Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Siling labuyo

This discussion was subject to a deletion review on 2009 November 18.
For an explanation of the process, see Wikipedia:Deletion review.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was AfD is probably not the right forum for this. I have closed it as merge to Thai pepper so that further discussion can take place as to whether these actually are the same thing. If it can be proved that they're not, then no merge need take place. Black Kite 19:38, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Siling labuyo

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The article was originally created as a redirect by User:Exec8 as a redirect to Thai pepper and nothing else. User:Lambanog expanded the article. Literally speaking, (as what the Siling labuyo lead wants to say), siling labuyo is Filipino term for Thai pepper. They belong to the same specie (both are Capsicum frutescens, and the C. frutescens article says that they are only one). Bird's eye chilies link on the lead was modified so it is ambiguous that it points to Thai pepper. Thai pepper common names section claims that siling labuyo is the Filipino term for the chili.

According to Lambanog, it is justifiable to create a separate article featuring Siling labuyo in Wikipedia because it is uncertain to taxonomist whether labuyo and Thai pepper (again, the union--they are translations of each other.) is under C. frutescens or not, but he did not cite any sources (C. frutescens article did not mention any disagreements). Finally, paraphrasing the last statement in the talk page: is that it is justifiable to create siling labuyo page because the Thai pepper article is a mess.

I add this to AFD because former PROD nomination was deleted by Lambanog without addressing any concerns.

If ever this article won't deleted, I suggest merging this to Thai pepper, especially that Siling labuyo is Filipino term (not Filipino version nor variant) of it. JL 09 ^_q?_{_c} 12:18, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have been spending a lot of timing looking up websites and references trying to pin down siling labuyo and it just keeps getting murkier instead of clearer. My interest in this subject has come about because if you walk into a Filipino supermarket there are now generally two kinds of bird's eye chili pepper one can find. One is labeled as native to the Philippines, another is from Taiwan. Both are labeled as siling labuyo yet they appear different and have different heat intensities. From the perspective of the consumer or the casual reader looking up the subject on Wikipedia I would say they are different products. Looking at the "Thai pepper" article one does not get a quick sense under what heading the native variety falls under. Maybe it's the bird's eye cultivar (portmanteau of "cultivated" and "variety" according to that link) but the name of siling labuyo is literally "wild chili" also called locally as chileng bundok (mountain chili). It's not a long time domesticated variety unlike what describing it as a cultivar suggests under "Thai pepper". I also notice there is an independent article on the African birdseye chili pepper a.k.a. peri-peri and also the pequin. They all look alike and bear some similarities. Why is it the case they have their own separate articles but the siling labuyo shouldn't? This entire field dealing with chilies is fuzzy.

The very classification of capsicum frutescens has come under attack. This article on answers.com explains it. To quote from it:

• Capsicum annuum var. annuum (first mentioned by Linnaeus, 1753). The flowers with white corollas and purple anthers are solitary at each node (occasionally two or more). The variform fruit usually has firm flesh and straw-colored seeds. A multitude of pungent and nonpungent cultivars of this Mesoamerican domesticate now dominate the worldwide commercial pepper market. A relationship between C. annuum, C. chinense, and C. frutescens has caused the three to be known as the C. annuum complex. This relationship creates a taxonomic predicament. Some authors still recognize the first two as distinct but tend to have difficulty determining where C. frutescens fits into the picture, if indeed it is a separate species. The best-known cultivars are bell, cayenne, jalapeño, serrano, pimento, poblano, New Mexican chile/Anaheim, and cherry.

• Capsicum frutescens (first mentioned by Linnaeus, 1753). Some authors no longer consider this semi-wild species of Capsicum to be sustainable. It has two or more small white to greenish white flowers with purple anthers at each node and was once considered to be a member of the C. annuum complex, which includes three white-flowered species thought to have a mutual ancestor—C. chinense, C. frutescens, and C. annuum. The small fruit with cream-colored seed is always erect, never sweet, and often two or more may occur at each node. The tabasco pepper, limited to the Western Hemisphere, is the only variety of this species known to have been cultivated commercially. Easily transported by birds, the tiny varieties of wild C. frutescens can be found throughout the world's tropical pepper belt. The cultivated varieties are closely controlled by the McIlhenny Company of New Iberia, Louisiana. The cultivars are tabasco, greenleaf tabasco, and select.

