Talk:Asheville, North Carolina

Asheville Mall

Keep the Asheville Mall article as it is, don't merge it with Asheville, NC. There's no point to that, if someone needs information about Asheville Mall. A lot of the other malls in NC have articles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cantnot (talk • contribs) ..

On May 5, 2005, Asheville Mall was nominated for deletion. The result was merge/redirect. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Asheville Mall. --Ezeu 09:51, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

malls and mcdonalds ruin culture and make for an ugly america coast to coast.

Joshua Warren

I think the section on Joshua Warren's book is overstating the book's influence. Anyone else? The Asheville article mentions Thomas Wolfe (as it should), but it doesn't mention Look Homeward, Angel. Fair enough. But then it mentions Joshua Warren and Warren's book. Wolfe's book is a classic of American literature. Haunted Asheville isn't nearly so famous. Haunted Asheville isn't nearly the tourist draw that the article suggests.

Does anyone else want to air an opinion on this? Mr Frosty 16:53, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Music

I think the music section has gotten out of hand. Too many bands are mentioned. The article states that the bands are "notable", but no evidence is proffered to support that claim. I think it just looks like promotion. I am in support of Asheville's music scene, but I don't think Wikipedia should be used as a promotional tool for it. Would anyone else like to weigh in on this? Mr Frosty 16:52, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Even if it can be seen as promotion they are still notable local bands, I think its fine. There are only a few artists there that I havent heard of. Silverweed 13:26, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Even if they're notable, most larger cities (i.e., Houston, TX) don't go to such lengths regarding local artists. Besides, the section is clearly biased.

The section could at least use some line breaks. Zeno Izen 02:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, there's your line breaks. Next edits by me will remove all non-notable local bands/acts. Wikipedia:Notability (music) Unless someone else beats me to it. (hint) Zeno Izen 20:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. The section should be shortened, and lines like "of course it would all be meaningless without a place to perform" should be removed. The description of the concerts themselves also seems a little out of place for an encyclopedia - sounds more like a concert review.--AaronM 16:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. There is no need for that lengthy list of bands. It looks rather foolish. Arx Fortis 23:20, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Pruning the "bands" list

Okay, we've got a consensus that the "performers and bands" list needs to be edited. I think that the next step is to get a consensus on what the editing criteria should be. * Zeno Izen 01:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Does each artist have an entry (with a discography, and a biography) at www.allmusic.com ? I notice that Chuck Brodsky does. Chrstine Kane does. Klarcnova does not. Allmusic is an authoritative resource. Why not use that? Mr Frosty 19:43, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I concur. If the band/performer is not already known outside of Asheville, then it would appear as more of an advertisement than a reference. I've noticed a lot of "blue links" link to something completely unrelated to a band. These bands don't have a wikipedia article. I think the criteria should be that the band have at least one of the following:

• a discography/biography at www.allmusic.com
• an existing wikipedia article (not just an on-the-fly stub)

Is there any other criteria to consider? Arx Fortis 20:26, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I think your criteria are good for pruning purposes. From there we could use the bullet-pointed lists on the Wikipedia:Notability (music) page to attend to new additions. In other words, someone should go ahead and edit the current list based on your criteria. Then, when new entries are inevitably added, they should be included/removed based on the notability page.

I think the pruning should be done asap. However, I won't do it myself until some time has passed, just to allow for further discussion. Zeno Izen 17:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I did it at almost the exact time you were typing. We can leave it as-is. While I don't think a complete reversal is in order, individual bands/performers could be added back if the requisite criteria are met. Arx Fortis 17:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

allmusic is far from authoritative, being riddled with misinformation and narrow view of a proper database of what is really happening musically. the "list" format doesnt look proper with the "film" section that simply seperates them by comma. also, the criteria for bands i have added are in accordance with wiki and have been deleted. is radio rotation, national/worldwide publication/reviews, mentioned elsewhere in wiki, and being on a label not enough? i have had to add a notable band currently in asheville 4 times now as someone simply deletes it without checking to see that they are pushing a new national genre having toured the US multiple times as well as several releases. it seems there is conflict as to what is acceptable between music and film with very small [even unreleased] films being mentioned while other bands that dont meet the criteria are kept and others deleted. i think you are far from any consensus on this matter. some of the bands that are left dont meet the criteria as well as some being deleted. seems a bit biased.

