Talk:Haredi Judaism

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ultra-Orthodox as a pejorative term

Many view the term "ultra" Orthodox as pejorative, and prefer "haredi". Should this be incorporated into the article, or at least some mention be made of it? Jayjg 03:31, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Not without documentation of the extent of this interpretation. --Zero 07:46, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

As I've pointed out in another talk page, the main Jewish FAQ points out regarding the term "Ultra-Orthodox"

In practice, the term is usually used as a disparaging synonym for Orthodox or Chassidic. What passes for an unremarkable level of observance is inaccurately elevated into a form of "fanaticism". Many people outside the Orthodox community mistakenly identify those who wear Chassidic garb (long black coats, earlocks for men, wigs/kerchiefs for women) as "ultra-Orthodox." In fact, the Chassidic groups are no more or less observant than other Orthodox groups who do not dress so distinctively.

I don't think that this is factually correct. Chassidic Orthodox Jews are more stringent in their interpretation of Jewish law than many other Orthodox Jews. They are much more stringent in their rulings in dress, modesty, the role of women, the laws of kashrut, and a host of other issues. The SCJ FAQ is pretty good, but it has some ultra-Orthodox apologetics that are factually incorrect. RK 17:05, Jun 23, 2004 (UTC)

If you'll look above this section in the FAQ you'll see a debate between Danny (the main author of the article) and Ezra Wax, in which Ezra makes the claim that you do, and Danny pretty convincingly (IMHO) refutes it. I don't think the article or author agrees with your claim that Chassidic Orthodox Jews are more stringent than other Orthodox Jews.

BTW, which parts of the SJC FAQ do you think has factually incorrect "ultra-Orthodox" apologetics? Jayjg 17:26, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

As well, the social scientist Marvin Schick has noted

"through the simple device of identifying [some Jews] . . . as ‘ultra-Orthodox,’ . . . [a] pejorative term has become the standard reference term for describing a great many Orthodox Jews . . . . No other ethnic or religious group in this country is identified in language that conveys so negative a message."

We need 'some' way to describe the fact that they are much more stringent than other religious Jews. However, I don't have a problem with using the term haredi, which refers to the same concept. Many ultra-Orthodox Jews refer to themselves in this way. RK 17:05, Jun 23, 2004 (UTC)

RK, Marvin Schick is obviously wrong. Evangelical Christians and Bible literalists are often called "fundamentalists," which is just as pejorative as "ultra-Orthodox." Practicing Muslims are also called fundamentalists or Islamists or similarly pejorative terms. You can certainly successfully argue that "ultra-Orthodox" can be pejorative, but it is also descriptive and is hardly unique to Jewish people in that sense. -ntk

Mandell Granchow, the vice-President of the Religious Zionists of America has stated

Isn't it time to declare "ultra-Orthodox," a pejorative term and discard it from our vocabulary?

Is that good enough? Jayjg 16:44, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Most "ultra-orthodox" Jews prefer to be called charedi (or haredi). If you'd actually read the article, Jayjg, you would have found that haredi is mentioned in the first few lines. Haredi redirects to this page. I agree completely that Ultra-Orthodox is pejorative, but I don't think consensus can be found to move this page to Haredi Judaism. JFW | T@lk 07:52, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

If I'd read the page? That's a rather nasty assumption, and false to boot. read the entire page with interest; it was obviously written by somebody quite knowledgeable in the topic. And I did notice the brief mention of haredi at the top; however, it didn't address, or even acknowledge the pejorative nature of the term "ultra-Orthodox". Jayjg 16:44, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Jayjg, my apologies, I had misunderstood your question. I thought you felt the concept haredi had to be worked in, which was already the case. Indeed, there ought to be some mention of the pejorative use of Ultra-Orthodox. Use of "Ultra" itself is already POV. For many non-religious folk, even Modern Orthodox Judaism may sound Ultra. JFW | T@lk 00:22, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thank you Jfdwolff, I realize now my question could have been interpeted that way. Should I write a couple of sentences on the topic? Jayjg 01:44, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Differences among Orthodox Jews

Here is the section of the SCJ FAQ that I was referring to. It contains the quote you mentioned, but the quote is just plain wrong. Some contributors to the FAQ like to say that all Orthodox Jews are basically the same, and observe Judaism at the same level of observance. Not so; in fact, many Haredi Jews deride other Orthodox Jews as not observant enough, or even as heretical. The codes of Jewish law and responsa followed by many Hasidic Jews are contain many rules viewed as unnecessary stringincies by other Orthodox Jews. Who is right and who is wrong? That is a matter of opinion; but there is no disputing that significant differences exist. RK 17:47, Jun 23, 2004 (UTC)