There is a lot of discrepancy and not as much unanimity on the topic as one would expect. Perhaps because of the capsicum annuum complex dilemma, I've also seen the siling labuyo classified as from capsicum chinense like here. Considering the siling labuyo is known for being a very hot pepper this actually makes the most sense since all the hotter peppers known belong to capsicum chinense.

Because of the vagueness and lack of clarity, just about the safest thing one can say from what I've seen so far is that the siling labuyo is a small bird's eye chili pepper found in the Philippines. Perhaps those pushing for the deletion should state their case for why siling labuyo and "Thai pepper" are one and the same. My sense is since they both presumably belong to capsicum frutescens and are in the same general part of the world it's just automatically assumed. I think more is required. In any event the "Thai pepper" page is woefully inadequate and doesn't seem to be an all encompassing article. There are no sources referenced in that article. Those asking for the deletion or merging of this article would do better to improve either article. If the two topics should be merged at a later date I would prefer it be done under a more general "bird's eye chili" heading. As it is one could argue that "Thai pepper" should be merged under "Siling labuyo" as much as the other way around---if they really are the same thing and I don't see any evidence presented showing that.

By the way I have been involved in a bit of an editing dispute with JL 09 and Eaglestorm recently that is still in the process of being arbitrated. I would like to assume good faith on their part but under the circumstances their eagerness to get this article deleted or merged is something I cannot help but note. I also notice just now in the above that JL 09 states "I add this to AFD because former PROD nomination was deleted by Lambanog without addressing any concerns." This is false. I added a detailed note on the talk page. [1] Edited 1 time. Lambanog (talk) 16:23, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Remember that you cannot provide new theories in Wikipedia like that they stand to be different because people assumed that they are different, hence it is justifiable to profound new things here other than stated facts in taxonomy (to quote, "I think more is required."). If the Thai article has no sources and inadequate, then, edit it. This answers.com link has no mentioning that Thai pepper and siling labuyo aren't different. This article on answers.com about Thai chili/pepper says that birds chilies are dried form of Thai pepper. This website is not a reliable source to say.--JL 09 ^_q?_{_c} 08:02, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Response. Then how about this one: Peppers of the World: An Identification Guide. Scroll down near to the bottom to find and read page 63. Lambanog (talk) 20:36, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lambanog, page 63 is under copyright protection of Google.--JL 09 ^_q?_{_c} 05:11, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I do not follow. The page is available for preview. If you are on a slow connection wait a bit and it should load. Try scrolling down to the very bottom and maybe those pages will load first. Lambanog (talk) 07:42, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. —JL 09 ^_q?_{_c} 08:05, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Philippines-related deletion discussions. —JL 09 ^_q?_{_c} 08:05, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. This one is a tough one, but what matters is verifiability, it appears that the article's subject has enough sources to meet WP:NN, however unless we can find a reliable souces stating that the two are different, I can't help but think of merging all articles under that taxonomy into a single article, with each variant given their own article, or section (at the very least). --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 10:55, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Enough results from Google News search, Google Book search, and regular Google search to show this name is widely used. If you have problem with the content, then you discuss that on the talk page, and work it out there. Verifiability not truth, is the Wikipedia rule. Dream Focus 16:02, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

At least clear reading and more research is needed to see that siling labuyo and Thai pepper are just translations of one another. If there is a dispute on taxonomy if "both" "peppers" are under frutescens or not, then we do not have the right to settle it down because Wikipedia is only an encyclopedia, not a science-dispute-settlers. The stand is that siling labuyo and Thai pepper still the same type of chili, and if there is a dispute on classifying "each" pepper whether it is on chinense or frutescens (and I guess it came from the scientific world), we can do nothing but to accept that there is really a dispute on classification, and that we cannot settle which one is true and not. As of now, what Lambanog and I see on the internet is a clear show that there is a "dispute" on classifying "them". Like what I am saying, leave it to the scientist and restore siling labuyo as a redirect as it was before.--JL 09 ^_q?_{_c} 13:50, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.