Talk:Punched card

2003

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Why is it "punched tape" and "punch card"?

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Hollerith's key punch codes system (zones and values) was implimented as FIPS-14. Just thought it would be nice to mention it here. I have never been able to get FIPS-14 our of my mind, even though I haven't used it in over a decade. Thanks, Matthew Brown Lake Oswego, OR

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some material here moved from "Hollerith" and "Hollerith card", now redirects. See those pages for history. -- Someone else 05:46, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Chad

Question about bits and chad. I worked with punch cards for years. All the places I worked refered to chads as bits (bits of paper), they were even collected in the 'bit bucket'. I never heard the term chad until the 2000 election! Why do so many sites claim bit is short for binary digit instead of 'bit of paper'? Is there any proof that either is correct or incorrect?

. Thanks Dwight DBArrants@starfishnet.com

See Chad (paper) and [1]. --Zigger 04:01, 2004 Jul 4 (UTC)

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The term always used at IBM was neither "bits" nor "chad" but rather "chips." The container which received the punched-out pieces of card was called the "chip box". The term "chad", I believe, was more commonly used in reference to the little paper dots punched out of paper tape. My "authority" on this derives from the fact that I was once employed by IBM as a Customer Engineer (service technician), and my father was once an engineer with the FAA, and worked for many years with teletypewriters (used for aviation weather reports). I played with TTY gear myself, together with my father, in connection with Ham Radio. Dad called the tape punch-outs "chad" and at IBM, the analogous part of a punched card was always a "chip."

I suspect that the references to "chad" in connection with the 2000 election problems in Florida may result from the fact that older news reporters are more familiar with the TTY term, as TTY equipment was used to receive wire-service newsfeeds, often relayed by means of paper tape. Some paper-tape punches were designed to punch little "trap doors" in the tape instead of removing the paper altogether. The holes could still be sensed with pins, but the text could also be printed on the tape because the holes weren't punched out. I have one such antique device (ca. 1942) in my garage, officially called a "Teletype Model 14 chadless printing re-perforator". --RussHolsclaw 06:14, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

My 1967 Random House Dictionary of the English Language defines chad as "the small paper disks formed when holes are punched in a punch card or paper tape." --agr 15:51, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

"Disks" eh? (emphasis above added). Could it be that if the holes are round, they're chad, but they're chips if the holes are rectangular? :-) RussHolsclaw 05:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

There is a discussion of etymology in the article on chad (paper). It was not unusual for IBM to employ terminology that differed from the rest of the industry. --agr 11:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be suggesting that I think chad is a newer term, while citing an etymology that states that the term originates in 1947 (which is wrong... it's much older than that). I don't know which term was the original one, I'm only stating that IBM always seemed to use the term chips, not only internally, but in customer documentation, and even on signs and indicator lights on the equipment. For example, the 2540 card reader/punch, and its predecessor, the 1402, each had an operator's light labelled "Chip Box", which lit when the box was full, or had not been put back in place. Interestingly, it determined both conditions by weight; too light, no chip box; too heavy, the box is full.

I inherited some old Teletype maintenance manuals from my father, dating back to 1942, although he worked on TTY gear even earlier than that. The book on the Model 14 tape reader ("Transmitter-distributor") shows a picture with chadless tape, and a parts book from 1944, for a tape punch unit ("perforator"), lists a "chad chute" as one of the parts. Both of these prove that the etymology giving 1947 is wrong, and probably by much more than the dates in my WW II-vintage manuals.

Still, IBM used the word "chips" for card punch-outs, and undoubtedly did for at least as long, according to the old-timers I met when I first started working for IBM in 1966. It seem probable that Herman Hollerith called them that, too, or IBM probably wouldn't have used that term. It would be interesting to see which term is older. Teletype (AT&T) used "chad", and IBM used "chips". I wonder what term was used at, say, Remington Rand, with their round-holed 90-column punched cards, or Frieden, with their Flexowriter paper-tape typewriter. You seem to be pretty certain that "the rest of the industry" was using the term "chad". Do you have evidence for this assertion?

Speaking for myself, I knew the term "chad" earlier, from my father and the TTY. I only inserted the reference to "chips" because it is the customary word to use in connection with IBM punched cards, and I stated that the term "chad" gained notice in popular culture because it was used in news accounts of the 2000 Election problem in Florida. I suspect that news journalists were more familiar with the term chad, because of the TTY equipment used by wire services. But I never heard an IBMer (other than myself) use the word "chad".

My father, now 94, is still living. I'll ask him how far back "chad" goes, in his memory.

