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Talk:America's Army

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Propaganda

Face the truth and add an article about the propaganda in the game, which is probably the most important reason for the critism against the game and the game faced a lot of critism - which goes unmentioned here. All these superflous weapon and bullets should have a less priority than the propaganda since it's the propaganda why they're there: the game promises to be realistic so it can change the view of people on matters like of real life, like the army of the real life.

"Video Game Propaganda"

http://www-ugs.csusb.edu/honors/02/ResTravis.htm (from a Californian university) (a brilliant article, you should read through it completely)


"Your tax dollars at play U.S. Army gets into the gaming business. You're paying for it." http://money.cnn.com/2002/05/31/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/

(from CNN) (eg.: "[...]From a propaganda perspective, though, the Army has seemingly hit the jackpot. (And the Army readily admits the games are a propaganda device.[...]To deflect criticism, the Army development team has toned down the violence, earning a "T" rating by the Entertainment Software Ratings Board. (A "T" is on par with a "PG" rating for a movie. Games carrying that rating are meant for players ages 13 and older and may contain violent content, mild or strong language, and/or suggestive themes.) Kills in "Operations" are depicted with a puff of red, followed by the enemy falling to the ground. There are no pools of blood or dismemberment, both of which the game engine is more than capable of rendering.[...])


"Recruitment hard drive The US army is the world's biggest games developer, pumping billions into new software. Steve O'Hagan reports on the battle for young thumbs and minds" http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguide/features/story/0,,1242262,00.html

(from The Guardian, a famous British newspaper) "[...]Released in 2002, America's Army (www.americasarmy.com ) was given out at recruitment stations (which frequent US school playgrounds, like predatory ice cream vans) and put on the internet for free download. Essentially a playable piece of PC propaganda, America's Army saw 1.5m downloads in its first six months - the most successful game launch in history.[...]The US army is the biggest games developer at work today. It's channelling around $1.1bn a year of US taxpayers' money to a war chest for software development via its simulations arm (www.peostri.army.mil) and spent $50m setting up its very own LA-based dream factory, the Institute Of Creative Technologies, the Hollywood-linked high-tech research centre behind the Kubrickesquely named Full Spectrum Warrior.[...]These games may be ultra-realistic down to the calibre of the weapons, but when bullets hit flesh, people just crumple serenely in a heap. They're like Tom Clancy novels made into episodes of the A-Team. No blood. No exit wounds. No screams.[...]These two games are not the end of it.[...]US army has a shortfall in recruits, and it knows only young people are dumb enough to sign up - the average age of a US soldier is just 20[...]"

'America's Army' Targets Youth http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020902&s=hodes20020823 (from the newspaper "The Nation")

"[...]But there is a difference between realistic detail and actual reality, and as a depiction of Army life America's Army is, to say the least, misleading.[...]Players learn, in this army, that war is fun.[...]The "Go Army" button in "Operations" will generate thousands of clicks this year. The game is a good investment. Recruiting each individual soldier typically costs the army $15,000. If 400 new soldiers sign up via this web link, then America's Army will have paid for itself."


Army targets youth with video game http://www.notinourname.net/resources_links/video-game-7nov03.htm

"[...]I don't think people playing these games make a strong correlation between the game and real-world conflict, where real people are doing real important things in real places," says Rob Smith, editor of PC Gamer magazine and a history buff who loves tactical shooters.[...]" (don't forget that those from Gaming magazines know a lot about gaming culture) "[...]One payoff is showing up at the military academy at West Point, he added, where 19 percent of this year's freshman class said they had played " America's Army: Operations".[...]"

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Stop reviving the inbox. It doesn't even provide correct information because it wasn't the US Army who developed the game. It was the MOVES institute who did that provided by instruction by the US army. I even posted the official website of the developers which you deleted thoughtlessly. Also "multiplayer" is incorrect too because you can't play the game online without having played the Single player mode which means training. If you don't like the addition "propaganda" (which is worth mentioning since it's the only fact that made the game famous or rather infamous) and the cause for that game in the inbox, just write another article in the main text instead of deleting it. Besides, round-based team deathmatch IS the game mode of the game. Also I mentioned the correct number of players having played the game at the same time online having checked and compared the accurate details from www.aaotracker.com which saves the stats. The highest number ever had was 4859 which was their record and achieved on 31st May, 2004. When the authentication server is down (should be mentioned in the main article because it forces the user to be tracked) the number of players on the servers is zero. It's worth mentioning because only this number gives accurate information about the number of players. If you don't mention Counter-strike but Rainbow six, you must have misunderstood something because there are only little similarities of Americans army with Rainbow, unlike with CS. Similarities with CS(amongst others): round-based time-limited team-deathmatch in which you pause for the round when dead, in which you can win the round by either accomplishing the objectives or killing all the enemies, in which the terrorist fight the counter-terrorists, which was for free and popular, which was limited to carrying ONE big weapon and ONE pistol and some GRENADES, whose grenades can be SMOKE, EXPLOSION OR FLASHBANG, in which you have to shout a comment when you throw an explosive grenade with other teammembers alive (Fire in the hole!/Frag out!), in which you can chat to the team or to everyone, in which you can't chat when dead, in which you can chat certain audible orders to your teammembers, in which you can exchange your weapon+ammo with weapons+ammo that lie on the ground, in which you don't aim at the enemy automatically, in which you you're on foot, in which there are civilians which you can kill, in which you get punished for killing civilians, in which one team wins when the time is up and in which you hear a spoken comment when won or lost a round, ETC..

Furthermore the number of accounts is inaccurate. Check the main page of America's Army and you'll see 4.2 millions. It's also crucial to say that the number of accounts has nothing to do with the number of players. And as you can see even the newspapers mistook that for the number of players, as the articles for this game show. I also added the " " to make clear it's a name which is necessary. And you can't say " is hard at work trying to catch the cheaters off-guard with mass bannings". 1.it's your own opinion. you don't know if they're really working that hard 2.they don't use mass bannings to catch the cheaters off-guard. They write a script which banishs those who've certain other data than the usualy america's army player has on his hard disk. So I wrote: "tries to find and banish cheaters" which is at least the truth and also a "Neutral point of view". Also hardware bans are just said to cause the victim to replace hardware so he can play again. I know someone who's had a hardware ban but it went away after a month or so, which makes me think it's only for a certain time.

Also it's worth mentioning the advetisement for the game by the US army. Here's the link for the source of two E3 trailers: http://aaotracker.4players.de/thread.php?threadid=7109 There's were also presentations of the game at E3s, one of which even with a military helicopter flying above the public, then landing and letting out some soldiers which pretended to be in a battlefield. To prove how misleading the game can be I noted some aspects. Wrong image of the army you may draw from this game (+ = wrong aspect that gives you an approving view of the army, - = aspect that gives you a disapproving view of the army):

- you're likely to die within (less than) 10minutes in missions (rounds last up to 10minutes, when the rounds ends usually more than 70% of all players are dead) (- bugs in the army (I've never ever played a game that had so many bugs) ) - much hate and insults between team members - training is ineffective (it doesn't really help you solve the missions) (- many cheaters (aimbot, wallhack, devmode, etc.)


