Talk:Nation of Islam
Welcome to the Talk Page for the Nation of Islam article. Please use the box above, or manually enter new messages at the end of the page, and do not delete messages of others.
I am a Wikipedia administrator and I feel that I personally can take a NPOV on this article. My involvement was simply that I write about the Beltway Sniper Attacks and follow-ups as the trials, etc. have progressed. My main focus is other things related to Virginia. I do not have strong feelings about NOI one way or the other.
This article has been going through edit and revision "wars", which is not unusual for controversial Wikipedia subjects. However, that is not the best way for us all to end up with articles which meet Wikipedia standards. I respectfully suggest that, if you want to add factual content to the article, fine. If you want to dispute what someone else had written, this is a good place to bring your case and cite your sources. If what you are writing is controversial, it won't hurt to say so. We want the article as whole to present a neutral point fo view, so POV positions while be so labeled and there will be every attempt at balance of facts to reach a NPOV in the presentation. Anyone who wants to can leave me messages on my Talk page (User Talk:Vaoverland as well as here. Mark in Richmond Vaoverland 19:56, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)
Racism
Don't reply racism with racism. We are all human beings, I hope the Nation of Islam doesn't still think we're "demons created from the evil scientist Yakub", because we're not. There are good and bad people in every race. I'm Irish and the Irish did not enslave anyone, it was the English who did that. My ancestors were immigrants who had to become indentured servants to pay off their debts and they supported freedom for African-Americans. - Anonymous.
This sentence makes no sense: --Chuck Smith
- It was based on the doctrine that out of all the nations of the earth, Black people, the only nation without any knowledge of their past history, no control of their present lives, and had no guidance for their future.
NPOV complaint
This article seems seriously non npov. Especially with regard to the demons decleration. Even if the NOI does refer to white people as demons, from what I have read about them they would appear to be using a word in a different sense then most would immediately think, and therefor the word should at least be better defined in article.
Is the NOI really a black supremacy group? Do they really (or still?) teach that white people are literally and no foolin' non-human demons rather than real live humans who are inhumanly wicked and demonic? --Uncle Ed 19:19 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)
This "cult" website says so [1], but I don't automatically trust groups who claim to describe what "cults" believe. On occasion, I have found major distortions of the actual teachings in these sites. --Uncle Ed
I much prefer the tone of this webpage, from a univeristy website which has a very accurate and comprehensive article on my church (the Unification Church) as well. --Uncle Ed
It would appear from the page you have linked directly above that the premise of the white man being the devil is still one that can be associated with the movement. I am highly wary of the namb.net site you list above, and I wouldn't base any wikipedia text on a site so blatently non-neutral Tompagenet 17:22 Apr 19, 2003 (UTC)
FWIW, the Southern Poverty Law Center, one of the major US watchdogs that focuses mostly on Neo-Nazi and white supremacist groups, considers the NOI a hate group, and lists it on the same list as the Ku Klux Klan, New Black Panther Party, World Church of the Creator, and other such racist groups. --Delirium 13:16, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)
Edit justification
I removed the sentence below because the referenced article did not actually discuss the beliefs or policies of the organization, Nation of Islam. The article consisted solely of quotes by Louis Farrakhan. While there may be some connection based on Farrakhan's lengthy leadership of the organization and the failure of the organization to publicly repudiate those views, I believe they are better discussed in the Farrakhan article. Rossami 06:39, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
A separate article, Nation of Islam anti-semitism, describes this group's history of anti-Semitic preaching.
Elijah Muhammad - a prophet?
The Nation of Islam has never made any claim that Elijah Muhammad was a prophet. Where did this come from?
