Talk:Henri Nouwen

I know almost nothing about Henri Nouwen, but it seems strange to have him categorised as a gay writer, without any reference to him being gay in the body of the article.--Peacenik 06:59, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Sexuality

I am removing the Sexuallity section from this article because it is confusing. I left it when bearct and I were going back and forth as to how too make it relevant. But at the end of the day, It just is not a verifiable fact, though hints do exist, speculations that have come out about his sexuallity now that he has passed should not be included into a description of his life's work. It is just not relevant to the Article.

I am currently completing this article and hope to have it finished by the end of next week. My goal is to make it as factual and un-biased as possible. hence the removal of the Sexuallity article.

User:zhensley 3:46, 27 Oct. 2006

I've reverted a major crop of copyvio from this article; the matter of his sexuality definitely needs expansion, but copying and pasting other people's copyrighted words verbatim is not the way to do it. And to whoever added the final parenthetical comment that "there is no evidence to make such a claim", I hate to break it to you, but he actually stated it right in at least one of his own books, IIRC. Bearcat 10:04, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

To say Henri Nouwen is gay, or a gay writer because Ford says so, although Nouwen never once acknowledges himself as a gay writer. He mentions only his struggles, but struggle and admitting your gay are so different. For instance like someone saying they struggle with anger sometimes, is not by anymeans a rage aholic. I think it is highly unfair to write an informational article about a man of his sature, and say that he is Gay as an indissputable fact, without putting emphasis on his work. I mean Nouwen worked with the Mentally Handicaped for years. He helped reshape Christian leadership in this and the last decade with books like "in the name of Jesus", which is not once mentioned. My friend whether he was gay or not is not my issue, but I have read every and I mean every book by Nouwen and never does he say that he is gay. I have no problem being proved wrong, just prove me wrong and state the evidence. Otherwise please edit this article, because it is not factual. thank you. User:zhensley 3:10, 30 June 2006

Sexuality Removal

I want to make an appeal to have the "Sexuallity" section removed as it not actual fact. Plus shouldn't an article about a writer be more about what he wrote not what his personal strugles were? I personally would love it if Bearcat, if you could actually "break it to me". If Nouwen mentioned it in any of his books, my question is simple. What book? Show me where he said he was gay. I have been an avid Nouwen reader for the past 10 years, and have never read anything that backs your claim. Not saying it doesn't exsist, just show me. But till then there is no evidence. I'm working on compling actual, factual information on Nouwen to add to this article. I respect Wikipedia to much to have opinions presented as facts. User:zhensley 6:24pm, 20 July 2006

Let's review the facts one more time:

1. Ford was not the first source to note Nouwen's sexuality; only the most famous.
2. Ford's assertion was not based on random speculation, but on actual conversations with Nouwen and Nouwen's friends, and actual writing in Nouwen's actual personal journals.
3. Nouwen's sexuality is stated as fact in more than enough sources about him that the onus is on you to prove that those sources are wrong, not on me to second-guess and third-guess them. There isn't a single reference out there to Nouwen's sexuality which states that he wasn't gay. Most sources just don't even broach the subject of his sexuality at all; every source which does get into the subject asserts that he was gay.

As it is, the paragraph doesn't even make the disputed claim; it just says that the statement has been made in reference sources, which is true. As written, the statement is fully verifiable and appropriate to the article. Bearcat 01:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Alright I, for my own personal reference would like to know where Nouwen mentions his stuggles of his sexuality. My only contention about the article is that Noewen has never, and is not known as a homosexual, and his message, ministry, and life was centered on or about, or ever had to do with sexuallity. A factual article about his life where a fourth of it mentions questions about his sexuality doesn't seem appropriate. That's all. I'm just thinking if I wanted to find info about Nouwen, and found this article, I would get the idea that his lifes work had alot to do with sexuality, when it actually had nothing to do with it. So that's my appeal, let me know what you think

User:zhensley 2:08am, 21 July 2006

It was addressed in his private journals, known to most people who knew him personally, and revealed to the general public in a posthumous biography written by a person who read said journals and talked to said people. It doesn't have to be directly addressed in his own published writing to be relevant. Bearcat 15:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

When siting an article about ones life work, and who he was. He struggled with homosexuallity, but was never gay. It was a weakness. Bearcat, I know you have a personal agenda in promoting Gay rights and such. But this is not the place. Nouwen was never Gay, he merely strugled with homosexual tendencies. If I struggle with thoughts of wanting to kill someone, write it in my journal, and confess it to a few close friends. I hope that when I'm dead and gone, It's not posted somewhere that I was a murderer. Please I'm trying to expand this article, and I wish to leave clips such as these out....thank you. User:zhensley 8:48am, 30 October 2006

As per Bearcat above, this material is of historical interest and important to those studying the life and struggles of the man. There is absolutely no valid rationale for removing the material from this article. Haiduc 23:20, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, what meaningful distinction do you see between "gay" and "struggled with homosexual tendencies"? Except for the fact that the latter phrasing is a wildly POV take on sexuality that has absolutely no place in a neutral and unbiased discussion, I mean. Oh, and your murder metaphor is also a weak analogy; you would have to take some actual action to be a "murderer", whereas "gay" is a state of being that is not tied to action or its absence. Bearcat 18:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Anon reversions

Anon editor, why do you continually remove the sexuality section from this article? It's both verifiable and documentable — what is your issue? And why have you ignored repeated requests to discuss the matter? Bearcat 18:40, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, there's a rhetorical question if I ever saw one. =) -- Captain Disdain 22:55, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

(Hence the vprotect tag and the hidden note in the article asking the anonIP to read this page... :-) Bearcat 02:53, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Anon replies

To say "Nouwen frequently also wrote about his struggles to reconcile his faith with depression and homosexuality" is incorrect. In not one of his books did he try to reconcile his faith with his homosexuality. If you think he did, name the book? It is only in Michael Ford's book, is this issue mentioned. Sure, mention he struggled with his sexuality, I am not denying this, but this is not the major theme of his work.

