languageTalk:List of footballers (archive 1)
While I have some sympathy for the arguments here on both sides, isn't List of footballers (Association football) a perfect example of when "natural disambiguation" is called for? Martin
- No. Because if you do a google search for Association football you only come up with 18,800 hits it is not in common usage. Mintguy
- Also 'footballers' is unambiguous because you don't use the term 'footballers' for players of American football, the major dissenter on the use of the word 'football'.
- You misinterpret me - I mean that the title List of footballers (Association football) uses "bracketed disambiguation" in an awkward manner, when, AFAICT, wikipedia prefers so-called "natural disambiguation" like Java programming language or Titan rocket. Still, it could be worse - nobody's tried list of sports people (Association football) yet... ;-)
- I've no idea whether we should disambiguate or not, but if we decide to disambiguate then we should do it properly, right? Martin
Just to confirm, Mintguy is not alone in his opinion that what is currently at football should not be moved to soccer. Many non-North Americans would, I think, jump to the conclusion that the 'pedia is too US-centric if that were the case - they would never dream of saying the "right" name for football is soccer unless they were bending over backwards to be accommodating to an American guest! Pcb21
I agree. Association football is what most of the world calls "football". "Soccer" is a slang term, and not its proper name, and should not be used as an article title. However, we've got to be aware that for hundreds of millions of English-speaking people "football" means some other local variant (although they are usually also aware of the usage for Association football). Disambiguation is the only answer. I propose the following:
- We should use the full name everywhere for Association Football, except where obvious from context.
- The same for other forms of football.
- Where the term 'football' is used without regional context, it should be redirected to the relevant 'association football' page, and that page should have a disambiguation header pointing to the local variant articles
The Anome 10:59 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)
- But football is not gerally known as associated football in modern times as a google hunt confirms Mintguy
- Google really likes soccer - as already proven it is more popular than football on English language pages. --mav
- It still is too ambiguous for us to use. A great many Americans and other people who also use the word "football" will be looking for their sport called football at football. Thus an obvious disambiguation page with a list of links to all the sports called "football" is needed in order to quickly direct them to where they need to go.
- Football is a horrid mess with the first several paras trying to do an encyclopedic discussion on the different things called football - which is real dumb since these sports have little to do with each other and are really separate subjects (and Wikipedia is not a dictionary so we don't have articles on words but subjects). It has also been proved by JTD that the word "soccer" is very often used when that sport needs to be disambiguated from other sports called "football". We also have a very clear naming convention to deal with these cases at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision). --mav
- I'm in the middle of writing up football offline, so please don't change anything there. It will describe the common history of the modern games. Mintguy
- IMO whatever you write should be broken-up and placed on their respective pages. Having an article about "things that people call football" would not be very useful. A disambiguation list with the content under specific titles is really the only thing football should be. --mav
- But all the games share a common history. Don't you know that?! Mintguy
- Yeah I remember that - but I thought you were going to summarize each one of the sports at football (which would be an expansion of the first four paragraphs). Hm. Come to think of it what you propose may be interesting - if done right. It would also reduce redundancy since each particular sport would simply link to football instead of repeating similar information. ---mav
- When you say "except where obvious from context" - does that mean that in an article on the United Kingdom one would link [[Association football|football]] and in an article on the United States one would link [[American football|football]] ? Martin
- That looks like a reasonable way to do it for me. The same thing already is done with US cities where the state and comma are usually hidden from display via a pipe. --mav
It is disingenuous to claim that "most of the world plays (association) football, therefor the main football page should be about soccer". Soccer is the most popular style of football, but mainly in non-English speaking areas. Most of the world's English speakers probably use the word "football" to mean gridiron. (Assuming, of course, that we regard the US dialect as a form of English.) The two forms of rugby have huge followings as well. Anyway, there is only one real sort of football, and that's Australian Rules. Come to that, there is only one football club, Collingwood, and all the others are pale imitations. Errr ... did somebody say "NPOV"?