- In the autobigraphy of Malcolm X the text concerning the Nation Of Islam says so... Don't know more about it
- The Nation has always referred to Elijah Muhammad as a prophet! deeceevoice 09:50, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Current relationship with Sunni Islam
Haven't they recently officially become Sunnis?—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 20:22, Feb 26, 2005 (UTC)
- Louis Farrakhan has attempted to bring about a reapproachment with mainstream Orthodox Islam, specifically Sunni Islam. However, he has not repudiated any of the traditional beliefs of the Nation of Islam's theology (see the new section within this article.) Therefore most Sunni Muslims see these outreach efforst as a publicity stunt. Those Sunnis who know the details of NOI theology totally reject any cooperation with NOI adherents, unless they reject NOI theology. However, I am sure that there are many Sunni Muslims around the world who know nothing of the NOI's controversial teaching's and beliefs, and thus may be willing to accept them as Muslims based solely on their name (i.e. The Nation of Islam.) Some individuals within the Nation of Islam have denounced NOI theology and have embraced orthodox Islam. I have no idea if any numbers are available on this issue. RK 16:20, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
Revisions for sections controversial items
My point is, for the good of the article and WP readers, let's separate the undisputed facts and history, present them in an organized and NPOV way, and list the controversial matters as just that, and try to provide room for the various points of view, with the understanding that they are, by their very nature, controversial.
Too much has been in the news media about Michael Jackson and John Allen Muhammad to not mention them, and provide some balance in discussions. I will watch the article and help try to follow what I have just said. I hope other contributors, whatever their views, can accept that as a good attempt at fairness. I also run spell checkers fairly often, and I think that I cleaned up some spelling errors without damaging content. I recommend the free ieSpell program as an easy one if you are a contributor. Thanks to all. Mark in Richmond. Vaoverland 22:09, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
So-called "controversies"
I agree wholeheartedly with Vaoverland.
Michael Jackson: This should be removed. It does not rise above the level of trivia and has no bearing on the NOI. It belongs, if anywhere, in an article on Michael Jackson.
Beltway Sniper: This also should be removed. It has absolutely no bearing on the NOI. The killings were not carried out in the name of the NOI. JAM merely had a past affiliation with the NOI as a member. JAM's killings are no more connected to the NOI than, say, Hitler's atrocities are to the Catholic Church. As a matter of fact, they're even less connected. If an entry of this type were inserted into Christianity every time a white Christian committed a heinous crime -- say, the James Byrd lynching, or the the murders committed by Jeffrey Dahmer -- the article would go on forever. Further, I live in Washington, D.C., the area where the killings occurred. Here, where people are more sophisticated/sensible about such things, there was no "controversy" over JAM's previous affiliation with the Nation. It was noted, and that was that.
This kind of tackily, incidental stuff reads like gossip and seems more appropriate (if it is ever appropriate anywhere) in The National Enquirer or some Midwestern, right-wing rag -- not on Wikipedia.
They've been deleted. deeceevoice 10:05, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I am adding back the small section about beltway sniper John Allen Muhammad. The facts are 1. this man was a member of NOI 2. he used some of its teachings through some form of his twisted mind to influence his younger partner, and 3. together they pulled off this murderous rampage and attempted to extort $10 million.
- I feel that it is better to mention all that and LK's handing than to try to ignore it completely. I do agree that the Michael Jackson item doesn't rise to that level to be worthy of mention. (IE so-and-so said that so-and-so said, etc.). However, court testimony, multiple published and attributed sources and LK's statement are all part of the Beltway Sniper tragedy.
- The fact is that any religion can be twisted by individual(s) for personal gain. I am only glad for one (sad) thing: the victims crossed racial age and sex lines so no one can confuse the acts with racial motivation.
