Wikipedia

Talk:Jews

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Zain engineer (talk | contribs) at 22:08, 29 November 2004 (→Jews a majority in Israel: last arguments). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Learn more about this page

Older discussions may be found here:

The list of famous Jews...

... in this article is once again getting terribly long. There is a separate, more comprehensive list elsewhere. The list here should include only people who are internationally famous and whose Jewishness is somehow significant.

I would suggest removing:

In preference to Douglas and Seinfeld, I'd consider Woody Allen, as emphatically Jewish as Seinfeld and as internationally famous as Douglas.

I would also suggest that the list, which is woefully short on women, might include Anne Frank, whose fame is strongly related to the fact of her being Jewish.

I would also consider adding Ludwig Wittgenstein, arguably the most important pholosopher or the 20th century. Certainly he ought to be more important than Isaac Levitan. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:53, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)

O.K., just so I'm sure, what criteria do you think should be used for inclusion here? Jayjg 03:51, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Jmabel, the point of these names was to give some examples of ethnic Jews in our times that are key historical figures, they needn't be famous for doing something Jewish, altho some of them did participate in Jewish life. But I agre that some names must go, as there are those "lists" of Jews by country now. IZAK 15:18, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, if that's the case, then Feynman and Teller certainly make the cut, but I'd still trade the whole rest of this list for Woody Allen, Anne Frank, and Ludwig Wittgenstein. Any list like this is going to be controversial.
As for criteria: I would assume a combination of general fame and that their Jewishness had at least some signficance in their life.
Further thought: maybe drop both Sandy Weill and Andrew Grove in favor of the much more internationally famous George Soros?
It looks like IZAK has already edited without waiting for a consensus here, so I will do the same. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:57, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)

Falling between two stools

Our current intro says, in part:

Ethnic Jews include both so-called "observant Jews," meaning those who practice the Biblical and Rabbinic laws, known as the halakha, and so-called "secular Jews," those who, while not practicing Judaism as a religion, still identify themselves as Jews in a cultural or ethnic sense.

This sets up a dichotomy that leaves out Reform Judaism and, arguably, some Conservative Jews as well. Reform Judaism generally rejects the bulk of halakha; Conservative Judiasm accepts it only in part. However, neither would necessarily consider themselves "secular", and they certainly would describe themselves as "practicing Judaism as a religion". -- Jmabel | Talk 00:04, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)

You're right, the language is awkward, and definitely tends to leave out Reform, though I think you might get an argument from some Conservative Jews about them accepting halakha "only in part". How about:

Ethnic Jews include both so-called "religious Jews," meaning those who practice Judaism, and so-called "secular Jews," those who, while not practicing Judaism as a religion, still identify themselves as Jews in a cultural or ethnic sense.

I think this neatly gets around the whole issue of defining Judaism, halakha, etc., since the Judaism article will do that for us. And as a bonus, the sentence actually makes more sense that way. I suspect that it probably looked something like that once upon a time, until someone felt a need to insert something about halakha in the article. Jayjg 03:56, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm happy with this. I'll edit accordingly. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:37, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)

  • I second that. The original version would also have left out all Non-Rabbinical Jews who observe the Biblical laws, but do not observe the Rabbinic Traditions.--Josiah 00:56, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Deleted Zionist Propaganda

Deleted "as they view it as their only true home in a world rife with Anti-Semitism rooted in a long history of anti-Semitism and hostile to the Jewish people." and added fact that immigration has slowed and many Jews have left Israel due to economic pressure and disillusionment with the right-wing militarist policies and ongoing conflict. --Alberuni 17:23, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I certainly concur with the deletion. I'm not sure that the addition is any less POV. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:09, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)
It wasn't intended to be. Jayjg 21:21, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I didn't use the term "right-wing" in the article. My language was 100% NPOV. If you have an issue with the language used, raise it now. And your snide remark violates Wikipedia policy of assuming good faith. Keep your discussions in Talk about the content of the article not about the editors. --Alberuni 22:00, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
LOL! Jayjg 22:06, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Alberuni, you have absolutely no groud to stand on when it comes to assuming good faith. You are known to be one of the most common violators of this rule.--Josiah 02:13, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Haha, if you assume bad faith on my part, I guess we are all hypocrites then. --Alberuni 02:37, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Reform Judaism

I thought that Reform Judaism came about in the 19th century following the teachings of rabbis like Samuel Holdheim and Isaac Mayer Wise. I'm not an adherant to this particular strain of Judaism so I may have my facts wrong, could someone please clarify. The article suggests that it emerged in the late 20th century, along with Reconstitutionist Judaism, which I'm sure is not right. Rje 04:05, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Looks like the result of some sloppy editing. I'll do a minimal fix, others may want to work on this further. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:55, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for your help. Rje

Protection

Hi, I just wanted to let y'all know that I protected the page following the recent onslaught of vandals. -- Schnee 21:40, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've blocked several of them; I'm investigating now. -- The Anome 21:44, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
Thanks. -- Schnee 21:49, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thanks - just to let you know, my last revert was to the 20:14, 9 Nov 2004 by Jmabel. As far as I can tell that was the most recent non-vandalized pages. Most of the other reverts had "PENIS" in the text as well -- Jwinters | Talk 21:45, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
No problem, you're welcome. As for the page's contents, it's currently identical to Jmabel's version from November 8, 7:01 UTC, except for the "vprotected" tag. (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Jew&oldid=7214154 ). So I guess it's clean; feel free to check, though. ^_~ -- Schnee 21:49, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The IPs appear unrelated, although some are Cox customers. Guesses: either co-ordinated attacks by a group of people, or someone using a set of open proxies. -- The Anome 21:50, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
Considering they're all ISP customer addresses (i.e., dial-up or broadband), I'd think it's probably a group of people acting coordinatedly. -- Schnee 22:03, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've unprotected the page now. Please reprotect if the vandalism resumes. -- The Anome 07:06, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