+army is full of adventures (you play on various terrains, from desert till snow, the training is short, you'll mainly face missions) +you can do whatever you want in the team (you're not bound to squad formation, you can camp while your team dies alone) +the army would mainly concentrate on you (in the game you seem to be the centre of the universe, you get your own nice sergeant, your own special forces team introducing you to their jobs, they pretend as if you were the only soldier important in the fort) +battles are clear (enemies are easy to distinguish from your troop and from civilians, both your troops and the enemy start at a certain spawn that never changes, you can calculate where and when your enemies come or are present, clear briefing, help of ghosting) +no surprises possible(there are no randomly-created events, no suicide bombers, no mines, you can learn the maps by heart) +civilians act predicatably(there are only few maps with civilians, civilians don't move, they can't be terrorists in disguise) +you only fight terrorists (evilly-looking, armed, attentin-grabbing black males shouting uglily in a different language, fighting you and your like) +you are among the good guys (your objects are honorable, you fight against the destruction of a pipeline, against the aims of our evil terrorists, you escort a vip (counter-strike-copied idea), you destroy the evil) +you're equal to the tests in the army(the tests in the training can be accomplished by 6-year-olds, and even if you're so dumb and fail, you can do it again and again till you pass, mostly there's not even time limit, and if there is, it is totally exaggeratetly high eg. that you can accomplish a test where you're supposed to run through an obstacle course by normally walking) +everybody is nice to you (your personal sergeant greets you with "Good morning, soldier, and welcome to the M16A2 training course...", in the classroom they say "how's it going to you", every dumbest task you accomplish is awarded by "outstanding, soldier", "Hooah!", "good job!" or "great job!". +the runs in the army are easy to solve (no sweat, no gasp, no loss of pace when running for a long time, easy-to-solve time limit) +there are no real punishments for failure (you never have to polish any toilet, they tolerate failure in tests, they never yell at you, there's no military drill, there are no insults against you, they pretend to be your best friends) +the US soldiers all look great (like in advertisement on TV, in contrast to the terrorists, they only show handsome persons, even a woman explaining you the medical training, except for a small majority in the training, you only see white skins around (in the real army you'd face a great proportion of black soldiers, as mostly people from the lower class join the army and blacks mainly belong to it) +the training period is compared to the mission very short (after once accomplishing the little and few training missions, you can spent the rest on action missions, where are the endless pushups?) +the military has a high reputation (they published descriptions on the power and the glory of their forts, of course, skipping over every negative detail) +many people would play the game (they only showed the number of accounts rather the actual number of players on the server which could only reveal the popularity, even the articles I published fell for that, the actual number of players is, despite much advertisement for the game, merely about 1/12 of the number of players playing Counter-strike 1.6 online, which means very low) +there'd be no propaganda in the game (according to the official website and army officials +it would be the only game in which you don't have to kill to accomplish an objective (according to the official website, reality: what about the game they copied that from, called Counterstrike, which wasn't censored because of this very fact?) +everybody is honest and open to you (they flood you with unimportant and for the game irrelevant information on weapons, forts, tanks and jets (you know the kids are crazy about these things) till your mentality is like saying "shut up already, okay, I believe you") +you have to kill (despite the theory which allows to accomplish the objectives rather than kill, it is practically totally unrealistic to do without, neither you nor the terrorist have the possibility to give up) +terrorism could be fought with weapons (reality: it cannot, think tanks even report that the war in Iraq increased terrorism, making a negative contribution to the other war: the war on terror, violence can never be fought with violence) +the moral and enthusiasm of the US army is indestructable (you never see despair in their faces, you always here confidence in their shoutings, emerging even Battlefield as more realistic) +battlefields are clean and proper (some corpses vanish, there's no blood on the walls, there are no death screams or any other screams of pain, or any other kind of gore, emerging even Counter-strike as more realistic) +there's only training or battlefield (reality: there are no real battlefields anymore (compare that to Vietnam or Iraq) +there are no rules how to treat your enemy (no violation of the Geneva Convention punished) +in wars, there's fairness (there's no guerilla, there's no mines, there's traps, there's no bombs, there's no enemy in disguise, no kidnappings, no suicide bombers) +special forces are totally educated (in the game they speak 4languages perfectly, are experts in ten extensive and interesting military ranges, are the best soldiers in the world and all wan to tell you what they can like you were more important) +you are the most important member in the army (you arrive as the last soldier to the lectures, you have your own sergeant, everything focuses on you, even our nice special forces are happy that you care about them) +there is no military drill in the army (not included, everybody is nice, happy about their lives and happy to meet you, where's the harassment in the military??) +death isn't that horrible (neither gore nor screams and you are even allowed to chat and spectate other players till the round is over, after the round is over, you live again) +playing that game or joining the army would be honorable (a number in front of your name that the longer you play the game the more it increases is called "Honor" ** indicating the addiction for the game, reality: addiction isn't honorable but weak) +you can't get deaf forever (after an explosion happened close to you, you'll hear again in some seconds) +you can quit whenever you want to(you can quit the game whenever you want to) +after joining the army, you could be whatever you want to be (rifleman, squadleader, fireteamleader, sniper, special force,...) +after joining the army, you'd be more worth than anyone else (you get a nice but pointless little icon next to your name indicating that you're in the army) +there'd be democracy in the army (you even can initiate a vote to kick your squadleader if you want) +you could insult anyone you want (reality: try insulting your little bossy drill sergeant for example) +you know as much about the terrain as your enemy (reality: since the US army usually attacks in other countries, the other soldiers usually know more about the terrain) ETC. (I'm sure you could find many more)

The game can only mislead by contending to be realistic and this is what it does: For example:"Where do you think Americas Army will go in the future? TechnoloG: Our goal is to continue implementing America's Army to push the limits of current gaming technology while staying true to representing the U.S. Army. We are constantly trying balance our design goals between realism and fun. ... read more in the thread" REPRESENTING THE US ARMY

Also replace this picture of america's army. It is an official which gives the question if it's under copyright and it's no real screenshot because there are no screen elements (like HUD, or "Spectating"). The screenshot itself might even be described as propaganda because it doesn't give a balanced picture of the game. The fact that you see sunrises is what appears in many military sites as well. The sunrise creates a certain atmosphere of untouchedness, innocence and new. If you want a balanced picture add your own. It should be of the map that is played most (sf_hospital I guess), it should depict the weapon most people see (Rifleman), it should be at a playerspawn because that's the place that is most seen. You should be alive then and you should see other soldiers. You should see the average number of players, you usually see. That would present reality the most.


I won't write anything on propaganda but translate additional parts of the German version of wikipedia's America's Army article. The Counter-Strike article is one of the articles that we are told by wikipedia to base our other game articles on. Counter-Strike is even the game's closesed realative so the screenshot showed there is what this article's one should look like. It shows the map played most of the times (de_dust). It depicts the weapon that is bought most (desert eagle) and the player is close to the player spawn. Being disputable if the aao picture (which is not even a real screenshot) is protected under copyright or "PD-USGOV" is another reason why I think it should be replaced by a real one. Nightbeast Nov 29


Rainbow six doesn't mean anything here. You can compare AAO with a lot of other games only depending in what way. You can compare it with graphics,weapons, votekick, gameplay, sound, maps, objectives, to other games.... anything. So why compare it to Rainbow Six? Why pick one of those things capriciously? You could just as well say: Since it has the same engine, it is pretty much like Unreal Tournament. But it's irrelevant as well. It's most in common with CS and that's all that is to say. Well, anyway I'll leave it at comparison with rainbow six.


Realism is what makes this game a tactical shooter. Counterstrike is usually not refered to as a tactical shooter. Only when the game is played online and actual tactics come into play is it refered to this. See the article and play Rainbow Six then come back and tell me that AA is more like Counterstrike than it is Rainbow Six. K1Bond007 00:40, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)


I've played it over a year and stopped with 60 Honor. So I think I know something about the Culture which is just the same as in Counter-strike (which I played for two years). The only reason why it was removed was because it doesn't only show aao in a positive light, too bad. Bad it's crucial to mention BOTH positive aspects AND NEGATIVE. PROPAGANDA IS NOT SUBJECTIVE!! It is a definition. It is "a specific type of message presentation, aimed at serving an agenda. Even if the message conveys true information, it may be partisan and fail to paint a complete and balanced picture." America's Army's main agenda is to increase recruiting, create a positive image of the army and also to create a positive image of the US politics itself (political proganda. For example the US soldier in the game ALWAYS fight for a good cause. They always fight against terrorists and are supported by the natives. They fight against terrorism and their supposedly evil aims. They don't fight against furious civilians or little children with weapons) The advertisement for the US Army resembles usual TV advertisement. Gorgeous people are in the US army. Ugly people are on the other side, (in versions up to 1.7 it was more extreme: ugly aggressive-looking skinheads for example). And as you belong to the gorgeous guys as a player, everyone is nice to you to pretend your life is much better there. In the history pages of the game, there are no scandals, suicides, crimes or anything else negative mentioned. The army is glorified in every aspect. And to make sure the player believes this is how the real army is, the contend that it "represents the real army" and try to combine irrelevant details from reality to the game. They flood the player with hundreds of details of weapons, military bases, US army units etc. till the player gives up being critical and starts believe it's the truth. The entire purpose of the training levels is to do just that. The training itself is totally ineffective for the player with regard to performance for the rest of the game (it doesn't even teach how to run. I had to ask another player online to get to know that). But the game would never mention the low money a soldier earns (and it is low, half of what the British army earns or so I've heard) or anything negative against the army. If I still haven't convinced you, look at wrong picture it creates (the misleading aspects of the game mentioned above. And if that can't convince you, think about this: why did the game cause worldwide indignation and ethical debates if it's not because propaganda entered computer games? why is there an objective article by an university writing about America's Army as video game propaganda? why did it remain after checking for further basis for people? why has never been mentioned in any professional source that there's controversy if it's propaganda or not? why does CNN even say the army "readily admits it's propaganda"? why doesn't even the army deny it is propaganda? (I searched extensively for what the army has to say to this allegation of propaganda: nothing) why do many sources speak of it as "the world's best propaganda game and the best recruitment scheme since the Nazi threat in World War II"?