Perhaps it would be better to put the main pages for the individual codes under whatever the followers of those codes desire - Association football (or Soccer - I have no opinion on this, except insofar as "soccer" is far better known), Rugby Union, Australian Rules football, Gaelic football and so on. Having done that, then we can make redirects in the form: "Football (soccer)" or "Football (American)" so that to link to (e.g.) American football, you need only type "football (American)|" to get a link that looks like football but goes to the correct page - which might be American football.
Tannin 11:29 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)
I've read almost everything above (including the archive) and I wanted to throw in my two (Euro)cents:
- I also think that "football" only means one thing to most people. I've traveled in many countries in different continents and my experience confirms that.
- FIFA, UEFA, and a plethora of other organizations use the word "footbal" to mean only one thing.
- As a Belgian I can say that (contrary to what JTD says) Belgians do not speak of soccer when they mean football (Dutch: voetbal, French: football).
On the other hand:
- I realize there might be a problem with people not familiar with the use of "football" in the sense most of the world uses it. If it should be disambiguated, please keep it as simple as possible, with a clear reference to the term "football". And please, please, please do not use that horrible term "soccer".
D.D. 11:37 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)
This is the whole point you don't seem to have grasped Mav. That many, many many people find the use of the word 'soccer' for football objectionable. Mintguy
- I have no idea why they would find it objectionable, but if large groups of people do find it to be objectionable then that breaks our common use naming convention. But this sport still needs to be disambiguated. The only question in my mind now is what we should use as a disambiguated title for this sport. --mav
- As I suggested ages ago. [football (disambiguation)]] and football. what is wrong with that? Mintguy
- What? That solves nothing. --mav
- It ignores common usage. Tannin
- Where is the problem anyway?, American footbal is at American football, Gaelic football is at Gaelic football, Australian rules football is at Australian rules football. and the game that everybody else on the planet (including New Zealanders, and South Africans) know as football is at football. What's wrong with that?
- No. American football is football. See that is the problem - all these sports share the same name. The others are at disambiguated titles and soccer should also be at a disambiguated title. I thought you were working on a common history of all these sports and have that live at football? That I can agree with so long as all the specific information about soccer is on its own separate page. --mav
- American football is known throughtout the world as American football and gridiron football in Australia - That's a problem for you. But football is known throughout the world as football.
- Please, let's nail this "everyone else on the planet" nonsense. Even a monolinguist like me who must depend on Google for translations knows that "everyone else on the planet" plays Fußball or balompié or le football or gioco del calcio or even sorry, this text cannot be translated. (That's what Google told me the Portugese say!) Insisting that "the whole world" says "football" is just plain foolish. Tannin
- It's far from nonsense. Tannin please look at the German, Spanish, and Italian football federation pages, written in English and see what they call the game. They do not call it soccer. The International football FIFA governing body call it football and it is part of their name. The olympic movement call it football. Internationally the game is known as football and not soccer. Mintguy
- And 200+ million Americans also call their sport "football". Therefore we need to disambiguate. --mav
- Of course the soccer/association team web pages call it "football"! Everybody calls the game they play "football". I played football as a kid. I played on the half-back flank, took marks, kicked drop-punts and tried to rove my ruckman's tap-outs from the ball-ups. Mav probably played football at school too, only he would have played at quarter-back, stood behind the line of scrimmage, and thrown bombs and bullets. If I'd been born a few hundred miles further north ot 2000 miles further east I would have played football, only been a Number Eight or the full back, battered myself silly in the ruck and maul, taken my place in the line-out. And, if I'd been born in a working-class part of England, then I'd have played football at centre-forward or maybe been a goalie. Everybody plays football. Everybody calls the game they play "football". And I havent't even mentioned rugby league or Gaelic football yet. Insisting that the game played by a minority of English-speakers is the one and only "football" is arrogant and silly. Tannin 12:36 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)
- The British, Indians, Scandanavians, New Zealanders, South Africans, half of Ireland call it 'football' The French call it football'. The Portuguese and 200 million Brazilians call it 'futebol', Germans 'Fußball' , Dutch 'voetbal', Spanish fútbol (their federation is 'Real Federación Española de Fútbol') balompiéis used much less frequently. These are all variants on football and no connection with the word soccer. The Italian name comes from an old game played in Florence, that was lost in antiquity till revived by Mussolini, is has no connection with the word 'soccer', and they used to call it football. This is the game that the majority of the world in whatever language know as football (however you spell it), and the majority of English speakers (including non-native speakers) know at football. Mintguy
