Talk:George W. Bush

For older discussion, see archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 17, 18, 19, 20

Audio link

I think the audio link is a valuable addition, but I think it should be an explicit "listen" link, as used to great effect in Joseph Stalin. -- John Fader (talk | contribs) 14:09, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have two concerns about the audio link:

• Linking method: If a name is linked to an audio file, this will likely cause confusion since it's nonstandard for Wikipedia. If a "listen" link is used, it clutters the first sentence of the article.
• Audio format: Many readers will not be familiar with Ogg and may not have the appropriate software installed to play the audio clip.

I'm not saying that the link doesn't belong in the article, but we should think carefully about the consequences of adding audio to text. Carbonite | Talk 14:19, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

wrt ogg, I believe Jimbo has decreed mp3 to be verboten, along with other "non free" formats. For such short files, WAV might be an option. -- John Fader (talk | contribs) 14:23, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

True, WAV probably would be better than Ogg for a tiny clip such as the pronunciation of a name. WAV files are almost universally supported by audio software and hardware, it's only their size that can be problematic. Carbonite | Talk 14:28, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I never heard of Ogg until just now. (Please remember that some of us aren't technologically oriented.) I agree with Carbonite about not linking the first use of the name (which is confusing) and not cluttering the first sentence with a "listen" link. I'd prefer something like a listing under "See also" with a parenthetical explanation like "(listen to pronunciation in Ogg format)", or whatever format the techies decide upon. JamesMLane 14:39, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The .ogg files are the standard soundfiles for use within the wikimedia projects. For scripts other than our own, we have after the romanised word the way the word is written in the original script. In the case of GW it is the roman script. The pronunciation of words is not universal hence soundfiles with the pronunciation from someone who speaks the language a name hails from. (Try to say "Jaap de Hoop Scheffer") GerardM 17:02, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

So, did you ever bother to actually read the text on pages like Special:Upload? Maybe the part where it says "other media like this Media:File.ogg" (though admittedly, it seems to be missing some <nowiki> tags there, and I'm trying to hunt that MediaWiki/Template page down now)? --John Owens (talk) 10:49, 2005 Mar 20 (UTC)

It's just not a direction I want to see Wikipedia go. Wikipedia is an open system, I'm allowed to disagree in the early stages of an experiment. Why? It should be a separate Wiki project since it will never end and will clutter every article. Plus, it's an obvious place for more sophisticated forms of vandalism (since the .ogg format is used). Separate project. Separate site. Daniel Quinlan 19:09, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)

Amen..I vote to not have it here..link from additional info perhaps.--MONGO 10:23, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As I pointed out above, Special:Upload even uses .ogg as an example. And if you spent any time at Commons, you might have noticed an even more blatant statement of "Use the JPEG format for photographs, GIF for animations, PNG format for other images and Ogg Vorbis for sound files." Like it or not, it seems Ogg is the Wiki Way as far as sound goes. --John Owens (talk) 10:49, 2005 Mar 20 (UTC)

If the link to the audio clip were in a separate section, using .ogg would fine. We could make it clear that it's an audio file and link to the audio help article. However, having the audio clip linked to Bush's name, the first link of the article, is far too problematic. The overwhelming majority of readers will have a Windows OS. According to the audio help article, most audio software for Windows requires additional filters, codecs or plug-ins to play .ogg files. We want to make Wikipedia as user-friendly as possible, not complicate it with links that will appear to be broken to people lacking special software. Carbonite | Talk 13:20, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have Winamp installed, which is all I should need to play .ogg files. When I click on the link I get a dialog box with the title "File Download: Security Warning" and I'm prompted to Open, Save or Cancel the download. This is typical behavior for a system with Windows XP Service Pack 2 that doesn't regularly play .ogg files. We do not want readers getting security warnings when they click on links. This is especially true for bold links in the introduction of an article. The problems far outweight the benefits in this particular situation. Carbonite | Talk 13:29, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

.wav, .ogg, .mp3 are various audio format, Wikipedia was not desigend for Windows there are other OS like Linux, Unix and so on. If you do not have an application that does not support ogg, you can download winamp, a spyware free software for example. .MP3/.Zip before Windows Media Player/winZip was not a standard format either. The link however may link to a page with the warning and user is asked to clikc on that one to play. No reason to move where it is. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 18:30, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Pet Goat picture

Not to beat a dead horse (bring up a tired subject), the pet goat picture was discussed not so long ago and it was agreed that it should stay however I had deep reservations about that one...it was discussed as to where the picture originated and some linked it the film Fahrenheit 9/11 and some didn't...if it isn't from that movie, then why the heck is the same picture displayed in the article about the movie?????? I suppose what I am saying is that since that movie is a hopelessly anti Bush propaganda film, and it appears that the picture is from the movie or at least used in a disparaging manner in the film, then perhaps it needs to be eliminated from this article...--MONGO 10:32, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Why is speculation inserted in wikipedia? Only hard facts should be inserted. If a topic or a statement cannot be at this point in history fully vetted, qualified statements need to be inserted next to such statements.