--RussHolsclaw 15:27, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I was concerned the wording gave the impression that chad was only used in connection with punch cards after 2000, which is not the case. The word chip would be a problem today, of course, because it's used for ICs, so that could be a reason the press settled on chad. This article should reflect both terms and there should be a mention of chip in the chad article. I suspected that chad was much older than 1947. You should also cite your teletype manual at that article. I would strongly urge you to get your dad to put his recolections about his work on tape. So much of this information is gettting lost. --agr 17:05, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I talked to my dad on the phone tonight. He started working on Teletype gear in 1939, and the word chad was in common use at that time, by his recollection. As to the ambiguity between card chips and semiconductor ICs, I've often suspected that the little silicon rectangles may have been dubbed "chips" because of their resemblance to card chips, both in size and shape. Of course, I know of no way to confirm this, but it seems logical. They were also called "dice" (or, in singular form, "die") because the silicon wafer is "diced up" to make individual ICs. --RussHolsclaw 05:29, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Usage at 3M. In the 1980s I maintained a line of engineering cameras, readers, printers and card duplicators (the 9x8 series) for 3M Co; The training, engineering and maintenance staff universally used the term 'chad' for the rectangular punchings.

LorenzoB 17:05, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Univac also uses the term chips and the box that collects the chips is called the "Chip Receiver". Source: Univac 1700 Series Operating Instructions, published by Remington Rand Corporation, (c) 1969, 1970. --mikeu (talk) 23:09, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Still in use

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Punchcards are still used for places like carparks etc.

and time cards. RickK 03:54, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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As much as I agree that punch cards probably altered the 2000 election, that hasn't actually been verified, has it? Is that statement not a bit biased? (I'm referring to the "Hanging Chad" section.

Evanbro 00:43, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)

Why is the punched card the size of the 1887 US dollar bill?

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I see quite a number of assertions in discussions around the web that the dollar-bill-size association is an urbam legend. Does anyone have an authoritative source? snopes doesn't say anything on this; I'm going to characterize it as possibly a legend until someone comes up with a cite, not seeing any discussion here to the contrary. Baylink 02:37, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I added a paragraph about this, giving the two most commonly cited reasons, and stating that there is no real evidence for either of them. T-bonham (talk) 08:14, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I added a third reason, the availability of handling equipment for that media size, that I heard in my punch-card-handling days, the mid-1960s. John Sauter (talk) 12:34, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

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I redirected an entry on dimpled and hanging chad here because this was better written, but maybe we should move the hanging chad section of this article to that page and refer to it? RJFJR 02:38, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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The first punchcards were used by the french weaver Basile Bouchon in 1725, and improved by Falcon a few years later.

Port-A-Punch details

Is it worth mentioning that the Port-A-Punch only permitted 40 columns to be punched (skipping alternate columns to keep the card somewhat stronger), or that it was used for coding and storing programs for the Monroe 1665 Programmable Calculator (presumably under license)?: http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/monroe1665.html , http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/monpcard.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.17.114.137 (talk) 08:12, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

What did Hollerith's patent describe?

Does anyone know what Hollerith patented? This reference http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/history.html says that "Babbage's proposed use of cards played a crucial role in later years, providing a precedent that prevented Hollerith's company from claiming patent rights on the very idea of storing data on punched cards." It may be that Hollerith patented the size of card if it's correct that he wasn't able to patent the general idea of punched cards. Can anyone help? Adrian Robson 10:31, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Hollerith patented a complete system for processing the cards. See his patents from 1889: U.S. patent 395,781 U.S. patent 395,782 U.S. patent 395,783--agr 16:53, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Merge with punched tape?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Oppose- Paper tape and punch card are completely different media: different shape, thickness, hole size character encoding, readers and writers, history, time frame, etc. The only thing they have in common is paper (and some paper tape was made of mylar). --agr 16:45, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Oppose and comment- While they share some heritage back with weaving looms, cards went for a lot of information on single discrete units, tape went for information spread across one long unit. Ronabop 04:27, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Oppose- I added link to Punched tape in See also, which seems to be much more useful than merging disparate articles. Slark 07:19, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Oppose- I agree. User:Ray Van De Walker

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Inquiry on corner-cuts

I worked for IBM for a number of years as a Customer Engineer, trained on the inner workings of a number of punched-card machines made by IBM. During that time, I never saw a machine that had a "corner cut switch" to stop the machine when a corner cut was either present or absent. The machines just didn't have any corner-cut detection hardware at all. The only exception to this I recall was that some machines, notably card sorters, had a special extra-cost feature called "master/detail", which could use corner cuts to distinguish a "master" card (with information about, say, an account), and "detail" cards that were inserted into the deck behind their respective "masters". When turned on, the effect of this master/detail detection hardware was to cause the detail cards to be automatically sorted into the same pocket as the last master card detected.

