Talk:Tibet

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I distinctly remember reading somewhere that a part of the north-east of Tibet had been split off into other P.R.China provinces, so it's probably true. Btw, could someone shrink that map image? It takes forever to load :)

Yeah. TAR is mere the former domain of the Dalai Lama, half of whole Tibet. See [1]. -- Nanshu 12:27 Mar 18, 2003 (UTC)

Multingual translations

The various names, spellings, and transliterations of "Tibet" need to be tidied up a bit. It looks like there's at least one typo there too. I've split the names from the first paragraph because it was getting too hard to read. Hippietrail 12:08, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Yes, that multingual list is a bit unreadable, but it looks worse to have two bolded titles, bolded titles. I have made it into a list (~ Yanbian). Fix it if there's any mistakes. --Menchi (Talk)â 12:54, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The map on the page seems not to have the government-in-exile's borders. --Jia ng

Methinks the borders of the government-in-exile are pre-1950 Tibet's borders. At least, their claimed borders. (They don't actually claim any territory in Dharamsala) -- Xiaopo 18:42, Jan 22, 2004 (PDT)

Tibet v. TAR

This should be merged with Tibetan Autonomous Region. The claim that exiled populations can be called part of Tibet is bogus. We'll recognize this claim, but there's no need to create 2 separate articles on the same land. (The part of "Tibet" not in the autonomous region can be mentioned too. It's too negligible to deserve a separate article.) --Jia ng 23:55, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Discussion of a larger region should belong in Tibetan Plateau. --Jia ng

No. Many scholars use Tibet in Tibetans' sense. --Nanshu 02:40, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

What is the "Tibetans" sense? The listing of the regions refer to the entire Plateau. All other prominent encyclopedias and common usage refers to the the AR. --Jia ng 02:44, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

"Tibet" and "Tibetan Plateau" aren't synonymous. --Jia ng

Of course they are, what should it be then? Historic Tibet is on the "Tibetan Plateau" like you can see on old maps! The "TAR" is only the southern part of the plateau, because the northern and western parts have been entirely encorporated into "PRC". No part of China or Mongolia or East Turkestan were on the plateau. Umrao

When scholars (espacially historians) refer use "Tibet", it does not refer to the TAR but Tibet as the Tibetans refer to. I wonder why you are sensitive about the PRC-ROC issue but not about the Tibet-TAR one. --Nanshu 03:07, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Britannica, Encarta, Columbia, and the World Book must all not be written by historians then. WB states, "The Tibet Autonomous Region of China has an area of 471,662 square miles (1,221,600 square kilometers). Prior to the Chinese take-over, Tibet covered about 965,000 square miles (2,500,000 square kilometers). Much of this area now falls in neighboring provinces."

We only need to acknowledge the historical region of Tibet; we don't need an entirely separate article. There's no point in having history, geography, and culture sections in both articles. They are the same thing for both. All we have to do is to state:

Historically, Tibet consisted of the provinces of Amdo, Kham, and U-Tsang. Amdo is now composes the provinces of Qinghai, Gansu & Sichuan. Kham has been largely incorporated into the provinces of Sichuan, Yunnan and Qinghai. The Tibet Autonomous Region occupies U-Tsang and Western Kham.

When the media refers to Tibet, it refers only to the AR. When we talk about transport in Tibet or economy of Tibet, we also refer to the AR. The entire region is only referred to for historical purposes. We don't say we visited Tibet when we visited Sichuan. People would get confused.

If we merge, we don't have to ignore the greater region entirely. The geography article (copied from the 1911 EB) discusses the entire region. Our summary of the various sections on this page can talk about both. --Jia ng 05:47, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I agree that Tibet should be merged into Tibet Autonomous Region. Hawaii doesn't have an article separate from Hawaii, the state, but the Hawaii article obviously refers to the modern US state as its main subject and talks about Hawaii, the former kingdom. --Xiaopo's Talk 07:45, Jan 18, 2004 (UTC)

What I called "historians" are those who are also knowledgeable about Tibet before the last stage of the Qing Dynasty. It's very regretful that Westerners are overinfluenced by the image of "China" at that time.

Politically, there are some groups who oppose to call the TAR just "Tibet". See http://www.tibet.com/glance.html

"Tibetan Automonous Region" is the formal (English) name for that entity and some use "Tibet" as the short form of TAR. But "Tibet" is Tibet; there is no longer or shorter name. "Tibetan Plateau" is absurd because "Tibet" is not only a geographical term but also a political, historical, cultural one. Therefore, it is the best solution to put the content of Tibet on "Tibet" and the information about the TAR on "Tibetan Automonous Region". --Nanshu 00:34, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It's pointless to have two culture sections, two history sections, two geography sections, etc. when they basically say the same thing. I am not asking that the AR article override this one. The article will start of "Tibet in the region in central Asia consisting of..." Only after the first sentence will we mention the AR. We will acknowledge the government-in-exile's view on Tibet, but that doesn't require an entirely new article. The AR can be a compontent of this article. --Jia ng 01:43, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The only reason that two pages overlap is the stubness of the article Tibet. The history section of Tibet will describe the overall history of Tibet while that of the TAR will treat the Chinese domination (Yah, we have to fix the awful article History of Tibet). Geography. The Tibetan geographical conception is different from Chinese's. These are sufficient reasons to separate Tibet from the TAR. The merging implies: "We acknowledge the government-in-exile's view but we are in side of the PRC." That's not a NPOV. --Nanshu 18:59, 24 Jan 2004 (PST)

Not really - this article will not start out with a definition of the autonomous region and the description of the history, land, etc. will not be limited to the autonomous region. It's all up to where we put the phrases. This is not internet-encyclopedia.org. For controversial topics, we are to put conflicting positive and negative on the same page; we don't sweep them into separate pages. I don't see why we cant have two separate paragraphs on the same page in the same section acknowledging the different viewpoints. To have this article talk about all of former Tibet would be to endorese the government-in-exile's position. --Jia ng 19:08, 24 Jan 2004 (PST)