From the movie?? Do you think Michael Moore was there in Florida in person on the date in question? I think it just a bit more likely, Michael Moore got it from another source, from which other "My Pet Goat" pictures derive. Sure, there's a decent chance that this picture is a screen capture from the Fahrenheit 9/11 movie, but that isn't the original source of the footage. --John Owens (talk) 10:53, 2005 Mar 20 (UTC)

Also it would be dangerous to act upon idea like "since that movie is a hopelessly anti Bush propaganda film, and it appears that the picture is from the movie or at least used in a disparaging manner in the film, then perhaps it needs to be eliminated from this article"; it basically forbids any form of legitimate criticism as long as it comes from opponents. Rama 10:57, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You're trolling....sock puppet? Be careful. No kidding about Moore not being in Florida...why on earth is it dangerous to eliminate the picture if it is best known from a completely biased source against Bush? We already discussed that the picture is a vidcap from somewhere and obviously it isn't from the movie.--MONGO 11:01, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

How is he trolling? Mir 03:05, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Following me from several different pages, reverting my edits which have substantially been identical to edits by several other users....page protection to the point of almost violating 3RR...--MONGO 09:15, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

MONGO, I appreciate your contributions to Wikiepdia, but not to the point of investing my time in following each of them. I happen to have some pages on my Watchlist because I have seen while on RC patrol that they tend to be vandalised often.

As for the reverts, you will certainly have noticed that the reverts were not my exclusive deed, and that anyone who derives significantly from the present state tends to be reverted, which would tend to be an indication that the present state satisfies most users. Rama 09:29, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Not exclusively yours, but there were yours in response to 3 or 4 different editors all trying to eliminate POV phrasing and unsubstantiated commentary all in the period of less than 12 hours.--MONGO 09:56, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

the particular parts you refer to have been backed up by abundand documentation, as been be easily seen in the talk page and on the article itself. You can say that they are controversial, since it is unquestionable that they regularly come under scrutiny, but saying that they are "unsubstantiated" is inexact. Rama 10:06, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

MONGO, I would advise you to adopt a more confident attitude toward your fellow editors and assume their good faith. I do not know John Owens, chances are that he doesn't know me neither. I was just pointing to something in your discourse which I think goes further than your though, and has grave implications:

I you decide that any information coming from biased sources is automatically invalid, you are subjecting information to the approval of some sort of authority whose nature is ill-defined. My point is that, as much as Moore vould be biased or anything, if he comes with a proof of some sort, it reminas a proof, even if what he constructs upon it is invalid.

As for this particulr photograph, I think that it is unquastionable that the events of the 9th of Septembre 2001 have been a pivotal point in the Bush's mandate, and it is not uninteresting to see where he was and what he was doing at this very moment. Rama 11:09, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

That's the 11th of September, 2001...not the ninth....there is nothing about the picture which is a pivitol point in the Bush Presidency unless you feel that the misleading dogma of F911 constitutes the end all of the Bush presidency. Man, I sure remember what I as doing at 9 am EST on 9/11/01 when I first heard of the attacks on the WTC....where were you that it was so unimportant that you'd actually get the date wrong?--MONGO 09:15, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, the 11th. Well, it is quite unquestionned that Bush's policy did change significantly from the 11th of Septembre -- not only on an international level motivated by self-defence (invasion of Afganistan), but also on the national level (PATRIOT Act, ...), and international acts not directly related with these events (invasion of Irak). Be it only for the changing in rethorics (the "Axis of Evil", the "War against Terrorism", the "War president"...)

I am not quite sure that I understood your your last argument: you seem to say that the 11th of Septembre had a significant impact, including on your personal life (something I understand easily), but how do you correlate this with the "misleading" nature of thr "dogma of F911 constitutes the end all of the Bush presidency" ?