Remember that it is the serpents of kingdom of israel that edit wikipedia, or their goyim servants. There is an army of scurrying zionist Jews reading and editing everything here to make sure their relgion and their nation of israel is always championed and nothing negative, even if fair, is said about them. Take everything that Wikipedia promotes as 'established fact' with a giant pinch of salt, as more often than not it it just the ranting of prozionist israeli's or those that follow the faith of judaism. I have also noted that a lot of the vandalism of the site and subsequent locking of the threads occurs after someone attempts to legitimately edit misinformation of propaganda on the encyclopedia entry. As soon as this is noted by certain editors, then an anonymous 'hacker' will come along and take the whole entry down or replace it with insults, thus justifying the editor/admin blocking the article and then replacing the original valid edits with their 'idea of the truth'. This is the same tactic that certain unscrupulous individials do in real life situations. An example being jews staging anti semitic attacks on themselves or on synagogues to try and keep the myth of antisemitism ticking over, or so they can continue to promote the idea they are 'socities victims' in the public mindset. It is also done so they can justify their obsession with promoting themselves at the expense of all others.

Wow. You sure are paranoid, aren't you? -- Schnee 15:46, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Whew. That's really quite an ... unusual worldview. -- The Anome 15:59, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
Sadly, it's not as unusual as one would hope. Jayjg 15:28, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Off-topic

Excised text:

This is off topic, but this entry does not use the word "Jew" enough. The new Microsoft search tool is replicating the problem that Google had and now is showing (see http://beta.search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=jew&FORM=QBHP ) an anti-Semitic site on top when people search for Jew. It appears that MS is looking more closely at the content of the page (if it contains the word Jew more then other pages) as well as links to it. People have done a great job linking to this page with the word "Jew", but this page needs more references to Jew.

Removed from the article, unprofessional and a questionable form of search engine optimisation in any case. -- Tim Starling 15:21, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

The point of the off topic entry was that it was going to be removed, but hopefully it would encourage people to use the topic in the body more often. To think that Wikipedia is somehow removed from "questionable form of search engine optimisation in any case" is naive. The only reason this page gets so much traffic is because of that optimisation.

Huh? Reform different than Liberal????

One section of the article says: "Progressive Judaism (an organization to which both Reconstructionist Judaism and U.S. Reform Judaism belong) accepts bilineal descent; notably, the Reform movement in the UK does not, while the Liberal movement in the same country does."

I was under the impression that outside of America, Liberal Judaism = Reform Judaism. Did I miss something?--Josiah 02:48, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

See this: [1]. Jayjg 17:55, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The document seems to affirm what Josiah thought and what we all know. Gidonb 20:07, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thanks Jayjg, but doesn't make more sense to say that some Reform Jews accept Bilineal Descent, and others don't? (Sorta like Polygamy - Askhenazim generally view it as forbidden because of R. Gershom's edict, whereas other Jews do not)--Josiah 21:06, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think the difference is that in the U.K. there are two movements, one called Liberal, and one called Reform, and the U.K. Reform movement still insists on matrilineal descent whereas the Liberal movement follows the U.S. Reform view. Jayjg 23:21, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Yes, but they are still both "Reform" Judaism, just like Satmar and Chabad are both part of "Orthodox" Judaism despite their differences.Josiah 00:54, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Does the Liberal movement still consider itself part of the Reform movement? I get the impression it doesn't, and considers itself its own entity (say like Reconstructionist), but I could be wrong. Jayjg 03:41, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think one could say, very roughly, that the UK Liberal movement is to the UK Reform movement what the US Reconstructionist movement is to the UK Conservative movement. The UK Reform movement is in many ways actually closer to US Conservative than to US Reform. -- Olve 18:47, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Chile

Does anyone know if the anonymous, uncited, and uncommented addition of "Chile: 30,000 (est.)" is correct? Sounds likely enough, but we've had so much vandalism on this page I begin to doubt anything anonymous and uncited. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:28, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)

Jews a majority in Israel

Zain Engineer, Palestinians worldwide are not living in Israel, and Jews are a majority in Israel. Jayjg 19:19, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