and if you still don't believe it is propaganda: why do you delude yourself or do you just pretend you don't believe it because you don't want this fact mentioned in the article because it could include the negative side of the game and be objective? But I begin to understand why you want this "screenshot" (which is not a screenshot) included: it looks good and could advertise for this game, although it is different from how the screenshots should look like. I mean real screenshots. The CS article is how we're supposed to do it.Nightbeast 16:22, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC) I've just found another source which could be used in this article as well. http://artcontext.org/crit/essays/noQuarter/ Nightbeast 17:37, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)


That's funny, really. You say it's advertisement but deny it's propaganda! Read through Wikipedia's article on propaganda and look at the examples. By the way, America's Army is an example there too. Funny, huh? And by the way, it DOES have a message "Join me!" or for those from abroad: "Have sympathy for me!". And to the editorial things: what about the research paper? Do you know what an university is? Is that article POV? Do you know what .edu means? If America's Army is not defined by the word propaganda, nothing is. And read through what I posted. No, I can't give you any statement by the army... HoW?!! Is Macdonalds advertisement no advertisement because they didnt say it is? And if the CNN guy says "the army readily admits", prove it's a lie. BTW why should the army publicly say it's propaganda? So that everybody knows? Nightbeast 23:23, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)


No sorry, that's just a wikipedian change. The actual article which is NPOV doesn't include the last line. You don't say "recruiting advertising". Propaganda means the same as in German or the Oxfor dictionary along with others just lie..Nightbeast 22:29, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thirdly, the university article calls America's Army propaganda, and I disagree. It's that simple! Also, universities don't have NPOV policies, and neither do history books or dictionaries. They could very well be POV, and I think this university article must be.

They don't publish POV article on "research paper", but if you can disprove that, go ahead. I just hope you don't only write I disagree in your English essays, do you? Nightbeast 22:14, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

As for CNN, I see where you SAY CNN said that the army admits it is propaganda, but I can't find a SOURCE. Your words aren't a source - I require independent verification. Andre (talk) 21:56, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)

search again for it and click on the link two lines above written by Morris, "Morris is director of content development for CNN/Money."Nightbeast 22:29, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)


oh indirectly aao manipulates the fact too, you should read my "misleading statesment".

no, to disprove you donm't need two people, you need an argument. The statement "it's POV" must be based on arguments, saying two people think it is, means nothing. an editorial doesn't mean it's a lie. it means there's an own opinion. and if he claims the army "readily admits" it's propaganda, then I've got a goddamn authority argument while you have nothing. "Because of its portrayal of the U.S. Army and its political aims". What are you trying to say??? The main NPOV artice about propganda where wikipedia got almost everything from defines America's Army as propagandaNightbeast 22:52, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)



Well, of course it doesn't create a complete and balanced picture. You can go through all the points above (not everyone opinionless, and you'll see that it doesn't create a balanced picture. To do that, it would also be necessary how the "enemy" considers his and the army's objectives. And several points more. Is it a feeling that the Geneva Convention is neglected ALTHOUGH THE DEVELOPERS CLAIM THAT "players are bound by the laws of land warfare"? Is it a feeling that there are only very few civilians included? Is it a feeling that there are no randomly-created events, no suicide bombers, no mines? Is it a feeling that everybody says nice things to you? Is it a feeling that there's no harassment in the army? Strangely a documentary on tv claims there is in the US army.


I don't lie. Speaking of painting a balanced picture, wheres the information on MILES? It's funny how the word "balance" is getting tossed around, but the majority that is posted is negative and one of the biggest parts of the game is missing. K1Bond007 23:58, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

what the hell is MILES?? anyway post something of that if it's really so important. hmm. are you talking of that training thing laser part to beep enemies down? Oh I see. Yes, that's worth mentioning too even though only few players play these maps (I liked that map in which you're in a cornfield though).

Understand this: a feeling is something subjective and is often not true. A fact is something necessarily true. If you devaluate facts as feelings, it's POV.

Gameplay

Quote: added the negative side to your positive one (I kmow I only added the bad before that too))

What the hell? Is this section about the gameplay or is about the controversies of the game. You didn't ADD anything, you replaced. I'm so sick of this article. You can edit and add all the BS you want. I'm done. K1Bond007 18:41, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

I concentrated on the map and objectives of the map "Hospital". It is the map mostly played. I only stated the objectives of one team. Then you came up with the objectives of the other team replacing. Now I came up with the objectives of both teams.

(though some players have multiple accounts) that's too inaccurate. The fact that player accounts don't get deleted and that half of them hasn't even done the training and who knows exactly how many player accounts there are? Can a site that pretends to have over 4 millions players, which is, of course, a lie and that pretends to have included "players are bound by the laws of land warfare" but has never heard of the Geneva Conventions.... There's not even safety like for e-mail providers because they'd even like it when someone writes a program creating ten accounts per seconds which is possible or maybe they made the number up. Who knows? Honesty is obviously not an army value...

Controversy: it is about political themes (I don't know what is meant by 'nationalist' but the game describes the US soldier as superior to the other soldiers. He's more gorgeous, fights for the right cause, fights evil, defends freedom, has the finest special forces, comes from the finest military stations, is supported by allies (but they're uglier than him) is always enthusiastic and so on.... well maybe 'nationalist' doesn't totally fit but political is true). Giving a good impression of the army IS political. Recruitment is related to politics and advertisement. Read the new external link (3.2.)

Gameplay: Don't try to play down what the killing of human beings means even if it could be considered a negative aspect. It's worth mentioning. I know your argument is "it's just a game" and that other games are like that too but if they tell it is a representation of the U.S. Army and their wars, it should be considered as what their enemies are described. AAO really is an interesting game... 62.134.104.30 18:54, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Political themes occur in advertising just as much as they do in propaganda. Ever see campaign ads? "I'm George Bush and I approve this message?" Also, AA is a first-person shooter like any other. What would you expect? You get points for hugging human beings? Andre (talk) 19:29, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)

Maybe that's why they call it ELECTION PROPAGANDA rather than election advertisement. If AA was a normal first-person shooter, they wouldn't call it realistic, they wouldn't say it represents the U.S.Army and so on. It's just a logical conclusion that the game rewards and punishes actions. Of course, they punish FF. Otherwise it would be a chaos. But I call it perverse if you call the killing of enemies honorable and "appropriate behavior". There were no own opinions included so why remove it?

Actually, no, it's called election advertisement. At any rate, I added in the sentence "Many critics of the game feel that these aspects, normal in first-person shooters, should not be present in something that claims to represent the army, to whatever degree." to express your POV of this normal FPS behavior being inappropriate. However, making it seem unusual and abnormal for FPSes would be false and POV. Killing enemies is appropriate behavior in FPSes. Andre (talk) 19:50, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)

If the "publicity and promotion to further a candidate's chance of being elected top an office or post" is not called "election propaganda", my dictionary lies to us again! Oh come on, this is getting so childish. Enter "election propaganda" into google and compare the results to "election advertisement". It's just that the word "advertisement" sounds better. But it is wrong according to the defnition. No! My point is that the game rewards the killing of opponents lastingly and calls it honorable. That's something totally different! And because it claims to represent the army, the consideration of the opponents is worth mentioning. It could just as well only connect the honor to the time played, if Honor needs to be included.


Yes, it's the name that describes the action as honorable, of course, unlike other games. And unlike other games, it even has a lasting effect. If you shoot someone in Counter-Strike, it gives you some money. It doesn't call the action honorable and when you leave the server, the effect is gone forever. It needs to be mentioned and if you call the international image of the U.S. Army and how they lead wars not a political context, I'd be curious if the word "propaganda" exists in your opinion

Yes, it describes the experience a soldier gets when he shoots an opponent as honorable, as HONORABLE. Lastingly. That's all. There has never been the question if they ushered that on purpose or not (I think they did it, you think different, the answer who's right or wrong is out there.) so I didn't mention it at all. Don't you behave so stubborn and exclude the whole truth about AAO in the article.