The article places too much emphasis on his sexuality, but doesn't mention the themes in his work that had the most impact. It's strange that this article places a big emphasis on this when other resources such as that Henri Nouwen Society make no mention of this. Nouwen put his stamp on Christian spirituality by conveying his understanding of the belovedness of God, that we are the beloved sons and daughters of God. Books such as the Return of the Prodigal Son, Adam, Compassion, Life of the Beloved all emphasis this. Nouwen did believe what was most personal is most universal, and he always wrote from the heart eg The Inner Voice of Love. These books did reconcile his depression with his faith but not his sexuality. However, it would be true that some of his depression would have been caused by his struggle with his longing for intimacy and affection.

Nouwen himself never felt the need to make a worldwide pronouncement about his sexual orientation nor publicly debate how such an orientation would affect his writing. In light of that it the sexuality section of the article needs to be reviewed.

If you look at the last change that was made, the sexuality section was not entirely taken out. There were just a few minor adjustments.

Thank you for finally responding. I would note, however, that the appropriate response is to expand the article to discuss the themes of his writing in more depth, not to eliminate any reference whatsoever to his sexuality — that gave the appearance that you were simply trying to censor known facts about him, especially considering that until now you were removing it without explaining your reasoning at all.

In light of your comments, I've separated the themes and sexuality areas into two separate sections. I copied and pasted a bit of what you wrote here as a basic framework for the themes section, and would invite you to expand on the themes. I'd be happy to work with you to expand and improve the article, but the fact of his sexuality does need to be addressed in the article somehow, rather than simply dumped in the trash can. The aim of Wikipedia is to be as comprehensive as possible a summary of all verifiably encyclopedic information about a subject. Bearcat 18:15, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Unprotection?

I noticed that this article has been protected quite a long time despite User:Bearcat stating that the protection should be temporary. Do you feel it's been long enough? Or is there a reason I'm unaware of that the page is still protected? AmiDaniel (talk) 10:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• I had previously unprotected it once the above dispute was resolved, but it appears not to have saved properly (and I failed to notice that, apparently.) I've unprotected it again. Bearcat 19:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Reworking

The last paragraph in the introduction section (mentioning the Hong Kong writer) needs to be reworked. The problems are mostly grammer and sentence structure. I don't feel enough of an authority to make changes on this one. Thanks...

Sexuality Fiasco

It is refreshing to read the Nouwen entry and find the LGBT link and gay references removed, not because of personal bias, but simply because the entry is now more correct.

Again: the entry is not more correct with that stuff removed. Ford did not make a random guess about Nouwen's sexuality; he revealed a known-to-some but incompletely-publicized fact that was explicitly stated in Nouwen's own personal writings and discussed with Nouwen's friends and colleagues. Bearcat 22:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Dissapointing

It is extremely dissapointing that the wiki post of one of the most gentle, humble, loving, kind people ever to have lived involves a rather petty-seeming argument about his alleged sexual orientation. The gift he has given the world is around the area of grace, love and a deep acceptance of and by God and of and by the other. It is also dissapointing that there are several typos and grammatical errors, and still very little content that can give a reader a true sense of the tremendous peace and love Nouwen has given the world through his writing. As this article develops, can we focus all our efforts on spreading that gift just a little further rather than being caught up in arguments around less siginificant points? ~Cori.

Yeah Cori go for it....I personally don't have the time to make this article better. If you care, then go for it it's all your dog - zack

For what it's worth, the Themes subsection has a "this section is a stub, please expand it" template on it. If you don't think the article goes into enough depth on the themes of his writing, the appropriate response is to add your own knowledge to the article, not to come to the talk page and complain about what other people have or haven't already done. Bearcat 01:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Expand

Ok, I seriously think this article needs to be expanded. I can't do it, since i barely know anything about him, although I am currently doing a research on him. Please try to make it more informative

I've added some details regarding his work. This is my first time to do so, so I am not sure how far I should go. I personally think he has a lot of insights to share and would like to go into detail, but should I do that in a separate entry. Maybe one just for the book? - Hugihard Bold text

Journal of sacred work

I reverted this link: Journal of Sacred Work because the blog doesn't seem to tell us anything at all about Henri Nouwen, let alone anything encyclopedic. But it has been added back. Could other editors take a look and see if they think it is a useful and encyclopedic addition? Thanks. --Siobhan Hansa 20:59, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

This link is to an excellent journal of reflections sponsored by the Baptist Healing Hospital Trust. Although Nouwen is just one of the authors periodically featured, we would hope that you retain this link for people who are interested in both Nouwen and the entire reflective process. Thank you. Erie Chapman, President, Baptist Healing Trust.