User talk:Bretagne 44

Come on then lets have it, out with it. Spit is out then!

Salut! Bravo ; tes contributions jusqu'ici sur la Cornouailles sont magnifiques ! Dis-donc, tu parles cornique, par hasard ? Parce que je suis toujours à la recherche des cornouphones pour contribuer à kw – dont je suis pour l'instant le seul contributeur actif. Comme c'est triste la solitude ! Ciao et bravo, QuartierLatin1968 03:09, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Salut, non je suis desolé, je ne parle pas Cornique à ce momont. Maintenant j'habite à Paris et il faut que j'apprenne le Francais et pour les Britaniques la langue étrangère est un vrai boulot. Mais apres j'ai envie d'apprendre les langues Bretonne et Cornique a Paris. Cependant il y a beaucoup de cornouphones qui peut etre vous aide.

• Agan Tavas—The Society for the Promotion of the Cornish language
• Cornish Language Fellowship

Merci pour votre encouragment

Excellent stuff

I hope you continue to contribute to Wikipedia, and that you can improve the section on modern Breton history.

Thanks for that, but i need to learn much more about Breton history first.

Cornwall

I'm sorry, but I have very little stomach to contribute to such pages. I've already had battles on subject areas I don't care about (beyond a certain general wish to see the status quo fairly represented), and have got sick of it.

Whether or not Cornwall is a county seems irrelevant to me. Flintshire is a county, but is not part of England. Greater London is not a county, but is nontheless part of England. I can't speak for the contents of the 1888 legislation, as I don't have a copy, but I can assure you the 1972 Act treats Cornwall no differently to Lancashire, and re-creates it a "county", in "England". It seems to me to be evidently a county palatine, though I know it hasn't historically been called that. An actual survey of usage over the centuries would be interesting, rather than just clipping out the pro-Cornish-nationalist highlights as seems to have been done when that section of the page was compiled. Morwen - Talk 21:28, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your response, as to the survey of usage I totally agree and i need help to do that. In fact i am going to move the information from the Cornish nationalism page to the Constitutional status of Cornwall page. I would ask though if you have very little stomach to contribute to such pages why did you contribute in the first place? "Whether or not Cornwall is a county seems irrelevant to me" that seems to be a odd attitude for someone who wants to contribute to pages about counties and add comments about the constitutional nature of Cornwall. Bretagne 44

English (people)≠Cornish (people)?

I am going to ask you one simple question. Are the Cornish people English or not? As far as I know, Cornwall is an English county just like all the others, without that meaning that all counties are the same. The culture of Cornwall differs from the culture of Northumberland, and the culture of Cumbria differs from the culture of East Anglia. Therefore there is no reasonable reason for Cornwall to be accorded any special treatment.
Anyway, to get to the point, you left a message on the Talk page of the English (people) article and it began with if you are going to include all Cornish folk as a type of English person, what does this mean? Are the inhabitants of Cornwall not English people, if not who is? Also, I don't think much of your edits to the English (people) page. The page is now centered on Cornwall and the nationalistic feelings of just SOME Cornish people. REX 13:50, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As i have said i recorded myself quite legally as Cornish (not English) on the last UK census in 2001, and in 2004 Cornish school children had the option to record their ethnicity as Cornish instead of English. These two facts mean that Cornish people have the option to describe their ethnicity or nationality as Cornish instead of English. Cornwall may have a de jure status as an English county however a large minority of Cornish folk think of themselves as Cornish not English and Cornwall as being a de facto Duchy and extraterritorial to England (but not the UK). In fact the de facto status of Cornwall as a Duchy was proved in case law in the 19th century please see the Constitutional status of Cornwall.

I think Cornwall and the Cornish merit being viewed as a constituent people and nation of the UK for the following reasons.