Andrevean, just because you added "Though not everybody agrees that america's army is propaganda. It certainly is recruitment adversary" for the word "propaganda" doesn't make the game a recruitment adversary. It just manipulates the NPOV article where the entire definition comes from and added something you can NEVER prove. You don't need more sources to prove it to you, you need a bit honesty and give in or you need counter-arguments.

Well, I don't think anyone disputes that it's a recruitment advertisement. Or do you? However, there is some disagreement regarding whether the game is propaganda. Andre (talk) 01:39, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)


As far as propaganda goes, I've made my stance pretty clear. If this were 70 something years ago, I'd agree with you that that the game is propaganda, however, as stated the word propaganda has a negative conotation attached to it now that describes things as deceptive and misleading, two things as far as the GAME is concerned I don't feel are true. Therefore, I feel calling it propaganda is highly subjective and POV. I've never stopped anyone from writing a section on the controversy that it is propaganda, but in a wikipedia article to flat out call it propaganda is wrong. K1Bond007 17:38, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)

"I can't understand how anyone can really compare Counterstrike to America's Army. They're really not similar at all. The only thing truly in common is that both are first person shooters and that hardly warrants the comparisons found throughout the article especially the ones where 99.99% of time aren't even comparable such as the sentence about buying weapons in Counterstrike. Why even mention that here?"

Comparison AAO-CS

they're not comparable? so the following points are only exceptions:

a one and only round-based time-limited team-deathmatch, in which you pause for the round when dead, in which you can win the round by either accomplishing the objectives or killing all the enemies, in which the terrorist fight the counter-terrorists, which was for free and popular, which was limited to carrying ONE big weapon and ONE pistol and some GRENADES, whose grenades can be SMOKE, EXPLOSION OR FLASHBANG, in which a nightvision google can be used, in which you have to shout a comment when you throw an explosive grenade with other teammembers alive (Fire in the hole!/Frag out!), in which the player is in the SPECTATOR mode after death, in which a HUD MENU is used for weapon selection, in which you shoot more accurate when you don't move and accuracy gets worse while shooting, in which you aim more accurate when crouching, in which legal cheats for singleplayer (like godmode, noclip/ghost, weapon codes, ..), in which there are no weapons belonging to no one lie on the ground, in which you move slowlier after jumping, in which you can shoot through certain objects, in which usually one time wins and the other looses and only few draws appear but in both games a draw is possible, in which players can be directly kicked by an admin(eg Splinter cell does not allow that) && VOTEKICKED out (CS allows votecasts, so does AAO),whose SOURCE CODE is not published, in which you can COMMIT SUICIDE with a console command, in which the zone where the bullets hits decides how much damage is taken, in which there's a clear distinction between "GOOD" and "BAD" - and they're opposed being forced to kill each other without chance for surrender, in which the weight of weapons is regarded, in which FF is possible, in which walking makes noise, which were the reasons for creating clan wars in leages, in which there's a VIP hunt, in which the corpses don't vanish, NO RESPAWNING TILL END OF ROUND, SPAWNS CLOSE TO EACH OTHER, in which the health is able to be restored during the end of the round and is always restored at a new round, in which the killing of opponents is more rewarded than just with score (money/lasting score,honor), in which a map describtion is displayed on joining, NO MUSIC IN THE BACKGROUND only noises of weapons and footsteps!!!, in which jumping from a high platform causes damage, in which in which you can record DEMOS (+CONSOLE (AAO even uses this console for chatting and DEATH MESSAGES), which have updates that add or remove maps and change the gameplay, +SCRIPTS (setting aliases for CONSOLE COMMANDS)), in which the OBJECTIVES are in a clear contrast and always one team looses after time has passed without eleminating the other team or completing the objective, in which you can chat to the team or to everyone, in which you can't chat when dead, in which you can chat certain audible orders to your teammembers, which do not have other modes like Deathmatch or Capture the Flag as a choice in Multiplayer, which are using GameSpy for the server list, in which there are the weapons M249,M16,AK47, 2 sniper-rifles per team(a strong one and a weak one), in which you can exchange your weapon+ammo with weapons+ammo that lie on the ground, in which you don't aim at the enemy automatically, clans, anti-cheating programs, which are mods (CS: mod of HL; AAO: mod of UT); both specialized in Multiplayer only, in which you you're mostly on foot though containing vehicles (CS allows vehicles in maps, so does AAO), in which there are civilians which you can kill, in which you get punished for killing civilians/hostages, ETC... You can add some more if you like! So far I've been dealing with the fact that the gameplay is very similar. But the main point is that almost every gamer knows Counter-Strike in contrast to Rainbow Six.

WTF. You just described over a hundred video games out there. Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon just for starters. There are literally thousands of video games that are round based drawing a comparison between AA and CS in this fashion is just foolish. Secondly, America's Army is not a mod. It's a full-version game licencing the engine from Epic Games. If I were to use your logic, Half-Life would be a mod since Half-Life isn't an original game engine. It, in fact, is using the Quake engine, but you knew that because look at all the information up there! You can record DEMOS!! YOU CAN DO THAT IN ALMOST EVERY GAME USING THE UNREAL OR QUAKE ENGINE. This is ridiculous. I feel like the only game you've ever played is Counterstrike. What about Medal of Honor: Allied Assault. You can play round based, you only get so many grenades, theres cheating, there's anti-cheats, theres clans, theres enemies, you can record demos! It's JUST LIKE AMERICA'S ARMY! -- but I'm the blind one K1Bond007 23:30, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
There is no need to discuss whether CS is a mod of HL or HL is a mod of Q2 which would implicate that CS can't be a mod of HL..

STOP DISTRACTING FROM THE SUBJECT BY TRYING TO FOCUS ON SUCH IRRELEVANT ISSUES.

If you know any other game that has more in common with AAO, go ahead or yield. There's no game which has all the listed features TOGETHER!! But wait, I agree with you in one point: don't list all the similarities between AAO and CS in the article, not because they're different, but because there ARE TOO MANY, the differences should be listed.

Rainbox Six is a very weak comparision because it's using autoaim and focuses on SinglePlayer as well.80.184.109.70 12:35, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Rainbow Six also has a very popular multiplayer portion of the game that doesn't have autoaim. Also autoaim is an option. It can be turned on or off. It depends on the difficulty or the user and because of which is irrelevant. Anything more to add? AA is not comparable to counterstrike. You just can't face the simple truth here because Counterstrike is all you know. K1Bond007 17:13, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

Haven't I posted enough similarites??????????????? Just because they're not TOTALLY the same doesn't mean that they're not comparable. When there are so many similarities it is not only comparable but also SIMILAR. Make a list of more similarities between AAO and Rainbow looking at what I posted. Only name those that CS does NOT have and then those of the list that CS has but Rainbow Six doesn't. If you manage that and point out you're right then you have an argument but otherwise, stop getting stuck on those issues. Learn to accept that AAO is very to CS. 20:07, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)~


Don't pretend to be THAT blind. That's just too obvious, you know? If you can -READ- better than me, then you'll have noticed these comparisons already at the beginning of the talk age. Or why don't you just read the article of CS and compared the gameplays? Well, anyway it's obvious that you're just TRYING TO DISTRACT from the rest. How pathetic!

Propaganda: We're talking about the dictionary meaning, not that the word often carries negative connontations. Just because prpaganda has got a bad reputation, doesn't mean propaganda isn't propaganda anymore.

And I would agree, however, the word does have a negative connotation and you can't hold a blind eye to that. Even in the wikipedia article it states this. I was for a previous edit by Andre that claimed it was propaganda, but also mentioned the game not having a lot of the negative connotations associated with the word today. K1Bond007 23:39, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
'Nazi' also contains a "negative connotation" - is that a reason to erase it from history?