Cheers ! Rama 09:29, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

We were discussing the Pet Goat picture and I made the claim that I had agreed to allow it to stay and still feel that way, but others had previously argued that the picture was not a vidcap from the movie F911...yet in the article on the movie, the same Pet Goat picture is found...which indicates to me that some were lying or seriously misrepresenting the facts. I can see that, in the manner in which you respond, that the events of 9/11 had less impact on you than on myself or for that matter almost 3 thousand other folks and their family and friends...I am happy of that for you...must be nice. I was being sacastic in my statement that the manner in which Bush is shown in the scene that has him reading the Pet Goat just prior and after he heard about the attacks is the pivitol point, defining moment or end all of his Presidency.--MONGO 09:56, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I see. Sorry, I hadn't understood the humouristic trait, I though you were refering the the whole event. Mea culpa.Rama 10:06, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

For older discussion, see archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 17, 18, 19, 20

Pet Goat picture

Not to beat a dead horse (bring up a tired subject), the pet goat picture was discussed not so long ago and it was agreed that it should stay however I had deep reservations about that one...it was discussed as to where the picture originated and some linked it the film Fahrenheit 9/11 and some didn't...if it isn't from that movie, then why the heck is the same picture displayed in the article about the movie?????? I suppose what I am saying is that since that movie is a hopelessly anti Bush propaganda film, and it appears that the picture is from the movie or at least used in a disparaging manner in the film, then perhaps it needs to be eliminated from this article...--MONGO 10:32, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Why is speculation inserted in wikipedia? Only hard facts should be inserted. If a topic or a statement cannot be at this point in history fully vetted, qualified statements need to be inserted next to such statements.

From the movie?? Do you think Michael Moore was there in Florida in person on the date in question? I think it just a bit more likely, Michael Moore got it from another source, from which other "My Pet Goat" pictures derive. Sure, there's a decent chance that this picture is a screen capture from the Fahrenheit 9/11 movie, but that isn't the original source of the footage. --John Owens (talk) 10:53, 2005 Mar 20 (UTC)

Also it would be dangerous to act upon idea like "since that movie is a hopelessly anti Bush propaganda film, and it appears that the picture is from the movie or at least used in a disparaging manner in the film, then perhaps it needs to be eliminated from this article"; it basically forbids any form of legitimate criticism as long as it comes from opponents. Rama 10:57, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You're trolling....sock puppet? Be careful. No kidding about Moore not being in Florida...why on earth is it dangerous to eliminate the picture if it is best known from a completely biased source against Bush? We already discussed that the picture is a vidcap from somewhere and obviously it isn't from the movie.--MONGO 11:01, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

How is he trolling? Mir 03:05, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Following me from several different pages, reverting my edits which have substantially been identical to edits by several other users....page protection to the point of almost violating 3RR...--MONGO 09:15, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

MONGO, I appreciate your contributions to Wikiepdia, but not to the point of investing my time in following each of them. I happen to have some pages on my Watchlist because I have seen while on RC patrol that they tend to be vandalised often.

As for the reverts, you will certainly have noticed that the reverts were not my exclusive deed, and that anyone who derives significantly from the present state tends to be reverted, which would tend to be an indication that the present state satisfies most users. Rama 09:29, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Not exclusively yours, but there were yours in response to 3 or 4 different editors all trying to eliminate POV phrasing and unsubstantiated commentary all in the period of less than 12 hours.--MONGO 09:56, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

the particular parts you refer to have been backed up by abundand documentation, as been be easily seen in the talk page and on the article itself. You can say that they are controversial, since it is unquestionable that they regularly come under scrutiny, but saying that they are "unsubstantiated" is inexact. Rama 10:06, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

MONGO, I would advise you to adopt a more confident attitude toward your fellow editors and assume their good faith. I do not know John Owens, chances are that he doesn't know me neither. I was just pointing to something in your discourse which I think goes further than your though, and has grave implications:

I you decide that any information coming from biased sources is automatically invalid, you are subjecting information to the approval of some sort of authority whose nature is ill-defined. My point is that, as much as Moore vould be biased or anything, if he comes with a proof of some sort, it reminas a proof, even if what he constructs upon it is invalid.

