Talk:Chinese Canadians

Could you provide evidence about the difficulties "newcomer Chinese" have in Canada? I'm not implying that they don't have any, but the article would be more persuasive if evidence were provided. Trontonian

The major difficulty is to live on, that is, to pay the all tax and the grocery. And that requires money, so I already mentioned "difficult to get into any of the careers of their choice". But remember, they are always "some", perhaps "many", but there's no "all ___ find it..." But if you're looking for statistical evidence, that I do not have. Statistic Canada doesn't do unemployment on such a detailed level, I think.

--Menchi 00:07 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Maybe you are asking why, if they're qualified, unable to get the jobs they like. A main reason is the lack of guanxi, or "network based on relationships". Some newcomers do have influential and "successful" relatives or good friends already in Canada. A minority have White acquaintance and who are willing to help eagerly. But another minority came here alone, with only the nuclear families. And perhaps due to an introvert nature or chance or a series of disappointing failures, the families remain can't establish deep or helpful guanxi. Such families encounter the difficulties I mentioned that caused their, or at least some of the members', one-way "returns". --Menchi 00:20 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

While doing some edits I found many other assertions which need to be documented. For example, how do we know that the Fujianese immigrants of the late 20th century were uneducated? Where does the information about acculturation (or the lack of it) come from? And so on. Trontonian

They -- the adults -- mostly require translations, so I don't think they were educated very well in English, an essential part since middle school and definitely universities. If they're educated, they'd know this is illegal, and they'd immigrate legally, like most people. And if they're poor and educated, I don't know how they paid for their universities. Refugees who came from boats are generally farmers and fishermen. It's not like poltical refugees. This is a common knowledge among Taiwanese (especially from newspaper), because we actually get, or used to get, a lot of Fujianese boat-refugees as well. Most were sent back as well.

And acculturation cannot be measure by statistics or science. It's a continuum. Linguistic command can be a key indicator, but there is also an understanding of the way European-Canadian think. And those activities, such as overwhelmingly listening to Chinese pop can easily reduce one's chance to be acculturated, since the time spent on Canadiana is greatly reduced as a result.

Thanks for bringing up those points that could use some clarification. I don't know everything about Chinese Canadians, even though I'm one myself, but those are what I understand.

--Menchi 00:07 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

So in other words you can't substantiate the assertions in this article (I realize it's not originally yours) and you are not even interested in substantiating them. Your statements about Fujianese, for example, are justified by speculation. As for scientific measures of acculturation, there are tons of them. I was peripherally involved 20 or 25 years ago in a study by Ming-Che Yeh of acculturation of Chinese-Canadian school children in Toronto. He found clear patterns of acculturation using reliable measures. It was a lot more interesting than the speculation and stereotyping (of Fujianese, for example)in this article. Trontonian

First of all, I think there are a lot of stereotypes in this article. But that's ok, eventually they will be worked out, some will stay, and some will be re-worded...

Nuclear family refers to a mom,dad,2 kids, as far as I know. Immediate family refers to the mother-father-children unit. I think you mean to say immediate family, not nuclear.

I don't understand your point about Chinese students going into mostly engineering, science, and commerce? Does Chinese culture really value these areas higher than others? Or a better question, do they value them more than non-Chinese Canadians do? (I don't think so). It makes sense that there are not that many Chinese in English majors programs for example, because it would be very difficult for someone to do this as a second-language. Although, this is not even correct because I knew a guy who was in English at UBC and English was his second language. I think the point in the article should be restated so that it doesn't generalize and stereotype so much. Perhaps mention that it is obvious why there are more Chinese students in Engineering than say, English.

dave 05:15 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

If you find a stereotype "All Chinese Canadians wear red", change it.

Yes, the science/commerce inclination is how many Chinese Canadians themselves perceive so and white high school teachers wonder why. And there are always exceptions (I know one Taiwanese-born Canadian who majors English too).

Maybe this CBC woman's autobiography will give you some ideas that it's not my own observation. --Menchi 05:54 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Why is the following POV and deleted?

Such attitudes and ideas that Chinese Canadians, first-generations or their descendants, are "foreigners" in Canada who replace "Canadians" and their jobs is still a persistent and unofficial image in the Canadian society.

