Talk:2003 invasion of Iraq/Archive 2

Serious consequences

MONGO says:It is stated that "serious consequences" in UN resolution 1441 was not "generally understood by Security Council members to include the use of force." That is a lie.

This is categorically incorrect. The original draft of the resolution had authorized "all necessary means", the traditional Security Council authorization for war. This was taken out because it could not have passed in that form. IN earlier discussion on this Talk, you'll find the results of my research on what the UN delegates for the US and the UK said at the time--that there would be no automaticity and that they understood that no invasion could be carried out on the basis of that resolution without consulting the Security Council again. After 1441 passed, Powell himself put it this way on November 10, 2002: "I can assure you if he doesn't comply this time, we are going to ask the U.N. to give authorization for all necessary means".

The US did not do this, in the event, for two reasons:

The inspectors reported that Iraq was complying with 1441.
The Security Council believed the inspectors and would not have given authorization for war to a timetable that suited the invasion plans.

MONGO, you are being misled by your news media, or whoever else it was who told you that 1441 authorized war. -Tony Sidaway|Talk 14:05, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No I am not...you are. Did all your sourcing come from typically pervasive left wing periodicals such as Salon, et al? The article states serious consequences, not the French later rewording of the words they signed in accordance with 1441....what you are advocating is the delusional backstepping the french did after they signed and then saw that it was really going to happen...The security council did not disagree with the inspectors, but also felt that they would never be able to complete their missions due to Iraqi obstruction of those efforts....this was shared by the U.S., Britian and several other temporary memebers of the Security Council. Use of terminology such as "not generally understood" suggests that the members signed this ultimatum known as UN resolution 1441, but failed to see it as such when the time came to ante up...baloney. That's revisionist.--MONGO 21:02, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Listen, MONGO, it was the US and UK's own ambassadors to the UN, and Colin Powell, that told the UN and the rest of the world, at the time in November 2002, that 1441 did not provide an automatic trigger to war and they would have to come back to the Security Council to get authorization for war--and I've proven this by quoting the very words of those ambassadors, sourcing them to contemporary UN transcripts and wire reports. Your politicians, and mine, then proceeded to lie about this when they saw that the inspectors were giving evidence enough to convince the Security Council that, for now at least, in March, 2003, Iraq was cooperating and thus the conditions for war did not exist. France didn't lie, nor Russia or Germany. They just took the words of the US and the UK, as of November, 2002, seriously. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 13:45, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Listen, Tony...that is not the entire story and I have never said that 1441 was the only catalyst for the "Liberation" nor that the ambassadors or representatives of the U.S. and U.K. ever said that it was on a formal note. However, without being explicit, the term 'serious consequences" was "generally understood" to mean that more consequences were in store for Iraq if they didn't comply...the only thing this could mean was war...though it is not explicitly stated as such.--MONGO 20:17, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Interestingly it was 2 years ago to this day that the inspectors filed a report which was going to move them onto the next step, containment. Not surprisingly the invasion was announced just hours after this. —Christiaan 21:06, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Res1441 did NOT authorize war, its a very simple matter of legal analysis. The political aspects are a completely different matter, but legally speaking, the wording in 1441 does not authorize the use of force (as it explicitly would have to do). Here's a short legal analysis. [1] --Cybbe 23:04, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)

I never said it authorized war...I only said that it stated serious consequences and the only thing more serious than what the international community was doing was to declare war...--MONGO 12:26, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"Declaration of War"? What declaration of war? The last time the USA declared war was World War II. -- Geo Swan 17:55, 2005 Mar 19 (UTC)

Short of a true declaration but military engagement authorized in 2002Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq. My point was that little more serious could be done, aside from GOING to war, than what was already in place.--MONGO 10:17, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Usually, the process involves consultation of the Security Council of the United Nations, of formal decision to engage in violent actions under the aegis of the UN, and then usage of the force. Rama 10:22, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Consultation did occur....lengthy ones at that...FOR MORE THAN A DECADE! That is why there were repeated UN resolutions passed against Saddam...by the UN...--MONGO 10:02, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

but, as was stated by U.S. and U.K. officials themselves (like Colin Powell), and later confirmed by Kofi Annan, none authorised war as for 2003. Rama 10:09, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

MONGO: The arguments you are putting forward are not valid legal arguments. One cant make up a different interpretation of "serious consequences" just because the UNSC doesnt want to go to war. And you argue as if the resolution calls for _more_ serious consequences, it doesnt, it calls for serious consequences which doesnt mean war. And no resolution was passed by the SC saying Iraq was in breach of res 1441, this is for the SC to decide, not the US. --Cybbe 14:49, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