As for this particulr photograph, I think that it is unquastionable that the events of the 9th of Septembre 2001 have been a pivotal point in the Bush's mandate, and it is not uninteresting to see where he was and what he was doing at this very moment. Rama 11:09, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

That's the 11th of September, 2001...not the ninth....there is nothing about the picture which is a pivitol point in the Bush Presidency unless you feel that the misleading dogma of F911 constitutes the end all of the Bush presidency. Man, I sure remember what I as doing at 9 am EST on 9/11/01 when I first heard of the attacks on the WTC....where were you that it was so unimportant that you'd actually get the date wrong?--MONGO 09:15, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, the 11th. Well, it is quite unquestionned that Bush's policy did change significantly from the 11th of Septembre -- not only on an international level motivated by self-defence (invasion of Afganistan), but also on the national level (PATRIOT Act, ...), and international acts not directly related with these events (invasion of Irak). Be it only for the changing in rethorics (the "Axis of Evil", the "War against Terrorism", the "War president"...)

I am not quite sure that I understood your your last argument: you seem to say that the 11th of Septembre had a significant impact, including on your personal life (something I understand easily), but how do you correlate this with the "misleading" nature of thr "dogma of F911 constitutes the end all of the Bush presidency" ?

Cheers ! Rama 09:29, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

We were discussing the Pet Goat picture and I made the claim that I had agreed to allow it to stay and still feel that way, but others had previously argued that the picture was not a vidcap from the movie F911...yet in the article on the movie, the same Pet Goat picture is found...which indicates to me that some were lying or seriously misrepresenting the facts. I can see that, in the manner in which you respond, that the events of 9/11 had less impact on you than on myself or for that matter almost 3 thousand other folks and their family and friends...I am happy of that for you...must be nice. I was being sacastic in my statement that the manner in which Bush is shown in the scene that has him reading the Pet Goat just prior and after he heard about the attacks is the pivitol point, defining moment or end all of his Presidency.--MONGO 09:56, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I see. Sorry, I hadn't understood the humouristic trait, I though you were refering the the whole event. Mea culpa.Rama 10:06, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Election

Removing POV sentiment and or adding balance is editing. Calling an article [[1]] a pet project isn't meant to be insulting, especially if there has been almost entrily one contributor....the differences betwen "moot" and "without merit" are noted but are slight. Moot: Law. Without legal significance, through having been previously decided or settled[2]. Without merit: Groundless, insignificant, unjustified, etc.--MONGO 21:12, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Obviosly there is a dispute as to what is POV and what is FACT and what is BALANCE.

Calling an article a pet project is an ad hominem circumtantial attack, an attack on the integrity of my character and I resent it.

I would not, by any measure, call that difference, well established by your dictionary references, slight. And here's a puzzle for you, how is it that something can be with merit and moot or without merit and not moot, if the difference between them is slight? I beg you take good not of the differences, "without merit" is a very serious attack on the substance of a case, and, by responsibility, the character of the plantiff(s). Moot is not. That is a substantial difference if ever there was one. Yes, take note of it. Kevin Baas^talk 21:25, 2005 Mar 28 (UTC)

The attack was not on your character...I applaud your efforts to build a case, your development of an article and do consider this a pet project in that you have been the major player in it's development. Moot and without merit...perhaps I stretched that, but it wasn't intentional in the effort to make your argument seem trivial...it took a lot of work to build that article on your part...yet I am allowed to challenge it and constant wiki linking to it if I find it to be used in an effort to create edits and or articles that will fail to be neutral.--MONGO 21:33, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It was and is circular ad hominem circumstantial, and you're well aware of that fact and your motivation, as are we all. Kevin Baas^talk 08:57, 2005 Mar 29 (UTC)

Furthermore, you are not the arbitrator of neutrality and are expected to work towards consensus and follow wikipedia guidelines and policies. I do not find the phrase "that will fail to be neutral." very encouraging as to your recognition of the human mind, yours included, as being limited. I would find a phrase like "that I do not consider to be neutral", something involving "I" and "think"; something epistemological and local rather than ontological and universal would be more encouraging, and would gain you more respect. Kevin Baas^talk 09:17, 2005 Mar 29 (UTC)

It's not just Kevin who worked hard. Scores of editors were involved in either that article, or the source from which it emerged. Such an attribution besmirches their efforts as well. Hardly a pet project, it's a high-visibility site for folks of *all* political outlooks to research the facts surrounding the irregularities pervading the recent presidential election. -- RyanFreisling @ 23:40, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm happy for you, but that doesn't mean I agree with it, nor do I find it to be completely factual. I especially don't like it being some cornerstone of authority that can be linked from other articles...furthermore, the outdating of some of the referencing makes it appear that some of it appears as original research...got to stay on top of things you know.--MONGO 02:17, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