Haven't you seen people who speak like this in newspapers, in classrooms, on TV? Some politicians even think like this. This isn't just about jobs either. Some non-Chinese parents explicitly state that their kids couldn't get into universities because the Asian kids push the required % up. This isn't my "point of view". Are you deny this just because you and your family and friends don't think or say so? Maybe you think they are the "minority" and don't represent Canada -- that's a possibility what I conveyed: I said, "a...image in" not "the...image of". But are they really that rare? I don't have the stats, but that's not what I wrote anyway.

--Menchi 05:54 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I don't know if I deleted that or somebody else did. However, although i will grant that there are people who think like that, I think it needs to be re-worded and the prevalence of such views clarified before it gives a clear picture of Canadian society. In particular it needs to be substantiated. If you think people who think like this are a majority then provide the evidence. Seeing a few people say something on the TV doesn't mean that everybody is saying it. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, and among other things an encyclopedia is supposed to be factual. As I said before, I'm not saying you're wrong, but if you're presenting this as an encyclopedia article then there should be some evidence that you're right about the contentious points here. By the way, I removed "uneducated" because no one seems able to substantiate the validity of the description and because consequently it seems highly offensive to me in many ways. If you have data about the refugees' educational attainment then put it in the article. I also replaced "facilities with "detention camps," which is more precise. Trontonian

Menchi, I believe I deleted that line. I believe it is too stereotypical, and has no facts to back it up. I guess you could say that I don't agree with it, so that's why I took it off. There was enough doubt in my mind that it was the opinion of the majority of Canadians. I am a 4th generation Canadian and I'm from Richmond, BC which is 33% Chinese (according to Statscan). Of course I see them as "foreigners" for the first year or so, everyone does that's what they are. That's what anyone is until they settle down in their new location. I am in Ontario now, and I consider myself somewhat of a "foreigner" there now. However, I do not consider all Chinese people in Canada as foreigners. They are Canadians. Especially if they manage to get citizenship, they are Canadians. I have never thought that Chinese people are replacing jobs in Canada. This is not the 19th century. In fact in engineering, people who's first language is English still have the upper-hand as far as getting jobs. The article even says this, that many people leave to get jobs in China/Hong Kong after university. But the influx of Chinese into BC has caused the economy to grow proportionatly larger, so I don't feel they have replaced anyone. And about pushing up the % to get into university, I don't mind. If they can get into university that's fine, I don't mind. If it makes it harder for non-Chinese to get in, I don't care. I'm just glad we don't have affirmative action like in that United States. It would be stupid to let in a certain percentage of non-Chinese every year, if there were more-qualified Chinese students. dave 18:04 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The problem with this article is that it deals heavily in what seem to be stereotypes -- of Chinese, of Chinese Canadians, and of non-Chinese Canadians. I suspect that at least some of these seeming stereotypes could be shown to have some validity in the aggregate, though, and the article would be vastly improved if they were. I am disappointed that the authors are not interested in doing that. If they don't do it, eventually the speculative nature of the assertions made in the article is going to have to be noted. Trontonian

It's like saying "Many First Nations have been living in poverty and have low education". That has statistics, because people did it. And the fact has been broadly broadcasted. Last time I checked, "Chinese Canadian studies" isn't popular. I don't claim to be an expert, but I wrote what I know. They are not my speculations, they may be based on only the majority of the group, but we have met those people in our lives everyday. They are not the Fu Manchus. They are real, in our lives. And if you think living beings and their ways of lives are "stereotypes". Sure, go ahead and disappoint at the author's lack of interest, as you put it, and change "many" to "98.43%" and "some" to "34.3%".

Chinese Canadians does include people of all walks of lives. Heck, there's the politician and there's prostitute. But are most people in those two extremes of professions? No. Are most people respected or hated? No. But because a relatively recent history in Canada, we still have a strong link to each other -- unique traditions, a sense of honour, shame -- that make the traditional familial lives (especially rooted in the parents) that differ from the White majority. As a result, many of us, say, eat rice more often. (And nope, not all of us can use chopsticks.) The majority of recent immigrants represent an especially narrow sub-sect of the Chinese population of China, so there are even more specialization.

Those famous Chinese Canadians are just a small # who are very "successful". Actually, all but half a dozen Chinese-American I have met (not necessarily know) are within the first two-generations. This is just the beginning. Divergence will surely arrive, but they have barely started. Again, should we and can we say that "There is about exceptions to this phenemon", "Please note that a minority also", "However, there is occasionally", "But some do in fact", to everything we write. No, they are not absolute truth. But they are truth.