They aren't valid leagl arguments is correct...but they are not vague either...that the French et al balked at the meaning of the terminology when the time came to implement serious consequences is a fact...so what do you postualte as more "serious consequences" than what was already in place beyond the sanctions, and international ostricism of Saddam and his government? It sounds to me that you are playing the same game that the Frenmch did et al and as was the case for the U.S. government and the "coalition of the willing", I don't buy it. As far as who made up the different interpretation, I fail to see how it can be reasoned that it was the U.S. that changed the meaning of the implementation of serious consequences.--MONGO 04:33, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What I do not understand here, then, if indeed "serious consequences" means "invasion", as you seem to imply, is why US and UK officials explicitely stated the opposite. Rama 06:18, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think it's clear that the US expected a rubber stamp. The game plan was that the inspectors would go ahead, Saddam would refuse to cooperate, and the inspectors would say so. Then the UN Security Council would say "okay, no question, we must authorize any means necessary." Only the game didn't go according to plan. Saddam reluctantly cooperated, the inspectors reported that, and few on the Security Council were interested in supporting a headlong rush to war when it looked as if the verification system set up by 1441 was working. In short, the US was caught with its pants down and its todger out, and had no alternative but to brazen it out with a full scale illegal invasion. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 08:18, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

On the contrary, I think it is pretty clear that the US felt it had all the authorization it needed to go into Iraq, based on the reluctant aspects of his "cooperation", the inspectors admitted that there were still "unresolved issues", and lack of cooperation but strangely concluded it wasn't preventing their work. The US was ready to invade and only put up with another try at the security council to satisfy Tony Blair's political needs. There is already a good legal discussion later in the article. If one wants a internationally legit reason to go to war, the breaking of the terms of the truce, such as targeting planes in the no-fly zone was enough. Saddam's "cooperation" came with troops on his border, if he had wanted to demonstrate good faith he should have cooperated earlier, perhaps he overestimated the power of his friends on the security council. He surely could not believe a true deliberative body would decide in his favor.--Silverback 10:16, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It is quite clear that there are sufficient arguments both for and against the term 'serious consequences' implying imminent use of force, to merit the toning down of the initial paragraph's assertion that 'use of force was not Security Council authorized'. The British and US Governments firmly believe that the authorization for use of force was implicit in resolution 1441, ang hinged on the failure of Saddam Hussein to comply with previous resolutions, and the fact that the First Gulf War was put on hold not rescinded in Resolution 687, which enabled that resolution to be recalled and retain its merit in 2003. Although the legal basis for this is debatable, the fact that it is clearly upheld by these two main proponents of the Iraq war, means that there should be less emphasis on the assertion that the war was illegal, as to do so implies inherent bias. (Anon 17:13 GMT, 01 April 2005)

Meddling

This is one of my favourite kind of news stories at the moment:

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=7938792

It's propaganda with a thinly veiled purpose but it gets a giggle out of me everytime some U.S. invader complains about Arab's meddling in Arab affairs. —Christiaan 09:21, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Problem is that Iranians are not Arabs either...they are Persians...even a large number of ethnic Syrians are of Turkish extract...besides, the story isn't anything new..the U.S. and the other forces there to liberate Iraq from the oppressors known as the Baath Party have long held the belief (based on facts) that persons hostile to democracy have been attempting to enter Iraq from a neighboring country...instead, we should have just stayed out of there, I mean, who cares if they live under Saddam, right?--MONGO 05:48, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Saddam's regime were notorious meddlers in Iraqi affairs. The overall meddling index in the lives of the individual Iraqi's is probably way down due to coalition assistance.--Silverback 06:17, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, I agree 100%.--MONGO 12:28, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I should have said Muslim, which pushes the point home even clearer. Here you have a prodominantly white Christian and Jewish executive which has just invaded a prodominantly brown Muslim country and is now complaining that their Muslim brothers in neighbouring countries are "meddling". I'm not surprised the hilarity in this seems to evade you. —Christiaan 15:54, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"brown"? Iraqi's are caucasian. "Muslim brothers"? al Zarqari's (presumably wahabi) organization is trying to start a sectarian war with the shia. "attempt to privatize Iraqi oil fields"? It would have been much easier for the coalition to have just secured the unpopulated oil fields and left the people to their own devices if oil was the goal. And there certainly would have been no moral prohibition against taking it, after all, Saddam had gotten it by force too. --Silverback 07:03, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

caucasian? try telling that to U.S. military pawns who refer to them as sandniggers. —Christiaan 15:24, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

> http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=7938792

Haha, thats hilarious. The US, busy slaughtering Iraqi civilians and anyone they can shoot, by the tens of thousands, angry after they failed in their attempt to privatize Iraqi oil fields and get them into Western hands out of Iraqi hands, complains that Iran is "meddling in Iraqi affairs". Priceless.

