Talk:Vegetative state
The case of the American woman Terri Schiavo is often cited as an example of PVS It seems clunky to call her "the American woman Terri Schiavo", maybe it's just me though. Hondje 05:08, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I agree and have therefore removed it. "The American woman" was unnecessary. Aidje 18:17, 2005 Mar 31 (UTC)
This is also suspect "Eye tracking is often the earliest symptom of recovery."
Agreed, from what I have read on other sites, limited eye tracking is a normal reflex reaction, which often gives the impression that the patient is somehow aware. I propose removing it, but I'd like to find a good medical source stating one way or the other before axing another users contribution.
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This line is should not exist: "in many cases family members who visit the patient will detect evidence of awareness when doctors with limited patient contact will deny it."
This is also suspect "Eye tracking is often the earliest symptom of recovery."
Seems a bit one-sided toward recovery and may warrant a NPOV designator. After all, many PVS patients never recover.
Many PVS patients certainly never recover, and the text doesn't contest this, or even suggest (as I might) that some part of this may be due to termination of nutrition and hydration. However, the percentage of people diagnosed as being in PVS who eventually demonstrate consciousness varies in different studies between 6% and 76%, and in either case the point needs to be made that absolute certainty is impossible. Frankly, I think that anyone proposing NPOV should be obliged to cite some evidence for their belief.
From the page on Coma: One can be in a coma but still exhibit spontaneous respiration; one who is brain-dead by definition cannot do so. Just mentioning it because this page on vegitative states says that patients in a coma are unable to breathe on their own.
- Depends on the definition. If the cortex and much of the brainstem are dead but the medulla oblongata is still being perfused, it is possible to be simultaneously braindead and breathing spontaneously. User_talk:Jfdwolff|T@lk]] 21:08, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
corrections / clarifications
1) Terri Schiavo is not in PVS.
Not even close. Her father described her condition like this:
- Terri laughs, Terri cries, she moves, and she makes child-like attempts at speech with her mother and me.
- Sometimes she will say "Mom" or "Dad" or "yeah" when we ask her a question. When I kiss her hello or goodbye,
- she looks at me and "puckers up" her lips.
2) Some definitions of PVS say that the patient does NOT experience sleep-wake cycles:
So I changed the article to reflect that lack of concensus:
- "They may experience sleep-wake cycles, or be in a state of chronic wakefulness."
3) Many definitions of PVS mention that the patient is unresponsive to external stimuli:
So I added that fact:
- "They are unresponsive to external stimuli, except, possibly, pain stimuli."
NCdave 20:15, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Various court-appointed doctors have ruled that Terri Schiavo is in PVS. Q.v. [1]. This element needs a "dispute" note or, better yet, it should simply state the facts, which are that court-appointd doctors have held her to be in PVS, while her parents seem to dispute this. The above poster clearly has not read the definition of PVS, since he/she claims that the fact that Schiavo laughs, cries, etc., is evidence that she is not in PVS, when in fact these are part of the definition of PVS. Someone from wiki please help this page become NPOV. Tcassedy 03:52, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I don't have time to give much info right now, but as a graduating law student who has recently done a semester of Bioethics, I will agree that the current wiki PVS definition seems to be overly slanted towards exactly what folks like Schiavo's parents would have readers learn.
I would also note that I don't think the page even mentioned that some physicians refer to PVS as "permanent" rather than "persistent."
The definition also needs to note that many or most "recoveries" from PVS are probably just the result of misdiagnosis (patient not in PVS to start with) and usually occur within a shorter rather than longer period of time.
I will reasearch this more, but as one of many medical students who have been watching this case... she is not in PVS. She may have a much lower IQ than someone who was not the subject of questionable abuse, but not PVS. Her responces on the television (when you aren't listening to the reporter) are actually to what is going on around her. When someone called her pretty she laughed like a child. The reports of her saying " I want" with a really bad slur *when she was asked what she wanted*. Her responces are not random. If she were a veggie I think this debate would be different. Why her doctor called her this and isn't changing his mind.. why there wasn't more testing to differentiate this more.. why there was no reablilitation.. really weird case. It will be over soon though. By her urine out put.. she dies in the next few days from the lack of water. She may not improve from what damage has been done, but she is still functioning. It is not just wikipedia, but also the medical textbooks that have been refered to that support that the first doctor was incorrect. <Shrugs> can't examine, but can only say what it looks like from TV. She seems to be a misdiagnosis.
hmm