--Menchi 19:25 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Menchi, I agree with some of what you are saying. However, stereotypes are stereotypes no matter what the context. They are always harmful to everyone. They are either harmful to the Chinese Canadians, for placing them into a grouping which they may not belong too. Or they are harmful to non-Chinese Canadians (like when the article previously said: "most Canadians think of Chinese Canadians as foreigners"). And as Torontonian said, stereotypes do not belong in an encyclopedia. I do like the history section, as there are lots of books written on the Chinese in the 1800s and early 1900s by Chinese and non-Chinese authors, and I feel there is a lot of "fact" out there on this topic, having read one fiction-based book and one non-fiction book on this topic myself. The Education, Chinese-born, and Canadian-born sections need some work to make them NPOV through negotiations with all editors. dave 23:23 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I agree, now I re-read the "Most Canadians think ...as foreigners". It does not sound particularly sweet or endearing.
I think "the now" (esp. Education, Jobs) is as important as "the then" (History section).
It seems my grasp of "stereotypes" is incomplete, so, please A the Q on "occasional difficulties" one section below.

--Menchi 00:25 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Did Canada really have a minimum wage in the 1800's? Rmhermen 14:58 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I doubt it. I guess he just meant "very low wages". It should be re-worded I guess. dave 18:04 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

No, I didn't think of the term in the politics-economics way when I wrote it. (I didn't study either at university!) I reworded ("below minimum" -> "at minimal"). --Menchi 19:25 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

"Many first-generation children who spend their entire childhood and adolescence in Chinese regions may find, without proper guidance, that it is extremely difficult to fit into the mainstream Canadian culture, and have thus isolated themselves individually or in a small group of Chinese-speaking Canadians."

I think this is stereotypical IMHO. Actually, I think most Chinese adapt to Canadian culture very well, which is helped by the fact that Canada is a very accepting country, and by the fact that there isn't anything really special about Canadian culture...it is somewhat of a "melting pot", as they say. I don't know if it is true that they isolate themselves. I don't consider Chinese people hanging out with Chinese people "isolation". Of course if you move to any country, you will meet up more often with people of the same language. But isolation is more extreme. The Chinese people I went to high school with were very active, and definitely did not isolate themselves. In university I became friends with a couple Chinese students in my class and the three of us actually used to sit next to each other, shared our homework answers, and did a project together. I am not trying to ignore the problems that some Chinese may have when moving to Canada. I just think that this is not NPOV. dave 23:23 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

So, the sentence "most Chinese-Cdn mix into the non-Chinese Cdn society nicely with occasional difficulties" is a better description of the contemporary Canadian society, hence not stereotypical? --Menchi 00:22 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

No, I don't think that is a better way of putting it. I think the paragraph should be removed, because it is not a unanimous opinion, and everyone's experience is different. An encyclopedia should have facts, and then direct people to authors, books, web links, etc.. where they can find more personal opinions of Chinese or non-Chinese Canadians. dave 02:03 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Sorry Dave. Though an encyclopedia entry should redirect people to authors, books, web links, etc.. where they can find more personal opinions of Chinese or non-Chinese Canadians, would you regard firsthand information from a

first-generation Chinese Canadian who spend one's entire childhood and adolescence in Chinese regions more accurate than authors, books, web links, etc.? Unfortunately not enough mainstream or Chinese researches have been done collectively on this issue. kt2 06:13 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Dave, the quote was quite accurate on the first generation Chinese children though the wording of "isolation" and "extremely difficult" would be considered a bit harsh. Sharing homework answers and project duties do not classify anyone as isolated or involved because it's simply too little interactions. In Cegep, I studied with students of Iranian, local Canadian, Russian, Vietnamese and Quebecois origins and still participated in Chinese-related activities than anything else. IMHO, If the people, peers who the first generation Chinese frequently shared their hardship, feeling, experiences with are also Chinese, we would considered them "isolated". Note that "children who spend their entire childhood and adolescence in Chinese regions" is the idea of the quote. Canadian high school Chinese children, first generation or not, does not spend their entire adolescence in Chinese regions.kt2 01:37 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

First of all, if someone spends their entire childhood and adolescence (from ages 12-19) in China, then how can they still be called "children" as in the quote? I agree that the words "isolation" and "extremely difficult" are not correct. dave 02:03 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

okay, "children" is irrelevant. Here's my revision: "Many first-generation Chinese Canadian who spend their entire childhood and adolescence in Chinese regions may find, without proper guidance, that it is occasionally difficult to fit into the mainstream Canadian culture, and have thus connected themselves in a small group of Chinese-speaking Canadians." kt2 06:13 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)