Improving this article

Some general notes on how to improve this article:

There is far too much waffle about justifications, which I think comes from left-right argy-bargy. The article should focus on the invasion and occupation itself, and document the concrete history rather than the motivations.
The description of the invasion and destruction of iraqi forces could be much longer. There's no real description of the disposition of Iraqi forces for instance. There's little analysis of the "shock and awe" and why it was so particularly effective or ineffective.
Other things that need a mention - Allied logistics, problems with working as a combined force (i.e. Matty Hunt's death) POW processing, damage to Iraqi infrastructure
The "Rationale" section at the top and "Opinion and legality" down the bottom need to be combined. They're fundamentally talking about the same issue. They can then be split out into a "Rationale and Legality of 2003 Invasion" article, and replaced with a 4-5 paragraph summary, covering briefly 1441, WMD, etc.

I'm keen to hear your opinions. 203.173.32.84 11:06, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

And another thing - the introduction should give an estimate of the Iraqi forces! Knowing how many Iraqis is more important than knowing how many Poles! 203.173.32.84 11:23, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

All excellent points...but this isn't an encyclopedic article...it is a left wing propaganda piece.--MONGO 13:16, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I remember seeing an article on Wikipedia about the rationals for the invasion, but I haven't been able to find it recently (might be that it was merged into this one, that I have a wrong recollection, or that it still lies somewhere where I haven't looked).

I am not completely sure that "Rationals" and "Opinion and legality" are exactly the same thing: "rational" is the official positions of the invading governments; "opinions" is more about popular and non-official positions; and "legality" is mainly the discussion revolving around UN resolutions. I'd tend to think that the three should be separated, is fact, or perhaps would be better grouped with "Rationals and Opinion" and "Legality". But that's just a vague idea...

As for the military technical aspects of the invasion, if someone is competant to extend and give more precisions, it goes without saying that he is very welcome !

Before I finish, I would like to brotherly make a small comment on the "left wing propaganda" aspect (especially for MONGO): everyone is of course entitled to his opinions, but it would be nice not to make hasty asumptions as to other's ideas. In this particular case, questionning the validity of the whole article as "left wing propaganda" has the doubly negative effect of being not nice to the numerous users who are striving to keep this article precise and impartial, but also to make your own position more difficult to defend against hypothetical truely extremist users, who could dismiss your own statements as "far-right propaganda" and point to this comment to question your motivations here. In the interest of Wikipedia as a whole, which undoubtly benefits from your input, I would make a friendly suggestion that you should avoid weakening your position like this.

Thank you for the interesting ideas and cheers ! Rama 13:46, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

THank you, I believe that as insulting as my comment my be, it is justified in it's factuality....sorry, I won't sugar coat it.--MONGO 20:00, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Mongo, what I was trying to say was that it was a political shouting match. It contains far too much political comment full stop. It really needs to lose the lefty rambling true, and then it also needs to lose the attempts at justification.

On "Rationale" being the same as "Opinion" etc: what is clear is that various countries supported the war, for a small number of reasons, and there was a body of public opinion both in agreeemnt and disagreeing with this. The part of the stated rationale was the violation of 1441. Indeed the background could be summarized as:

1991 invasion, and subsequent expulsion of inspectors - 1 paragraph.
Outline of Iraq disarnament crisis and passage of 1441 in 2002 - 1 paragraph
Rhetoric of Iraqi brutality/Al-Quaeda relationship - 1 paragraph
Agreements establishing "Coaltion of Willing", mobilization/deployment and Iraqi response - 1 paragraph (Note the current article has almost nothing on this) - also the Kwaiti, Saudi, and Turkish response
Establishment of deadlines prior to October 2003 - 1 paragraph

Then onto the description of the invasion's opening attack. Then the note on media coverage, the proper "end date" for the invasion, and casualty estimates. At most 1 paragraph on popular views. Then we'll have an article talking about the war. 203.173.32.84 14:34, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

And I agreed...I suggest you commence imputing this info, and deleting the unencyclopedic jargon and see how far you get against those that wish to continue to see this hypocrisy stand as the benchmark. I know this sounds sad and highly critical on my part, failing to assume good faith, but I feel that this article is beyond hope. I have watched it for so long and only got on the band wagon editorializing when I saw there were 3 or more people with serious reservations about the same issues I had. However, a select group of gargoyles have formed a coalition to ensure that this page is reverted back almost in any case they feel makes even the slightest alteration to a more factual accord...and attempts to move this article to a NPOV one. Besides the mere alteration of and or incorporation of anythig that would make the article NPOV, you'll find that many wish to continue to utilize phrasing, tone and qualification for "balance"...jst a ruse to ensure their jargon is here for good...your attempts are ones to be encyclopedic, theirs are ones to utilize this article as a political sounding board.--MONGO 20:00, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Resolution 687