as long as the bands are active in asheville, i think they deserve mention just as the film section allows. maybe they dont need their own page as some have, but with the current interactions of the internet and bands promotional abilities, i think it would be a nice way to introduce the world at large to search bands local to asheville and its unique music scene at least the name to further search them out on the web.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alphajerk (talk • contribs) 2 August 2006 (UTC).

See the continuation of this thread further down this page... -Zeno Izen 20:21, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

More re: pruning 'bands'

Righty, nice work Arx... In the interest of further solidifying the list, I looked up all the remaining 'bands' at allmusic.com. Here are my notes. 'one&same?' means I found the band at allmusic, but couldn't find anything to verify that the band I found was the one referred to by the Asheville article. 'check' means I found the band and a reference to either Asheville or North Carolina in that band's entry, suggesting that the band is the one referred to in the Asheville article.

I think the rest of my notes are self-explanatory. Let me know if they aren't.

• Chuck Brodsky
  • check North Carolina ref. in bio
• Mad Tea Party
  • this band at allmusic.com is one&same?
• Dig Shovel Dig
  • not found at allmusic.com Other notability?
• David LaMotte
  • minimal info at allmusic.com one&same?
• Christine Kane
  • check (with specific ref. to Asheville in allmusic.com bio)
• Mother Vinegar
  • not found
• Paperboy
  • Unclear. Four variations on name. No detailed bios on any of the four.
• GFE
  • check North Carolina ref. in review
• Reigning Sound
  • one&same?
• Scrappy Hamilton
  • one&same?
• SeepeopleS
  • check Asheville ref. in bio
• Allison King
  • one&same? (plus I'm wondering if 4 background vox credits really amounts to notability)
• Red Light Trio
  • one&same?

- Zeno Izen 18:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

GBLT community

Asheville has quite a large GBLT community, anyone think to add such statistics and points of interest to the article? Oni-dracula 22:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

That would probbly be a fine addition to the article. Maybe, in the 'Demographics' section. Zeno Izen 16:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Schools

This sentance doesn't seem to provide any information unique or especially interesting to Asheville: "There are many opportunities as in other schools including sports (student-athletes must be making at least a C in all subjects), AIG (Academically/Intellectually Gifted), National History Day, Math Counts, Battle of the Books, Odyssey of the Mind, and Science Olympiad."

How is this different than any other city? Are these activities not available elsewhere? I think this sentance should be removed. Thoughts? Arx Fortis 17:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed and deletion made. - Zeno Izen 18:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Celebrities

The information about famous people with ties to Asheville seems a bit abrupt. I think that this portion of the article needs to be edited to make a distinct paragraph, perhaps adding a topic sentence and transitions to pull it together and make it flow with the rest of the article.

Noted. The article as a whole needs work, however. So, it may be some time before that particular portion receives attention. (Unless of course you want to jump in there and handle it yourself. (Clumsy hint.)) - Zeno Izen 15:53, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Editing music section. Request for sources

Now that the list of musicians has been knocked down to a less cumbersome size, I suppose I'll try to make the main text of the section more encyclopedic. If anyone knows any good Asheville + Music sources on the web, please please PLEASE point me toward them. I don't have any Asheville books handy. My first Google search proved unhelpful. Clearly I'm going to need some input. - Zeno Izen 15:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Made major edits. Don't have time to do more right now. - Zeno Izen 17:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Looking good, Z. I made a few edits the other night. The list doesn't seem to be as much of an eyesore. Arx Fortis 02:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I reverted (by copypaste) the text that was rewritten earlier. While not perfect, the previous text bore a reference, and the words used in that paragraph were all based on information found in that reference. Since the change to the unsourced text was done anonymously and without discussion, I can only assume that it was made by a random passerby.