MONGO, you said "that doesn't mean I agree with it, nor do I find it completely factual", you added this part "nor do I find it completely factual", as if you not agreeing with it did not imply that you did not find it completely factual; that is, as if it were possible for you to find it completely factual, and at the same time not agree with it. Kevin Baas^talk 08:51, 2005 Mar 29 (UTC)

What are you smoking, man?--MONGO 09:30, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand the relevancey or meaning of this comment, assuming that it is not a personal attack, which is not allowed on wikipedia. Kevin Baas^talk 17:33, 2005 Mar 29 (UTC)

Personal attacks are your specialty.--MONGO 20:52, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"I'm done communicating with a communist like you. Only a bleeding heart living in total freedom could conjure up such conspiracy theory rhetoric...time for you to get out into the real world and grow up I say." -- Mongo

Please conduct yourself like a grownup and set a good example. Such attacks do not help you get your viewpoint across. There is a mutual obligation here at Wikipedia to Assume_good_faith -- RyanFreisling @ 21:53, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The comment "conduct yourself like a grownup" is also a personal attack, is it not? I will not assume good faith with others that fail to do so with me....some here have a obvious predisposition to push their point of view because of their politics...I am not that way, except in the eyes of those of the extreme left politically.--MONGO 08:23, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

MONGO is right. It's hard not to recognize Kevin Baas' dedication to the election controversy articles, and his frequent attempts to promote them in articles such as this. I spent a good amount of effort trying to clean up one single section of 2004 U.S. presidential election controversy and irregularities. I think it's better now, but it took a ton of effort. I don't have the time or the patience to fight over all the other sections of all the other articles. Maybe it's a lost cause. We should at least make sure that the "controversy" is described neutrally, especially from highly visible articles like this one. Rhobite 02:37, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

All of our admittedly biased opinions aside, the articles have properly weathered all the various attempts to 'improve' them, whether well-intentioned or not. And there is always room for improvement. But any attribution of 'authority' or 'cornerstone' status to those articles is inaccurate. They are no different than any other wiki articles in that respect. -- RyanFreisling @ 02:41, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

They've "weathered" attempts to improve them? I couldn't have said it better myself. A dedicated band of original researchers has kept the election articles safe from the harsh metaphorical "weather" of various attempts to improve them. Bravo. Rhobite

02:54, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

Yea, no kidding...I made a couple of edits which I felt did little to it except to try and add balance to what I saw as extremely one sided and was vewry quickly edited over. Oh well.--MONGO 03:07, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I was talking about the repeated VfD's for dubious causes, outright deletions and POV insertions, etc. - and not the good-faith improvement by many authors represented by the current lack of NPOV/dubious tags. Fixing problems should be done by editing and talking there, rather than griefing here, but you knew that anyway. -- RyanFreisling @ 03:10, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Rhobite, I applaud your efforts. And sympathise with your exhaustion from them. I hope that you may understand, through this, the efforts that others put into it as well, with the same goal in mind as you have. I am quite exhausted, myself. I'm glad you have made improvements to the article, and I think it is better now that you've contributed. And I agree that there is more room for improvement. We are quite exhausted from getting all the information on there in clear and coherent form. It is understandable that the contributors may be a little protective of edits that take information away or distort it, such as replacing "moot" with "without merit", or other forms of revisionist history that favor a particular POV. Regarding "one-sided", it is not surprising that the article discuses election controversies and irregularities in the 2004 presidential election, rather, it would be surprising were it otherwise. It is surprising that there are so many facts to present, but this is no fault of the editors of the article. Rather, it is a virtue that they have made the efforts (as you have, yourself) to present as much of the facts and material as possible, in as lucid, coherent, and non-interpretive manner as possible. If anyone has any specific disputes, they are welcome to bring them up on the article's talk page (at which point the proper dispute tag should be placed on the article), and work cooperatively and in good faith with the other users there, who are likewise expected to work cooperatively and in good faith, until the disputes have been resolved (at which point, the dispute tag should come down), as has been done before. It would be unreasonable for anyone to expect there to be no discussion and/or debate focused on improving the article's accuracy and neutrality, indeed, it would be a disappointment. Kevin Baas^talk 08:34, 2005 Mar 29 (UTC)

Baas, if there is so much fact to your hyperbole then why get your knickers in a bind trying to "protect" the page. What are you scared of? Rhobite was commenting that there was no way, with gargoyles such as yourself hanging over the page, that anyone with an interest in trying to even help you create a balanced article that is indeed neutral will have a chance. Moot and without merit...they both apply to your pet project...otherwise we would all be saying President Kerry instead of President Bush.--MONGO 09:28, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I do not know what you are refering to when you say "hyperbole", nor do I understand how hyperbole can be fact. I do not understand how "my knickers are in a bind". Looing back over my comments, they seem very level to me. You're logic is convoluted: one does not allow POV to be inserted into an article or facts to be distorted, in pursuance of an encyclopedic article and compliance with wikipedia policies and guidelines. The lack of this is cause for concern. That is, if this was not the cause, then there would be concern. If this was the case, there would not be concern. So you see, one would be concerned were this lacking, hence one fills this gap, so that it is not lacking. I do not know what you are refering to when you say I am afraid of something; I have not expressed any fear, nor do I understand what fear would has anything to do with anything we are discussing. You are welcome to look at the article talk page and the article history, if you are interesting in seeing how people have interacted on the article. I am not a gargoyle. If Rhobite is intentionally giving anyone this impression, I can only respond by saying that he is either being disingenuous or hypersensitive, and welcome people to look at the article talk page and the article history and judge for themselves. Kevin Baas^talk 18:55, 2005 Mar 29 (UTC)

Your logic regarding what we would be saying is not logical: The existence or lack thereof irregularities in an election does not directly cause us to say President Kerry or President Bush. For example, if George Bush was recognized by congress as the legitimate winner of the election, "we would be saying" President Bush, regardless of the existence or lack thereof of irregularities in that election. Likewise, if John Kerry was recognized by congress as the legitimate winner of the election, "we would be saying" President Kerry, regardless of the existence or lack thereof of irregularities in that election. The existence or lack therof of irregularities in an election do not determine the outcome of the [regular or irregular] election. If I were to categorize the form of logical fallacy you employed, it would be either appeal to authority or appeal to consequences.

I am aware of your not-so-humbly-stated opinion. I do not understand why you repeat here, if not simply because you get off on insulting things and/or people. Kevin Baas^talk 18:55, 2005 Mar 29 (UTC)

You may wish, in your own manner, to think that you do not insult, but indeed you do. I made an edit and in the first revert your comment was an insult right off the bat. As far as irregularities in the Ohio count...it is a ridiculous and for the last time, if it were true, it would have been all over the press...you wish to make it seem as though we live in 1930's USSR or some other totalitarian police state whereby everything we hear about and read about is sanctioned and approved by the state...the constant baloney that the corporate big wigs control what we consume as far as news is also a bunch of bile. I'm done communicating with a communist like you. Only a bleeding heart living in total freedom could conjure up such conspiracy theory rhetoric...time for you to get out into the real world and grow up I say.--MONGO 20:50, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Once again, I am aware of your opinion. Assuming good faith, I do not understand the point of you continuing to repeat it, after I have already told you that I am aware of it.

Now you are using the fallacy of the excluded middle/reductio ad absurdum, ad hominem abusive (a.k.a "personal attack"), appeal to authority (which has been discussed ad nasuem), and making an unsubstantiated accusation, in violation of Wikipedia:Civility, that I have used ad hominem abusive against you on one instance, and using it as a premise of an argument based on the two wrongs make a right fallacy, and you are not assuming good faith. As Ryan pointed out above, everyone on Wikipedia is expected to follow the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia. Kevin Baas^talk 23:56, 2005 Mar 29 (UTC)

Then practice what you preach.--MONGO 08:25, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

But ofcourse. When I said "everyone", I was including myself. Kevin Baas^talk 19:16, 2005 Mar 30 (UTC)

Business and early political career section

As an occasional observer, I've gotta point out that this section needs major work. Long paragraphs are devoted to borderline-insuation about Bush's business dealings while major career points are given less than a sentence of mention. Like Bush successfully pushing a new stadium for the Rangers and -most shockingly- less than a full sentence on Bush's victory over popular incumbent Ann Richards (defying conventional wisdom). Less than a full sentence on one of the most important and most improbable (according to the wisdom of the time) events in the history of Bush-the-man and Bush-the-politician. This section has *serious* problems of focus that must be corrected if it is to be a serious article.

Is this an encylopedia article or a tabloid? There's too much for a casual observer to even start correcting.