No. The Tibetan's view does not correspond one-to-one with the Chinese's. Each section will have two blocks? It will be really hard to see. The merging will throw this article into chaos. The status quo (with notes on top) is nicer than that. --Nanshu 19:31, 24 Jan 2004 (PST)

So if it does not correspond one-to-one it is in agreement? Not necessarily two blocks...there are many ways to align the prose. We can also interweave. We should treat this article like we treat any other controversial topic - acknowledge both positions. I don't see what's wrong. --Jia ng 03:38, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)

There is a fundamental difference between Tibet and other controversial topics. Every other controversy is about different views toward the same thing. But for Tibet, the same term refers to different things. It's similar to disambiguation. --Nanshu 02:07, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Nanshu, please state what is your issue with the current text. The Tibet view has been addressed, has it not? The text before my merge only addressed the Tibetan view and not the Chinese view. And what is wrong with my history section, my geography section? Why did you rever that too?--Jia ng 02:23, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I've already expressed my opinion. I don't know what to do with the "spaghetti" article. Should I mix "China", "PRC" and "ROC"? And sorry for the history and geographic sections. It was careless of me not to check the content. --Nanshu 02:34, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It wouldn't be ridiculous to have the PRC article at "China" and the ROC article at "Taiwan" due to common usage. Most of the content at China is historical in nature and would be better suited for an article on Imperial China. "Tibet" almost always refers to the TAR. Click on "what links here".

By making this article on the greater region, wikipedia endorses the Tibetan government in exile's position. The flag put on this page is banned in the mainland and used be pro-tibetan protestors. This is POV. By putting them together, we endorse neither position. Are we going to put in the Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries template here too?

As I said before, there's no point in having 2 geography, 2 economy, 2 demographics, etc. sections on the same thing. What is especially ridiculous is having 2 culture sections - what's the difference? If we have a TAR article, it should be on the administration, just like there's a Taiwan Province article apart from Taiwan (though I wouldn't oppose merging the two). If you and I can't agree on this, then this should be put to a vote. --Jia ng 04:44, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

If you think describing the greater region on Tibet is POV, then I don't mind renaming this article and turning Tibet into a disambig. page. (And I spare no time to disambiguate "Tibet" as you've done with "China".) Still I oppose merging the two articles. --Nanshu 03:01, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Turning this into a disambiguation is unnacceptable, given how commonly the term "Tibet" is used and how many links direct here. As I said before, "Tibetan Autonomous Region" can remain an article on the administrative division, but it may not have the same sections this article had.

"China" is not a disambiguation page. If you read its talk page, you will see that making it one was shot down. You will also see that I took absolutely no part in arranging the two articles as they are now.

What do you want this article to be renamed? Getting a map of greater Tibet would also help. You should be complaining about the map posted on this page. --Jia ng 03:48, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

no answer? I'll revert. --Jia ng

You don't allow me to leave Wikipedia for a couple of days...

I don't like to repeat discussion. Are you seeking common ground?

So do you want to put the TAR article on "Tibet" by any means? As I said, the greater region has no name other than just "Tibet" while the TAR can be put on "Tibetan Autonomous Region." But I proposed the compromise of moving the GT article to something like "Tibet (greater region)." What's wrong with me? --Nanshu 02:21, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

No, I don't. You either respond or get reverted.

You have not addressed my concerns - moving the page won't solve the problem. I said it's pointless to duplicate culture sections. What do you say? If we don't duplicate sections, what will an article on the region consist of that the AR does not? If there is something substantial, how about moving the AR here and linking the region on top, like is done for Mongolia. --Jia ng 04:01, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

So, should I repeat my argument? The only reason that two pages overlap is the stubness of the article Tibet. Culture of Tibet would be put at "Tibet" because Tibet is cultural, political, and geographical term and the TAR is purely a political division. If there is a cultural thing that is unique to the TAR, then it should be put at the "Tibetan Autonomous Region." Any problem with that?

Putting the TAR article here is non-NPOV so that I can never approve it.

--Nanshu 02:51, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I said I would not object to having an article on the TAR focusing solely on the administrative division like how one exists at Taiwan Province. But currently, it is not an article on the administration; it has stuff that belongs here. Please don't blanket revert my edits. What's wrong with my flag caption? Description that the map only points out the TAR? That the TAR comprises less than half of historic Tibet? If you can't accept the temporary compromise, then I will revert TAR too. --Jia ng 03:00, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Then put the TAR article on "Tibetan Autonomous Region" and edit it as you want! --Nanshu 03:26, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Did Tibetan history stop in 1906? Why do you want to siphon off large portions of the text? What's wrong with my introductory paragraph explaining the dispute in meaning? What's wrong with the marketplace image? Since when have we had separate sections on "Transport"? --Jia ng 03:20, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've reverted TAR too since you don't want to compromise and don't want to answer my claims above that the old version is inferior and that my text was legitimate, whether TAR would be kept or not. --Jia ng

I moved your content as far as I noticed. You can move it by yourself. --Nanshu 03:38, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Did Tibetan history stop in 1906? You never answered. My first paragraph was not moved. --Jia ng

It was moved to the TAR article. --Nanshu 03:43, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

No it wasn't. Where does it say "Historically, Tibet consisted of the provinces of Amdo, Kham, and U-Tsang. Amdo is now composes the provinces of Qinghai, Gansu, and Sichuan. Kham has been largely incorporated into the provinces of Sichuan, Yunnan and Qinghai. The Tibet Autonomous Region, comprising less than half of historic Tibet, occupies U-Tsang and Western Kham."? It wouldn't belong there anyways. You never answered my first question. --Jia ng 03:55, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It was the geography section ot "Tibet" (Menchi's original version). And what's your "first question"? If it is about history after 1906, again, it was moved to the TAR article. --Nanshu 04:02, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Okay, but it's better to state the controversy up front, than to endorse a certain position. Why should the history after 1906 be moved to TAR? Is it not relevant here? TAR was not established until 1965. This fact was apparently deleted.