First even counting legal Palestenian living in gaza strip, west bank and 'israel' make almost as many palestenians as jews, in Israeli control land there are illegal palestenians (not having israeli approved identity cards) living in Jerusalem and other cities if these currently living in Israeli controled areas are counted there are almost as many palesteians as Jews then if you add other minorities like christians, Jewish Majority will be very difficult to prove. and Taking Palestinian refugee in account eliminates majority by all statistics.
What I need to say that majority is debateable (even if not to count refugees) and after counting it becomes impossible. We should tell the facts as they are from NPOV So it is more acceptable with people of different opions so that's why I added worldwide so if some body dont thing palestenians should be added he will take jews as majority and if some body wants to think Palestenians should be counted he will take as minority. So let's put facts on Wikipedia not opinions and Let readers make opionions by them selfs.
Exact statistics[2] are
Segment Population
Jews in Israeel according to this Page   5.2 Million
Total Population of Palestenians World Wide 9.6 Million
Percentage Living in Palestenian Authority  3.7 Million (38%)
Total Population of Israel (Wikipedia)  6.8 Million
Non-Jews Living in Israel Excluding PA 1.6 Million (6.8-5.2)
Total Non-Jew Population in Israel and PA 5.3 Million
Non Jew population can be further increased if Illegal Palestenians are counted in Jerusalem and other cities.
And if refugees are counted Majority becomes out of question.
Zain 21:22, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hang on Zain - Israel means "lands officially annexed by Israel or taken in 1948", not "lands controlled by Israel which it hasn't annexed precisely because it doesn't want a majority Palestinian population." No reason to endorse any more Israeli expansionism than we absolutely have to... Now if you said "in the region of Palestine, that would be a different matter. - Mustafaa 00:30, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think we have to be consistent we have to decide either population of occupied lands are part of Israel or Not. If they are, Majority should either be removed or at least have foot note like I mentioned earlier. The reason for which I see serious inconsistency is following:
When Jewish Majority is considered population of PA areas are not considered but when population of Jews in Israel is considered population of Jews in Occupied land is counted!!!!
This is ridicules
According to CIA World Fact Book [3] and I quote
"There are about 187,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank and fewer than 177,000 in East Jerusalem (July 2004 est.)"
So in the article where Jew Population is mentioned we should reduce the population in Israel by about 400,000 (To also count for Jews in other occupied cities). And Make a separate entity for Jews in Occupied Lands (which will be come fourth largest after Palestine, America, and France(600,000) more then in UK Or Canada).
We can't have it both ways.
And till we settle this issue, that is chose one of these ways either to Remove the Jewish Majority statement or Reduce the Population of Jews in Israel and Add a separate Entry of Population Entry for occupied Lands (which is very :significant Number), we should add arguably or disputably with that statement.
Zain 09:58, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Zain, while I understand what you are trying to do, this is politicization of an article that does not need to be politicized. The number of Jews in a country is defined by the number of Jews who are citizens of that country. There are 5.2 million Jews who are citizens of Israel, out of a population of 6.8 million, and about 1 million citizens are Israeli Arabs. I understand that you want to make a point about the government of Israel and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but this article does not need to be the place to do it -- there are plenty of other articles focusing on the conflict, or on Israel. From all legal and international law perspectives, Israel is a majority Jewish state, some of whose citizens live in territories not recognized as part of Israel (and some of whom live in New York, or London, or Paris). For a non-political article on Jews, we do not need to be drawn into a wider debate. I will change to "majority of the citizens" to avoid this confusion. Does this take care of the problem? --Goodoldpolonius2 19:18, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think now I should put purposed changes first to talk page then to main page. So here are the arguments I will like to give
First politicizing an article is when I am expressing opinion instead of 'fact'. Or may be disagreeing to any ‘fact’ due to my political views. So for that let me give you a review of what i have changed first the ‘fact’ which was given in the article was
Israel is the only country in which Jews form a majority of the population
Now as you can see in the context of the arguments backed by statistics which I have presented earlier in the talk that the statement was totally wrong. but instead of changing the text aggressively into something stupid like that ‘Jews don’t even make a majority in the country they illegally occupied and claim to be Jewish’ I didn’t even tried to put ‘my’ ‘fact’ that was that simply to say that ‘they don’t make a majority in Israel'. I simply wrote ‘they arguably make a majority’ this statement in essence means that they ‘Do’ make a majority (despite what ‘I’ ‘saw’ as ‘ground reality’). I just mentioned that it might be disagreed by some people. (which is very solid fact that it can be easily disagreed and even totally denied). And then I added in parenthesis the reason for which some might disagree and even that with adding ‘worldwide’ Palestinians so its upto reader to decide how he takes it.
Similarly my other Edits were backed by statistics which I put on Talk page, and interestingly (and somewhat expected by me) no body disagreed with the ‘facts’ I put rather it was ‘definition’ of ‘majority of Jews’ which was changed every time. ( which I believe had motivated by the facts that most on the page wanted to show Jewish majority in Israel no matter what ‘definition’ it takes).
I believe its logically impossible to justify excluding Palestinians living in PA areas from population of Israel but adding the jews living in the area to population at the same time.
The point which I wanted to make from all this is that, differences were based on ‘facts’ rather then ‘political opinions’. Reason for which I wrote all the ‘facts’ in quotes is that when ‘facts’ tend to oppose ‘political opinions’ of any group they regard those ‘facts’ as mere ‘political opinions’.
Now about the citizenship definition which you have currently purposed as I quote you
” Israel is a majority Jewish state, some of whose citizens live in territories not recognized as part of Israel (and some of whom live in New York, or London, or Paris)”
So the fact is that citizens need not to be resident in the state. So it means that Palestinian refugees not living in Israel or Palestinian Authority, their residence or location has nothing to do with their citizenship! What matter is do you see them as ‘Legal’ citizens of the land or not. Of course this is a political opinion which will vary significant from reader to reader without any consensus. And I will also like to quote one of my friend here who first reverted my changes I quote him
“ Zain Engineer, Palestinians worldwide are not living in Israel, and Jews are a majority in Israel. Jayjg 19:19, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)”
So the new objection being raised and 180 degrees opposite to the primary objection which was raised earlier. So I believe if it is such disputed thing let us just mention the word ‘arguable’ and Point to this talk Page, so every user can make his conclusion according to his/her ‘political views’
We should tell the reader about the ‘fact’ not the ‘political opinion’ of the Author of the article. And point out to the disagreements if any.
Thanks