Section of the SCJ FAQ

Here is a summary of the many ways that Orthodox Jewish groups can differ. Diverse attitudes among Orthodox Jews, compiled by Rabbi Saul J. Berman

I don't think the quote was saying that all Orthodox Jews have similar levels of observance, but rather that dress or membership in a Chassidic group is not the defining characteristic. Jayjg 18:52, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

That is absolute true! RK

Now that I've thought it, I'd like to make two points that may help us phrase things appropriately in this article. (1) Most non-Orthodox Jews do not use the phrase "Haredi Jews" or "Torah Jews"; they only use the phrase "ultra-Orthodox Jews". Many non-Orthodox Jews (religious or secular) don't even know what the word Haredi refers to. The phrase ultra-Orthodox, for better or worse, is more commonly used in the USA. (2) At the same time, many non-Orthodox Jews sometimes do use the term "ultra-Orthodox" in a perjorative way. That isn't to say this is the primary way that they use it (it isn't) but it used in this way. I believe that somehow the article should incorporate both of these points. RK 01:41, Jun 24, 2004 (UTC)

I think it is important to incorporate the idea that the Jews in question do not consider themselves to be "ultra"-Orthodox, nor do they refer to themselves that way. As you point out, they use the terms "Haredi", or "Torah" Jews, or often simply "Orthodox" Jews. Jayjg 01:46, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Should this article be renamed Haredi Judaism?

Should this article be re-named and reworded as Haredi Judaism, and re-directed from Ultra-Orthodox Judaism? As has been stated before, regardless of its common usage in English, the term Ultra-Orthodox is pejorative, and not used by Haredi Jews to describe themselves. I note that the Latter Day Saints article refers to the members as "Latter Day Saints", not "Mormons", as they prefer, even though they are commonly called Mormons in English. Similarly, "Quakers" re-directs to "the Religious Society of Friends", their preferred but not common name. People looking for Moonies are re-directed to the Unification Church. We don't see articles on "Mohamedans" or "Mohametans" or even "Moslems", but rather "Muslims", as they prefer. Isn't it time this article was cleaned up as well? Jayjg 22:08, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

To revise my opinion stated above, I think this sounds perfectly reasonable. JFW | T@lk 09:17, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

FWIW, I've never seen the term ultra-orthodox used as a pejorative anywhere, and it's the prevalent English usage, as haredim is not in the widespread vocabularly. Retitling it could come across as trying to be prescriptive rather than descriptive. Chris Rodgers 09:26, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Chris, as the quotations I gave above demonstrate, the mere use of the word "ultra" is seen as pejorative. The American Heritage dictionary defines it as "Immoderately adhering to a belief, fashion, or course of action; extreme". The related definition it gives as a noun is "An extremist". Websters give excessively as one definition. These are not neutral, but negatively value laden. The people in question do not see their actions as immoderate or excessive, regardless of how you or I or much of the rest of the world view them. And what is "prescriptive" about describing them as they describe themselves? Does that mean that Wikipedia would be taking the "side" that they are not "excessive"? Jayjg 15:25, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Chris, the world "Ultra" is generally understood to mean: "outside the normal limits". It decreases legitimacy by suggesting that adherents of Haredi movements overdo their religiosity. JFW | T@lk 09:31, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

That's one way to understand it, but it isn't the only way and it isn't the way intended in this case. Here it means "to an extreme degree", similarly to "ultra-high frequency", "ultra-productive", etc., which is how the haredim consider their own observance. --Zero 14:33, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Why do you say that that is not the way it is intended "in this case"? I think that is quite often exactly the way it is intended, immoderate, excessive, extremist. A quick web search will inidicate hundreds of sites which attempt to link the "ultra"-Orthodox with both Baruch Goldstein (the doctor who killed 29 Muslims in the Cave of the Patriarchs) and Yigal Amir (Rabin's assassin), when neither man was raised as Haredi, nor a member of any Haredi group. The reason for the linkage is clear; once you're an "extremist", outside normal limits, you're capable of any act. Jayjg 15:25, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

None of that is relevant to the question. --Zero 09:46, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

You'll have to do better than that, Zero. Why do you think it isn't relevant? Why do you think your personal view of what is meant by "ultra" is correct? Jayjg 17:11, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It is completely irrelevant whom the ultra-orthodox are linked to, correctly or incorrectly. The issue here is only over the name "ultra-orthodox". Also it is not just my opinion that "ultra" is intended to mean "to an extreme degree" or "perfectly"; it is the opinion of many people (including haredim) who I have known over the years, and countless articles I have read. Actually I suspect the idea that "ultra" is offensive is a modern American invention. --Zero 09:29, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Who they are linked to is relevant to how the term is used and/or understood. As for "modern American inventions", the term "ultra-Orthodox" is itself a modern American invention, and the people who object to it are haredim. Jayjg 17:14, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

By "modern" I meant "last decade". Can you find a claim before then that "ultra" is perjorative? As for the phrase itself, it is older and used to be used for any (not just Jewish) absolute adherence to a religious position. I found such a usage in 1900 to a pagan king, in 1925 to a Wahabite, 1952 to a Hindu, and for an Israeli Jewish group (Agudat Israel is called "ultra-orthodox of the religious parties", clearly meaning "the most orthodox") in 1953. By the mid 1950s there are many references to "ultra-orthodox Jews" in the academic literature. Probably more early references would appear in a newspaper search but I'm not currently in a position to make one. --Zero 15:03, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The reason that objections to the term are relatively recent is that term came only came into wide currency a couple of decades ago, and the people to whom it was pejoratively applied were fairly disconnected from the society and the outlets which were negatively labelling them in this way, so it took some time for them to formulate a response. As for Aguda, the quote could mean what you surmise, or it could mean that it is the party representing ultra-Orthodox Jews. Not that the age of the objections is particularly relevant; the academic and popular literature was full of the term "Negro", the "Colored" in the mid 20th century, when it was not seen as pejorative, but the term certainly wouldn't be used today. Finally, the real issue remains unaddressed; Wikipedia seems to use a group's preferred term for itself regardless of common usage, except (apparently) in the case of Haredim. The fact that members of the group (and others) see the term as pejorative, and that the term "ultra" has intrinsically pejorative meanings, only deepens the issue. Jayjg 17:02, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Having seen an edit today where "Mormon" was changed to "LDS", I was reminded of this unfinished business. A few final words on the subject. The term Haredi is much older than "ultra-Orthodox", having been used by the Haredi to described themselves as early as 1900, and used officially in the names of communal groups by 1920. As for "ultra" being pejorative, a quick google finds it used pejoratively in this context:

I am a Jewish woman, and one who could be called by that favorite ever-so-subtle pejorative used by much of the media – "ultra-Orthodox". http://www.jewishmediaresources.com/article/467

"Ultra-Orthodox" is a pejorative label applied to more conservative elements in Orthodoxy; it is not a label those Jews use themselves. If they were to use a label, it would likely be "Charedi" or "Chassidic" or "Yeshivish". http://www.joi.org/cgi-bin/bigtalker/discussion.cgi?forum=6&discussion=38

In my community there are many self-help organizations supported and staffed exclusively by Orthodox volunteers - primarily the sort of commonly described by the fashionable pejorative - "ultra-Orthodox." http://www.clal.org/e68.html

In other contexts:

My impression is that the so-called "ultra-Darwinians" (to use Gould and Eldredge's pejorative expression http://www.asa3.org/archive/evolution/200003/0091.html

The other side of the 'High Table' are quickly labelled with the pejorative 'Ultra-Darwinist', although how anyone can be 'beyond Darwin' remains elusive. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0471303011/104-5082128-7299966?v=glance

But in the practice of journalism, one should know better than to apply a pejorative label, the label of extremism ("ultra-"), to members of one political faction but never to its opposite number. http://lists.bostonradio.org/pipermail/boston-radio-interest/2003-October/000027.html

And even on Wikipedia:

Ultra-nationalists are extreme nationalists or patriots. The term has a clearly pejorative meaning, and is particularly used for those ardently opposed to international cooperation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-nationalist

Having heard no other objections, it would seem to make sense to move this article to more neutral terminology, following the Wikipedia standard. Any other discussion on the subject before getting started? Jayjg 05:07, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