I listed this page at Requests for comment. I hope some other parties will discuss. --Jia ng 05:44, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't this article cover the area historically known as Tibet, and the TAR article cover what today forms the TAR? As such, shouldn't there be room for simultaneous articles in areas such as history? In any case, if the TAR wasn't created until 1965, shouldn't History of Tibet cover that much? Ambivalenthysteria 07:03, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The TAR is part of Tibet and therefore, history of the TAR after its creation would be relevant here. Repeating the same info here would be redundant. It's innappropriate to stop Tibetan history at 1965 (or in Nanshu's version, 1906). --Jia ng 21:45, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Xizang & Tibet?

Xizang=Tibet in Chinese. I don't see why it should be redirected to the AR. Does another name exist for the greater region? I haven't heard of one. --Jia ng 04:07, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

As it is Wargi Dzang in Manchu, Xizang literally means Western Tsang (western part of Tsang or Tsang [which is located] to the west [of China]). On the other hand, Tubet refers to Tibet in Manchu and was transcribed as 土伯特 in Chinese. Xizang is an inherently inappropriate term for Tibet. Xizang can refer to the TAR or Tibet but I think Xizang usually refers to the TAR in Chinese context. It is similar to "China." --Nanshu 02:51, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

土伯特 is almost never used in Chinese so when Chinese refer to Tibet (TAR or not) they use "Xizang". China has its own article, so that parellel doesn't work. It's not up to us to criticise the Chinese people for wanting to call a certain place by an "inherently inappropriate term". We simply relect the truth. --Jia ng

Yah, it's an historical term (that's why I used "was"). And I mean China can refers to "China proper" or the greater region but there is no single words to distinguish them. --Nanshu 03:26, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The inherently inappropriate term can refer to both, but more often to the TAR. Will I turn "Xizang" into a disambig. page? --Nanshu 03:53, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"Tibet" includes the TAR. The fact that it commonly refers to TAR is also because "Tibet" in English also refers to the TAR. Under the same logic, this page should redirect to TAR. That would be ridiculous. --Jia ng 05:46, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Response to RFC

Tibet and TAR definitely should _not_ be merged. Tibet has a history separate from its status as the TAR. In English, Tibet refers to a general place, _not_ the TAR. Whenever the information coincides for the two, it can go on the Tibet page.

-- Walt Pohl 21:19, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Show me an instance where we refer to part of Tibet outside the TAR as "Tibet." When we visit the part of Tibet in Sichuan we say we went to Sichuan, not Tibet. The acronym "TAR" is sparingly used and the news media uses simply "Tibet."

Yes, Tibet has a history separate from its status as the TAR. So? TAR is being merged here, not the other way around. --Jia ng 21:45, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Would you then also agree we should merge the Taiwan and Republic of China articles?

Here's a thought experiment. Suppose tomorrow the government of China decided that Lhasa was not part of the TAR. Would English speakers cease to describe Lhasa as part of Tibet? No. Now imagine that tomorrow the US decided that Philadelphia was no longer part of Pennsylvania. Would we stop describing Philadelphia as part of Pennsylvania? Probably. -- Walt Pohl 22:13, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I would agree to merge Taiwan and Republic of China articles, provided that they are merged and one redirected to the other. If we redirect ROC to Taiwan, then we make the statement that Taiwan is conventional short form for ROC, and that is true. However, we fail to make that statement if we leave ROC as a historical article (as it once was). We only run into problems when (assuming ROC redirects to Taiwan and not the other way around) we refer to the ROC in a historical context and confuse people by leading them to an article on Taiwan.

I fail to see your point again. No one here is claiming that TAR is synonmous with Tibet. I intend this article to discuss both the greater region and the TAR. Lhasa would be mentioned here regardless of whether it is part of the TAR. I don't see why an article on Tibet should be stripped of references to the TAR. Wouldn't you agree that the TAR is part of Tibet? --Jia ng 02:32, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I understand your point of view better now. Clearly the Tibet article should talk about TAR as part of talking about Tibet. I would say that the stuff that's unique to TAR as a bureaucratic entity -- stuff like the big infobox, the name of the province in Chinese, neighboring provinces, etc. should go on the TAR page. Cultural info would go on the Tibet page. For most purposes, if I go to the Tibet page, I'm looking for information about Tibet as a cultural entity. The province information is just a distraction. -- Walt Pohl 08:43, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The province info is relevant, just as a box exist at Beijing, but I don't object to an article on the administrative entity. However, splitting the history pre-1950 to this one and post-1950 to that one, then duplicating most of the rest, is unnacceptable. --Jia ng 06:21, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

There are incompatible gaps between Tibetan and Chinese conceptions. The Chinese name "Xizang" demonstrates it. And Tibet's regions of Ambo, Kham, U-Tsang, Ngari etc, have complicated correspondence with PRC's divisions. Jiang's "spaghetti" article makes it difficult to explain Tibetan conceptions cleary and prevents further expansion. Of course, my rough-and-ready partition leaves many things to be fixed, but that's not important for now. --Nanshu 04:19, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

My version explains it better than yours. Yours endorsed the Tibetan viewpoint, and used bullet points and arrows to show the correspondence. Let's try writing in complete sentences. If you have more text to add, show it. Try demonstrating that you have so much to add that it won't fit this page. Also state what's missing in my version. It currently fits fine. Tibetan history did not end in 1906 so partition is inappropriate.--Jia ng 06:21, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Believe it or not, I think a compromise is in sight. Do the two of you mind if I try a compromise edit? I would edit along these principles:

TAR covers the administrative entity, and facts specific to the entity.
Tibet covers the broader area.
History, culture etc. goes with Tibet. (Most of history should be on the History of Tibet page, anyway.)

Reactions? -- Walt Pohl 23:24, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, go ahead. The history section here was largely drawn from the history of Tibet article. It need not be any longer, but I don't see much trimming is needed. --Jia ng 01:48, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Nanshu, I'm waiting to hear from you before I edit it. Are you willing to wait while I try to make a compromise edit?. No need to revert to a particular version. I'll look at both of your recent versions while I make the edit . -- Walt Pohl 04:05, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Maybe I jumped the gun. I'm looking forward to your edit. --Nanshu 04:18, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Jiang is another guy who cannot wait... --Nanshu

I checked in a preliminary version of Tibet and Tibet Autonomous Region. I'm not done: after spending a couple of hours on it, it's now past my bedtime. :-) I'll work on it some more tomorrow.

