good suggestion, but I disagreed with you bypassing process. My objection is that the page as it stands is that it does not say "TV series" or "television series" (.../movie/program). That issue is unresolved and was not included in your updates from my suggested naming convention. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 04:46, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
        • It is not fully resolved, and so the current, long-standing, version of that convention has not been changed. I think you'll agree that some standard is better than none. This page aligns with, by any measure, what most articles presently adhere to. - Netoholic @ 06:08, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
          • Current!? long-standing!? Your proposal was rejected, soundly a long time ago. It never stood on its own. It is not current. It is now in dispute! You are AGAIN trying to force it. There are many shows with television in the title. Respect the opinion of other editors who chose television in the poll and those who use it articles. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 13:23, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
            • I will not continue this thread if you continue to use ad hominem comments. It is unproductive. -- Netoholic @ 15:40, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
              • I am not making ad hominem attacks. My comments are based on your actions of trying to push this into a guideline that you approve before the discussion is complete. [1][2][3] You have already begun renaming shows [[4]], before the discussion was complete. The issue is not yet resolved and yet you continue to push your own interpretation. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 17:33, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Emotions aside, this is a difficult case. Voter overwhelmingly rejected a heterogenous solution (use either TV or Television, depending on what one feels like), but were split right down the middle on which it should be. At the end, one person changed his vote in order to get a consensus, giving "TV" a slight edge, and RR voiced a willingness to do so as well. I voted "television", but I would also be willing to switch for consensus sake. In addition, if a re-vote were held, my gut feeling is that some people would switch from "television" to "TV" simply because it was decided to use "television/TV program/series", and some people would think "television" looks better on its own, but "TV program" looks better as a grouping.

For these reasons, I think we should use "TV" as the standard, and only hold a re-vote if several people think it's important enough to do so. – Quadell (talk) (bounties) 15:50, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Agreed. A straightforward convention is much preferred to a mix standard, but I don't think we should change just yet. Give time for other users to express their opinions either way. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 21:07, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I also agree with this. I did vote for "Television", but I would be happy to accept TV as standard. --Lox (t,c) 20:31, 21 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I like TV (harder to misspell), and it is gratifying to see harmony arising here when the discussion started out with decidedly disparate opinions. Wikipedia is being well served. If "Television" had won, I would be just as happy, because of how the answer was reached. Chris the speller 23:51, 21 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Television movies

"TV movie" is the more frequent usage by far. -- Netoholic @ 22:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Some movies (though rarely) are shown first on TV and then in the theatre. Often when I rent a DVD, I don't care where it was shown. I think a TV movie should simply be disambiguated with (film), just as a direct-to-video movie would be. If there's a TV movie and a theatre movie with the same title, I'd use the year to disambiguate. I don't see Title (TV film) or Title (TV movie) as necessary disambiguators at all. – Quadell (talk) (bounties) 15:58, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

I quite like this as I don't see any reason to disambiguate between a TV film or film. It also avoids the "TV Movie" and "TV Film" debate! --Lox (t,c) 20:35, 21 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Several sources, including the venerable IMDB, treat TV movies as "TV" rather than "film". Take a look at this entry for Hostile Waters, for example. We should not decide naming convention based on solving the "TV movie" vs "TV film" question, but rather on common usage. Television movies are not films. -- Netoholic @ 21:51, 21 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
There are many choices about how to disambiguate, do not appeal to authority. Besides, IMDB chooses to automatically disambiguate all movie productions for television by adding "(TV)", though the most common usage is as you say, TV movie. I would also argue that television movies are films. The method of release do not change it's status, see Film#Film_venues. Direct-to-video films are treated under the same convention, as I would imagine movies strictly released over the internet. The method of release for films outside of the standard Theater-->DVD-->TV is almost always covered in the title sentence of the article, see Hostile Waters (film). That common usage is not changing, simply the disambiguator. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 22:41, 21 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I did not mention IMDB to appeal to authority (If I'd said "We must do this because that is how IMDB does it", you might have me). Instead, I cited it as on source which verifies my assertion that it is most common that the difference between TV movies and films is explicitely shown. Another such authority, in the U.S., would be the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences which does not allow films "which, in any version, receive their first public exhibition or distribution in any manner other than as a theatrical motion picture release" to be considered for the Academy Awards. Likewise, similar television bodies do not consider showings of theatrical releases to be considered for their awards. There is a divide in the culture between films and television movies, and that should be reflected in naming convention. I would have no trouble having an Oliver Twist (film) and an Oliver Twist (TV movie). The distinction is clear. -- Netoholic @ 23:38, 21 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I am fine with (film). I agree that television movies are films. Chris the speller 23:57, 21 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Show vs. program/me