Does anyone out there have any specific information about the allegation that machines had a corner-cut detector for the purpose of detecting cards that were not oriented correctly? If so, please provide details, such as the make and model (or IBM machine-type number) of the machine in question. It seems to me that this assertion in the article may have been an uninformed conjecture on the part of the person who entered it, and is not backed by any true knowledge. --RussHolsclaw 18:05, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Special feature 4714 for IBM model 24 and 26 keypunches supported interspersed gangpunching based on detection of upper left or upper right corner cuts.[2]]. This was presumably for shops that didn't have a reproducer like an IBM 514, the usual machine for gangpunching. --John Nagle (talk) 05:37, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

5081 cards

Punch Cards (80 col, hollerith format) were also informally called "5081 cards". 5081 being the IBM part number printed in very small letter along the bottom of the card. This part number was likely for a standard punch card, with the stock printing across all 80 columns. Not certain, but I would expect a different number for other styles of printing (or possibly if the corner was cut on the other end).

Cards were typically available in buff (sort of an off beige natural color), red, green and blue.

There were thousands of different card types, each with its own stock number. Large organizations, such as universities, would have cards with their logo in the background. Other punch card suppliers often used the IBM part numbers. I have 5081 cards, which are plain with no column dividers, from Globe and BSC. You can still buy 5081's from Cardamation.com for $32/box of 2000. The standard Fortran card was 888157. I have examples from IBM, CDC and JTC. I have some Princeton University Fortran cards marked IBM N26238 and Stevens Institute of Technology marked JTC 11121.

You could order cards in a wide variety of colors. It was more common, though, to get buff cards with a colored stripe along the top.--agr 03:23, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

The cards typically had a small numeral 9 printed on the bottom edge and a 12 printed on the top. This was because cards were usually fed face down, 9 edge first into the reader, with a sticker on the hopper thus instructing the operator. This inevitably led to the question "which is the 9 edge?", since that isn't intuitively obvious to the casual observer since the bottom of 12 rows would be the 9 row (the top two had various names, the bottom ten were row zero through 9). -anon165.2.186.10 22:02, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I worked on an 1BM 1401 with an 1402 card reader in the '70's. The machine indeed would stop if there was a card in upside down. I think instead of looking at the cut, it would look at the code in the card. If it made no sense (not a valid character), then the program would stop. It would give you an error. You would then do a "runout" and change the orientation of the card. Other machines did the same, The CDC 3300 also would stop on an card being upside down. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.91.217.105 (talk) 21:15, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you could reliably detect an upside-down card this way. Many characters produce a perfectly valid (but different) character when turned upside-down. This is especially true of numbers, and it was quite common to have data cards that were entirely numeric. T-bonham (talk) 07:35, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

How many punch cards are needed to store the same amount as a DVD?

I read this somewhere, and it was some ridiculously high number. I've forgotten what it was. Does anyone know? That could be an intersting fact to add to the artical. --Richy 15:08, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

A 4.7 GB DVD, with 80 characters per card, would require about 58 million cards, or a stack about 10 km high. Using binary format you could do a bit better, 120 bytes per card, but most punch card systems would have trouble dealing with them. --agr 19:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Pre-IBM Cards

I started programming on the Lyons Leo towards the end of its life in 1962: it used a 20-column card of the same height as the IBM cards, but thicker. This machine was the first non-military commercial computer anywhere and predates IBM's foundation. The 20-column cards had a row of round chad-holes punched about a quarter of an inch down from the top edge which were cut into by scissors to create a binary sort using a thin wire, in case you ever dropped the deck. The slope was there to ensure you put them back the right-way round before sorting: there's no use sorting 01101 into 10110 just because you picked the card up the wrong way round! The first 80-column cards were pre-cut with the entire set of platelets tacked by their corners: the card was placed on a plastic mask to support it while you punched out the code removing the individual holes you needed by hand. The problem was that after 2 or 3 runs, the bending of the card started popping other platelets out, so you had to redo the entire thing. Naturally, card-punch machines came along soon afterwards. --Jel 4 July 2006

Those sound like Royal McBee Keysort cards.[3]. I think there was a British equivalent of Keysort, and it may have been that system. --John Nagle (talk) 18:39, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

French customs story

I removed the following story. There are many good stories from the punch card era. This one may even be true, but it doesn't belong in the article unless it can be verified and it is notable in some way. --agr 21:28, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

A story that has made several rounds involves a French company that had a program written for them on punch cards by a US company. The story says that whenever the French company tried to use the program it wouldn't work, even though the programmers said it worked for them. After several tries, which involved sending a new shipment of cards each time without success. Finally someone accompanied the cards along the way. It was discovered that as was common practice to remove samples, French Custom Officials were removing a few cards at random from each shipment thereby causing the program not to function.

500lb Keypunch?