I also checked in a stub for Tibetan Plateau, and expanded on Government of Tibet in Exile. -- Walt Pohl 07:44, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I had a question. What is the source of the division of Tibet into provinces, like Ando? Is it traditional? If so, at what point in Tibetan history do they arise? -- Walt Pohl 15:35, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I made some final few tweaks. I'd like to hear any feedback you have about the current versions of the pages before I do anything else. -- Walt Pohl

There's still considerable overlap in the economics and sections. We should limit TAR to a discussion of the political entity. That means the history starts in 1965. If we're going to put the banned Tibetan flag and coat of arms here, I don't see why we shouldn't put up a province table too. --Jia ng 02:24, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The Tibetan flag has been banned by an totalitarian and racist Regime. Why do you stick to that? Umrao

Ummmmmm.... TAR and Tibet are different things. -Dagestan

The current box with the coat of arms, etc., is not appropriate for this page. It is appropriate for the Government of Tibet in Exile page. -- Walt Pohl 08:41, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Technopilgrim here with comments on the edits I just made on this very sensitive page.

"Tibet" can refer to the TAR or to historic Tibet so I took out the wording that the "most common" meaning is TAR. If you look at the "what links here" links to Tibet I find the most common meaning is historic Tibet but the real problem is not which is the most common usage but the very phrase "most common" which is inappropriate here. So the present version refers to both.
Since we talk about TAR vs historic Tibet at the top of the page I've pulled the map graphic up to the top of the page also to be adjacent to the discussion
I weeded out some of the external links at the bottom. I threw out the ones that were in French or covered material already in the article. I tried to be evenhanded with regards to PRC/exile government viewpoints, but was hampered somewhat by the fact that the free Tibet folks put up vastly better websites than the PRC.
editorial choice -- I dropped the photo of the Ngari woman mainly because I don't find it representative or a particularly good photo, and also because it appears to be an undocumented lift from the http://www.tibet-hiking.com/registration.html website.
minor edit fixes throughout the page, including a cleaner way to link to Tibetan Buddhism

BTW, I support the concensus that we don't merge the TAR and Tibet pages but keep them separate and partitioned as agreed above. Of course the Goverment in Exile flag belongs on the Government in Exile page, not here. Tashi dalek. technopilgrim 18:11, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Sorry Technopilgrim, but the flag of Tibet does not just represent the government in exile, but it is what represents their culture and religion, and it is currently banned by the Chinese government. Dagestan

As I understand it, that flag specifically represents the former government of Tibet and only indirectly, at best, a set of cultural values. A prayer flag would be a more apt cultural symbol, if you insist on flag-waiving. Note that the flags of former governments rarely fly in their former lands, and when they do the atmosphere is unlikely to be nuetral. If you'd like a demonstration of this effect, try swapping the current flag on the Virginia page with the Confederate Flag (you might wisely refrain from explicitly mentioning the traditional cultural practices which are actively suppressed by the present government). Or take any European country and hoist the flag of the (present regime - 1) to see why this approach doesn't engender a NPOV. technopilgrim 23:38, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I've changed the map back to the previous version, since we didn't have copyright permission for the one that replaced it ( Image:Tibet_borders_over_time.jpg ). "No copyright claimed" does not equal "no copyright". Markalexander100 22:59, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Missing word

History section, 4th paragraph "The independence claim was a term used by revolutionaries the Qing dynasty." I think it needs a 'during' or perhaps an 'in' before 'the Qing dynasty'

I've no idea what any of that sentence means. What revolutionaries? Markalexander100 03:32, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Nanshu,you wonder why jiang are sensitive about the PRC-ROC issue but not about the Tibet-TAR one ,and I can tell you why. this is because jiang's country had succesfully controlled Tibet by military forces but still has not succesfully controlled taiwan by military forces now(However they are planing to),and that's difference which makes jiang are sensitive about the PRC-ROC issue but not about the Tibet-TAR one.

Some new work

I'm going to be working some on this article but mainly on History of Tibet and Foreign relations of Tibet as well as on a Tibetan resistance movement article over the next few weeks. At times what I have done on one article will not necessarily match what I have done on the others. This is complicated by the fact that edits will also be occuring on Wikinfo. Foreign relations of Tibet will mainly concern Tibetan attempts to achieve international recognition. Tibetan resistance movement will deal with Tibetan rebellions and CIA assistance to them. I'll mainly be working from the following books. Fred Bauder 20:05, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)

Recent POV edits

I find it hard to believe that this needs to be said, but any edit which includes sentences such as As a result, the Tibetans once again acknowledged themselves as subjects of the Great Empire of China is hardly likely to be NPOV, and has no place here.

Perhaps removing "Great" would serve? Fred Bauder 10:15, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

The origins of Xizang could conceivably be a useful scrap of information, but since Anon has already gone through two unsourced versions, I don't see any basis for including either in the article. Markalexander100 07:16, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It removes the onus on the Chinese of simply imposing a "made-up" name. I don't think any more sourcing than fluency in Chinese is required to establish that it is a transliteration. Fred Bauder 10:19, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

I rm'd the following: It is a well known and understood practice that Chinese characters used for phonetic transliteration of place names and people names are never meant to be interpreted literally and are used solely for the sound of the characters.

This is not true. For almost any transliteration multiple characters could be selected; particular characters are often chosen for their connotations (indeed, there is no other basis on which the selection could be made!). For reference, [2] (care must be taken by the translator to ensure that the characters selected, each of which has its own meaning, do not result in the transliteration ... into a word which is either silly or negative in its meaning). (While we're at it, this illustrates the difficulty of identifying and stripping out POV from unsourced, POV contributions; we can afford to be a little more rigorous). Markalexander100 03:24, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC

Okay yes, in commercial applications such as brand names and such, charaters are chosen for connotation in addition to the sound. But it is definitely true for place names and people names. You should not be so quick to say it is not true. Study the transliteration of every place name and person name and the characters used. I doubt you will find more than a small number where "connotation" was a consideration. Remember I said "PLACE NAMES AND PERSON NAMES". I did NOT say, "BRAND NAMES"! Perhaps saying "all" was going overboard but it is certainly true of "most", especially for place names and person names.