Zain 12:59, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Zain, thanks for keeping this on the talk page. I do not think it is fair, however, to say "[the discussion is] motivated by the facts that most on the page wanted to show Jewish majority in Israel no matter what ‘definition’ it takes)." This is unfair. The fact is that, in an article on Jewish people, it is important to write that there is a Jewish state, and the majority of its citizens are Jews -- you started the various semantic wars about how to say this, presumably because you want to make a point about Palestinian, not Jewish populations. This has resulted in the article going from "population" to "residents" and now to "citizens;" not because anyone wants to fake a Jewish majority, but because Israel is accepted as a majority Jewish state, and you objected to other formulations, and the wiki tries to be accomodating to satisfying your viewpoint. I think you are pushing this too far, however:
I think there is misunderstanding I don't argue that the 'state' of Israel which according to the information on Wikipedia as far as Total area in square km' is concerned 'does not include' Gaza strip, or west bank . So according to CIA world fact book roughly 400,000 jewish population lives in west bank and gaza strip and other occupied areas. So when spread of jewish population in world is mentioned area wise, jewish population in PA is not mentioned?
If some body thinks that they shouldn't be mentioned bcoz that is part of israel, so if and only if, that is part of israel , There is no jewish population majority in israel and at best that majority is argueable.
I only object to resident population bcoz, when population spread is mentioned Jewish population in PA (if that is not part of Israel is ignored).
As far as citizenship argument goes please see below where citizen argument is given by another friend.
Zain 19:24, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
1. You are strecthing the definitions pretty hard for a political point. You actually quote the CIA Factbook in your argument, and the CIA World Factbook says of Israel's religious makeup: "Jewish 80.1%, Muslim 14.6% (mostly Sunni Muslim), Christian 2.1%, other 3.2% (1996 est.)" This is the way that all other encyclopedias describe Israel's population and it seems reasonable to use it here, since this article is in no way about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, so the nuances of the situation do not seem deeply relevant.
2. Even if you somehow count the West Bank and Gaza as part of Israel (which it isn't nor do most people think it should be), the population would still be majority Jewish (though not for long). From a critical article on Israel's demography in the New York Review of Books in October 2003: "Israel can continue to occupy "Samaria," "Judea," and Gaza, whose Arab population—added to that of present-day Israel—will become the demographic majority within five to eight years." Thus, the words "population," "resident," or "citizen" are all correct.
3. If you do not count the West Bank and Gaza as part of Israel (correct under both Israeli and international law). Then Israel is clearly majority Jewish, whether you use the word "population," "resident," or "citizen."
I would like to keep this article out of the fights about the Middle East conflicts, which is where your discussions really should go.--Goodoldpolonius2 16:26, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Your Point (1) I totally agree with you on population by religion in israel as given by CIA world fact book. but if CIA world fact book is right on Population of israel it is also correct on jewish population of Palestenian Areas which are not mentioned in this article.
Plz I 'don't disagree' with jewish population majority in israel if israel excludes occupied areas. And I 'don't disagree' with Total jewish population mentioned in the article if those areas are included. But when these two opposite and contradicting things are applied simultaneously this is simply wrong. we can't cut it out of israel for one set of statistics and put it again in for another set of statistics. The only factual method of making majority without mentioning jewish population in occupied areas is the use of citizenship which make jewish citizen majority in Israel and can ignore the jewish population in occupied lands by declaring it as a part of Israel (which it self is very very argueable). But still I am not starting arguing on that yet. But when citizenship definition is used it opens the Pandora's box of who is entitled to live in Israel which is ofcourse a 'political opinion'. So it is argueable at best.
Zain 19:24, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC) (Argument continue to answer another friend please read below)
Side note: on Palestine I Quote
It is recognized that all refugees have a right to return home. The United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194 (December 1948) Paragraph 1, states:
"Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for the loss or damage to property..."
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "every person has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country."
In the negotiations between the Palestinian Authority and the Israeli government, both parties signed an agreement saying that financial compensation was a necessary and legitimate way of dealing with many of the refugees from both sides.
Zain 13:16, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Palestinians worldwide are not citizens of Israel, and the vast majority of them have never lived in Israel. The current formulation is accurate, and does not need a digression into an argument about the politics of Arab-Israel conflict, and your opinions about documents which are irrelevant in International Law like the UNGA resolutions and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and which in any event do not apply to 98% of Palestinians. Jayjg 14:54, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It is absolutely possible that UNGA resolutions and Universal Declaration of human Rights are totally irrelevant for you, same as it is possible for many muslims, about 1000 times more then jewish population, consider Israel independence declaration irrelevant. but still these both are point of views and at best they can be called debatable or arguable. To exercise NPOV about these differences we should use the same approach as used in israel-muslim conflict. That is to tell the facts and let user draw the conclusions. and if there are any differences they point to talk pages. Point which I tried to made was not to say that, there is no jewish majority is israel or jewish population exists in Palestinian areas or refuges have right and beomes citizen or not even occupied areas are not part of israel what I mentioned is that it is argueable (which is even a lighter word then debatable). We should tell the readers that it is arguable if not disputed or False. and point to the talk pages.
Israel-Muslim Conflict and Majority you are right about not to drag this issue into this article as much as possible. But I'll like to Quote (I think Einstein) that
Make things as simple as possible but not simpler.
The core of the conflict between these nations is how much land Israel has its right on (If any). And after refugee problem how much right these refugees have to return. So there is no disagreement on how many jews live where But for declaring a Majority you have to define an area count Jewish Population and non-jewish population and compare them. Dilemma of Jewish majority is that, when you use ‘population’ definition counting is simple but defining area becomes problematic choosing occupied areas as part of israel won't make a population majority and choosing otherwise will make a majority but will lead a very big jewish population in PA which needs to be mentioned. Then one may seek to use citizenship as it ignores the area and concentrates on People related to the land. In this case too a Pandora's Box from the conflict comes into play which is, who is more related to the land and who is more entitled to be called 'citizen' of the land.
So the simplest method, is to mention arguable and for those who suggest to even simpler method is to ignore it I'll quote him again
Make things as simple as possible but not simpler.
with regards
Zain 19:24, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Side note: the use of "Jew" as an adjective (e.g. "Jew population") is generally considered offensive. It should be "Jewish population". I'm guessing that this was an oversight in Zain's comment above, so no offense taken; just thought I'd note it in case anyone might look at this and think it was appropriate usage. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:25, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)