Vaoverland 10:33, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)
- White supremacists do the same thing -- twist Christian theology to justify their hatred of blacks and other people of color. In a few years' time, the fact that JAM once belonged to the NOI won't be of much interest to people. They'll see it for what it is -- an ancillary fact. The only reason it appears here is because the events in which he was involved are fairly recent. And there was no "controversy" about JAM's previous association with the Nation -- not even locally, where sensitivity over the killings was highest. Again, consider parallel events committed by other individuals/groups -- and then I invite you to investigate the article on the applicable religion. Do you see it referenced under "Controversies"? No. This should not be here. And, no. After reading your attempted justification for reinserting that information in the article, I certainly wouldn't provide information for you to write up! I prefer to write it myself. Thanks, but no thanks. Peace. deeceevoice 10:54, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
We may not hide beliefs of any group or religion
A major task of any encyclopedia is to explain the beliefs and teachings of religions. We are obligated to do this even if their beliefs make us uncomfortable. This is true for the NOI: One of the basic tenets of NOI teachings is that only blacks are fully human. White people are considered to be genetically and spiritually inferior to black people. They have been preaching this publicly for many years, and it simply is not honest or acceptable to deny this reality. Please do not censor this article by removing information on this point, especially since this point is already sources in three ways within the article, and more sources can readily be added.
An article can explain why its adherents accept these beliefs as true; it can explain how the adherents of this faith justify their beliefs, we can offer varying sources from the groups leaders, but we may not deny that these central teachings exist. RK
Organizational beliefs and tenets vs. alleged and asserted statements
RK, your assertions of NOI beliefs obviously are not based on actual NOI organizational beliefs and tenets but rather external sources--many of which are obviously NOI-hostile--that certainly do not hold to NPOV encyclopedia standards.
Perhaps there should be another section called, "Non-Officially Stated Beliefs" where one can add such text but that seems quite illogical, IMHO.
- Your claims are incorrect. Have you ever been to a Nation of Islam speech in person? I have. Have you ever read the articles in their newspapers? I have. Have you ever read "The Autobiography of Malcom X"? I have. Have you ever read "The End of White World Supremacy" (a book of four long speeches) by Malcom X? Have you ever read any of the speeches of Elijah Muhammed? I have. All these teachings are in there. This is what they have always preached to a black audience, and what they still preach today. None of this is a secret, and it is all very well documented. RK 22:16, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
Hezbollah
I think perhaps the information about Hezbollah would be more appropriate for the Farrakhan entry rather than this page. Is this NOI's official stance towards Hezbollah? What of other groups, both controversial and non-controversial? Unless we are going to begin including information about all these different groups and NOI's opinions on them, rather than singling out one group, I think it would best be removed, yes? Metaspheres 06:57, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
NOI does not teach Elijah Muhammad was a prophet
Metaspheres, you have repeatedly asserted that NOI doctrine teaches that Elijah Muhammad was a prophet. This is not true of NOI doctrine. My source for this is directly from NOI. What is your source? For references see NOI hosted International Islamic Conference:
1)Conference text: http://www.noi.org/conference2000
2)Conference opening session webcast: http://www.noi.org/conference2000
- Sorry, but you sources are totally incomplete. Please see the new sources I have just added to the article. The Nation of Islam has always and public referred to Elijah Muahmmed as a prophet, and to W. D. Fard as God incarnate. The fact that you haven't read these many, many sources doesn't prove that they do not exist. It only shows that you need to stop self-limiting your research to that one webpage. RK 22:32, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
Recent teachings about the mother plane?
For some reason, no one ever wrote anything about the belief of the NOI in the "Mother Plane", although this has always been a part of their theology/mythology. I have tried to rectify this omission today. From what I understand, Farrakhan still believes in the Mother Plane, and briefly spoke about it a few years ago at the Million Man March. Does anyone have any recent references (say, the last 5 to 10 years) about what Farrakhan and other NOI leaders have to say about this specific issue? RK 22:40, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
What about the NOI's work? Some suggested topics for inclusion
I notice there is absolutely no mention in this piece of the NOI's philosophy of "do for self," which resulted in the NOI owning and operating hundreds of businesses nationwide, employing thousands. They cleaned up drug addicts, reformed prostitutes, kept youth out of gangs, people out of prison, helped newly released ex-cons make a new start and stay out of jail, helped those in need, taught strict morality, taught people to carry themselves with dignity and purpose. This gave the NOI enormous street cred in the black community from the earliest days. This is the libration theology aspect of the NOI which is an absolutely key dimension of the organization. It was/is a black nationalist/separatist, self-help organization. It is these positive aspects of the Nation that many (most?) African-Americans associate with the NOI -- not some of the quirkier aspects of its religious dogma.