Annexation of Tibet

I have a question concerning the international status of Tibet: Is Tibet's annexation by China recognized by the international community? 62.47.73.113 16:20, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It is not considered an annexation, merely assertion of control over a region which was considered part of China. However there has been concern over human rights and how Chinese occupation has affected them. See [3], [4], [5], The Tibetan position Fred Bauder 19:10, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer. But I still wonder if the annexation/occupation/assertion of control over Tibet is deemed to be illegal under international law by the international community? Do some nations refute Chinas claim over tibet? Gugganij 22:39, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

There is general disgust and at times the United States has considered recognizing Tibet but never made the decision. Britain had Hong Kong to worry about. However see The Tibetan position Fred Bauder 23:55, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)

Misunderstanding over the Chinese character 藏 for transliteration of U-Tsang for Tibet

Some people have maintained that the use of the zang (藏) character is offensive because one of the meanings of this character is "storehouse". Thus, if interpretated "literally", the two characters for Xizang is "western storehouse". (Xi means west, typically), which some maintain has a perjorative connotation (because they believe it describes Tibet as a "western storehouse".

Generally speaking, characters used in Chinese transliteration are never meant to be interpretated literally. A reader of the transliterated phrase sees the transliterated phrase as an entirely new word with little relation to the meaning of the individual characters. By way of example, "Denmark" is not decomposed into "Den" and "Mark" for an English reader. The same is also true for multiple-character words in Chinese, but especially in transliterated words. And in most cases, when transliterated characters are used, the "literal" meaning is typically silly nonsense. Some examples of transliterated place names.

古巴 (Cuba) - if interpreted based on the meaning of the individual characters, it means "ancient", "wish"

墨西哥 (Mexico) - "ink stick", "west", "brother"

蘇格蘭 (Scotland) - "Revive", "Frame", "Orchid"

波蘭 (Poland) - "Storm", "Orchid"

葡萄牙 (Portugal) - "Grape-stained Teeth"

希臘 (Greece) - "rare", "preserved meat"

etc, etc, etc. (many, many more examples available)

Generally speaking, transliteration of place names and person's names are done regardless of how silly or nonsensical its literally characters mean. When transliterating brand names or phrases for commercial use, however, much more care is typically used to avoid "silly nonsense" and to use words with some meaningful, positive connotation in order to better advertise the brand or product name.

However, again, it must be noted that for a Chinese reader, a transliterated phrase is never parsed but is treated as one new phrase. (Note "Denmark" vs "Den" "Mark" or "Germany" vs "Germ" "Many" in English).

Therefore, it is abundantly clear that in almost all cases, characters used in transliterated phrases for place names are not meant to be interpretated literally back into English. Therefore to say that a translated phrase means something "literally" when it has no such connotation in Chinese is simply wrong.

Now, the next questions that comes up are? Is "western storage" negative? This is an individual judgement of course. Is it any more negative than "ink", "west", "brother" (Mexico), "grape-stained teeth" (Portugal) or "rare" "preserved meat" (Greece) and any of the other silly "literal" translations?

But the issue is not fully examined because we should also examine the meaning of the zang character 藏 itself. According to this online dictionary [2] (http://chinese.primezero.com/pzcdz/o.html) this is what it says:

寶藏 - (An Zang) precious (mineral) deposits;

西藏 - (Xi Zang) Tibet; Xizang; Xizang autonomous region; (as we well know now, when used with Xi, it means Tibet)

藏 - (Zang) storehouse; depository; Buddhist or Taoist scripture; Zang; Tibet;

藏文 - (Zang Wen) Tibetan language;

藏族 - (Zang Zu) Tibetan nationality;

藏 - (Cang) to hide away; to conceal; to harbor; store; accumulate (this is the same character but pronounced cang)

Thus if one insists on using a "literal" translation of the character "Zang", apart from "Tibet", then the following are possible:

Xizang - (1) "West" "Mineral" (2) "West" "Storage" (3) "West" "scripture" (4) "West" "Conceal"

Zangwen - (1) "Mineral" "Language" (2) "Storage" "Language" (3) "scripture" "Language" (4) Conceal Language

Zangzu - (1) "Mineral" "People" (2) "Storage" "People" (3) "scripture" "people" (4) Conceal People

since "zang" has the meaning of "mineral", "storehouse", "depository", "buddhist/taoist scripture".

It must be noted, however, that in the Chinese language, a character does not have a single meaning attached to it as the example of "zang" illustrates. It is not known when the character "zang" was first used to describe Tibetans but evidence exists that "zang" has been used for centuries for this purpose. Thus the meaning of "zang" changed to include "Tibet/Tibetans" in additional and apart from all its other possible meanings. Thus a "literal translation" based on the other possible meanings of the character is incorrect. "Zang" when used to describe the land, language or people, means Tibet/Tibetans PERIOD (not "mineral", not "storage", not "depository", not "scripture", not "conceal").

Saying that "Xizang" mean Tibet but "literally" means "Western Storage" is like saying Turkey means the country Turkey but "literally" means some kind of bird. Both are nonsense statements.

But the issue can be examined even further. Do websites and documents of the PRC allude to the possibility that perhaps the "zang" character was chosen because of connotations with "storage" (or "mineral", or "depository" or "scripture", etc) In searching PRC govt websites, there is nothing written to indicate that the use of the character "zang" was chosen due to its connotations with "storehouse" (or "mineral" or "depository" or "scripture") and a few mention simply that it comes from U-Tsang. In any case, it was chosen not by the PRC but was in use for centuries, so whatever the reason "zang" was chosen, it has in these years taken on the meaning of "Tibet/Tibetan" literally and apart from the characters other meanings. It now means "Tibet/Tibetan" in its own right just like Turkey has a meaning of the country Turkey in its own right despite having the same spelling as the bird.

