Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Khakain
It's a forum about The Legend of Zelda series. 43 unique Google hits on "khakain.com". [1] Alexa rank 2,221,730. [2] Doesn't seem to have gained enough notability to warrant an article. Likely a vanity page. --Plek 19:20, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Keep - 'A page should not be cast away as "vanity" simply because the subject is not famous. There is presently no consensus about what degree of recognition is required for a page to be included in Wikipedia, and therefore, lack of fame should be completely ignored in deletion debates.
Furthermore, it should be noted that an article is not a "vanity" page simply because it was written by its subject. Articles about existing books, movies, games, and businesses are not "vanity" so long as the content is to salient material and not overtly promotional.' Khakain 22:38, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- DELETE - I am the person who they (The members of that forum) are naming on that entry. Khakain is the name of my novel, Khakain the Coming of the Chosen One, I wrote it in 1994 and posted a few chapters on my literary site "Unlimited Fantasy". These members registered the domain name out of spite for me because I shut down their community from my Zelda video game site because they would harass other users on the community, myself, and such. I was hosting the image they think is "Max Fichtl" on my private server and it was hacked without my permission and paraded around thier own forum as some trophy. They have subsequently over the past few years on several occasions attempted to discover my personal identity. At one point in time they posted my phone number on their forum and made prank calls and harrassed my family as late as 3 AM at night. Recently after contacting the teenager, William Klassen who registered the domain and firmly asking for the entire removal of the users attempting to steal my identity, he transferred ownership that day of the domain to an Australian, Andrew Maher, to what he thinks would wash his hands of the issue. This entire entry on Wikipedia is designed to be inflamitory and harrass me. I have attempted at editing the entry 3 times already to remove personal information and harrassment, and replace the entry with the accuracy of what Khakain actually is however each time it was reverted to what it was before by members of their community who likely share the "Khakain" user account, "Castle Guard" (John M.) as well is a member of their forum classified as the "Historian." I have collected an orgy of evidence on the individuals at that forum, including the location of their colleges, and their current residencies, however this is only some of them, many have managed to remain anonymous, however they've left a digital trail online which would likely be easy to follow. Many of them pride themselves in spamming the message boards I currently am co-administrator for with Hentai Pornography and spamming bot programs. I DO NOT WANT my personal information displayed in a public location online, to have my or anyone else in my family's name slandered in that way, this is a form of online cyberstalking as defined by the FBI's computer Crimes Division, and falls under their jurisdiction because it is occuring as a conspiracy between multiple individuals from several states including countries like Canada and Australia. And if the issue is not resolved in due time, I will be pursuing whatever legal recourses are available to me up to and including litigation. I hope that the users of Wikipedia see the perspective I'm coming from and remove the entry and ban users associated with creating this filth. I want to be left alone and I want to be anonymous on the internet and go about my work in peace!
- The above from User:65.35.73.36. —Korath (Talk) 06:52, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)
- Threats of legal action are against WIkipedia policies. Recommend above editer's comments be disregarded as unsubstantiated and is likely here in ill faith. 163.153.252.70 17:37, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Comment And posting the full names of those you don't like here ISN'T some form of Cyber-Stalking? How'd you get their colleges, home addresses and what not? Hm? 208.62.7.133 18:03, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Reply It's not hard to find that out when people spam your forums and you trace their IP address and call the school's campus IT department. (That was of course before I and my co-Admin banned those people and they returned on proxy servers) As well, names and addresses are included through the registrar of the domain name. I've already consulted an attorney breifly about the issue. And to clarify, I'm not going to sue Wikimedia, however entries like this could be used as evidence should I decide to pursue a case against specific individuals, if the burden of proof is not strong enough for a criminal case, my lawyer said there was plenty enough for a winnable civil one.
- Reply This is part of the novel Khakain: The Coming of the Chosen One, submitted for evidence. http://internal.tbi.net/~max/mkhakain.htm, from my literary website Unlimited Fantasy: These Realms Drift Between Me at http://internal.tbi.net/~max/uf.htm
- Reply All this boils down to is that I want to be left alone, I don't want my name or names or photographs of myself, my family or friends posted and paraded on a public forum like Wikipedia for mockery and harrassment. It is a breach of my personal privacy. If the material is removed and the people from that forum leave me alone, I wouldn't be inclined to prosecute them, it's not something I set out to do, but I will take whatever measures necessary to protect the integrity of my identity, the quality of my work, and the security of my family.
- Reply This is Tim/Insubordinum. Take his damn picture and name off the page, and put up a disambiguation so he can have a page for his novel. This is just going to go backwards and forwards otherwise.
- Keep - Regarding vanity pages: 'The most significant problem with vanity pages is that they often discuss subjects that are not well-enough known for there to be multiple editors. Additionally, they are often "experimental" pages to which the author never returns. The quality of a Wikipedia article is often presumed to be proportional to the number of edits, so if an article is doomed to be a one-edit page, it should be deleted.'
As per the already-being-established edit history and the extent of the page's content, it is more than evident that the article serves the purpose of a collaborative effort to chronicle the history of the community, its members, and what products it has wrought (the growing subsite "Tim Hates People" being a prime example, among others -- but that's for the article, not for this page), both for new members and veterans alike.