If the definition of the words fits the case it should be allowed even if it's no positive aspect. Is a dog no dog because in some languages "Dog" has negative connontation??? It is DEFINITely a dog! If you replace the word "propaganda" to 80.184.109.70 12:35, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Oh shutup dude. WTF. Nazi ONLY has a negative definition. I can't believe I even bother with you. This is honestly the dumbest thing I've ever read. K1Bond007 17:13, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)
Consider the word "retard." If you're someone with mental disabilities, you don't want to be called a "retard." It's not a nice word. It has a negative connotation. Propaganda is a step further, in that its negative connotation has come to be the only viable connotation in most contexts. Andre (talk) 17:17, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

"Oh shutup dude. WTF." (You needn't start insulting Bond, I'm sure OBJECTIVE admins wouldn't like that.) Actually that was just an example to say that a lot of words have a "negative connotation" but to name another word that fits less only because of the reputation is just POV (I know you like that word). I forgot that the word has two meanings, the historical (abr. of Nationalsozialist) and the pure insult so I admit it was a bad example and history books don't include that word for this reason because they're neutral. So what do they call propaganda? Advertisement? No, they call it propaganda, just and only propaganda. As you know, this "negative" and "positive" are subjective opinions => POV. Only the definition of the word is deciding. Propaganda OFTEN has a negative connontation, because most people don't like it. If you replace it with "advertisement", which only fits for non-political stuff, only shows your POV making the article subjective. Advertisement does NOT INCLUDE POLITICAL CONTEXTS. Advertisement is not a synonym for propaganda. To Andre: retard's definition is SLANG and OFFENSIVE. You wouldn't find it in any book using formal or neutral tone. It does not have a negative CONNOTATION, the meaning of the word is always negative and only used to express a negative view whereas the CONNOTATION of propaganda is not necessarily negative but only another POV. I mean, the connotation can both be considered negative by some and positive by others - this connotation is NOT DEFINABLE and therefore not defined so it musn't be considered. America's Army IS propaganda, even the source where most of Wikipedias' Propaganda-definition comes from states that propaganda has often a negative connontation AND defines America's Army as propaganda.20:07, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)~

Sorry, you're wrong. First of all, advertising is often used for political contexts. TV ads for politicians are ads, not propaganda - people don't call them propaganda chiefly due to the negative connotation we're discussing here! Secondly, the word retard comes from the Latin retardare, meaning "to delay." Historically in English it has been used to refer to anyone who is delayed in development, mentally. Thus the term "mentally retarded," or more colloquially "retard," has a denotation that refers to people with mental disabilities, and a connotation that is extremely negative. By the way, "oh shutup dude. WTF." isn't a personal attack, and I am an administrator. Andre (talk) 20:49, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

TV ads for politicians is called ELECTION PROPAGANDA. This is the correct word. Those parties would never call it propaganda because propaganda sounds worse than the word "advertisement", although it doesn't fit. That's their POV, they're biased. People went on with calling it "TV advertisement" because everyting on TV which tried to convince them to do something was usually advertisement (since it was mainly aimed at promoting goods and services). Now, if you call something Election propaganda, most wouldn't understand... And (if they know what propaganda is), because they're used to the word "advertisement", they'd call it biased because the only reason they'd see why the word "propaganda" was chosen, would be because "propagaganda" is often considered negative and hence POV. But it's no use just to call propaganda, "advertisement". "Propaganda" is and will ever be the correct word for "propaganda", mainly the promotion of political contexts. The definition of the word "retard" carries SLANG and OFFENSIVE. The definition of the word "propaganda" does not. "Advertisement" is NO synonym for "propaganda."


Whatever. You're so innocent. Btw, I like how you changed the image on the page by overwriting it. Very sneaky. You couldn't get the support here because it was a legal and a perfectly ok screenshot to use, so you just went behind the block on the page and changed it. We could have used that image elsewhere on the page, but obviously if it's not your way, it's not the correct way. Am I right? I'm done arguing about this and editing the article. You're not into actually having any sort of civil discussion about anything if people disagree with you. No matter how many times your edits have been reverted, argued, pointed out as being POV/subjective, and even infringing on other copyrighted works, you haven't changed your way. You continue to change it to suit YOUR beliefs and feelings on the article even when you're possibly wrong. In retrospect what I said was wrong and probably shouldn't have been said, however, I also have no regrets. K1Bond007 21:32, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I like that image too: maybe it's not a screenshot (the other wasn't either. I pointed THAT out to you as well) but it's the cover of the game and one of the wiki examples had that as a gamepicture too. Why I didn't announce it? I've got the impression you've stopped keeping your mind open lately and started to have a reactionary POV. What do you mean by "if it's not my way, it's not the correct way"?? Was it me or someone else who locked the page to promote his own version? And what did I do? I compounded what I considered the best parts of the two versions to have a better article and responded to every discussion point. Yes, of course, you're sick of argueing because to be successful on this page, you'd need arguments instead of some pathetic admin rights. You accuse me of not behaving civil?? I consider "shut up" and insult and not civil in a discussion. Did I insult you?? People can disagree with me and I'll still keep my mind open and search for improvements. You pointed out that my edits, MY!!, were subjective??? I thought I'd made clear they were not but obviously talking is not your favorite... Now you're referring to the picture again... Like I said I don't care a damn if it's copyright or not. The actual reason why I changed it was because it is no screenshot at all. It was just a modified picture from the official site to advertise for the game, not a normal screenshot you'd see everywhere. It is for this reason why I replaced it with the second method of depicting something of the game: front cover. It took a long time to find it by the way and it doesn't suit my beliefs or feelings at all by the way. I didn't usher my opinion, just facts to balance the article with you counteracting and with you trying to usher basically wrong words (advertisement) that could create a better reputation for the game.

It was a screenshot. How is it not. It was taken IN-GAME. Granted it doesn't have a HUD, but thats not a requirement to be a screenshot. And you can call what I said anything you want, I don't care. You calling my arguements blind and pathetic makes you all the more hypocritical. K1Bond007 22:38, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

How do you know for sure?? It's just "Taiga 3/4" from the main page of the game. It's not a usual screenshot. This picture is to create a good impression of the game and not to show a common scene of it. I think the cover fits better into an infobox (the example in the wikiproject also used the cover and not a picture from the publishers. If I'd posted a real screenshot you'd have called it POV anyway; I think that's the most objective one - although it's to promote the game as well) I don't think there is the need for a discussion because of that. There are much heavier issues to be discussed. You should be glad I don't insist on a screenshot of a common scene of the game which might be considered to have "negative connotations".145.254.137.153 00:13, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think that the game cover is a better image for the infobox, but the other screenshot should not have been overwritten. That's not how things are done. I don't have a vested interest in making this game look good, but calling it propaganda without explaining that this is a point of view is not NPOV. Do I, personally, believe that the game is propaganda? Yes, I do - does this surprise you? Is this my POV? Yes. Is this an absolute truth? No, so it must be expressed in an NPOV fashion.Andre (talk) 22:45, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

My responses are placed between allegations, below.

Sorry, but I had to overwrite it to see how it would look like because your friend blocked the site from changes. If you miss the screenshot, it's saved in the history and can be very easily found on the official homepage of that game. Propaganda is NO POINT OF VIEW. Why should it be????? It's not more POV than "advertisement", "Life", "being" or "gun". Just like all the other words, it's bound to a definition. I've already mentioned: -the fact that such newspapers as The Guardian describe aao as propaganda

In editorials, which are POV
 which doesn't mean that facts aren't facts or that propaganda isn POV. It is not. Editorials just include an opinion.

-the fact that the only two university articles about AAo I found described aao as being propaganda

Well naturally you're not going to find university articles about it NOT being propaganda. The propaganda allegation is all that makes AA interesting to university article writers.

Yes, but the question if AA is propaganda has always been responded to with YES. Question (aao propaganda?) and answer (yes). If you find one saying NO, tell me. -the fact that the game creates an incomlete and unbalaned picture

All you've alleged so far regarding this is that there isn't any blood and players can't be terrorists. Neither of these are unusual - the government wanted to avoid an M rating, and the stated point of the game is to portray a fight "for freedom," not against it. How effective would the game be as a recruitment device if it had players play as the terrorists? Freedom and speculations?? Are you tryining to distract again? It's controversial if it's "for freedom" or not. Just don't mention it. You mentioned the government... where does propaganda often come from? "Not incomplete or not balanced??? So where are all the civilians, where are the mines, traps, suicide bombers, guerilla fighters, anything????? And what's your argument?? Because people already know you bleed in war?? Thanks for the argument, because that just proves that the picture is not complete, that only other knowledge makes it complete. Where's the POV? Oh I see, just an accusation to scare. " And that's just some examples. You can find more from the "false picture the game creates" at the beginiing of this talk page. Since I haven't played the game for a long time and still remember all these things... maybe you could add some more.