Sorry I was not aware of it. But I feel quite strange why it is (I have never met any jew in person in my life). Can U tell me why? point to any website which explains (if you know any whch explains this)
Zain 13:16, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
From the American Heritage Dictionary - "Usage Note: It is widely recognized that the attributive use of the noun Jew, in phrases such as Jew lawyer or Jew ethics, is both vulgar and highly offensive. In such contexts Jewish is the only acceptable possibility. Some people, however, have become so wary of this construction that they have extended the stigma to any use of Jew as a noun, a practice that carries risks of its own. In a sentence such as There are now several Jews on the council, which is unobjectionable, the substitution of a circumlocution like Jewish people or persons of Jewish background may in itself cause offense for seeming to imply that Jew has a negative connotation when used as a noun." Jayjg

14:54, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Conclusions (For those who want to skip to the end)

"I think we have to be consistent we have to decide either population of occupied lands are part of Israel or Not" is a fair objection to the original wording; the recently suggested solution of substituting "citizens of Israel", irrespective of where they live, seems to solve that. - Mustafaa 16:52, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree with making it citizens of Israel - that is why I made that change originally. Citizen is unambigious and binary - you either are or are not a citizen of Israel. Zain, you may argue over who ought to be a citizen of which country, or what a final settlement should look like, but there is no ambiguity or POV bias in pointing out that there are 5.3 million Jewish Israeli citizens, an 80% majority among the citizens of Israel. Also, as I pointed out in the above section, it would have also been correct to use the terms "residents" or even "population," regardless of whether you accept the international definition of Israel (1967 borders) or any other definition, since Jews are still in majority in the combined population of Israel plus the West Bank and Gaza, but I don't think there is any need to get into semantics, since it is irrelevant to the entry for "Jews" and the existing compromise seems fine. In short, I am happy, and Mustafaa seems happy with it - can we close this out? --Goodoldpolonius2 20:35, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well I think now we have reduce (although not eliminated) the differences (I think that initial debate of having majority population and not mentioning Jewish population in PA at the same time has gone for good) thing which is left is who is 'legal citizen' which roots into the question of who will decide which 'legal body' will decide 'citizenship' so we can declare a clear citizen majority of jewish population in Israel. Problem is that Israel it self as a 'legal body' is not recognizes by many countries and those coutnries which recognize it, right of Palestinian refugees to return is big number (if not the majority). Although I personally don't think many of these countries will go into small details like citizenship for statistics but if we only consider countries which don't recognize as a 'legal body' which can issue 'citizenship' the majority of jewish citizen in Israel will still be at least arguable. So we at best can say that citizenship of Israelis is disputed equivalently citizenship of Palestinian refugees is disputed. Although for other countries it is not the problem, you can easily say without any major debate that who is citizen (at least upto the level where it seriously impacts statistics). Let's say Nazis Capture France and expel many French and declares that all French population are 'non-citizens'. Then assigning 'citizenship' to Hitler alone will make Germans 'majority citizens' of France!. I am not saying that Jewish population is same in israel as Nazis in France I mean that mere occupation of land is not a full justification to declare 'citizenship' you have to consider other factors too of course this page is not to decide who is 'legal authority' to decide citizenship. And neither I mean that we should apply same principle every where that whoever claims citizenship of a land/country makes citizenship disputed. What I mean that in case of israel citizenship is highly disputed bcoz things related to ownership and citizenship in this land are major dispute through out the world. We here can not resolve these disputes but at minimum we can say it is disputed. If some people say that citizenship problem is not worth mentioning a single word (that is 'arguable') I'll like them to give the example of the article King of Jerusalem in which it is stated that even currently there are people who proclaim to be King of Jerusalem. If some body with such vague arguments can claim to be King of the Land and it is worth mentioning so much. Why not 9.5 million People with a lot batter arguments and a lot more global acceptance can worth a single word! (arguable that is) for some of readers all those arguments might not be acceptable as true but at least for many they will prove to be enough to call it argueable to at least the level worth a single word (that is 'argueable') with regards