- Everbody calls their sport football and this is the English Wikipedia so usage outside of English isn't relevant. The word isn't owned by any one sport. The consensus is for us to disambiguate soccer. You've already said that "soccer" is offensive so we are just going to use something else. --mav
- Nobody is arguing that S/A football fans don't call it "football". No-one is arguing that it has to be called "soccer" or "association football" or "football (soccer)" or anything else. Call it anything you like except "football" - football is already taken. The point you are ignoring is that (a) there are several other meanings to the word "football" (which in itself is sufficient to compel disambiguation), and (b) that these people make up the majority of English-speakers. 250 million in the USA, 30 million in Canada. 20 million in Australia - in those three countries alone we have a clear majority. Tannin
- I am working on the common history, and in that common history an important historical point is the split of Rugby football (not because of carrying the ball, but because of hacking (kicking other players in the shins)) from which most (haven't fully researched Gaelic football) of the other sports are derived. Then it will describe the game the game that is now known as football throughout the world. Mintguy
Look when I've finished writing it 'football' will describe the Chinese, Greek and Roman ancestry of the game, the Shrovetide games played throughout Europe, the numerous attempts to ban it,the first use of the word football (it was known as 'playing at the game of ball', incidentally football was originally inferring that it was played on foot and not on horseback, hence the fact that the games involved a lot of carrying of the ball and not much kicking) the first formation of a set of rules (in Italy where the word 'calcio' comes from), its acceptance by the gentry, its adoption by the English public school, the numerous versions of the game where each institution had their own rules, the later attempts to find a unified set of rules (Cambridge rules 1848), the split of the Eton game and the Sheffield game, the mythical William Web Ellis, the final split of the hacking game (Rugby), the transportation of these games to Canada/America and Australia. And when I've researched it the history of Gaelic football too. Mintguy
- That's great. I'll read it with interest. It might be wise to be aware, though, that others will read (and edit) it as though it was a history of ecumenical Christianity written by the Pope. :) Tannin
- In my own, non-NPOV world, football is football because it's played using ones feet. Whilst American football is a much younger sport, spawned miles away from where I live and NOT played using ones feet. Obviously we need a solution here. Calling it soccer is out of the question. We need to disambiguate one way or another. Personally, I would settle for football (american) and football (association football). But that's just my opinion. WojPob
The football article is a mess. So, let's look at at the options:
- Make football a disambiguation page and move the content to soccer.
- This is unacceptable. Soccer is only used in the US and Canada (and Australia?). Every other country in the world uses the term "football" for this game. As an international encyclopedia, we have to avoid such an obvious American bias.
- Make football a disambiuation page and move the content to association football.
- Better than the first option, but still problematic, as the term "association
soccer(oops, football)", while technically correct, is rarely used.
- Better than the first option, but still problematic, as the term "association
- Leave the game at football and add a disambiguation block and create a page called football (disambiguation) that lists the other sports.
I favour this option. The fact is, the majority of English speakers (native and otherwise) in the world call this particular game "football", unqualified. Others are either given qualifiers or other names.Not anymore; see below.
- -- Stephen Gilbert 15:32 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)
I second that. The third option looks the best by far. Just as the name football isn't "owned" by any particular form of the game, native English speakers don't "own" English either. English is spoken as a second, third, ... language by far more people than there are native English speakers. It is fine to say that this is the English Wikipedia, if it doesn't mean that non-native speakers of the language can't have their say. D.D. 16:25 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)
- (1) Soccer is used in the US, Canada and Australia - i.e., most of the English-speaking world. (2) Who said anything about "association soccer" anyway? (3) "Others are either given qualifiers or other names" Sez who? Everybody around the world says "football", the majority mean American football by the term, but that doesn't mean that we should exclude all other groups by arrogantly appropriating the term "football" to American football either. Tannin
1. You mean most of the native English-speaking world. Wikipedia is for everyone who speaks English, not just native speakers.