-the fact that CNN claims the army "readily admits it's a propaganda device"

And yet, in this CNN column, there's not a reference or a quote of any kind, and this CNN editorial is the only source alleging that the Army admits it is a propaganda device. Lacking any other information to the contrary, I must assume that the CNN writer is lying or mistaken. Fact is that CNN writers almost never lie, otherwise they'd ruin their own and their channels reputation. It's extremely unlikely that he's lying and you know that. That CNN says it "readily admit it's a propaganda device" is an authority argument.

-links to recruitng centers Goarmy.com (on the main page and when you want to rent a server)

Because it's a recruitment device. Recruitment, too, has a political context.

-the fact that propaganda is usually used in political context

Not any more so than advertising. "Buy Coke" and "Vote for Bush" are two advertisements, neither are propaganda.

Well except for "vote for Bush" because of its political context although it doesn't contain anything incomplete or unbalanced. Where's YOUR argument that "vote for Bush is advertisement instead of propaganda? Only that you're more used to the word? That's the only (weak) argument you have and can have. It is and remains a fact that propaganda is usually used in political context. America's Army HAS political context! -the fact that advertisement is usually used at the promotion of goods or services

See previous. Does "see previous" oppose the fact that "advertisement is usually used at the promotion of goods or services"? No, it does not. Fact is fact. Advertisement is no propaganda.

-the fact that there's mainly political background of AAO (1 the image of the US Army, 2 image of their wars, 3image of its enemies(4terrorists), "The use of the terms terrorism and terrorist is politically weighted, as these terms (and historically, other terms like them) are often used in propaganda to drum up support in opposition to the designated "terrorists."5 recruitment, 6USarmy=army game=instrument of american politics, 7USarmy=army game=repressive state apparatus, 8recruitment=standing army=of high political importance,9USarmy=army game=implicitly represents the values of its society and its government, 10 from Congress, 11 not only recruitment (which can also be called advertisement) is important but worldwide publication because of the army's image, etc.)

"See previous." See? You can't oppose it at all. AAo has mainly political context as you can see.

-the fact that history books are neutral and are supposed not to include POV

History is written by the winners. Additionally, I often find that American history books are biased on such events like the annexation of Hawaii or the Vietnam War. Then I wonder why both German and English history books are calling propaganda propaganda. If think your history book is biased, find another one. History books mention facts and sources, they don't comment on anything. That's also why a lot of pages are found boring by some. In German, propaganda has negative connontations too (no wonder, propaganda hadn't achieved much positive in germany before) and in German the (non-existing) word (translated) "election advertisement" is mostly used for "election propaganda" but still the word is included in social science books of today for stuff of today. For example parties do propaganda to the public, parties do propaganda to parliament, governement does propaganda to the public, economy does advertisement to the public. Oh i see! They're ALL BIASED!! Boo boo...

-the fact that all the history books speak of what is defined by propaganda as ... propaganda

I fail to see how this is relevant to America's Army, which is not history. You claimed propaganda is POV or just an insult. Obviously it is not. History books KEEP TO THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD, not to words that have a similar meaning without often negative connontations. If history books would call propaganda advertisement, they'd be biased because they'd try to replace the correct word by a wrong word to create a better impression.

-the fact that dictionaries are neutral and usually reliable

Dictionaries chiefly feature denotation, not connotation.

So a dog is a cat? I mean because dogs sometimes carry negative connontations and cats are similar to dogs. -the fact that dictionaries claim propaganda is no synonym for advertisement or vice versa

No one is alleging such.

Correct but misunderstood. The fact thats it's no synonym proves that advertisement CANNOT REPLACE propaganda. -the fact that dictionaries don't describe Propaganda as matter of tast or anything

What's tast? I mean they don't describe it as capriciously defined. well not improtant anyway

-the fact that the main article (NPOV; protected) of the definition of the word "propaganda" from where wikipedia has most of the information of the word "propaganda" from describes aao as such

As says this article, Though not everyone agrees that this game is propaganda, it's certainly a recruitment advertisement.

Lol, no, you just manipulated that NPOV article. Besides it's irrelevant that not everybody agrees. Not everybody agrees that the world is a globe but still it is. Not everybody agrees that there was a landing on the moon (<--I mean it) but that doesn't oppose the fact at all and just like not everybody agrees it's propaganda, not everybody agrees it's recruitment adversary. The game contains mainly propaganda but also recruitment adversary. I told you the political context of the game proving it. -the fact that I haven't found any source on the net opposing the view of aao not being propaganda or rather advertisement or that there's controversy if it's advertisement or propagaganda or anything

"How about the players of the game?" Oh wait a second, I'll ask some 6-year-old idiot who got shot and accuses the whole world of cheating. The players of the game are as immature as in CS (CS should have older people because it's not Teen rated). They could claim it is not propaganda, but, of course, they wouldn't have an argument (nor a clue). The sectopm "What is supposed to be changed" contains that "a lot of players don't think it is [propaganda] and prefer the word "recruitment advertisement"" so I included the fact that not everyone considers it propaganda.

-the fact that you haven't come up with more than just the allegation it is POV and the fact that the word "propaganda" often carries negative connontations

What else do I need to come up with? You could have come up with an article claiming AAO is not propaganda... if you find one. You can't deny the definition of the word propaganda and you can't deny the political background of aao. I don't think you could come up with more anyway, because there's no fact contradicting to what I posted. Don't play stubborn and add the truth. I TOLD YOU!

... No, don't you now come up saying "the guardian is no authority for me" or anything. How many times are we going trough this again and again? Are you maybe trying to distract into smaller and smaller points only postpone the time when it is corrected in the main article? Please focus and make way for the improvements (at the bottom of this page) for the main article. Or are you just trying to avoid anything apart from your version?

ANDRE, I knew you'd come up trying to start little distractions to smaller and smaller issues to get more time and mislead. Your version of the article is CRAP and contains your POV because you replaced the correct word "propaganda" with the wrong word "advertisement" to create a better image of the game. You know you're wrong and you don't want to accept it.




Andre, while we're at it...

I really can't deal with this much longer. The whole point of consensus building is compromise. I've compromised already by mentioning the propaganda allegation in the article, where I feel it has no place. You haven't compromised - you merely spout the same allegations again and again in your stilted, non-native speaker English. Please understand that it doesn't matter who you convince of your view - it's not an absolute truth, and will not be written as such in the article no matter what, unless the Army admits that AA is propaganda. Andre (talk) 00:41, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)

Compromised??? What was the last version I wrote? A compromise! Who ignored it immediately and had the page blocked?? You (or your friends, I don't care). Why did you do that? To avoid a compromise and try to advertise including your POV. You've tried all the time to advertise for the game and leave out negative aspects. That's not an advertisement page, it's supposed to be an OBJECTIVE article. You just locked the page because you're incapable of not having your opinion included. You tried to have it unbalanced and to mislead. A fact is not allegation but a fact. An allegation may be a fact but it may be false as well. I didn't include my POV, but you did by replacing correct words by wrong words, by mentioning the good sides but "forgetting" the negative ones. The fact that you want the army to admit is just as ridiculous as not accepting that the earth is a globe until god did or as ridiculous as describing a dog, a cat because dogs don't admit they're dogs. The difinition of propaganda applies to the game and that's all that counts. But if my bad English bothers you, feel free to correct it. Now concentrate on that below please instead of trying to distract and go through the same again and again.

still to change

It's more propaganda than recruiting adversary because of the political context. The fact that not everyone agrees that it is advertisement is clear. Some people don't even accept that the world is a globe... no honestly! Besides, I've met players that not even agree it is recruiting adversary. Some claim it is a training tool, some even think they did it all for free... one even claimed it wasn't meant for the public. Another one even claimed it's no first-person-shooter...

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ But what does the army claim? "Q: Is this a recruiting tool? A: … it provides young adults and their influencers with virtual insights about the Army…"

Too hard to say "yes" or "no"? The army can't even admit it's a recruiting tool, how pathetic. But what about the fact that the army rewards the killing of opponents and calls it indirectly honorable? "Q: Does the game encourage players to kill other game players? A: Violence merely for the sake of violence is not part of the Army and therefore is not rewarded within the game." (OH YES?????? Score? Honor? Class selection? ) Q: How have you designed the game so that violence is discouraged? A: …if they fail to operate as a member of a team that is operating towards achievement of a U.S. Army objective, then they will not advance in the game. (what about the violence IN REGARD TO THE OPFOR?!? How can you win on Hospital on ambush? By kissing the VIP to death???)

This is all incredibly stupid. It's a GAME. If you've ever played the game you would know that someone can go into the game kill 20 people and still end up with something close to zero points if they failed to stay alive or do any of the goals. Goals and Leadership account for more points than your kills do. Thus the above statement is true. K1Bond007 17:38, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, you're right... if he FAILS TO SHOOT THE VIP for example... it encourages violence, but, as you said, it discourages death. Leadership and goal are also connected to the killing of enemies. No team could ever achieve anything without shooting the enemies, no team. Only through the aid of weapons a VIP can pass safely, only through the aid of weapons a CP or the valves can be unprotected, only through violence a team can be successful.

Q: How many of the missions require force? A: Less than 40% of the missions in the game depict simulated combat… (Oh more than 60% of the game is training? Did I miss something?)

Whoa whoa whoa Mr. Unbalance.. how about quoting the rest of that answer: "Less than 15% of the missions in the game depict training with weapons, roughly one-fifth depict training in units with our laser-tag systems, and one-fourth depict training in which there are no weapons. Team based combat missions are approximately only 40% of the game." The laser-tag system, MILES, is considered training equipment, which is why those missions are considered "training". K1Bond007 17:38, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
nice playing with figures!!! It's a good choice to pick "missions" to play with.

If they create a hundred of training maps which only consist of one room (that would be called "mission" as well) which teleports to another, they could even have much better numbers to conceil the truth. Unfortunately they don't say how much time the players spend on "missions" that use weapons and unfortunately those maps with MILES (also counted to the "missions") don't have servers or empty servers and thus are unplayable but exist though. But it's nice how they're trying to confuse and those nice fractions that use roundings while no numbers are given how they were calculated - who would spend time to find out?? Let's get back to reality, it's a matter of fact that a player spends most time on "missions" that require shooting and you know that. I know it's impossible to prove that but I think there's no need to prove it anyway.

[...]We have made a game that stresses values and does not condone bad behavior. (that's true... only if the killing of OPFOR isn't considered bad behavior) }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}


"While it fundamentally fits the definition of a playable and subliminal slice of propaganda, a lot of players don't think it is and prefer the word "recruitment advertisement" instead and emphasize it is more realistic than most other first-person shooters."needs to be added because it's 1 the truth and 2 the most important counter-argument for the game. The most important arguments in favor of the game are also there: unreal engine, for free, popular. If you don't add that there, it seems biased and unbalanced.

"It also adopts a great deal from the most widely played online FPS for the past few years, Counter-Strike, a Half-Life modification. " needs to be taken because 'adapt' is the wrong word and "the most widely played online FPS for the past few years" is a fact that characterises CS better than that it is a Half-Life modification. If you don't know CS, you (usually) don't know Half-Life either. Half-Life was a revolution in the history of games and CS revoluted online gaming. There's still about 12 times as many CS1.6 players than there are aao players.

"However, it is not about the promotion of a commercial product but mainly about political themes and therefore suggests the word "propaganda"." needs to be said because it's the truth. It doesn't say you can't say "advertisement" for it but because of the political aspects it just cannot be denied that it is more related to the word (<-- I didn't even include that).

If you don't include "The killing of human beings and the outcome of the mission corresponds lastingly to score points and "Honor". However, it draws a sharp distinction between the U.S. Army (including allied Indigenous forces), and opposing forces. The killing of Americans or their allies has an extremely negative effect on your score and "Honor", consequently calling it totally dishonorable. The killing of opponents, by contrast - no matter if they were trying to kill you or if they are unnarmed - increases your score and "Honor", consequently calling the action honorable in general. The accomplishment of the U.S. Army's aims, instead of their opponents aims, affects your score favorably and therefore your "Honor" as well, indirectly calling the objectives of the U.S. Army honorable and the objectives of its opponents dishonorable at the same time. The score and, as a result, "Honor" is saved in the players' accounts." but only that friendly fire is punished, you only includ ONE SIDE OUT OF TWO. Think of the word "complete" and "balanced". Also, the effect is lastingly and describes the killing as honorable, indirectly but it does. It may be controversial if they did that on purpose but that it does is clear. It mentioned that there's lasting punishement for FF and lasting rewards for killing opponents... and that's just how it is like.

"it is also slower than Counter-Strike's". Compare these two speeds and you'll also agree on that.

I quit

I quit, people. I can't deal with this page anymore and Nightbeast/anonymous editor's nonsensical arguments. Sorry. Andre (talk) 20:21, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)

(Deleted Flame [[User:GregNorc|GregNorc|Talk]])Policy: "Do not protect a page you are involved in an edit dispute over." Thus you totally ignored that one. Your friend called what I did "vandalism". However, it was not http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism . If it was something then it was stubbornness but that's not vandalism and I didn't revert the page but create improved ones. I did most of the article from the correct dates of all versions over to the correct history and to gameplay. I only tried to improve it so it wasn't even stubborness, I kept my mind open all the time. You? You had it locked and tried to dig in the same aspects of the conversation we already had again and again to distract. You changed the article in your favour, (Deleted Flame [[User:GregNorc|GregNorc|Talk]]), since you were the ones without objective ones (deleted inflammatory comment) The very least thing you could do is open the main article again and let it improve. Before I came, before I affected the page, it looked like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=America%27s_Army&oldid=7907161 Now, with the version I'd like, it would look like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=America%27s_Army&oldid=8163028

When all is said and done

IF ANYONE OPPOSES MY PROPOSAL OF CHANGE OF THE AAO-ARTICLE, EXPRESS IT (with arguments) NOW, OR REMAIN QUIET AND ACCEPT IT. IF THERE'S NOONE OPPOSING IT, I'LL CALL THE DISPUTE, THE EDIT CONFLICT, FINISHED IN TWO DAYS AND OFFICIALLY CALL FOR IMMEDIATE UNRPOTECTION OF THE SITE.
I don't think anyone agrees with your "proposal" to be flat out honest here. I've opposed it as well as two others. You can't just "call the conflict" because you've driven everyone away. This is supposed to be a time of compromise etc, but nothing has been compromised on. The best we did there was decide that we can use that one screenshot, which regardless of that you went and overwrote. Shame. K1Bond007 18:04, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, but I see neither you nor anyone else opposing the version. Just you and two other guys REVERTED it obviously without thinking about it. You're still not opposing anything with arguments but thanks for letting me know you're against it. But the simple fact that you're against it provokes a "I don't care feeling" unless you add the why-part to the fact that you disagree.

LOL we told you many times. It was either reverted due to copyright infringement or because it was extremely POV. I don't think it's that hard to understand. The "why part" has been explained so many times on my end it's pointless for me to continue to type it out. You don't get it anyway.

You claimed a very old one (it is not the version we're discussing right now) was a copyright infrigtion but I don't believe that either. It belongs more to a copyright infrigation than just that one sentence appears from one article with copyright in another article. It wouldn't make any sense, you know that. And you even exaggerated that claiming it was even more a copyright infrigation when I changed some words in that old version. From a logical propsect it wouldn't make ANY sense at all. From the legally prospect, of course, it wouldn't make any sense at all either. But we're just talking about this very old version. I don't think it's that hard to understand either. You also failed to explain why it was POV. I replied to any of your pointless accusations and you started to change the topic and just didn't reply anymore... Now you're digging again in that old stuff only to confuse persons reading this and trying to delay the outcome of the solution of this. There hasn't been any why-part for the version I'd like to realize either so it's indead pointless for you to say anything against it since there's nothing against it.

You see? Just like at school: opinion+REASON FOR OPINION. I've driven no one away. The simple fact that there were no arguments against my version and the simple fact that the other version is protected (for own stubborness) drives them away. It's time for a compromise???? The last version I wrote WAS a compromise but it was rejected for being a compromise and not the same version as before. (I don't care a damn about the "screenshot". The one now is still advertisement for the game like the one before. It's just that it was the cover of the game. There are two options: either screenshot or cover. I picked "cover" because you would have opposed any screenshot anyway. "Your" old "screenshot" wasn't even a screenshot, it was just an advertisement picture for the new maps from the main page of the game. How many times do I have to explain to you this?? You're always trying to dig in what has already been went through.)

You're so blind to whats going on here it's disgusting. Andre quit or perhaps you've forgotten. I know I said I quit in the past, but until some sort of compromise or someone else enters the discussion, I'm done with the article. I'm tired of your BS. K1Bond007 01:58, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)

Why's that disgusting? Because someone had other views than you? Because this someone could argue more reasonable than you and had something like arguments? Or are you trying to combine your allegation with the fact that Andre quit. Of course, he does! He's had HIS version protected, he knew that he couldn't come up with plausible arguments and why should he waste his time distracting and digging despite the fact that it's HIS version protected?? You still haven't come up with reasons against my compromise-version and don't you come up pretending you're trying to search for a compromise because a compromise was what was pointlessly ignored, called "vandalism" (to have the other version protected and chosen) and then NEITHER OF YOU HAD AND STILL HAS NO ARGUMENT AGAINST MY COMPROMISE-VERSION (as you can see, the section "still to change" is still not opposed).

Here are my objections to the page in its current state - there would be more if I included some of the things you have been trying to add.
  • "The age of U.S. soldiers is merely 20 on average.". This statement is wrong and not all that relevant anyway. A quick google reveals the average age of casualties in Iraq to be 27. I couldn't find the overall average, but I suspect it to be older than 20.Grover9 05:51, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Why do you say it's "wrong" if you haven't found the average age of a US soldier on the internet? How do you know? It might be wrong, it might be right. But it is irrelevant at any rate so leave that sentence out.62.134.104.253 15:23, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • "America's Army is a figurative and written type of message presentation". I'm not sure exactly what this bit is trying to say, but it needs rewording.Grover9 05:51, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Any suggestions?Nightbeast 21:57, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • The game doesn't use the term Terrorist. The enemy are always referred to as Opposing Forces, Resitance Forces or simply Enemy Forces. Americas Army is not a SWAT vs Terrorist game like counter-strike. I think we should pick a term for each side and use it consistently throughout the article, otherwise it gets too confusing because of both teams seeing themselves as US forces. Opposing Forces is probably the clearest and most neutral term for the enemy.Grover9 05:51, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sorry but you must be kidding, grover: at least the map descriptions of 9 different maps refer to the enemies as terrorists or terrorist forces. And America's Army IS a governmental power vs Terrorist game with the player always seeing the enemy as terrorist and himself as SWAT or US Army or whatever.Nightbeast 21:57, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I did actually check the descriptions, but must have missed the ones that called the enemy terrorists. Anyway if the game calls them that, then its fine in the article.Grover9 06:18, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • "Unlike in Counter-Strike, you can't join the "Terrorists" and you don't buy your equipment". That tells us nothing about Americas Army, only that it doesn't do something that counterstrike does. What does Americas Army do instead? Some of this is convered later on in the US/OPFOR transormation section, but I think that information should be integrated into the gameplay section.Grover9 05:51, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Comparing CS's gameplay with America's Army, there are only these few differences. Some like CS, others don't but still many millions of gamers know CS so it might make sense to compare these two. To examine the hand out of the weapons in the game or the US/Opfor transformation would take too much space in the gameplay-section but it shouldn't be left out or otherwise players would think it's completely like CS.Nightbeast 21:57, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I just don't think refering to counter-strike so many times helps explain anything at all. Many people don't play counter-strike and to them the article is going to be confusing.Grover9 05:51, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

As I read through the sentence, I must admit it's indeed a bit confusing. Maybe a reference to US/OPFOR Transformation could fit. Something like "(read more at US/OPFOR Transformation, below)". Or the entire paragraph about the transformation could just be ushered there instead of in the category "Realism" (I don't don't think it has much to do with realism... which doesn't mean it's unrealistic but it's just a feature that isn't connected to realism. But then maybe the "Gameplay" section would become to large... "and you don't buy your equipment" is pretty confusing at any rate. The reader won't get to know how the class selection actually works. I don't think the allocations of weapons should be left out, but it shouldn't be explained to detailed either. The reference to CS isn't necessary either but, like I said, these two points shouldn't go unmentioned.62.134.104.253 15:23, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • "In contrast to Counter-Strike, the developers of America's Army have done little so far to prevent spying ghosts from communicating with those still playing.". What does mentioning counter-strike add to the article? It would be better to compare to UT2004 which has built-in voice chat and uses the same engine as Americas Army and mention how this feature should be appearing in a future version of Americas Army and should solve the majority of the complaints regarding ghosting.Grover9 05:51, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Built in voice chat? Like "Area secured"? That's JUST what CS has. UT2004 has except for the engine (is it UT2004??? You sure??) almost nothing in common with America's Army... and the voice chat of UT is not very comparable either... "YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUU WHOOOOOOOOOORE!", "YOU BLEED BETTER THAN YOU SHOOT!", "PAIN WILL PURIFY YOU!" "AAAAAAAAAAAND STAY DOWN!" "YOU FIGHT LIKE NALI!" "DIE, BITCH!"...Or are you talking of in-game said-by-player voices? But as far as I know CS has the same. But why should that block ghosting to any extent? A strict black-screen after death, just like some CS servers have, could prevent ghosting completely and that the one and only possibility to prevent ghosting. But I don't know, maybe the developers think a black screen might depict death in a way that they don't like.Nightbeast 21:57, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The reason the game doesn't have a black screen is because many players have said they don't want it. It would be useful for competition games though, but I'm not sure if its a planned feature. AA uses the unreal engine(UT2003), which will be updated to the UT2004 engine in the next patch (maybe 2.4 I'm not sure exactly). I meant in-game said-by-player voice chat. You are right, it wont stop people from ghosting, but most people wont bother using 3rd party voice programs anymore and the ingame voice chat doesn't allow dead players to talk to alive ones.Grover9 06:18, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • "Many critics of the game feel that these aspects, normal in first-person shooters, should not be present in something that claims to represent the army, to whatever degree.". Which critics? The gameplay section should concentrate on the facts of the gameplay. This part belongs in the controversy section.Grover9 05:51, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That sentence is totally pointless... That's why I changed it in that other version.Nightbeast 21:57, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • "Ironically, the trigger for most "account thefts" was a warning message on the official website that warned users not to share the file containing the password." How did the warning message trigger "most acount thefts"? I can't see how this is possible. The entire section on account thefts is full of inaccuracies and POV phrasing. You blame the developers for not encrypting the password, then accuse them of causing paranoia for warning them about letting people have access to the file in question.Grover9 05:51, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That's not from me so I can't give you any answer either.Nightbeast 21:57, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • "The first person to reach 100 Honor was a foreigner and has never got his account back.". What are you trying to imply here? That foreigners have their accounts stolen off them for the sole reason of reaching 100 honor? There is no way to know why this persons account was banned (or if this person exists and had their account banned in the first place - link?) so it should be removed.Grover9 05:51, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Same thing: That's not from me so I can't give you any answer either.Nightbeast 21:57, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)


When y'alls've finished this hyar text-mode shoot-'em-up howzabout the last one standing unlock the article and add an ext link to (RIP) Gary Webb's article? Kwantus 17:40, 2004 Dec 13 (UTC)

Serious Game

It's interesting that you want to connect your article about "serious game" and America's Army but it's laughable. The public version of America's Army is not even meant to be a simulation. It's meant to be a recruiting and puplic relations tool. In what way does it train???? How to act in a battle???? Is the game supposed to make its players a fighting mashine??????? Well, if you think so, then EVERY first-person shooter would do just that. Players of first-person shooters are often good soldiers, they say. If America's Army is a simulation, Counter-Strike should be a simulation as well. Or where is the border between a usual and a serious game?? Is there one or is it based on capriciousness?? And "success of America's Army" is based on capriciousness too. How much money did they earn when selling it? How much players are there? How much popularity it has received? Was the game worth its expenses? and so on. Besides, isn't "The Sims" not a serious game and more successful??? And America's Army is the "highest profile"??? What?? How about you explain your thoughts before just adding them to link your article (which should be examined as well in my opinion). Oh and start collecting background information to present some facts as well.

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