Zain 23:46, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Side Note: ‘arguable’ ,’disputable’, ‘debatable’ does not mean false it merely means that number of people who disagree with this are not negligible, for instance even 1% of Muslim population thinks that Israeli government has no right to decide citizenship. It makes same (if not more) then population of all jews in the world. So such population is not negligible and if they disagree it should be at least called arguable or disputed. And of course in reality there are a loot more Muslims who will disagree with that, even with in the Muslim countries which recognize Israel officially Majority Muslim population disagree with Israeli right to give citizenship, then there are Non-Muslims who will disagree with Israeli right to give citizenship as I said above in this page we can’t resolve it (if a very big portion of humanity has serious differences over it) neither this page has any objective to decide whether Palestinians refugees are any better citizens then jewish population. At best we can say it is arguable.
Zain 00:38, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Israel, like all other countries, decides who is or isn't a citizen of that country. There is no-one claiming that all 9 million Palestinians are citizens of Israel; if you can find someone making such a claim, please provide the evidence. The fact that a small number of Arab countries don't recognize Israel is particularly irrelevant to who is a citizen of Israel; if a country says Israel doesn't exist, then it certainly can't think that Palestinians are citizens of that non-existent entity. Jayjg 04:26, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Zain, I really do think you are belaboring this point, and we really should move on. There exists a nation called Israel, a nation that is part of the United Nations, GATT, WTO, the Olympics (all with Arab states as well). It issues money that is traded on international currency markets. You may think Israel does not have a right to exist, but as a fact it does actually exist, which is enough to let Israel define its citizens for the purpose of an article on Jews and where they live. Please note that this article does not say that all 13-16 million Jews in the world are citizens of Israel, even though they may be entitled to such citizenship under Israeli law -- such a statement would be factually incorrect. In the same way, it really seems incorrect (especially as this article is about Jews, not debates over the Partition of Palestine, etc.) to state that some non-citizens of Israel might want citizenship in a country that would replace Israel; whether or not you or anyone else think that cause is just. Put it this way - articles about Palestinians would say that 1 million are citizens of Israel, X number are citizens of Jordan, X number are resident in the West Bank, Gaza, and Lebanon with refugee status pending resolution of the conflict while X number are citizens of the US, France, Germany, etc -- they would never say that they are all Israeli citizens. There are good places to engage in debate, over the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but we do not need to bring an article about Jews into the fray as well, please! At one point, you accused people of torturing definitions to make a Jewish majority in the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel (a point I countered with the evidence above) -- you are now really doing the same to deny that Israel does not have the right to declare who its citizens are. The majority of wikki folks so far seem okay with this, can we move to other points? --Goodoldpolonius2 06:04, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Final Arguments

Well I was wondering should I give my approach “Talk first and Edit Later” another try. Or should I leave accepting that on wikipedia you cannot “outargue”, if you are outnumbered, even if our arguments make sense ( I am not saying that Israel has no right to decide its citizens merely that it is disputed). Then I though may be as factual arguments helped end the concept of having “Jewish Population majority” and “No Jewish Population in PA” ”Simultaneously”, may be the concept that Israel’s right to assign “citizenship” to 13-18 million Jews (if it desires) and stripping Palestinians of the same right whether they live in Israeli controlled areas or refugees, simultaneously, is an undoubted fact, can also be negated. So I in ‘good faith’ trying ‘yet’ again. First I should reply to the questions raised by my friends above to my proposal. Then I should give comprehensive points in a systematic manner to support my case. First here are answers to the questions raised, in Question to answer fashion:

"small number of Arab countries don't recognize Israel"

It is not limited to small number of Arab countries for example Pakistan (a non-Arab country) also doesn’t recognize Israel ‘legal rights’, including its right to declare citizens. And Pakistan’s Muslim population, alone makes ’10 times more Muslims then All jews in entire world’, who disagree with this Israeli ‘legal right’. Here I don’t want to make a list of the countries who recognize or who don’t recognize Israel’s ‘Legal authorities’ like deciding citizenship. Or saying that as Muslims outnumber Jews by 1-100 ratio their, So opinion should be written 100 times more then opinion of Jews in all articles regardless of whether they are facts or not. What I want to say is that Israel ‘Legal authority’ to assign ‘citizenship’, although might not be valid ,but at very least arguable. And worth mentioning a single word that is ‘arguable’.

“if a country says Israel doesn't exist”

Concept that muslims say israel ‘doesn’t exist’ is wrong. What they disagree with is the, Israeli ‘legal authority’ to occupy ‘Palestinian land’, detaining people and among others ‘legal aurhority’ to declare ‘citizenship’. And to have a legitimate ‘authority’ to declare ‘citizenship’ is not a ‘fact’ it is just an opinion which in this case is disputed or arguable so it is worth mentioning a single word ‘arguable’.

“this article is about Jews, not debates over the Partition of Palestine, etc”

I didn’t dispute any thing about Jews but only disputed when there is no mention of ‘jewish population in PA’ and declaring all Muslims living in those areas as non-citizens simultaneously . I don’t say we should write that Israel has no right on declaring Jews around the world as citizens (if it does) . I mean that, “Israel having right to declare Jews around the world as citizens (if it does)”, ‘there is no need of mentioning Jewish Population in PA in this article but it should be shown as Jewish population in Israel’ and ‘Israel right to declare such a big group of people non-citizens living in the same area, whose jewish population doesn’t require to be mentioned separately in this article but should be shown as population of israel’ doing all of this simultaneously if not incorrect it at very least ‘arguable’ or ‘disputeable’.