Also, the multiple edits made it difficult for me to sort out exactly which words had been changed and how. So I just scooped up the original text and dropped it back in.

Thanks for barnstar Arx. And yeah the list looks a lot better. It will probably need to be maintained, though. -Zeno Izen 07:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Please review (tentative additions to history section)

Please take a look at the following and give me some input. This is working toward a cited history of Asheville.

• Before the arrival of Europeans, the land lay within the boundaries of Cherokee country http://cherokeehistory.com/original.gif. In 1540, Spanish explorer Hernando DeSoto came to the area, bringing the first European visitors http://www.obcgs.com/ashv_hist.htm in addition to European diseases which seriously depleted the native population http://www.tolatsga.org/Cherokee1.html . As the Cherokee were eventually dominated by European settlers, the area was used as an open hunting ground until the middle of the 19th century. http://www.asheville.be/history/Asheville_History_Pre_1800.html

• The history of Asheville, as a town, begins in 1784. In that year Colonel Samuel Davidson and his family settled in the Swannanoa Valley, redeeming a soldier's land grant from the state of North Carolina. Soon after building a log cabin at the bank of Christian Creek, Davidson was lured into the woods by a band of Cherokee hunters and killed. Davidson's wife, child and female slave fled on foot to Davidson's Fort (named after Davidson's father General John Davidson) 16 miles away.

• In response to the killing, Davidson's twin brother Major William Davidson and brother-in-law Colonel Daniel Smith formed an expedition to retrieve Samuel Davidson's body and avenge his murder. Months after the expedition, Major Davidson and other members of the his extended family returned to the area and settled at the mouth of Bee Tree Creek. http://www.wnchistory.org/museum/droversroad.htm

-Zeno Izen 06:34, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

more:

• Over the course of years, more settlers came to the area. The United States Census of 1790 counted 1,000 residents of the area, excluding the Cherokee. The county of Buncombe was officially formed in 1792. The county seat, named “Morristown” in 1793, was established on a plateau where two old Indian trails crossed. In 1797 Morristown was incorporated and renamed “Asheville” after North Carolina Governor Samuel Ashe. http://www.wnchistory.org/museum/droversroad.htm

-Zeno Izen 14:43, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

the history seems short and only limited to the origins, not necessarily the history. where is grove, originally planning on building grove park in swannanoa (became grovemont) to vanderbilt and his massive estate and "town" of (vander)biltmore? or is this just a bunch of information that needs to be written? or the "levelling" of the city from battery park to mccormick field?

another "oddity" of asheville is its choice to not default on debt from the depression saving many city landmarks that in other cities were destroyed in urban renewals. or the st lawrence basicilica built the largest unsupported tile dome in the US in a manner no one can figure out by Rafael Guastavino.

is this information worth writing to be added? i would hate to waste my time writing it only to have it pulled down.

Alphajerk 04:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

There's plenty more that needs to be added to the history section. The small amount that I put together took me most of a day. I started from the beginning, and would have gone to the end, but that little bit kind of burned me out.

All of the things that you've mentioned here seeme very interesting. I'd like to see them included. The hard part is getting the sources. But if you have some books or know some websites and don't mind taking a little time to figure out the citation templates, the rest is cake. Or at least that's how it was for me.