That's a good illustration of how any point of view can be "proven" by using the right Google search terms. Since there are so many opinions out there, restricting yourself to the one you like by including words like "pejorative" in your search is guaranteed to work. If you more objectively search just for "ultra-Orthodox" and work your way down the list, you will find only one suggestion of pejorativeness (which is more like "it's a good term but people misuse it") in the first two pages except for one copied from Wikipedia. You will also find usages by religious Jewish organizations who obviously see nothing wrong with it. No matter, I actually have no problem with "haredi". --Zero 04:03, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It seems the debate has been tentatively resolved. As per Jayjg's request on my talk page, I'm moving this page to Haredi Judaism. Most Ultra-Orthodox Jews, when asked, would describe themselves as Torah Jews or Haredim. This is lehavdel analogous to the LDS, whose in-house terminology is followed on Wikipedia (instead of calling them Mormons). In case of objections, please discuss below before making unilateral moves. JFW | T@lk 22:25, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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Whitewash

I think this is a bit of a whitewash:

In recent years, there is a process of reconciliation and merging of Haredi Jews with the Israeli society. While not compromising on religious issues and their strict code of live, they become more open to the secular Israeli culture. Haredi Jews such as satirican Kobi Arieli, publicist Sehara Blau and politician Israel Eichler write regulary to leading Israeli newspapers. Another important factor in the reconciliation process is the activity of ZAKA - a volunteery rescue organization which rescue human remains from suicide bombings scene to bring them into proper burial.

It does not seem to me that there is "reconciliation and merging" except in the fringes. The overall situation is that indicated by the rise of Shinui and similar groups. The secular public are just as afraid of "Haredi domination" as ever, and the Haredim are no more compromising than before on things that matter to them. Of course there are tons of different opinions on this, but the opinion in the article is just one and should not be presented as more than that. --Zero 04:03, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

A very typical example is described in this article. --Zero 02:27, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Changes in Israeli Haredi society

I think that something about these developments should be introduced into the article. Many Haredim believe that if you want to be a good Jew, then you need t spend all of your time in Torah study. But in the real world this is not a good choice for all people; not all people have the desire or constitution for non-stop lifelong Torah study. So what to do with these people? Have them leave Orthodox Judaism? Or perhaps this alternative:

• "The holy revolution", The Jerusalem Post, By Anshel Pfeffer and Neta Sela

The Holy Revolution, article in Jerusalem Post

...Welcome to Yeshivat Sha'arei Yosher in northern Jerusalem, a prototype of a new haredi yeshiva for young men which has become more prevalent during the last few years. These yeshivot are not meant to compete with the established traditional ones such as Mir, Hevron, and Ponevezh, each with thousands of students, but to cater to young men known as noshrim (dropouts) who can't handle the rigors of yeshiva life and are on the verge of leaving the haredi world. Not long ago the rabbis weren't even admitting that such a problem exists. Now they understand that they have little choice.

...The rabbis at the new yeshivot realize that it's unrealistic to expect their students to spend all their time learning, so they are satisfied if they study a couple of hours a day, just as long as a day does not go by without Torah. The rabbis understand that sometimes they must find material incentives to keep their charges interested in the Talmud.

It's hard to measure the size of the dropout yeshiva phenomenon. Naturally, they are not advertising themselves as such so as not to stigmatize their students and they are very cagey about their student numbers. But at least a dozen yeshivot of this kind have sprung up lately. In the Givat Shaul-Har Nof area in northern Jerusalem alone, there are at least three.

...The major changes in the way haredim live their lives are not only taking place among teenage yeshiva students...Within the 20-35 age group, the main shift is away from the kollelim - the yeshivot for married men who get scholarships - and into the workplace...All of a sudden the haredi ideal is not to be an avrech (a married man who studies Torah all day) and a learned rabbi, but to be a successful businessman who learns a couple of hours a day.

...Prof. David Assaf, head of the history department at Tel Aviv University and an expert on the history of hassidic sects: …"The hard-core classic haredim who don't want anything to do with the modern world are still the majority, but a growing number among the younger generation are more open; they want to learn and are looking for jobs outside the narrow haredi world. But this doesn't make them leave the haredi worlds and the two groups live together harmoniously."

My goodness, the fact that someone can't remain in yeshiva doesn't make him a heretic! These programs and projects have been extant for a long time, initially for young men with mental disabilities. However, even the "reactionary leadership" that Prof. Assaf is ranting at has approved of programs that combine vocational training and yeshiva studies, and this article is at least 3 years too late. You can make a brief mention of the phenomenon, and provide a footnote (like this[1]) to the news article, but please keep it brief, and without direct quotes from prof. Assaf. JFW | T@lk 14:38, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I too would discourage attempts to make too much of this minor phenomenon; it should be given the attention it warrants, which is not very much yet. Jayjg 15:06, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)