2. No one said anything about "associatation soccer" other than me, and it was an error. Replace "soccer" with "football" in that sentence.
3. Simply not true. Americans mean American football, Canadians mean Canadian football, Australians mean Australian football, and everyone else means "association football".
I think this can be brought down to one central problem: the sport in question has two commonly-used names: football and soccer. "Football" is a problem because there are a variety of other sports that use that name. Normally, we would create a disambiguation page. However, the other name, "soccer" is only commonly used in a couple countries. So, what are some proposals? -- Stephen Gilbert
Mintguy still hasn't answered any of the problems many users have thrown up, just ignored them and kept on repeating his own argument over and over and . . . .
They are:
- 'football' is a term used by many sports in many counties. For example, a google search produced vast numbers of references to football, as he constantly keeps mentioning, But if you look a little closer, you find they aren't all references to 'association football but also tons of pages about American football, endless lists of references to rugby clubs, pages and pages about gaelic football, numerous references to Australian Rules football. In other word there is no such thing as football. There are different codes of football, meaning that what Mintguy automatically thinks of as football is not what Mav automatically thinks when he hears the word. And what Mav thinks of as the sport it is referring to is not what I automatically think of a football, and what I mean by football isn't what someone from Australia thinks of when the hear the word 'football.' etc etc. Yet Mintguy still seems insistent that what he thinks of as football is football. The google search shows he is wrong. Many millions would agree with him. Equally many millions wouldn't. Which means, by definition, you cannot then use football as referring to one sport when it actually can mean any one of a number;
- Most of the people who have contributed here agree that giving ownership of the disputed term 'football' to association football is not on. What we have to find is an alternative description. Personally, though 'Association football' is the technically correct term it is rarely used so unless we cannot find something better, I'd leave it to one side. One of the most common terms used is soccer. Claims by Mintguy that it is slang is wrong. According to the Oxford english dictionary, (and I quote again, as Mintguy ignored it the first time) soccer / noun Association Football. That is from a British dictionary that does not include slang. So what word does it use: soccer. Pure and simple. A word used in the US. In Ireland. In Britain (yes it does, Mintguy - I went through the weekend British tabloids last night. It featured in all but one.) Contrary to what has been said, it is sometimes used in Europe. It has been used to me by Belgian and German friends (we were speaking english at the time, so many they don't use it speaking in their native language, but they sure as hell used it speaking english. - actually, just remembered, Klaus began discussing 'soccer' with another guy at the bar in german, so it obviously is used there too. Many not as widespread as in the US, Ireland (+ UK) but it is used. JTD
- Hold your horses there. As the name of the Irish game is Gaelic football, you are bound to find references to it when you search for football Similarly for the other sports. So I really don't get your pint here. But if you insist we'll look it at the first 10 hits for football on google.
- NFL.com - American football (not surprising seeing at most of the web is US)
- FIFA - Ok 1 for me.
- football.com - American football again
- football365.com all the latest Premiership, Champions League and Uefa Cup news - 2 for me
- The Football Association = 3 for me
- www.ncaafootball.net American football again
- Guardian Unlimited Football - 4 for me
- Canadian Football League
- footballasia.com - All Football All Asia - 5 for me
- Australian Football League - Aussie rules
So that's 5 out of 10 of the top 10 hits for what you like to call soccer.