Finally, another issue to examine is who, how many, and why are people "offended" by the term Xizang?

It is doubtlessly the case that some individual Tibetans and their supporters are offended. However, in reviewing the Tibetan government in exile sites as well as the major pro-Tibetan independence sites there is no mention that the word "xizang" is considered offensive and objectionable and there are no demands that some other term or character be used in Chinese. There is no publication indicating that "xizang" is objectionable. Nor do any of these sites mention that Xizang is supposed to mean "Western Storage". By all accounts, the word "xizang" is accepted as meaning "Tibet" in its own right and has no other meaning by both the PRC and Tibet-in-exile governments. Therefore while some individuals may be offended for whatever reason, there is no evidence to indicate that it is generally considered offensive and undesirable as the Tibet-in-exile government websites and all the major pro-Tibetan independence sites make no issue of it at all.

As to why some people are offended, there are many possibilities. It is certainly possible and probable that "ignorance" causes it. Another possibility is that it was concocted to generate hostility against China.

However, in making the simple claim that the term "Xizang is offensive", the following facts needs to be considered and presented as well:

- there is no evidence that it was chosen because Tibet/Tibetans were considered "Western Storage"

- Zang has other meanings besides "storage" thus the "literal" meaning could be "Western Minerals", "Western Scriptures", etc etc

- it is used to mean "Tibet/Tibetan" period as the same character is used to describe Tibetans and their language

- in general, all Chinese place names used in transliterations are not intrepreted and parsed into their multiple possible individual meanings in Chinese thus translating back in to English the "literal" meaning is nonsense. To understand, imagine that in the Chinese language, it is written, "Turkey is the spelling for the country located in SW Asia. However, the "literal meaning" is this slow fat ugly bird you eat for dinner. It is meant as a negative connotation of Turkey thus they used the same "character" as the bird". Wouldn't that be a nonsense statement?

- it is not even evident that it is generally considered offensive, no Tibetan websites make it an issue whatsoever and here in wikipedia land only TWO people have said it is "offensive".

Thus the claim should either be withdrawn or explained as a misunderstanding and also it should be mentioned that Tibetan sites don't consider it offensive despite some individuals considering it offensive. It should also be mentioned that "Western Storage" is an English "literal" interpretation not a Chinese "literal" interpretation. No Chinese govt website says it means "Western Storage". It is thus inaccurate to say it "literally" means "Western Storage" because in Chinese in LITERALLY means Tibet PERIOD.

Or if people insist it is "offensive" despite all this evidence to suggest otherwise then ALL of this evidence should be presented to explain why it probably shouldn't be considered offensive and let people decide for themselves whether it is reasonable for "Xizang" to be considered offensive or not.

(End of temporary "Is Xizang offensive?" section)

I assume that was added to the article by accident? Markalexander100 09:45, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes and no. I originally wanted to expand and explain with proof and details why it is not meant to be offensive and shouldn't be considered offensive. But to do it rigorously makes it unsuitable for the main article so I posted it here. But I decided to leave it in, hoping the info would be used to make a better, less POV statement. I don't consider my argument a "rant" as you call it. It's pretty detailed explanation as to why it shouldn't be considered offensive because it is not supposed to mean "Western Storage" at all and it is unfair to state so as a fact and is definite POV to just leave the article the way it is.

To leave it the way it is at the moment, which is

"The literal meaning of the two characters of Xizang is "western storehouse", which some Tibetans and their supporters find offensive. Others maintain that the meaning of the particular characters is irrelevant."

is simply insufficient IMHO. It fails to show that "Western Storehouse" is not the only possible "literal" meaning. It could "literally" mean "Western Scriptures", "Western Minerals". There is no basis to assert this particularly "literal" meaning in place of other "literal" meanings. It fails to show that there is no evidence to support that China intended it to have the connotation "Western Storehouse" (or any other connotations for that matter) It fails to show that it is common practice, as I have demonstrated with many examples, that in many cases (okay not all) with transliterations, the connotations are unintended and not considered to have these meanings. It also fails to show that instead of having a connotation at all, it is correctly a character that means Tibet/Tibetan in its own right. It is used as the character for Tibetan language

It is also blatatly not NPOV. If a reader sees it and has no idea of all the facts surrounding it sounds quite negative to me like China is being insensitive or intentionally trying to call it "Western Storehouse".

The point is that the evidence doesn't really support it. I have spent a lot of time making my case. So I can't let it go and have it reverted unless you can make a stronger case as to why your more negative POV statement should stand in place of a less negative POV one. To assert that it is "offensive" without all the facts taints the article. It also leads to my suspicions, unfair or not, that you want to bias the article by implying that China is intentionally causing an offense to a significant number of Tibetans thus biasing the reader right away. It's not right to do it.

144.189.40.223 has made his point. Fred Bauder 11:35, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)

Markalexander100, please find at least one reference that anyone other than a Wikipedia editor finds the transliteration offensive. Fred Bauder 02:24, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)

[6] . For the Tibetans' preferred usage see [7]; for offensive place names imposed by the Chinese generally see [8] (page 8 onwards}. Markalexander100 06:46, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

---

Okay let's, ONCE AGAIN look at all the issues involved. 1. First let's look at the statements:

The two characters of Xizang can literally mean "western storehouse", which some Tibetans and their supporters find offensive. Others maintain that the meaning of the particular characters used is irrelevant.

Regardless of the veracity of the statement, it is clearly not NPOV by wikipedia standard when all facts and POV are considered. I have already given ample strong argument as to why any assertion that "The two characters of Xizang can literally mean "western storehouse" is very flimsy even though as narrowly constructed using the new "can literally mean" (notice the sneaky way of adding "can" to the new version of the statement) is not patently false. The problem though is that it gives this view far more validity than careful examination and research suggests to any casual reader. Its very inclusion also suggests that there is widespread opposition to the term so much so that it merits inclusion rather than being a very peripheral "issue" (if it could be called that). It fails to consider all the facts and contexts and suggests it is intentional, or insensitive rather than coincidental or possibly contrived by opponents. A NPOV would have to at least address these views. If it is insisted that we included statements saying it is offensive, then all relevant facts and arguments should be made available to discuss whether this "offense" is valid and reasonable or not. The possibility that it is a smear tactic should also be stated (as well as denials I'm sure). Then let readers decide for themselves.