The connotation of "show" implies anything broadcast (repeating series, movies, etc), whereas "program" is more clearly a one-time production or event. -- Netoholic @ 22:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

I will address everything here because I think that the issues are related. News shows are not related to each other in terms of content or coverage. The episodes are presented independently of each other, i.e. they are not in a series. The format may be consistent between shows, but there is no larger context driving the show, each report is independent of each other. News program cover current events not create interconnected stories which are essential to a series. Similarly sketch comedy and variety shows are only loosely connected. There may be recurring characters but each of the sketches are not connected to the previous sketch.
I disagree that program/me or show implies a single non-episodic television - Television special usually covers that concept. Also see Category:Television programs, which covers most episodic television. Category:Television series by country shows that most country have organized series and program/me together. From what I have seen, show/programme is used fairly interchangably for episodic television, and still needs to be resolved, particularly for categories. For example Category:2000s TV shows in the United States .
I've tried to collect most of the shows that use program/me and show
The oldballs are the news programs and sketch comedies, everything else fits into a series or movie. Show and program/me were never used to disambiguate single shows. In such cases of non-episodic shows such as documentaries Category:Television documentaries other disambiguators were used.
There are some other difficult to classify shows, typically produced by PBS such as MotorWeek, This Week in Baseball, This Old House and Square One Victory Garden which only identify themselves as television program or a television show. I would consider these "magazine shows" or as educational shows, but could define them as TV series. Crossfire (TV series) - talk show or series? --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 04:46, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
In the world of one-time programs, there is likely very little naming conflict. "TV program" should be quite rare. In your list, I don't see any that are exceptions to the "TV series" basic rule. News shows and sketch comedy are produced by the same companies, often have the same on-air talent, and are periodically returning - they are rightly considered series. From Television program - "A program may be a one-off broadcast or, more usually, part of a periodically returning television series." I am completely comfortable if not every article fits neatly into the convention, either. I don't want us to complicate things just for a couple exceptions. -- Netoholic @ 06:26, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
You can see that people do not use program/me for one-off broadcasts. Why complicate the issue with AE/BE. Show does the job with the same and has the same context of "one-off broadcast" and episodic television. Furthermore it states in "A one-off broadcast may be called a "special."", this is a specific convention, not ambiguous like program/me.
News shows are not a series which "related set of things that occur one after the other (in a succession) or are otherwise connected one after the other (in a sequence)." They are covering news or more specifically current events. There is no sequence, each show is independent. News shows/soap operas "have daily or weekly episodes, don't go on hiatus, and are not often put into seasons/series." --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 12:06, 17 February 2006 (UTC) Updated 13:48, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps as a comprimise for new shows, sketch shows, magazine style shows and educational shows would use (TV show) since they are not a series. This would simplify the naming and use an commonly used disambiguator --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 15:27, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

  • "TV show" should not be used because it is ambiguous -- it can apply to every type of programming. If I say "What time does that show come on?", am I talking about a news show, a TV movie, a series, a game show? -- Netoholic @ 15:45, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

After reading all these complications, I am more and more convinced that (TV show) would be the best disambiguator. Unfortunately, the community voted overwhelmingly to use TV program[me] and TV series as well as show. So I guess we need to nail down when to use program, series, or show.

It would seem to me that "TV program" should be used only for shows that are clearly programs, and "TV series" should be used only for shows that are clearly series, and "TV show" should be used for shows that are not clearly series or programs. Any way we do it, we'll have to do lots of rds. – Quadell (talk) (bounties) 16:06, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

In most cases only (TV) and (television) is needed for disambiguation, but most people prefered to have something after it; series was a naturally choice. The problem is that not all productions fit neatly into the categories of series, game show and talk show. Show is most appropriate and only other option. This is not problematic because in all of the cases you are distinguishing a television product from something else, not a television show from another television show. I'm also not sure that program/me was overwhelmingly voted for. I would have supported show if I had chosen the bottom option. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 16:45, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Animated television series

Cartoon, TV series and animated series are common disambiguators. I think these should use "TV series" by default and animated series only when disambiguating from other shows. Cartoon should be depricated. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 04:46, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Game shows

TV + "game show" feels extremely redundant, and the way things have srpung naturally, "game show" alone has been preferred. -- Netoholic @ 22:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

  • There are radio game shows, radio talk shows. This would keep it consistent with the naming convention. Plus if TV + something is redundant why do we need TV in front of "series" when (television) would do? --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 23:21, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
  • Most radio game shows eventually transferred onto television, and so would be best handled together in one article - "TV game show" would be too limiting in that case. "Series" and "miniseries" can apply to other media, especially books and comic books. Those titles are more likely to overlap with TV shows, especially shows based off of books. In that case, the (book) and (TV series) are more likely to be separate articles. -- Netoholic @ 23:43, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
(game show) is fine. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 04:46, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

I would use (game show), and only use (TV game show) if the article is specifically about the TV version and not the radio version. – Quadell (talk) (bounties) 16:12, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

(game show) is a winner. Get it? Chris the speller 00:00, 22 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Soap operas

While some of the articles at Category:Soap operas use (soap opera), just as many use (TV series). I think it should be clear that only (soap opera) if there is another television with the same name --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 23:44, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Disagree for the same reasons as (game show). Many soap operas started on radio, and so using "TV series" would not be right. Also, soap operas have daily or weekly episodes, don't go on hiatus, and are not often put into seasons/series. "Series", has a connotation of being a show that has a "yearly" cycle of episodes. -- Netoholic @ 23:49, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
SOME soaps started on radio but that doesn't mean that period can't be covered in the article. Not all relevant material about a person or topic needs to be covered in the title. Why should another classification be created when the category is available. Series also has other connotations which implies an ongoing product. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 23:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
At this moment, I'm unconvinced that Category:Soap operas is very good. Looking at some entries, it seems many articles don't fit that genre. Several included are merely female-oriented dramatic programs, and not soap operas. -- Netoholic @ 00:02, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Riverdale (TV series), Richmond Hill (TV series), Santa Barbara (TV series) Prisoner (TV series), Dynasty (TV series) Dallas (TV series) are not soap operas?
Also none of the shows using (soap opera) as a disambiguator has a history as a radio soap opera. The disambiguation is not very useful --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 00:04, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
"TV series" is fine... just watch out for articles that may include the history of a radio version. Be careful also of articles named with (soap opera) in Category:Soap operas which may not be television productions. -- Netoholic @ 00:17, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Boy, this is a really tough one. On the one hand, I'd be tempted to use (soap opera) as the disambiguator, so the article can be about "Days of our Lives", covering both the radio and TV incarnations. But it can be quite blurry what is and is not a soap. – Quadell (talk) (bounties) 16:15, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

I agree that it's a little complicated with shows that have both a radio and television history, but all of those shows are the most common usage and would not need to be disambiguated. The transition between TV and radio may not be well covered, but I haven't seen any instances where (TV series) would be problematic for any soap. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 20:53, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Episode articles

Latest comment: 18 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
Episode summaries should be combined onto a single page (List of Knight Rider episodes) or organized as a summary by season (The X-Files (season 1)).

I think that it is generally understood that "season" applies to US series, but other countries (especially the UK) use "series" instead.   — Lee J Haywood 22:34, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

My impression was that in the UK , season and series were interchangable when talking about a "year's worth" of episodes. Also, in the UK, that series can mean both the "year's worth" and the entire multi-year run. I don't want to step into a AE vs BE thing here, just find a way to be consistent without being confusing. -- Netoholic @ 22:42, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Hmm, I suspect that it is the case that they are more interchangeable in the US than in the UK given that the use of "season" is a US invention – but having said that I use both and live in the UK. In the list of television series that include time travel I chose to use "series" due to the need for consistency, since I think it is a more obvious to everyone. I think that this convention should at least make some mention of the alternative, even if to say not to use it in the extreme case. Thanks.   — Lee J Haywood 20:07, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

season is understood but is never used for british tv shows and wiki etiquette is to use the english dialect from the country of origin. Also consensus was recently reached on Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television episodes those guidelines probably need mentioning here. Discordance 21:55, 21 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

The section should probably read something like: "Whilst following the guidelines at Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television episodes the following naming convention should be used:

  • (List of Knight Rider episodes) - for a list of all episodes with very brief summaries
  • (The X-Files (season 1)) - for extended plot summaries grouped by season or another appropiate division, eg. (The Bill (series 1)) for a UK programme."

Red links on page

Latest comment: 18 years ago10 comments3 people in discussion

Can the example links be modified so that they are not red? It looks awful. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 22:57, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

I think the technique makes the convention stand out amongst the other text more clearly. -- Netoholic @ 23:34, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
But no other naming convention uses that technique. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 23:41, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I Was Bold. -- Netoholic @ 23:45, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Being bold doesn't mean that it has to be unattractive. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 23:52, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
I don't find it unattractive, but it's many times more clear and useful. -- Netoholic @ 23:54, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

Then why do all other naming conventions follow another style if the convention is so important to see? --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 23:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

I didn't write them. -- Netoholic @ 00:12, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Other conventions use examples to draw attention. Do you mind if I change it? --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 04:46, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

The tt looks better than my font tags. Thanks. – Quadell (talk) (bounties) 14:40, 17 February 2006 (UTC)Reply

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