Talk:Antonin Scalia

Characterisation

I think the general characterization of Scalia here is a bit simplistic: it's true that when the mainstream media splits the court into "conservative" versus "liberal" that Scalia falls on the "conservative" side. However, he's much more libertarian (in the civil liberties sense) than, say, Thomas or Rehnquist, and so doesn't fit into the law-and-order give-government-more-powers type of conservatism they sometimes are willing to sign on to. For example, he joined with Stevens, widely considered one of the Court's most liberal justices, in a scathing opinion in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld that said the Bush administration's policy of holding US citizens without trial was indefensible on any Constitutional grounds (Thomas, by contrast, made a "national security is important" argument). --Delirium 06:09, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it is entirely accurate to class Scalia's opinion in Hamdi as 'liberal'. Though the point that the conservative-liberal dichotomy blurs important nuances is a good one, Scalia's treatment of the holding of U.S. citizens without trial was only presented insofar as to restrict the application of rights of 'enemy combatants' on the basis of quasi-territorial jurisdiction. It might perhaps be safer to simply argue that Scalia's position is fundamentally originalist and that his 'liberal' or 'conservative' decisions are inevitably placed within the context of restricting judicial powers and preserving the prerogatives of Executive and Congress. He argues that 'If civil rights are to be curtailed during wartime, it must be done openly and democratically, as the Constitution requires, rather than by silent erosion through an opinion of this Court'.

That quoted bit was one of Scalia's minor points. A careful reading of the opinion reveals that his main concern was that the Executive arrogated the Congressional power to suspend the writ of habeas corpus. He also felt that the Court's solution strayed too close to legislating a palatable solution, and that the only duty of the Court in this case was to recognize the lawlessness of the President's approach and order that it be stopped. I'll also note that Scalia's 'originalist' or 'textualist' interpretational method occasionally places him in seemingly 'liberal' positions in other contexts--flag-burning, for example, or a variety of due process issues less fundamental than the one implicated in Hamdi. Where Scalia earns his archconservative label is in privacy, Establishment Clause, and Eleventh Amendment doctrines. SS451 03:46, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)

What a mess, this page

I think we need to start moving some of these quotes to Wikiquote. Can someone take care of that? I haven't learned how to use the Transwiki feature yet.

Also, many of these quotes are unsourced or uncited. With someone as controversial as Scalia I think it's important that to avoid putting words in his mouth, we should make sure he really wrote them or said them. At least I bothered to supply a cite for the quote from Dickerson!

--Coolcaesar 12:15, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Not a word about Election 2000?

I would think that at least a mention of Bush_v._Gore in the Important Cases section would be warranted, if not a larger more general treatment in the body of the article.

Love Bush or hate Bush, I don't think anyone would deny that Scalia's position on the (unsigned) majority side of the 5-4 decision ended up being pretty damned important.

Index of many links on the topic: http://www.failureisimpossible.com/needtoknow/bushvsgore.htm

The trouble with discussing Scalia and Bush is that he didn't write in that case, and has studiously avoided commenting on the merits of the case for the ensuing five years, AFAIK. This renders comment difficult at best and unfounded speculation at worst.--Simon Dodd 05:07, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Does he go duck hunting?

Yes.--Simon Dodd 05:07, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Taking potshots at other justices

The article says that "In his concurring and dissenting opinions, he frequently takes what may be characterized as sarcastic and biting "potshots" at the other justices, quoting them from past opinions to point out what he considers inconsistencies in their reasoning, or accusing them of inventing legal standards out of thin air." They make it sound like a bad thing. I think it's good that he points out that activitist judges contradict themselves because they just make up the constitution as they go along. As for saying that they invent legal standards out of thin air, if it's right, it's not slander. Scalia for Chief Justice! -- ColdFusion650

I wouldn't change the wording. Knowing nothing about any of the justices, when I read that in Scalia's article I got a favorable impression of the man. Allow the description to stand as is. If accurate, it permits the reader to form his own opinion without excessive influence from the phrasing. Bjsiders 23:17, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

As a moderate, I personally disagree with most of Scalia's views. But I agree that the sentence mentioned is an accurate and neutral characterization of his attacks on his judicial brethren and I see no reason for changing it. --Coolcaesar 22:44, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Restrictions on Electronic Media

I think it needs to be clarified whether he only restricted his speeches to private entities or not. If he was speaking as a Justice, obviously it's a clear 1st amendment issue, but if he simply doesn't want the media at his meetings as a private individual, that's not always necessarily objectionable and needs to be placed before the reader for him to decide. Kade 23:49, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Scalia and "Originalism" vs. "Textualism"

The opening paragraph is wrong -- at least if the legal jargon is used in its technical sense. Scalia disavows "Textualism" -- which in its most basic form is a reliance on the "four corners" of the Constitution for its meaning. A textualist only needs the Constitution and a 1789 Dictionary. Textualism and Originalism are not the same thing. Scalia's version of Originalism is closer to the idea of "Original Meaning." The question an Originalist of this stripe asks when confronted with a question of Constitutional Interpretation is, "what was the public meaning of this clause at the time of ratification?" To get at this, Scalia will reference such external sources as the Federalist Papers, early Court decisions, Convention notes, etc.

Scalia is a strict textualist in reading statutes, not the Constitution. Vincent Vecera 20:37, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

• Scalia disavows strict constructionism, not textualism (Scalia, A MATTER OF INTERPRETATION at p.23), and in any event, neither theory outright deny the utility of structural or extratextual sources to shed light on the meaning of a textual provision. I think Vincent is also incorrect to say that the difference turns on whether one is interpreting a statute or a constitution; rather, the difference turns on when the text was ratified. I think it is mistaken to suggest that there is a division between originalism and textualism, and certainly where Scalia is concerned, I think that becomes clear when one considers the underlying paradigm. Scalia's underlying philosophy (and mine) is that a text means what it meant when it was adopted, and that it "should not be construed strictly and it should not be construed leniently; it should be construed reasonably, to contain all that it fairly means" (ibid.) (that is, the laws - of which the Constitution is one - should be construed reasonably, to contain all that their terms fairly encompass with the scope of the ordinary meaning of that language at time of ratification). Seen that way, textualism and originalism are not opposed concepts; as far as I use them, and as far as I understand Scalia to use them, originalism is best seen as an error-correcting lens which fits over textualism to account for the passage of time. Thus, one would use textualism to evaluate the Twenty-seventh Amendment (proposed 1791, ratified 1992) because it was ratified in 1992, and the plain meaning of the English language has not substantially changed in fourteen years; likewise, if a case turned on a statute adopted by Congress in 1792, you (or certainly I) would use originalism to evaluate that text, because the use of language can certainly have been expected to alter in that time. Simon Dodd 19:36, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Middle Name

I've never seen Scalia's name written with a middle intital--does he have a middle name at all?

• It's Gregory, as per the text. Simon Dodd 19:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

POV problem, article should be rewritten?

I think the article is skewed towards a favorable opinion of Scalia; even before presenting facts on what causes him to be considered a conservative judge, the article eloborates on why he is not really that conservative. To see the point, take the discussion on abortition; there is no discussion on his position on Roe vs. Wade, but rather the articles states he is not really opposed to abortion if legislated at the state level. At many other points, by not touching his conservatice positions at all, the article draws a moderate and favorable view of him. -User: Baroqqque

With due respect, you changed a section that ran "Scalia is considered the Court's leading proponent of constitutional originalism. He is careful to distinguish his philosophy of original meaning from original intent" to read "Scalia is considered the most conservative judge on the supreme court. According to Segal-Cover criteria, he receives a score of -1, placing him at the conservative end of the specturum." As far as I can see, you are advocating MPOV, not NPOV. The only concrete example of the article's "bias" you mention is that you evidently don't realize that the proposition that Scalia's opposition to Roe is a jurisprudential one is supported by numberous opinions and speeches, many of which are linked from this very article. It seems to me that your real beef isn't that the article is POV (if indeed it is, which I doubt), but that it doesn't reflect your POV, which is clearly that he's that mean ol' Nino and must be demonized at any turn and in any forum available. This is not a forum for such flim-flam; if the article neutrally describes its subject and that leaves the reader with a favorable impression, so be it. So: what exactly is it that you think is POV in the article? Specifics, please. Simon Dodd 02:59, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

In addition, if you even begin to replicate in this article your behaviour in Fethullah Gülen (see user contribs), appropriate action will be taken. This article is not going to be turned into a forum for someone to get their greivances about Scalia off their chest, and it will not be the vehicle for a yawnsome edit war. It will be (will remain, in my view) a neutral and informative wikipedia article that conforms to the NPOV standard.Simon Dodd 03:07, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Knowing nothing about Scalia, I read this article and felt it was an excellent, encyclopedic article covering basic biographical information and giving the reader a good sense of who the guy is. In fact, performing other additional research, I felt that this article, if anything, was light on some details of Scalia's intellectual credentials at Harvard (but I don't think the article needs it added to be complete). It seems to me to be a fairly even-handed handling of the guy, I felt it accurately and objectively described his life and made no effort to judge it one way or another. Bjsiders 04:21, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Im not advocating demonizing him, for sure. I thought i made my intention clear; in my reading of the pieces on Scalia, he is almost always described as the most conservative member of the court, yet the characterization in the article presents him as a moderate vilified by uninformed public. Is that really the prevailing view on Scalia? I am not sure.