The keypunch machine was a complex electromechanical device and weighed about 500lb, from article. I can't recall ever moving one, but this is hard to believe. Any source for the this? Else it should be removed. 69.106.254.246 06:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Columns 73-80 were reserved ...

Looking at the IBM 704 manual, http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/704/24-6661-2_704_Manual_1955.pdf, it states on page 39 that "Only 72 columns of the standard IBM card, however, can be read.". It's not a surprise then that the 1956 Fortran manual for the IBM 704 on page 8 states "Columns 73-80 are not read by FORTRAN and may be punched with any desired identifying information.".

How or where, with the passage of time, did that change to "Reserved for"? Where is the source for such a blanket statement? Computer installions may have made such a rule, but that rule would be for that installation, not for all punched cards.69.106.232.37 21:16, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I changed the text, dropping "reserved for". Is that better? Use of sequence numbers was a wide spread practice . It's mentioned in Organick's Fortran IV Primer p.182. --agr 23:35, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. For me there is a big difference between "reserved for" and "could be used". Thanks again, 69.106.232.37 06:14, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that was an IBM 704 thing, and it made it into FORTRAN. The 704 was a 36-bit machine, and the card reader transmitted the bits from each card to the CPU as two 36-bit words. The 704 then had to "turn the corner" (convert the row-wise information to column-wise information by transposing the bit matrix) in software. The hardware could read any 72 columns, if you wired the card reader's plugboard appropriately, but the usual setup was to read columns 1-72. The 704 was a real stored-program computer, but the card peripherals and the printer were all based on plugboard-wired tabulating machines. IBM was still inching their way into all-electronic computing at that point. The 709 had the same set of clunky peripherals, but the 1401 and 7090, the transistorized machines, used completely different peripherals not based on old unit record equipment, and plugboards disappeared at last. --John Nagle (talk) 06:04, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Intro and recent edits

I edited the intro to add a statement as to what punch cards were and to eliminate bullets, which aren't good style for an intro. I would also question moving "programming in the punch card era" to computer programming. Computer programming is a big subject and the punch card story is is a detail of history that doesn't deserve that much coverage in the main computer programming article. I think it fits better here. Finally, I have some 5081 cards and a Remmington Rand card that I will scan and add to the article. --agr 02:39, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the intro improvements, looking forward to seeing your images.

I moved "computer programming in the punch card era" to "computer programming" because it had little to do with punched cards, didn't deserve that much coverage here! Think about the prospective readers: someone reading about computer programming might find "the old days" interesting; but for someone reading about punched cards, there is very little in the story. I'd be distressed to see it return here without more discussion. And if it's not in the best "computer programming" place, people editing those articles can take care of it as they see fit. The Punched Card article is now about punched cards; non-Hollerith history move to History of computing, keypunch text has been moved to keypunch, unit record text to unit record, cryptography text & such deleted, and computer programming moved to computer programming.

There are some things still missing:

• the Hollerith formats between 24 and 45 columns
• a description (list) of the things that punch the cards
• references/pointers to ISO standards for card size, card codes
• a Charlie Brown cartoon where the tooth fairy has left an IBM Card check for $.10 - do not fold spindle ... and Charlie makes some comment about modern methods.

(btw, I did leave a "See also" for the computer programming text) (and, almost 70, the old days were my days too -- I recognized the story - so it wasn't moved by someone who didn't appreciate the story)

thanks again, 69.106.232.37 08:03, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

IBM Votomatic

The article text asserts that the Votomatic card was a Port-A-Punch card. Is that know to be true, or is it an assumption based on similar construction of the cards? If true, then IBM Votomatic is an application and should not have its own heading under Card Formats. 69.106.232.37 15:22, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

FOLDOC footer

The FOLDOC footer is currently inserted like this:

In part, {{FOLDOC}}

Which renders like this:

In part, This article was originally based on [...]

The problem is that the word "this" is capitalized when it shouldn't be, which is ugly. We need to SUBST the template and decapitalize the 'T', or we need to just remove the "In part," portion (possibly rewording the template itself to allow "partially based" content), or we need a new template. I'm not sure which would be the Right Thing. - furrykef (Talk at me) 00:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Jacquard's Loom?

Why does the article credit Hollerith with the invention when the textile industry had been using punched cards since 1801? Hollerith must have been aware of these machines since they were in common use in his time.