As far as having anything pulled down, I can only speak for myself. I just want to see the article improve. I think if your work is sourced, discussed somewhat and makes for a better article, it ought to stay. -Zeno Izen 09:27, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Editing 'bands' section

Alphajerk, et al, ... You may be right! However, all of these issues have been discussed and a concensus has been reached. It is important to familiarize yourself with the manners of editing Wikipedia and the histories of any pages that you would like to make major edits to. Please read this discussion page (as you may have already) and look at these items:

• Wikipedia:Notability (music)
• Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages
• Wikipedia:Verifiability

allmusic.com is not the end-all be-all verification for entries on the list of bands here, it's just a first-line source. Speaking only for myself, if there's a reasonable source supporting the notability of a band or performer, I'll leave it alone. But it's very important to discuss at least, or better yet cite (), before you make changes, otherwise other editors will make additional changes that you may not like. (Actually, editors will make changes you don't like regardless of your best efforts. But if you've got Wikipedia policies and guideliness on your side, in addition to editor concensus, your own edits will eventually prevail.)

Good luck -Zeno Izen 21:06, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

allmusic is basically a database for whomever send in material to be put in... and even then they tend to get the information wrong in a lot of crediting cases (and sometimes bios). basically my point is, the title for the section IS "local bands" which denotes bands from the asheville area, and i dont think the ones that ARE listed are a good representation of the area (actually fairly poor), when the list was long, it was a much better representation despite complaints of it being too long. it wasnt self-promotional even with its length but the list made it look long. i think the list is a poor idea regardless of the consensus and doesnt tie in well with the film section and the film section isnt held to the same accountability as the music section.

i also happen to think right now wiki is quite shortsighted in their placement of music in society. local scenes are what used to make areas thrive with originality, although it seems homoginization is spreading even into places such as this. now i dont think pages should be made as advertisements but if kept to biographical forms like a lot of pages of music i have seen here it is so worth the effort of people to propogate the information. music is called the bastard child of the entertainment industry and it seems its illegitimacy is continuing on at wiki. thats fairly sad because the way this place actually works would make a great data base of bands, music and the formations that have occured in society.

i added back the band i was referring to after it was reverted, please leave them in place. allmusic takes submissions from ANYONE (and you can be sure they are getting a submission now, despite the band adhering to the already stated regulations of notability... bands like stephanies ID has NEVER played outside asheville as far as i know, although a nice band... but hardly adheres to the rules set forth yet remains].

im not trying to really argue but only debate my side and hope for a better representation of what ashevilles music scene really has to offer since it was included as a sub for the city here and is usually a pretty unique thing to here as well.... just because a consensus was reasched previously doesnt mean it is correct. i did notice the deletion of quite a few others that were most notable from this area, more than any currently on the list. it looks like the editing is done by people who might not be as aware of the music scene here. maybe you should trust peoples opinion who are more involved in it.

Alphajerk 04:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

You're correct, just because a concensus was reached, doesn't mean it is correct. Sometimes concensus is the best we can do, though. More importantly, just because a concensus was reached, doesn't mean that the discussion is closed, either.

You bring up a lot of complicated issues and questions. I don't have all the answers. I'm going to try to address a few points here, though.

I agree with a few things that you say (that the 'bands' list is not representative of Asheville, that the standards are not the same for the bands list and the films list). I'm not sure that I like the paragraph format for listing anything at all. But the list format isn't maybe not all that appropriate either.

Personally, all I really care about is that the section does not become a depository of shout-outs from various fly-by-night musical outfits. Bands come and go. And in this day and age, it's possible for a single individual to produce lots of music under multiple names. A local-music subsection could go on for pages, really, for any town the size of Asheville.

(I'm writing all this off the cuff. Let me try to wind things up for now...)

I'll concede your point regarding allmusic.com. I don't know anything about the website. It was offered as a tool for making decisions. Seemed okay to me. With that said, I'll leave your additions to the list. I can't control what anyone else does. Politely, though, I'd like to ask that you offer some alternatives for deciding the 'notability' of any band added to this article.

Also, I think the issue needs more discussion. Plus also, someone ought to look at how other articles about similar-sized American towns deal with this. -Zeno Izen 09:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC)