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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Pipian (talk | contribs) at 19:32, 9 June 2003. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Can' find the japanese names convention. I think there should be a wikipedia page for HowTo write family name and first name for japanese people. IMHO: In Japan Utada Hikaru is only known this way and not that way: Hikaru Utada. Also the Kanjis and Katakana on the linked page Hikaru Utada saying Utada Hikaru and not Hikaru Utada. It's the same for Ayumi Hamasaki and Nobukazu Takemura. anobo 05:21 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

That's the problem: There is no convention. Even the biography page says so. IMHO though (I'm the one fiddling with Utada's page at the moment and I wrote the initial stub) If written in Romaji, it should be western-style (so those of American/European origin, who are most likely to interpret such names, will not get confused), but when written in kanji, it should be written Japanese style. I personally brought the issue up again on the Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies) page. Another reason I side with Western-order with Japanese names in romaji is that, in many cases where Japanese names are becoming more visible in Western environments, they are being viewed in Western-order.
Hikaru Utada has been called such in New York Times articles. A strange case, however can also be seen in Time magazine articles, in which Hikaru's name is listed in Japanese order, but her parents' names (in the fifth paragraph) are in normal Western-order.
Chances are though, when Hikki releases her first album over here supposedly this Fall, she will likely go by "Hikaru Utada" and not "Utada Hikaru". Same goes for "Yuki Kajiura" who is releasing her new album "Fiction" over here in the States at the beginning of July.
Thus, it's clearly an uncertain choice, but due to the fact that Wikipedia (English version) is designed for an English-speaking Western-cultured audience, assuming that they know little to no knowledge of Japanese names, I favor Western style names for Romanized names (though original order can be kept when written in the original script).
-- Pipian 05:40 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)
As I started the Agatsuma page I moved this page to Agatsuma Hiromitsu, because I found such a disambiguation page. Now I don't know :-). But, Hikaru Utada sounds a _little bit_ funny to me. :-) anobo 06:00 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Concerning Japanese_name 3rd paragraph the family name is placed first. anobo 05:36 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Yes, traditionally it is. However, there is no official Wikipedia convention regarding how they are to be named in Wikipedia. -- Pipian

The trouble is that as an english language encyclopædia wiki has to follow naming conventions that are understood by english language users, even if a different system of naming is followed in Japan. So if in english Utada Hikaru is known as Hitaru Utada, then english wiki would have to go by Hitaru Utada, though a Japanese wiki would needless to say use Utada Hikaru. We have to use a format that can be understood by users of wiki, and on this wiki, that is english language users and they have traditionally inverted Japanese names. One or two users did try to change a lot of names around but got into rows with other Japanese people on wiki who said that it was wrong to apply strict native Japanese naming on a non-Japanese source, hence right now some are in Japanese form, a lot in english form. Attempts to agree on naming conventions for Japanese fell into all sorts of difficulty, with the draft convention which one user inserted as a convention being overtaken by events and so being in a form of limbo.

Wiki in general does not go by native names but by english names or english variants of native names unless people are known internationally by the native form. Hence Russian Tsars are named in english, not Russian, for example. But Cearbhall Ó Dálaigh, a former Irish president is named in gaelic because that form of name was used also when referring to him in english. Ultimately wiki has to follow english naming conventions on english wiki, Japanese naming conventions on a Japanese wiki, Chinese naming conventions on a Chinese wiki, etc. FearÉIREANN 06:01 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

You have a good point but the trouble is this is not the case always. For example, try searching Utada Hikaru and Hikaru Utada in Google, and you should get more results with Utada Hikaru. It is weird in English writing but Utada Hikaru is more common in fact. Besides, in history, the East-Asian name order is usually common such as Oda Nobunaga not Nobunaga Oda. I don't intend to dispute which one is more accurate or natural in English writing but I am just telling that the reality is so confusing, inconsistent than what we want. -- Taku 06:27 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)
This is a very good point. However, it's not always easy to judge what the anticipated name would be. Now honestly, there are more hits for "Utada Hikaru" than "Hikaru Utada", but admittedly, how many of these additional hits are from Japanese websites listing her English name as typically used in Japan? Furthermore, it's confusing to have mixed and matched names (Ayumi Hamasaki turns up more hits in Western style, but Hikaru Utada as Eastern style... That makes for confusing results for someone searching Wikipedia). And on top of that, popular sources such as the New York Times and Time magazine may favor the Western-style despite the popularity of Eastern-style on the web, not to mention changes due to introducing artists to the West, where Japanese artists will actually switch their names around to appeal to Western culture. (Time magazine however, is an odd case. See my response on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies), where I mention how Time magazine uses Hikki's name in Japanese-style, but her parents in Western-style)
Furthermore, though perhaps certain names, like Utada's, are normally listed in Japanese-style (In fact, I'll openly admit (now that I remember correctly) that Utada's stage name of "Utada Hikaru" was specifically chosen to be in Japanese-style), most other Japanese names nowadays are listed in Western-style (refer to your favorite Squaresoft/Nintendo/Sega/etc. game's manual for examples)
I primarily agree with Fear though, as the aim of the English Wikipedia IS for the English-speaking audience that is used to names that are in Western-style. Going with Japanese-style may be more correct and get more hits, but for people using Wikipedia to actually learn new things about Japanese/Oriental culture, having had no previous experience with Japanese naming, they are going to assume that "Utada Hikaru" has a first name of "Utada", and not "Hikaru", regardless of intent.
I've got a question though: does anyone remember how Hikki's name was listed in the Kingdom Hearts ending? Or do I need to go and beat that again to see? I do know that the manual lists her name as "Utada Hikaru."
I think the real question though (in Utada's case) is what name she will go under in America: her Japanese stage name "Utada Hikaru" (current leading contender for the name of the page at the moment), or her Western-style name "Hikaru Utada", as the name that she chooses to use over here will no doubt have an effect on what her article will have to be named (the alternate wording merely serving as a redirect)
-- Pipian 19:27 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)
"that it was wrong to apply strict native Japanese naming on a non-Japanese source". Unfortunately, sometimes it is also wrong to apply strict English convension, which makes texts sound uncommon. I cannot say which one is right or wrong but I just want to say I am so irritatied by this difficulty. -- Taku 06:31 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)