Hollerith developed their use for data processing. I tweaked the article to make that clearer.--agr 15:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes - but this article is about punched cards - not about data processing. I've researched further and even Jacquard was not the first. To give credit to Hollerith is to miss out on a two hundred years throughout which punched cards were in regular use for textile looms! I've added a few sentences to the top of the 'History' section - but the introductory section is still grossly misleading. Even that misses out on yet earlier applications for punched paper disks in musical boxes. SteveBaker 00:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

This article is about the Hollerith punched card, not about punched cards in general. See the very 1st line of article, beginning "This article is about ....". tooold 17:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

And, if you'll look at the "08:43, 5 October 2006" version, you'll see that trying to have some history in punched card card and some in "History ..." didn't work. Neither was a summary of the other, neither had all the details that were present. The image that you've added here is not present in "History ...", so were back to those same problems. It looks likes I had, at that revision, left a pointer to "History ...", now gone. I really wish that you'd remove the history additions, getting it right in one place is hard enough. If "Punched Card" expands its scope, then we get edge punched cards, ... I forget what all got cleaned out.

If you want an article about a limited subset of punched cards then make one - but don't call it "Punch(ed) card" - call it "Hollerith card" or something. An article named "Punched card" needs to be about ALL punched cards - and that's really not open for debate. The FULL history of the punched card doesn't remotely start with Hollerith. The way the article was before I added to it suggested that Hollerith woke up one mornining and had the bright idea of storing data by punching holes in bits of cardboard - when in fact, nothing could be further from the truth. He had known of the use of card technology in looms, musical boxes and player pianos. Omitting those from the history of the punched card is to do a terrible disservice to all who preceeded Hollerith. So - let's tell the whole truth. SteveBaker 20:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Would you accept Hollerith, IBM, and UNIVAC Punched Cards for the title? That is, I believe, exactly what the article is intended to cover. Given that title would you allow the article text to note that other manufactures could make those same cards? If "Yes, Yes" then make the change, fine with me.

Well, I would - but then I'd have to start a whole new article about punched cards in general - copying all of that material over. Why do you think Hollerith cards need to be discussed to the exclusion of all earlier punched cards? It's not at though the article is overly long or that adding the discussion of earlier forms of punched card distracts from the Hollerith stuff. The reason I arrived here in the first place is that I've been doing a major re-org of the article Computer and needed to link to an article about punched cards (in the context of the Jacquard loom and how punched cards from the textile industry fired off the Hollerith card concept - which in turn lead to IBM, etc. When I arrived here (as anyone naturally would if looking for that kind of information) - I was horrified to find an article that essentially said that Hollerith invented the punched card in 1890 - which is utter nonsense! We need an article that's called "Punched card" and which describes the entire history - from 1725 all the way up to the late 1970's (I was still using them as late as 1977 - so they probably didn't die out everywhere until the early-1980's). To slice off just the last 80 years of the history seems strange to me. But - as I said, if you strongly feel that you have so much to say about Hollerith cards that it would stretch to a really long article - then you should make the 'fork'. Personally, I think there is room in one article for Bouchon, Jacquard, Hollerith, the IBM 029 - and everything in between. SteveBaker 22:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

"Why do you think Hollerith cards need to be discussed to the exclusion of all earlier punched cards?" Because this article is one of several relating to Electronic Data Processing, (EPD), not about the history of punched cards in general.

General punched card history is in History of computing hardware#1801: punched card technology. The relationship between Jacquard and Hollerith cards belongs at that level. Someone reading about Hollerith technology doesn't need to know details about Jacquard; someone reading about Jacquard technology doesn't need details about Hollerith.tooold 01:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

But what do you think someone who types "Punched card" into the search box expects to find? It could be either the Jacquard or the Hollerith variety - or they could be concerned with the overall history of punched cards, needing discussion of both. You have no idea which...so an article with this name absolutely must cover all of those things. If the information is duplicated in History of computing hardware then there is a case for slimming down that article (which at 42Kbytes is WAY too long already) and sticking a {{main|Punched card}} in there. With these very long articles, we need to push the details out into daughter articles like this one - not pile more and more text into an already overly large article. I've been working for months on slimming down the main Computer article in this way (and it's still too long) - but pushing data down into yet more detailed articles is the only way to go. SteveBaker 18:50, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

btw, thank you, thank you, for the name change! It wasn't American's, I'd never heard the term "punch card" until this article and have no idea where "punch card" came from. My guess had been the English! I've renamed a lot of articles, mostly adding "IBM" or other vendor names ("System xyz" is not informative), but was reluctant to change this one for only the reason that I would like my name better. tooold 17:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

No - I'm British (although I live in Texas) and we Brits hate the tendancy to drop the 'ed' in these cases. I've been seeing it more and more over the past 10 years - another example that comes to mind was that I was at a Chinese restaruant last night - and right there on the menu: "Fry Rice"...ack!...it's "Fried Rice" for chrissakes! SteveBaker 20:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

there is a "09:42, 9 June 2003" edit, "punched back to punch" by a user "212" in superscript -- might ask that user why.

article name change

Hollerith, IBM, and UNIVAC Punched Cards

Proposed name seems too long to me. How about "Punch card (data processing)" or "Punched card (data processing)"? Then have a disamb page "Punch card" (or "Punched card") for pointing to "Punch card (textile industry)", "Punch card (data processing)" and any others anyone dreams of. -- RTC 06:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

But this article isn't overly long - and the topics are definitely related - why on earth do we need to split it? I simply do not understand why you feel the need to hide the prior history of punched cards from readers who are interested in Hollerith cards. This is ridiculous. SteveBaker 13:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I didn't propose splitting it... I was just commenting on the proposed title made by someone else... a name that long will be totally non-obvious and impossible for someone that doesn't know the subject to even find. -- RTC 01:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Inspiration for Hollerith card

What I was told was Hollerith's inspiration to use punched cards for the census data was observing a train conductor punching tickets (a punch in one spot for a man, another for a woman, another for a child, another for something else, etc.) so that when he came back again and checked tickets another time he could inspect the punches and verify that the ticket was for the right passenger, destination, etc. and had not been "passed on" to someone that hadn't bought it. Hollerith decided he could use a similar coding system for census data, but would need some level of mechanical assistance to punch and read the many holes he would need (the conductor only needed to punch a small number which could be verified at a glance). -- RTC 01:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

"Do not fold, spindle or mutilate"

Does anyone have an image of a punch card with the exact words "Do not fold, spindle or mutilate", or is it an iconic phrase that never actually appeared on any punch card? I have seen images of punch cards with similar warnings, but not that exact warning.Anthony717 06:33, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

An example, but not quite meeting your needs, is a Peanuts cartoon strip. The tooth fairy leaves a punched card check instead of the usual (at that time) dime, the phrase (I don't recall exact wording) is quoted and the character observers that modern times require improved methods. tooold 18:33, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The warning was mostly printed on cards that were issued to the general public for later return, such as time card, bills and checks. Examples of these are harder to find, since they were returned and destroyed. Cards used by programmers and the like did not have the warnings. It was quite common, though later usage was often shortened to just "Do Not Mutilate." Fifty years from now, it might be hard to prove that 404 messages really appeared on the Web. Who saves them?--agr 20:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The Lubar external link is to a paper where note 12 identifies a document with such examples. Let us know if you can get a copy of that document.tooold 02:37, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

This collection has a card with "Do not fold or mutilate". http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/collection/i-applied.html tooold 02:46, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I've just added a book ref (in See Also) that might have such an example. Would be nice to have a review here or possibly added to the book ref. tooold 03:57, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

____________________________________________________________________________________________

Oh the joy, the primal fun, the liver quiverin' delight of our anti-establishment hippie-type endeavors when the ever-present punch cards filling society back in the 1960s and 1970s were firmly grasped and using a sharp razor blade or x-acto knife-type device additional holes were cut into the punch card before sending it on its way.

It was the groovy thing to do at the time and we in the crash pad oft-times wondered to what extent our efforts "messed with 'the man' and if our efforts ever caused any despair within the evil corporate structure. Obbop (talk) 16:24, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

EAM cards

When RCA was in the mainframe business they referred to punched cards as "EAM cards" (Electronic Accounting Machine cards). Should "EAM card" redirect here? Nibios 16:42, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Merge Aperture card

The text in Aperture card is redundant with the more complete text in Punched cards. This merge request is so that the Aperture card article can be deleted, replaced by a redirect to Punched card. tooold 13:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

If anything, aperture card should merge to Microform. The most important aspect of this technology is the film, not the punch card. I think there is enough to say about them that a separate article can be justified, however. They are still in use, you can still buy equipment for making them, there is a lot of conversion to digital going on, claims of better archival quality, etc.--agr 13:56, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

If machine processing/retrievability is not important then there are other technologies that people use. Microfiche, microfilm. The proposal is about the articles as they stand (redundant), not about some future article. The punched card article itself might be split up someday if non-IBM machines were to be described in the same level of detail, or if ... or if .... tooold 13:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Oppose - The previous comment raises a good point. Since an aperture card combines the two technologies, it ought not be merged with either. I improved the aperture card article a bit to illustrate the combination and provide some references. It should be able stand on its own now. -- Austin Murphy 15:37, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

If "combines the two technologies" is the criteria for separate articles then mark sense cards should be in a separate article. So should punch cards used as checks, bonds, ... Punched cards and financial instruments are very different technologies. Punched cards were used for a lot of different technologies - remember their use as ballots? What advantage is there for the Wikipedia user in breaking the article into multiple paragraphed-sized articles. All that would be accomplished is to make a coherent understanding of punched card use almost impossible. Or do you have some rule, or rules - if the technologies have property x, y, ..., then separate?

Is there some problem with the punched card article? Confusing? Too long? Disorganized? If no problems, then shouldn't Occam's razor apply - the simpler organization is better. Is maintainability a Wikipedia concern? In the absence of identified problems, a single article is more likely to be consistent than two articles are to be consistent with each other.

What advantage did you gain for the Wikipedia user by making the Aperture article an almost copy of the punched card article text? If the claimed advantage is only that opening the aperture article positions you immediately at the aperture text, then you would seem to be arguing again for every topic in every Wikipedia article to become a separate article. tooold 09:52, 15 November 2007

I removed the merge tags. The Aperture article is no longer copy of the punched card article text.--agr (talk) 21:03, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Image: A CTR census machine, utilizing a punched card system

The image at beginning of article is identified as a "CTR census machine" which, of course, it is not. How can the source be located so that both the source and the Wikipedia entries can be corrected? Thanks, 69.106.242.20 (talk) 16:19, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Hollerith encoding

- Hollerith encoding was a standard for punch cards used in early computers. Until the early 1980's, the use of these punch cards was a common form of computer input.
- These punch cards were 80 columns by 12 rows in size, and in the Hollerith encoding scheme, had one BCD character per column.
- An artifact of this early "standard" is that most character-based terminals used an 80-column by 24-row size. Even now, the default size for character interfaces remains set at 80 columns.

I merged the above here from Hollerith encoding, intending to integrate it into the article, removing redundancies, but ran out of time. Yes, it's largely redundandant, that's why it's being merged. But something should be said. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:43, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

When did card size standardize?

The Columbia history site says that Hollerith used 3.5 by 7.375 inch cards in the 1890 census. This appears to be contradicted by Hollertih's 1889 and 1895 articles. In particular, the card format in the 1895 article has a very different aspect ration than the standard card. Also the standard punch card is a little bigger than a large-sized note, which puts the currency box claim into question. (Hollerith produced over 60 million punched cards for the 1890 census--ordering custom containers does not seem like a big issue.) The version I heard was that in 1928, T J Watson pulled out a dollar bill to settle a dispute among his engineers as to what the standard size should be, but that may well be legend. Does anyone have sources as to when the punched card size got standardized? --agr (talk) 13:37, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

How about the size being standardized several times?

Trusdell reports a different size, 6 5/8 by 3 1/4, as planned for the 1890 census. "Planned for", of course, is not the same as "used". The early cards were punched with a modified ticket punch and holes were set near the edges (Trusdell p.39). For obvious reasons Hollerith developed better card punches and did so before the 1890 census processing: the Pantograph and the Gang Punch. Truesdell p.44 reports the pantograph still in use in 1920. Thus the 1st answer to your question: when Hollerith built the pantograph that iron standardized card size for about 38 years: from 1890 to 1928.

"To 1928" assuming the 80 column 3 1/4 by 7 3/8 was not the same as the prior card. The 1928 IBM card set an informal standard.

Then there is ISO 1681:1973 (and likely a corresponding American standard) setting a formal standard. I do not know if their were earlier ISO or ANS or ANSI standards.

Found an IBM 010 description in Gille. The 010 had a selective feature: 80, 66 or 51 column fixed feed. A 66 column card is new to me. 69.106.242.20 (talk) 15:32, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

First of all, to be clear, I'm talking about IBM's internal standard set in 1928. That was the big event. This standard was later adopted by others, e.g. Remington Rand and is still in use today. I have an American Airlines ticket I used a few weeks ago that is exactly punch card size and stock, but has no holes (mag stripe and 2-D bar code). Formal standards for punch cards came much later (ANSI X3.21 - 1967, FIPS 13 & 14) and simple describe long existing practice. I suspect that early on, Hollerith may have been willing to alter card size to meet the needs of large customers. The pantograph design could have been modified pretty easily by replacing the punch die, guides and index plate. Again the story I heard long ago was that IBM engineers were arguing about what the standard size should be and Watson settled it by pulling a dollar bill out.

I too remember the 010. I suspect that the 51 and 66 col feeds refer to 80-col cards with detachable stubs. The 010 seems have been used with older round-hole cards, see http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/ljc-machines.jpg which I believe shows an 010 at the top. It comes from our article's ref 8 which shows the 45 col cards as well. The 010s may have been upgraded when rectangular holes became the standard. --agr (talk) 20:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Other variations on punched cards

There were a few other types of punched cards not mentioned. One was a "Kimball tag" (see U.S. Patent #4,602,151 for an example), which was a small round-holed punch card used in retail systems. Stores used these on merchandise before bar codes. System 3 punched cards had the same hole spacing as Kimball tags, but were bigger.

UNIVAC supported "160 column cards" on a few machines. The UNIVAC 1004 and some UNIVAC computer peripherals could read both 80 column (80x12, rectangular hole) and 6-bit coded 90 column (45x12, round hole) cards. As a side effect, they could use the 6-bit code with 80x12 cards, resulting in a "160 column card". This never caught on. --John Nagle (talk) 18:51, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Punch card

Why were all references to "punch card" removed from the article? That is an established usage and according to WP guidelines probably is the proper name for the article. But even if not it needs to be mentioned. Apparently it's because someone thinks it "should be" punched based on some linguistic gobbledygook? Gr8white (talk) 18:27, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

One could also reasonably argue that it's not really a "punched card" until it actually has holes punched in it, as opposed to the established usage of "punch card" to refer to the cards themselves. Gr8white (talk) 18:31, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Gr8white is correct. Rwwww, I know that your changes were in good faith, but they are imposing prescriptivism onto usage that has already long been established (nearly a century). Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary under the entry "punch card" gives 1919 as the date of first attestation. So for the past 91 years people have been calling them "punch cards" as well as (and probably more often than) "punched cards". The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 4th edition, also has an entry for "punch card". Regarding (as Gr8white put it) linguistic gobbledygook, in fact no linguistic scientist would agree that natural language vocabulary can be revised by fiat to the degree shown here. Your analysis of participles is fine; it's just that natural language doesn't always act according to the way that any prescription would predict. It does in fact evolve according to natural rules, but they are usually more complicated and additive (multifactorial) than prescriptive rules. The fact that "punch card" and "punched card" are synonymous and both acceptable must be restored to the article. Regards, — ¾-10 02:32, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I've restored "punch card" to the article's first line but, I hope, only temporarily. The Wikipedia requirement is Use clear, precise and accurate terms. That is not the same thing as English as she is spoke. "punch card" has certainly been used, even in the title of a few books, notably in Truesdell's "The Development of Punch Card Tabulation in the Bureau of the Census, 1890-1940". However, ill-formed, missing the English language's required "ed" or "ing" suffix (and thus ambiguous) it is overshadowed by the extensive use of the correctly formed "punched card"

Just to be sure, I pulled out some of the serious histories (not popularizations) and checked their indexes:

• Aspray, Computing before computers
• Cortada, Before the Computer
• Fisher, IBM and the U.S. Data Processing Industry
• Willams, A History of Computing Technology
• Randell, The origins of Digital Computers

In each case, the only term indexed is "punched card". So, is the term "punch card" used elsewhere? Of course. Is it appropriate for encyclopedic use, for Wikipedia? No, "used" is not the only criteria. Wikipedia is serious history; the clear, precise and accurate (and widely used!) term is "Punched card"; the casual "punch card" should simply be noted. tooold (talk) 18:36, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

OK, I am OK with presenting "punched card" as the preferable term and using it consistently throughout the article, as long as "punch card" is kept in the lede as an established variant (as opposed to it disappearing). Here's why. I understand your argument, but I disagree with your opinion of Wikipedia's balance point on the descriptive-vs-prescriptive spectrum. By your argument we would have to annihilate the following well-established terms from the English language. It can't happen; even languages that have academies cannot stop the populace from using natural language, which is certainly influenced by prescription but never totally controlled by it. And even if it could happen, Wikipedia is not a language prescription or enforcement tool; it reflects all established usage and does not tell the reader that one form is mandatory. We need to show "punch card" as a common variant. I am fine with the footnote arguing that "punched card" is superior. But "punch card" must not disappear.

Well-established term	Supposed prescription for total replacement	Comment
punch press	punching press	Both OK
roll pin (pressed-in fastener)	*rolled pin	Only the first is in prevalent usage
press fit	*pressed fit	Only the first is in prevalent usage
permanent press clothing	*permanently pressed clothing	Only the first is in prevalent usage

— ¾-10 01:35, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

You don't omit pertinent information from an article because it conflicts with your preconceived notions of linguistic correctness. Period. Gr8white (talk) 02:14, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

The term "punch card" was widely use (e.g. Organick, A Fortran IV Primer, Chapter 13 "Preparation of Punch Card Program Decks."), as was "punched card". The problem with the later term is that some cards might not, in fact, be punched. In particular, what do you call the contents of a box of blank cards? I believe punch card felt more natural for this reason. They were cards designed for punching, whether they had holes in them or not. To this day, some airline tickets are printed on punch card stock, but they have no holes.--agr (talk) 02:19, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

Punched card → Punch card — clearly the more popular term. "punched card"==400k ghits; "punch card"==633k ghits. 65.94.71.179 (talk) 05:08, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• Comment this article started at "punch card" and was renamed to match British spelling apparently... which seems to violate WP:ENGVAR/WP:RETAIN. 65.94.71.179 (talk) 05:15, 12 January 2011 (UTC)