- Mintguy 21:20 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)
- Most of the people who have contributed here agree that giving ownership of the disputed term 'football' to association football is not on. What we have to find is an alternative description. Personally, though 'Association football' is the technically correct term it is rarely used so unless we cannot find something better, I'd leave it to one side. One of the most common terms used is soccer. Claims by Mintguy that it is slang is wrong. According to the Oxford english dictionary, (and I quote again, as Mintguy ignored it the first time) soccer / noun Association Football. That is from a British dictionary that does not include slang. So what word does it use: soccer. Pure and simple. A word used in the US. In Ireland. In Britain (yes it does, Mintguy - I went through the weekend British tabloids last night. It featured in all but one.) Contrary to what has been said, it is sometimes used in Europe. It has been used to me by Belgian and German friends (we were speaking english at the time, so many they don't use it speaking in their native language, but they sure as hell used it speaking english. - actually, just remembered, Klaus began discussing 'soccer' with another guy at the bar in german, so it obviously is used there too. Many not as widespread as in the US, Ireland (+ UK) but it is used.
- For Soccer - You and Mav and Tokerboy and Tannin. Against the word Soccer we've got Me, Stephen Gilbert, Dhum Dhum, WojPob. That looks like a draw to me. How is that bost people are against? -- later edit.... I forgot about the Anome. So it's 5 vs 4 for for not using the word soccer.
- Slight misrepresentation here. I'm not for "soccer". I guess if I was naming the page myself I'd probably use "soccer" because a lot of people don't know what "association football" is, or maybe use I'd "association football" with a redir from "soccer" because it's the formally correct name. Or "footcall (association)" - whatever. But I don't care what it gets called, so long as it's not "football" Tannin
- Claims that the word is slang - It is slang. I've got the Cassell encyclopaedia/dictionary open before me and it lists soccer as a colloquilism.
- Tabloids - You looked at the Irish edition of these tabloids I take it?
- Europeans - Dhum Dhum, WojPob both say they never use the word soccer, only to accomodate American guest someone said (apologies to whoever it was).
- Mintguy 21:20 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)
PS: I've just gone through some official 'football (ie association football' websites. And yes, they interchangably call it soccer. The FAI website mentions soccer. Oh, and in 1978 when Pope John Paul I was being inaugurated, his inauguration was held on the morning because, according to an official press release, he didn't want an afternoon ceremony to 'interrupt Italian soccer coverage'. (The Vatican's words, not mine!) JTD 19:28 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)
- British and Irish newspapers. JTD 22:21 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)
- Football (soccer) seems like a good choice to me. It neatly sidesteps the appearance of American bias, allows the use of "football" in the title without having to resort to "association football" (which is confusing to people like me who have never heard the term before), and lets us put a disambiguation page to take care of the mess that is currently at football. -- Stephen Gilbert
- Even if I don't like the word "soccer", I think Football (soccer) is probably the best solution. It suits me because of the reasons mentioned above and it should be clear for everyone what the article is about. D.D. 20:43 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)
- Folks, it looks like we have reached a workable compromise -- and without a single name being thrown! Maybe this is because football involves less throwing than, say, basketball? --Uncle Ed
I know when I've lost an argument. All I can say is that I'm bitterly disappointed. Mintguy
I think it is the best solution is to use [Football (soccer)]. It means that the majority of people who, as Mintguy states, take football to to mean 'association football', will immediately recognise the site. The many others who know it as 'soccer' with recognise it too. It struct me, thinking about it, that soccer seems to be prevalent in those states where 'football' means something else Ireland where it means gaelic football; Australia where it means Australian Rules football, the US, where it means American football. Add to that Britain, where while the word soccer may originally have been a nickname like 'rugger' as the OED shows it is now an accepted noun, and it appears in Europe where people perhaps when using english use the word. And those who use 'football' to mean another sport will recognise the page So a combination of both seems the best solution. So can I take it that we have clear agreement on the move? Does anyone have any problem with the move? JTD
- I would like to see what Mintguy has for the history he is working on first. Until then we can turn Football (soccer) into a redirect to Football and change all the links meaning to go to soccer into [[Football (soccer) | ]]. --mav
Hm. Football (soccer) looks good to me. It is unambiguous, you can use the pipe trick and it is short. --mav 22:23 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)