What I am asking for is to add a single word ‘arguably’ to that statement.

Although this article shouldn’t be place for holding debate over Israeli-Muslim conflict. But if for statistical reasons we have to count the Jewish population in ‘Israel’ for ‘jewish population majority in Israel’ Or ‘Jewish citizen majority in Israel’ and ‘To decide whether some of the population resides in Israel or PA’, deciding ‘Israel area’ and ‘Israel right to grant citizenship’ is inevitable So to avoid getting ourselves into these kind of disputes we should simply add a foot note or comment or any thing which is disputed. For details plz see my argument above of "Muslim Israel Conflict" Now Let me quote some other statements which were given against me.

”Israel, like all other countries, decides who is or isn't a citizen of that country”

”but as a fact it does actually exist, which is enough to let Israel define its citizens”

But there is yet very important statement see below

“All 13-16 million Jews in the world are citizens of Israel, even though they may be entitled to such citizenship under Israeli law -- such a statement would be factually incorrect”

This statement is Key to my case about citizenship is “arguable” as my friend pointed out that, if israel goverment or israel Law declares some body ‘citizen’ of Israel it can still be ‘factually incorrect’ what I have argued is much lesser then this. I want to say that if Israel government or Israel Law declares some body ‘citizen’ of Israel that is ‘factually arguable’ (even lighter word then ‘disputable’ let alone the ‘factually incorrect’ wording).

Now Let me put my points in a systematic way.

What I am not asking for here

Declare that: Israel doesn’t exist. Jews don’t live in Israel, Jewish Population in Israel shouldn’t be counted, Jewish population in PA should be mentioned under all conditions, Israel ‘authority’ to declare ‘citizenship’ is not acceptable to a majority.

What I disagree with

I disagree with, “not mentioning jewish population in PA” and “declaring jewish ‘citizen majority’ in Israel simultaneously” is an ‘unarguable’ ‘fact’.

Why I disagree with

To accept both things simultateously undisputed. Logically all of the followings need to true simultaneously.

  1. Occupation of a land gives right to declares citizenship.
  2. PA is a part of Israel so there is no need of mentioning jewish population in those areas separately then Israel.
  3. Israel Law and government have ‘undisputed’ authority to declare citizenship. (which as I quote my friend can be ‘factually incorrect’ ” all 13-16 million Jews in the world are citizens of Israel, even though they may be entitled to such citizenship under Israeli law -- such a statement would be factually incorrect “
  4. Even if a sizeable numbers of humans on this planet disagree with something It is still not worth mentioning ‘arguable’, let alone the ‘disputable’ word with it.
  5. All of the above points are totally ‘undisputed’ and none of above is worth mentioning ‘arguable’ or ‘disputable’.


so may be you disagree with point 1,2,3 or even 4 but taking all as ‘undisputed’ and not worth mentioning ‘argueable’ or ‘disputeable’ is not ‘factual’. What I suggest to resolve it

  1. Declare Israel jewish “population majority” and mention jewish population in PA seperate then Israel. ( May be even “resident Population majority” to avoid all possible future objections on the statement.)
  2. Dont’ Mention Jewish Population in PA separately but declare Israel a ‘Near jewish population majority” (or “resident Jewish Population Majority” to avoid future objections”)
  3. Declare Israel a jewish ‘citizen Majority’ and mention the word “arguable” with it Pointing to the talk Page.
  4. Don’t mention jewish population in PA seperately but use the statement like ‘Israel is the only country in the world where jewish population make ‘majority’ of the ‘government recognize citizens’” (some may like it to be occupant recognize citizens) .


Although I believe the last statement will cause the most heat from pro-Israel readers. And other statements might be less offending. So all of the four statements are acceptable for me. You might choose any of them.

Side Note: Places where ‘occupation authority’ is not recognize as the ‘legal authority’ is not limited to Israel alone. For me the most ridicules example of this is “Taiwan”. Taiwan for a long time was recognized by USA and many other countries as ‘True’ ‘Legal authority’ of china, which meant that Chinese communist government is merely an ‘occupantion authority’. What’s more funny for me is that Taiwan held china seat in U.N, only bcoz it was ‘TRUE’ ‘Legal Chinese government’ and Even had the VETO POWER bcoz it was ‘true Legal Chinese government’ China and the United Nations. And the phenomenon of distinction between ‘occupation authority’ and ‘legal authority’ is not just past. A recent example of this is Taliban ‘occupation’ of Afghanistan although they occupied 90% of the Afghanistan and arguably had a lot wider support then earlier occupations i.e. soviet but still they were not recognized as ‘legal authority’ even though lesser popular soviet were recognized as ‘legal authority’ and during Taliban era most of the world recognized “Burhan ud din Rubbani” (I bet most of you have never even heard of him) as ‘legal authority head’ his ‘government’ had legal rights including membership of U.N. and other international organizations. Although It is almost never possible to declare a clear ‘legal authority’ in case of major disputes, we should simply write ‘disputeable’ or at very least ‘arguable’ if such situation arise.

with regards
Zain 22:08, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Mizrahi Jewry

Mustafaa, I was wondering where you get your stastistics concerning Mizrahi Jews who fled their Arab homes.--Josiah 01:54, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Mustafa is right -- The International Federation of Jewish Refugees From Muslim-Arab Countries says "Some 900,000 Jews left Arab countries after 1948 and more than 600,000 went to Israel. They and their descendants now make up around half of Israel’s Jewish population. Today, fewer than 8,000 Jews remain in Arab countries; some states, such as Libya, were totally emptied of their Jewish populations."

Stats that I found from the Mellon Institute's Arab World Project that connects a number of US university's middle east studies departments here: "In fact, the Arab countries of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Yemen alone are estimated to have had a Jewish population of about 400,000 in the mid-1940s. Now there are only about 300 Jews remaining in Syria, and fewer still in Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Yemen.... 1947 Egyptian census listed 65,639 Jews, most of whom lived in Cairo, with a small group in Alexandria. Cairo, like Baghdad, also had a large indigenous Jewish population [no significant amount remain]... "

Goodoldpolonius2 08:20, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

TY - Josiah

Potential Reorg. of Article

This article feels really choppy, and I wanted to see if I could gather some support for some reshaping (keeping existing content). I am happy to do a lot of the work, but I don't want to start without discussion. My proposal is below.

I think we are pretty okay, although a little inelegant, through ethnic divisions and maybe even Jewish languages, and then things get strange. The migration piece is a good idea, but it is only part of a history. I would propose a short history of the Jews instead, explaining the nature of ancient Israel, the Diaspora, and the current world, we also should have a longer history section, discussed below. The famous Jews section should probably be moved towards the end, unless we really feel that it is a critical thing to list a Jew or two early on. Conversion to Judiasm doesn't seem to fit here at all, especially as we are dealing with the ethnic, not religious, aspects of Jewishness; I say cut it.

The section on ancient israelites and schisms feels like a part of the history of Jews, but there is no middle ages or modern history to compliment it - we just move into persecution. Perhaps we should put in a better summary of what the Jews were up to besides being persecuted during this time - like how Judiasm was shaped by its own internal efforts combined with the persecution of the outside world. A good rewrite of history is needed, as much is missing, and relatively small groups, like Karaite Judaism, get more airtime than the entire history of the Jews in Arab lands; or the movement of Jews from Spain to Eastern Europe; or the waves of expulsions in the middle ages. This brings us to persecution, which is an important topic, but one that is not clearly described within the context of Jewish history, instead there is a set of random oppressors of the Jews. Better to explain the nature of the persecution within a timeframe, and how persecution shaped Jewish identity, than to lump together modern Arab states with ancient Caliphates, and explain 1900 years of Christian persecution with a sentence or two.

I think the leadership section is fine at the end. World population, however, should be moved up to the begining, as it is a key question that anyone reading the article should know, and covers the major population centers of Jews today.

So, that's my proposal, a summary of which is below. Any thoughts? --Goodoldpolonius2 08:54, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Etymology -> keep
2 Who is a Jew? -> keep
3 Jewish cultural traits ->keep
4 Ethnic divisions -> keep
5 Jewish languages -> keep
6 Migrations -> change to "short history"
7 Famous Jews -> move to end
8 Conversion to Judaism -> subpoint of who is a jew
9 Ancient Israelites and Judeans -> combine with below into "longer history", move lower
10 Ancient schisms among the Jews -> see above
11 Persecution -> keep, but place in context of the short history section
12 Jewish leadership -> keep
13 World population -> move up above jewish languages
14 Decrease and growth -> include as part of world poplation
15 Related topics -> keep

Seriously, no thoughts on this? What is proper wikkiediquette here, how long before I give this a shot? (The community can always revert)--Goodoldpolonius2 07:12, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If the material on conversion is to be cut from this article it should be moved to an article of its own. (Also, I've taken the liberty of inserting breaks so your proposal will be more legible, hope that was OK, if not, revert it.) -- Jmabel | Talk 07:19, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the format help! There is already a full article on conversion, and more on conversion in the Judiasm article. Since converting makes less sense in a sense of Jews as a nation (naturalization? immigration?) this just seems unneeded here. --Goodoldpolonius2 07:35, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It does need at least some mention here, because under Jewish law the descendants of female converts are considered Jews, even if they become apostates. This particular relationship between religious conversion and ethnicity is highly unusual, possibly unique. Effectively, converting to Judaism also means becoming an adoptive member of the Jewish people or nation. That is why this material grew so lengthy here (including the somewhat different views held by some Reform Jews). I haven't looked at the article on conversion, but it would be important to have at least short section on conversion in this article. The top of the section should probably be a See main article... note, and any material not in that main article should be merged; also, we should have discussion here at least of the way conversion interplays with the notion of ethnicity. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:32, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)
Good points, and we can keep them in the article, heck, I don't want to mess with any language people worked hard on. I would then suggest that this becomes a subpoint under "Who is a Jew?" I have revised the proposal to reflect it. --Goodoldpolonius2 14:36, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Sorry, didn't notice this suggestion before. The usual convention is to put new material at the bottom of a Talk: page, not the top. I think your suggestions in general are quite good. Regarding the conversion issue, you might have a window of opportunity to get things done here. For a while we had a POV warrior insisting on the Orthodox view (and in particular reflecting his own situtation and status), more recently we had a POV warrior insisting that Jews weren't a people at all, merely a religious group, and that anyone who converted to another faith was no longer a Jew. However, right now things seem quiet enough to actually improve the article. Jayjg 16:07, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Okay, I reorganized. I cut no text, just moved things around and edited headers a little. I added missing sections on Jewish history after the Romans, but it is really, really light - please feel free to add to it. --Goodoldpolonius2 21:39, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jews&oldid=7967156"