Furthermore, regarding Wikipedia's article interests: ' As Wikipedia is, or at least aspires to be, an encyclopædia, it should contain only material that some definable group of people might want to know.'
The article already has more than enough information to be classified as a relevent information base, and obviously contains material of interest to the members of the community. In no way is it a promotional page; rather, its content more than speaks for its informational nature.- Comment by 128.61.69.109, user's first edit. --Plek 23:12, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Delete. What's the betting one of the creators of this article is the bloke in the picture? This is an irrelevent and insignificant community on the wide scale of things it is referring to (or at least Google and Alexa certainly think so). Average Earthman 23:37, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Keep - Also regarding "vanity", this community has only resided at its .com address for a little over 1/5 of its life. This was long after ties were cut with its former administrator. For this to be a vanity page, it would have to refer to itself with shameless advertising (which it does not). This is a chronicle of the community's history and portrays it accurately, showing the positives and negatives, with an unbiased point of view. --66.82.9.77 00:11, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Delete. Admitted vanity forumvertisement. —Korath (Talk) 00:34, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)(superceded below)- Where? Khakain 01:02, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Comment - At any rate, it's not an article to "spread the word," it's an article to "keep the word." It violates no deletion policies as is, and can easily be edited should problems arise. Khakain 01:07, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Keep - Speaking as a member of a community that has interacted with this one, it is nice to see the article up. I found it very informative, and it helped me write a historical overview of the war for my own webpage.--66.53.71.99 01:40, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Keep - Not advertisement for the forum, this article actually documents many things that have been passed down by word-of-mouth until now. It's good to finally be able to refer people to a website with all the info they want to know. The article does not promote the forum, but only describes it. --Fletcher00 03:28, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Above is Fletcher00's only edit. --TenOfAllTrades | Talk 03:43, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- If it's important to have a history of the forum available to new users and others, why can't it go on the forum, rather than on some external website? The content here is GFDL licensed, so you can legally copy it to a forum posting with a note about its source. --TenOfAllTrades | Talk 03:43, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Delete. Sure seems like some combination of vanity and fancruft--vanitycruft? There are countless web forums devoted to countless topics. Most are not Wikipedia material. --TenOfAllTrades | Talk 03:43, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Delete Sorry sockpuppets. God knows how many small, non notable forums there are on the internet. They don't all need articles, and neither does this. DaveTheRed 04:30, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Keep But none of those other "non-notable" communities went out and got a Wikipedia entry, did they? Seriously, I don't see how this is any of your business if we want an entry. You're simply ego tripping and I have no idea why you feel it's necessary. We created an entry to document the name and its origins, and the community is fairly large (the Empire for example, roughly 3/4 of the board's population, is underground, which you cannot see unless you've been approved). So I guess in summary, why the hell do you care so much, and do you seriously believe that you can get this deleted since it clearly does not qualify for deletion? Get a life and leave us alone. 24.194.18.242 05:12, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Uh... notability does concern us and it is our business if we want to delete this. We aren't ego tripping. If half the board is underground, well: tough luck really. That's not our choice that most of the board decided to be all dark and mysterious. I advise you to read Wikipedia:No original research. HTH. HAND. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:45, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Keep - 'It's not about promoting a forum, but recording the history. And why should anyone else but us care?' 216.78.57.72 05:16, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Delete. Cripes. Not notable, vanityvertisement. Socks begone. -- Cleduc 05:43, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Keep Just because you guys haven't heard of it doesn't mean it's not notable. 134.48.194.48 06:27, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Er, no. If most of use haven't heard of it (and there are plenty of deletes here) then it's not notable. You guys just aren't a bash.org. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:48, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- KeepI thought the purpose of this was to create a complete compendium of human knowledge. Complete would imply that it would hold everything, large and small. 69.141.223.154 06:35, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Keep This is far from a vanity article. It's a niche article (and granted, that niche may be smaller than some), detailing a part of the history of something fairly well known to a portion of the online gaming community. It by and far represents something more than the small message board community you'd see when visiting Khakain.com. This particular message board community may not be known well outside of a relatively small corner of the internet, but that does not make it less than noteworthy. Contrary to what you may believe, wikipedia is used by more than bored freshman english students patrolling articles for an egotrip. Who are you to be judge and jury of what something appeals to? Wikipedia's great reputation is that it's "a growing documentation of nearly everything." Do your best not to destroy that.170.215.192.239
- Delete, and 216.78.57.72 inadvertently explains precisely why: a forum that nobody else but its few users should care about isn't worth having an encyclopedia entry on. Use your own web space. - Mustafaa 06:47, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Delete. My personal sock puppet level of three has been radically breached. Besides, the article is sub-trivial. RickK 06:51, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)
- prove your sock puppet theory, instead of hiding behind a cop-out, please. Khakain 06:55, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Well, gee, you never existed as an editor until this article did. That makes you a sockpuppet. And all of these anons are also sockpuppets, since they don't have User IDs and didn't edit prior to the creation of this article. That makes you and all of them sockpuppets. RickK 06:59, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)