The follow-up statement, "Others maintain that the meaning of the particular characters used is irrelevant." gives the impression that despite that this "literal interpretion" is valid, others dismiss it, thus subtly implying some deliberate attitude of indifference and insensitivity. It implies Tibetans consistently raise the issue but it is rejected as being "irrelevant" which is not the case.

To claim that this is a "concise statement of the two positions" is far off the mark and is patently disingenuous because this "conciseness" obviously is meant to give a mistaken impression and fails to give the reader the full context. But that is the point of having these statements, isn't it, to mislead and obfuscate the full facts.

By analogy, consider the following statements, if used in a Chinese encyclopedia. "In English, the word for Turkey the country can literally mean the domesticated bird used for food, which some find offensive. Others maintain that the same word used for both is irrelevant".

"In English, the word for Germany the country can be decomposed into the words "Germ" and "Many", which some find offensive. Others maintain that the the resemblence is irrelevant".

Both statements are actually factually true if we deconstructed the statements through the use of the "can" qualifier and also the use of "some find offensive". However, based on NPOV as well as full factual context, relevance and scope both are also obviously unworthy statements to include into any Chinese encyclopedia, same as the "Xizang = western storehouse" statement.

There is of course also the question of its relevancy and whether the intended content of the statement is important enough to include despite it obviously tainting the article and introducing a strong anti-Chinese bias. Thus regardless of the merits of the statements, as presently constructed it clearly violates NPOV and should not be included. Basically, people with axes to grind found something that "could" be considered "offensive" despite flimsy support and evidence to the countrary, assert "they" are offended, and then claiming this "fact" should be included in a blatant attempt to bias the article.

---

2. Okay, so now let's look at the merits and so-called "evidence" supporting the statement. Three links are provided, so let's examine each one in turn:

A. http://www.tibetjustice.org/reports/un/unint9.html

On the very top it says that it was "A written intervention submitted by the Transnational Radical Party, a non-governmental organization in general consultative status." It is an advocate organization and thus is hardly trying to be objective or impartial. It is thus not any kind of authoritative, official declaration for either Tibetans in general or the PRC.

But furthermore, let's actually look at the relevant text of the document itself. It says, "It is no accident, for instance, that China refers to Tibet as Xizang, which means 'Western Treasure House.' Beijing's central planners view Tibet as a wealth of resources to be extracted for China's benefit."

There are two obvious problems with this statement. The most obvious is that it doesn't support the assertion that, "The two characters of Xizang can literally mean "western storehouse", which some Tibetans and their supporters find offensive." It claims "western treasure house" not "western storehouse". It is also obviously, as the general tone of the POV article, a smear meant to generate hostility to China. But again, it asserts "western treasure house" not "western storehouse". The article also makes no assertion that it is an offensive term for Tibetans.

But a thorough analysis of the character "zang", I can find ZERO justification that "zang" in any usage means "treasure house". In looking up the character "zang", I find nothing resembling "treasure house". So not only is this article attempting to smear China unfairly, it is using "Xizang = Western Treasure House" which has zero justification. But EVEN FURTHERMORE, Xizang was used for centuries since the Qing dynasty and not a recent term coined by the PRC. So if it was "no accident that China calls Xizang as Western Treasure House" then somehow the Qing had some future prediction and foresight that at some point the PRC govt would take over and want to exploit this "treasure house". That is absurd.

For these many reasons, the use of such article to defend the factual merits of the (xizang "can" be interpreted as "western storage") is dubious.

Now of course, there is no doubt that there are other articles which makes assertions of how "xizang means western treasure house" (curiously I found none about "western storage") because they want to make the smear that "China views Tibet as a place to be exploited" The problem with that of course is that there is no justication for "zang=treasure house" whatsoever even very flimsy ones. What is also curious is that either through "ignorance" or deliberation, none reference that fact that it is a transliteration of U-Tsang. Of course including it would weaken and raise doubt about the "Xizang means Western Store/Treaure House" stuff. But it could also imply "ignorance" and if this were known, they would not make this "literal meaning" claim.

Such obviously POV smear articles are "proof" only by circular reasoning not by examining the actual underlying facts. Think about it, a wikipedia smear article says it means "western treasure/store house". As "proof" it lists other smear articles that make the same baseless claim. Then of course I am sure at some point some smear article can reference wikipedia. The point is that if the "proof" consists of articles written by biased, POV writers with a clear agenda to demonize China then there is some question whether the "proof" of Xizang = Wesetern Treasure/Storehouse has real basis or is not instead manufactured to generate hostility.

---

B. http://www.angrymonk.ch/texts/meizhuo_sg.pdf

It says, "Nowadays many Tibetans living in Tibet prefer to use this name for Tibet rather than the Chinese name "Xizang" since it only includes central Tibet and leaves Amdo and Kham out."

I have no problem, if it is deemed important and relevant enough, to include this statement. However, it says Tubo is preferred over Xizang because of the scope of Xizang not because of "Xizang = Western Treasure/Storehouse". Furthermore the writer is a Tibetan who lived in Tibet but is fluent in Chinese too and is a critic of Tibetan policies. So if this "Xizang = Western Treasure/Storehouse" was a widespread connotation and a term of offense, you'd think he'd mentione this stronger objection as opposed to this other objection.

In any case, I am sure Tubo must have some so-called "literal interpretations" that might be objectionable if someone what to insist on making such a point. In fact as I have point out in nearly every transliteration of place names, this same claim could be made.

--- C. http://www.smhric.org/E_Bulag.pdf

This article has nothing to do with Xizang and has no bearing on "Xizang=West Store/Treasurehouse" claim. As to the article claiming all these Mongolian transliteration are "offensive", its claims require further scrunity which I have no time for but is irrelevant here.

---

In the most recent edit, I have included the following statement to explain zang. IMHO, it is factual and NPOV there is no basis to remove it (other than for deceitful, intellectually dishonest reasons, of course).