Further, there's no mention of Wallace Muhammad's major move to divest the NOI of these business holdings.
There's no mention of the Fruit of Islam, the paramilitary, self-defense, security arm of the NOI. There's no mention that housing projects in some U.S. cities during the crack cocaine epidemic of the 1980's employed FOI as security.
Statistics on the enormous strength of the Nation at its height? Number of Mosques? Wealth? Similar statistics now? What about the movement and its membership overseas? deeceevoice 10:19, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
To deeceevoice
How about giving some sources for your comments in the previous section, and write them up to add to the article. You seem well spoken, but if you are uncomfortable in compiling the actual text for the article, I'll give it some attention. I am committed to trying to help keep this article on balance. Vaoverland 10:39, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)
- "Well spoken"? lol A tip: it helps not to use that phrase when communicating w/black folks about black folks. Just trust me. (I realize you meant no offense, so no offense taken.) No, I'm not uncomfortable -- just short on time. Thanks, but I'd rather write it myself. I'll return to the subject when I'm less pressed. Peace 2 u. :) deeceevoice 10:44, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Stop deleting Christian points of view
User: Firebug is making claims I consider offensive against me. He is claiming that I am inserting my own "point of view" by adding Christian points of view. He seems intent on removing all points of view other than those from Jewish groups, to "prove" that only Jewish people have these views. That, however, is false. Firebug is damaging this article by deleting links to related topics. A part of this article became very long, and so in accord with Wikipedia policy was spun off into its own article. Firebug keeps reverting the link to this spin-off article. This article needs close monitoring. RK 17:48, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)
Comments from Vaoverland
I have reviewed the edits and sources. The whole subject is obviously not an easy item for NPOV presentation since it covers an area where there is great disagreement. I would respectfully remind all parties that all Wikipedia editors are strongly urged to cite your sources when stating information as factual.
I believe that User: Firebug is deleting meaningful content which is undoubtedly controversial, but nevertheless, seems to be factual and relevant to the article. If Firebus wants to present different or additional facts, there is ample space to do so also. He may also add facts that present opposing views, so long as we cite sources. However, the deletion of the other editor's work is not justified in my opinion.
Firefox also again deleted the section about the Beltway Sniper attacks, which were unfairly linked excessively to NOI and Louis Farrakhan by the news media. The item presents a NPOV but does not ignore the incident. This was also covered in a talk item earlier today.
It would be best to not have edit wars. A reasonable action is that, if you are going to change someone else's work, at least read the Talk page and leave a comment to justify your action.
It is better to present both sides of the issues and properly label them as opposing., controversial, etc. If we cannot reach a consensus, there are higher powers in Wikipedia to help us. As a Wikipedia administrator, I will lead us there if needed.
If Firefox is offended by the above, please, no offense is intended by me. Tell us your feelings or thoughts here. I would rather us resolve it here, and please, let us not threaten or disrespect each other, folks. Vaoverland 18:58, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)
Beltway Sniper item
The inclusion (or not) of this item is an area where there is some disagreement. At least one other writer seems offended by the wording used by others and me. Do others here feel that it it inappropriate for inclusion or should be worded differently? I would think it is more NPOV to present it than to pretend nothing happened. When the identity of JAM was first reported and his apparently minimal involvement with NOI years earlier was made public, the "right wing" media went severely overboard. Obviously, Mr. Farrakhan felt it was important enough to hold a press conference. Thus, I do not see how you can say it has no bearing on the NOI. Just do a websearch on NOI and watch the stories pop up.
However, rather than engage in an edit war, I would like to see what others think, and whether it is proper to include. If not, then out it goes. Even if it is proper to include the item, if the wording is wrong or offensive, please advise how it should be better worded. Vaoverland 19:53, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)