About Gulen article, my impression is that you have not read the discussion section detail, please do so, and correspond with the moderator on the way I behaved, and if you still have concerns, we could talk about. I honestly think making unspecified and distorted accusations is a cheap shot, or at the very least, unfair. Moreover, if previous record is an indication of bias, I cannot see how taking part in an edit pwar, at the end of which, the moderataor clearly indicated the version that I advocated to be preserved was the NPOV one(check his view on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fethullah_G%C3%BClen#My_revisions_to_Baroqqqe.27s_last_revision), indicates any bias, whereas your record clearly indicates a favorably opinion of the conservative legal philosophy, am I wrong? Also, I wuold appreciate it more if you could dedicate a larger part of your counterargument to argument itself, rather than saluting the principles of wikipedia and trying to present me as a monster. Obviously, I believe in those principles too, and obviously, I also can write high prose with little factual information, but such dicussion really goes nowehere.

I dont intend to make further changes at the moment, I thought the part that I added was noncontroversial, as recently I was going through the articles on supreme court justices and in many the score measuring degree of conservatism, developed by APSR, leading journal in political science, was included. I stand by my point that the article has hidden bias, perhaps not by what is included, but rather what is excluded, and hope others will contribute to the discussion.

Baroqqque 01:26, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. If the article has hidden bias, I see it being against Scalia rather than in favor. The article very clearly lays out Scalia's conservative stripe. Add your bit about his conservative score if you want but don't replace a good objective section of the article that explains WHY Scalia is considered conservative with a number. Bjsiders 16:41, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Editing some liberal scribbes

I removed some slanderous remarks in the education and personal section. Need to check on the children's names, as some of them may have been altered as a joke. Update - removed "Samuel" from list of children's names. Jameswikichen

• I did a rv to Wizard1022 to make sure all the vandalism was removed. In the future, Jameswikichen, when you see this sort of vandalism, the easiest and best way to remedy the problem is just a rv. And we cannot ascribe this vandalism to a "liberal," as articles of all stripes are attacked by vandals. Also, be sure to sign your comments on discussion pages with four tildes, e.g. ~~~~ David Hoag 06:47, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

People who vandalize articles with juvenile nonsense often just enjoy watching the stuffy derision that follows in the discussion page. Just revert stuff like this and don't bother commenting on it. Bjsiders 21:02, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Lawrence v. Texas

I find it interesting and unfortunate that no mention is made of Lawrence v. Texas other than merely being listed under "Important Cases". I think this is one of his most significant rulings in recent history and should at least be briefly mentioned. What do the rest of you think? Thanks.Trojanpony 07:00, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it's certainly a representative opinion in that it's as screwball as Scalia gets. Go ahead and write something up on it and we'll see what sticks. Vincent Vecera 14:10, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

In other words, you think Scalia is a nutcase and want the article to more strongly reflect that opinion? So let's add whatever we can think of to the article that colors it in that direction? Throw enough mud and some of it will stick? That's hardly the sort of intellectual rigor with which we ought to approach edits. I propose that somebody highlight why Lawrence v. Texas is an important case, and if anybody thinks it's representative of Scalia's judicial philosophy, explain why or how. In a perfect world, you might post your edits here first for discussion, especially since you are rather obviously and openly approaching it from a strong POV. Bjsiders 17:14, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

That's right. Vincent Vecera 19:02, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Lol. I just got your joke about intellectual rigor and wikipedia. Well played, sir! Vincent Vecera 19:03, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I didn't make any jokes. I'm glad you found something amusing but the source of your mirth remains a mystery to me. :) Bjsiders 19:32, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Pictures

Does anyone have a more recent offical picture of Justice Scalia to post at the top of his bio? I believe that the one there now is nearly 20 years old.

While an official picture is obviously to be preferred, I think any recent picture free from copyright problems would probably suffice. If you can find a good image where the copyright isn't a problem, feel free to substitute it and move the current picture further down the page. Simon Dodd 19:40, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

LGB rights opposition

I've removed [[Category:LGBT rights opposition|Scalia, Antonin]] from Scalia's categories because I believe it is inaccurate. It seems to me that Scalia opposes judicially-imposed LGB rights, but would be fine with the legislative branch either creating or recognizing (depending on your point of view) LGB rights. (Also, I don't recall any "T" cases coming before the Supreme Court, so I think including that in the acronym is inaccurate anyway.) --Psiphiorg 14:44, 11 April 2006 (UTC)