The Chinese character (藏, zàng), is also exclusively used to describe things Tibetan such as the Tibetan language (藏文, zàng wén) and the Tibetan people (藏族, zàng zú). ((藏, zàng) is also a homograph containing many other unrelated meanings [9]. However, the unrelated meanings are not meant to be inferred from one another as is the case of all homonyms.)

I've spent enough time on this and I have presented my point as thoroughly and as rigorously as possible so I have nothing more to say. I have no interest in fighting with editors that insist on introducing bias to taint an article and who give every indication of being intellectually dishonest and not trying to deal in good faith. Doubtlessly, my latest edit will not be the final word but I have no desire to engage in endless edit/revert wars. My career as a wikipedian is over based on this experience.

I recommend that some balanced, NPOV interim version should be imposed. I believe Fred Bauder understands my arguments and evidence and I have respect for Fred Bauder and trust him to do it. In the past, he has behaved honorably, fairly and appears to act in good faith. Once some NPOV and balanced version is in place, editted by Fred Baunder, I request that trusted people, perhaps former editors of this page, and other members that might be familiar with the issue to settle this issue once and for all.

Again, wonderful and persuasive research. Please don't give up on Wikipedia over this minor issue. Fred Bauder 01:09, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)

Progress

I think was are making progress on the transliteration issue, one meaning for zang which leaps out is "Buddhist scripture". Before we decide it is time for mediation/arbitration) we all need to go though more basic dispute resolution procedures, like talking this over and doing the kind of research you are both doing. Fred Bauder 01:21, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)

Fred, personally I agree with you that Buddhist scripture is the relevant connotation. That is my POV, but I haven't put it in the article because I have no evidence for it. There is evidence for the two interpretations mentioned in the article (as of my last edit). The question is simply whether the Tibetan POV should be mentioned. It should. Markalexander100 03:06, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

-- Okay this is my final word on this as I am now retiring officially.

There is big problem with the statement and it is unacceptable the way it is. The statements gives the so-called "Tibetan POV" but does not give the other side's POV whatsover. He even erased my statement about that Xizang means Tibet and Zang is used to refer to Tibet language (zangwen) and Tibetan people (zangzu) which has no POV whatsover.

Again it is hardly NPOV to say:

The two characters of Xizang can literally mean "western storehouse", which some Tibetans and their supporters find offensive. Others maintain that the meaning of the particular characters used is irrelevant.

Regardless of the veracity of the statement, it is clearly not NPOV by wikipedia standard when all facts and POV are considered. I have already given ample strong argument as to why any assertion that "The two characters of Xizang can literally mean "western storehouse" is very flimsy even though as narrowly constructed using the new "can literally mean" (notice the sneaky way of adding "can" to the new version of the statement) is not patently false. The problem though is that it gives this view far more validity than careful examination and research suggests to any casual reader. Its very inclusion also suggests that there is widespread opposition to the term so much so that it merits inclusion rather than being a very peripheral "issue" (if it could be called that). It fails to consider all the facts and contexts and suggests it is intentional, or insensitive rather than coincidental or possibly contrived by opponents. A NPOV would have to at least address these views.

If it is insisted that we included statements saying it is offensive, then all relevant facts and arguments should be made available to discuss whether this "offense" is valid and reasonable or not. The possibility that it is a smear tactic should also be stated (as well as denials I'm sure). Then let readers decide for themselves.

The follow-up statement, "Others maintain that the meaning of the particular characters used is irrelevant." gives the impression that despite that this "literal interpretion" is valid, others dismiss it, thus subtly implying some deliberate attitude of indifference and insensitivity. It implies Tibetans consistently raise the issue but it is rejected as being "irrelevant" which is not the case.

To claim that this is a "concise statement of the two positions" is far off the mark and is patently disingenuous because this "conciseness" obviously is meant to give a mistaken impression and fails to give the reader the full context. But that is the point of having these statements, isn't it, to mislead and obfuscate the full facts.

There is also still no evidence whatsover for the Xizang = Western Storage is considered offensive despite claims to the contrary. I have dealt with it already the so-called proof. Again I believe arbitration is necessary as there has never been and never will be "progress". And since I believe Fred Bauder you understand and appreciate my objections and arguments well you should make some interim edit that I'm sure will do for now (addressing the need to claim it is "offensive" but also that there are POVs why it is not offensive. Saying that "Others maintain it is irrelevant" hardly does that.

Out ---

could there be a NPOV version of this?

September 11th was a tragedy for the American people, but it was a boon for totalitarian regimes around the world. In the pursuit of its so-called “war on terror,” the United States has forged military alliances and inked trade deals with some of the world’s most repressive regimes. On September 13, 2001 China was quietly admitted to the World Trade Organization, and given Most Favored Nation status by U.S., despite the fact the country is one of the world’s worst human rights abusers.

With its economy booming, China has become desperate to exploit Tibet's vast mineral and fuel reserves - and that has meant keeping a tight grip on any moves towards Tibetan autonomy. Arrests, torture and destruction of local culture continue despite the tireless work of Tibetan exiles and their high-profile western allies. In fact, the situation grows more dire by the day. Yet unlike an increasing number of indigenous liberation movements, Tibetans have not resorted to violence to achieve their goals.Pedant 17:25, 2004 Oct 22 (UTC)

And how is this relevant to the writing and NPOV-ization of this article...? -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 22:02, Oct 22, 2004 (UTC)

edit: Oh, if I understand you right, you want to put that above paragraph in, but NPOVized? That shouldn't be that hard — as soon as I have the time, I'll splice what's on Chinese Wikipedia here (and vice versa, of course). Then we'll have both opposing viewpoints on both language versions. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 22:08, Oct 22, 2004 (UTC)

PERFECT thank you Ran ! If you have the time, would you look over Government of Tibet in Exile as well? I have added a 'neutralised' version of the above to the '21st Century' section... if you could add any Chinese POV to that section it would be excellent. Thank you very much for your quick response! If I can be of any help to you please don't hesitate to ask.Pedant 02:38, 2004 Oct 23 (UTC)