- Well OBVIOUSLY they didn't exist before, they're trying to defend a project that we started and for some reason you people feel the need to all dump on. They're not familiar with wikipedia other than reading it, so I'm sorry they don't meet your ELITE standards of 'worth'. Thanks a bunch, feel real welcome here. Khakain 07:08, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- We get lots of people coming in here and trying to create articles about their pet web forums. It's nothing personal about you or your forum -- most web forums are not notable enough for encyclopedia articles. And the onrush of anonymous editors make people very edgy because vandalism is a major part of the forum participants who want to try to get us somehow to figure that if they attack the encyclopedia and its participants enough, somehow that will make us see the light and decide that, yes, by golly, that forum populated by vandals and personal attackers must be, somehow notable after all. RickK 07:11, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)
- You delete my comment calling someone a nerd and write here calling us vandals? How is this any different? Have you even BEEN to the forum? I personally don't care what you folks "get all the time," we obviously have not been here before and have no interest in your arguments about what usually goes on or how things usually work. We're here to defend our article on the basis that there is no reason for it to be deleted. It's factual, informative, and any of the thousands of users involved in the Zelda Forum scene in the past 6 years would be interested in its contents. Whether or not you personally think we're famous enough should not be the subject of a debate. 24.194.18.242 07:17, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Anon: wrong. If we decide you aren't notable enough, then your article gets deleted. Personally, I think this article is not neutrally written, and it is not written in an encyclopedeic (sp?) manner. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:40, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- You delete my comment calling someone a nerd and write here calling us vandals? How is this any different? Have you even BEEN to the forum? I personally don't care what you folks "get all the time," we obviously have not been here before and have no interest in your arguments about what usually goes on or how things usually work. We're here to defend our article on the basis that there is no reason for it to be deleted. It's factual, informative, and any of the thousands of users involved in the Zelda Forum scene in the past 6 years would be interested in its contents. Whether or not you personally think we're famous enough should not be the subject of a debate. 24.194.18.242 07:17, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- We get lots of people coming in here and trying to create articles about their pet web forums. It's nothing personal about you or your forum -- most web forums are not notable enough for encyclopedia articles. And the onrush of anonymous editors make people very edgy because vandalism is a major part of the forum participants who want to try to get us somehow to figure that if they attack the encyclopedia and its participants enough, somehow that will make us see the light and decide that, yes, by golly, that forum populated by vandals and personal attackers must be, somehow notable after all. RickK 07:11, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)
- Well OBVIOUSLY they didn't exist before, they're trying to defend a project that we started and for some reason you people feel the need to all dump on. They're not familiar with wikipedia other than reading it, so I'm sorry they don't meet your ELITE standards of 'worth'. Thanks a bunch, feel real welcome here. Khakain 07:08, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Well, gee, you never existed as an editor until this article did. That makes you a sockpuppet. And all of these anons are also sockpuppets, since they don't have User IDs and didn't edit prior to the creation of this article. That makes you and all of them sockpuppets. RickK 06:59, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)
- Note to all first-time editors: Just adding "keep" votes from anonymous IPs or sockpuppet accounts is not going to help. Those votes are most likely going to be disregarded by the administrator who will process this entry. Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy. If you think this article should stay, improve it, so other Wikipedians would want to keep it on its own merits. --Plek 06:56, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Given 65.35.73.36's comment, and a closer reading of this "article", I'm inclined to say speedy as personal-attack vandalism. —Korath (Talk) 06:59, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)
- This article contains no personal attacks. It is entirely factual in every way and I challenge you to prove otherwise. Not that proof is something you people seem to need around here. 24.194.18.242 07:10, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Personal attacks will be deleted. If you can't argue on the merits of the article, then you might want to find another place besides here to post. RickK 07:06, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)
- Delete, and recommend that all anonymous IPs that have signed should know better and register an account. To the admin who counts the votes, may I suggest we don't count the anons? Looks pretty suspicious to me. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:39, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Keep, and recommend that the above poster stop making assumptions. It would be silly for all of us to register an account if we're only going to use it to defend our own page from you people. None of your arguments make sense in the least. 163.153.252.70 17:34, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Delete - straight up web forum vanity. -- Cyrius|✎ 08:43, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Delete, it's one big unsourced attack page. --iMb~Mw 08:49, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Delete unless it's established why this message board stands out from any other. - Vague | Rant 08:54, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)
- Keep, if only to spite these supercilious people mewling about how it's not "worthy" enough for them, and anyone who disagrees must be a sockpuppet. What harm is it doing if it stays? Leave it alone.
- Unsigned comment above by User:172.212.81.23, first edit from this IP. --Plek 09:39, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Delete as vanity. Radiant! 11:04, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)
- Delete. Gamaliel 18:32, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Comment to new editors: You won't convince us of anything by arguing with us about our own rules and policies or trying to convince experienced editors that you have a better idea of what Wikipedia is than they do. What will convince people is objective evidence of notability such as google hits, news articles, etc. Gamaliel 19:19, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Reply Ignoring the points that have been made and riding on your claim to "experience" doesn't prove much either.