• Cornwall and the Cornish have had an identity distinct form the English for centuries as is evidenced by the existence of the Cornish language as a mother tongue up until the late 18th or early 19th century and the subsequent successful revival of said language in the 20thy century. The language exits also in our First, Familial and Place names.
• The Cornish had and arguably continue to have a perceived national identity other than English. I would refer you to Mark Stoyle recent book "West Britons, Cornish identities in the early modern period". Additionally on the UK census of 2001 and the recent local school census it was possible to record oneself as Cornish (as opposed to English).
• Many treaty's and documents up until the 18th century made reference to there being a distinction between Anglia and Cornubia. Additionally maps of the Isles produced up until the 18th century often showed Cornwall as a distinct entity on a par with Wales, look for the maps of CORNWALL & WALES ("Cornewallia & Wallia") 1564 at this site Mercators Atlas by walking tree press. I am happy to provide further examples if required?
• Constitutionally the nature of Cornwall and its description of being a county of England are disputed see the following wiki pages for information: Cornish nationalist, Constitutional status of Cornwall. If correct these arguments would indicate a de jure status for Cornwall as a Duchy and a crown dependency not a county of England.
• I present the following link to support my points.Look for "The Cornish: A Neglected Nation?" by M Stoyle on this BBC site

So you see REX your one simple question is just that 'simple'. Not all the people that live within what you think of as the boarders of England consider themselves English. Chechens are born in the Russian Federation but that does not make them Russians, Tibetans are born in the Peoples Republic of China but that does not make them Chinamen. Bretagne 44 22/3/05

So, what does all this have to do with the article? The article is about the people of England. If Cornwall is (de facto or de jure) an English county then it should be included in the article. I am from Durham, we too have a slightly different culture, history, form of English etc. from that of, say Kent. In November 2004 we were offered local autonomy (the NE Regional Assembly) and we rejected it even though Durham was a County Palatine and a Bishopric and part of the kingdom of Northumbria during the early Middle Ages (independent of Modern England, just like Cornwall), beacause most of us feel that England should not be divided up into parts, as if the people of each region or county were a distinct nation. However, this is what you are asking for. The article originally describes English people as a nation from England with various minor differences in each area. Do you think that the article should be named English (people) – Cornish and that there should be a separate Cornish (people) article? REX 18:49, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes maybe there should be a separate Cornish people page, what good idea. However as i have said the article before i changed it depicted all the inhabitants of Cornwall as English. Now as far as i am aware the only legal onus on me is to recognise that i am a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, there is no legal requirement for the people of the UK to call themselves Cornish, English, Irish etc etc. Bearing that in mind i have pointed out that many (not all) in Cornwall consider themselves to be Cornish and not English, i have also pointed out concrete instances of where this sense of being Cornish and not English is officially recorded and recognised. This would seem to indicate that there are people who live in Cornwall who perceive themselves to be Cornish not English and that this is officially recognised. It is your POV that they are English but it is not the POV of the office of national statistics, Cornwall LEA / county council, the Council of Europe plus others. in Durham you have a regional English identity but this is not the same as believing yourself to be other than English as is the case for many Cornish folk. So what i am after is that if you mention Cornwall in this article you should say that many Cornish do not think of themselves as English, you do not have write English (people) – Cornish just tell the truth and that is a large minority of the Cornish do not think themselves English. Please see my latest changes and tell me if they are more acceptable to you.

Below are two extract from a document produced by the human rights organisation Cornwall 2000.

1.3 The Cornish are a pre-English minority group constituting some 175,000 - 200,000 people mostly living in their historic homeland of Cornwall/Kernow. A recent survey by Plymouth University found that, if given the opportunity, over a third of pupils in Cornwall schools would identity as Cornish. Elements within the group strive to maintain their region’s constitutional position and the group’s unique social outlook, linguistic heritage and cultural identity. 1.4 UK Census 2001 carried a 'Cornish' ethnic group category. Some public authorities carry out ethnic monitoring of the Cornish. The Cornish language has been accorded international protected status. The Council of Europe has urged the Government to extend the cultural, educational and other benefits of the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities to the Cornish. Bretagne 44 23/3/05

If there truly is a Cornish nation, then it shouldn't even be on the article, which is about the English nation. A nation which is (linguistically, culturally and possibly genetically) related to the Germans, the Dutch, the Lowland Scots, the Protestants of Northern Ireland, the Danes, the Norwegians etc. Remember, a nationality may or may not be tied to a land. The English are a nation who now live all aver the world and consists of people who see themselves and are seen by others to be English. Therefore the article is not necessarily linked to England, so the Cornish don't have to be a part of it. As you have mentioned the census of 2001 allowed the inhabitants of Cornwall to choose their ethnicity (English or Cornish). Have the results of this census been published, if so, what percentage said YES? If it was the majority then there is no doubt about it, the Cornish are a distinct nation. REX 12:39, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)