Silverback, you removed

"in violation of UN Security Council Resolution 687(notably point 22)[2];"

with the comment

"rv, this text does not make the case claimed for it, obviously congress was judging Saddam's behavior, if he complied with the UN that in itself would be regime change, the lack of a treaty is decisiv"

Would you mind extrapolate a little bit, I am not quite sure that I follow you... Sorry if I am slow to grasp the meaning :p Rama 17:57, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The continual charge that the Iraq Liberation act is either a violation of 687 or in international law in general is open to wide speculation. Christian lost this fight over in the Iraq Liberation act article and now wants to try it again here. Furthermore, I cannot find a credible source that states that the ILA is a violation of 686 or international law. Law, and UN resolutions in general are subject to a wide variation of interpretation, that’s why we have lawyers and judges and juries. If a source can be found then perhaps the reverted material can be added to the article, otherwise it be gone and it stay gone. TDC 23:04, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for yout input. The argument here, as I understand it, is that the statement by the USA that only the removal of Saddam Hussein will permit the lifting of the sanctions does not match the UN resolution 687; indeed, in the resolution, a set of conditions is defined for the lifting of the sanctions, which nowhere demands a change of government. I suppose that the argument developed here means that no other resolution of the UN demanded the departure of Saddam Hussein, and that as such, the ultimatum made by the USA was not in a continuation of the UN process. On this particular point, the UN resolution leave very little room for interpretation, it does not make mention of a change of power. Rama 23:18, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Excuse me all, but could we please discuss the reasons which led Silverback to remove the piece in the the first place, as well as the oportunity of putting the piece here, rather than keeping reverting back and fro without any proper reason ? I say this in the interest of the nerves of all the parties, as well as for the poor server which is striving to catch on... Rama 22:47, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The references did not seem logically connected to any argument that this law violated international law. The provisions cited relied upon the security council to lift sanctions. Since the US has a veto on the council, if the US says the sanctions will only be lifted under certain conditions such as regime change, it obviously has the means within the article you cite to make sure those conditions are met, or at least the sanctions stay on the books. The US has a veto on the findings of fact. The behavior of other members on the security council demonstrate they feel no obligation to be intellectually honest in the evaluation of the facts. The US of course would have had to have done much more to prevent the cheating on the sanctions by several of the parties that voted for them. How could the law passed by congress, be in anyway a violation of those provisions of the sanctions, it seems quite within them. Now if the law unilaterally lifted the sanctions, or authorized the US government to cheat on them, then it would be a violation under those provisions, just as the cheating by other security council members was.--Silverback 10:24, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Seems like an arguable interpretation. I'm not comfortable with the statement as a fact that the Act was in violation of of Resolution 687, and I'd like to see some reasonable reference to a legal argument being made for this if I'd even want it included as a notable opinion. It looks to me like it's probably a bit of original research as suggested. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 11:45, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

perhaps a bit of sur-interpretation at least. The current formulation in the article in now "in contrast with...", which is less problematic on this respect, if I understand the issue correctly. Rama 12:04, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Who are these others?

Is there a reference for this sentence that could be added? Others have remarked that in comparison to other engagements involving the numbers of troops, the scope of the engagements and the duration of the action, that the percentage of deaths and causalties is less than an eighth of those from previous military actions.

Not only who the others are, but a pointer to the statistics would be useful. -Wikibob | Talk 12:37, 2005 Mar 22 (UTC)

Whoever inserted this should be able to provide a source. Feel free to remove until the source shows up. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 12:55, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Then the following POV item must also go...There is currently growing concern being voiced from some in the U.S. comparing the situation to previous wars such as the Vietnam War. Here is a link to current combat casualties and a quick click on prior U.S. causualties allows anyone with simple math skills to do a quick computation....and not to forget additional issues such as the length of time the conflict has lasted or the number of troops involved...[3]...furthermore, naturally most wars involve fighting between mostly young men, but this is an all volunteer military so not to be confused with very yong men of the Vietnam era that were, in great liklihood, there due to a military draft...the terminology of very young men is therefore, pushing an antiwar rhetoric pervasive in this article, keeping it from becoming neutral...it is not our job to judge the war...only report it without bias as much as possible.--MONGO 19:11, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There is currently growing concern being voiced from some in the U.S. comparing the situation to previous wars such as the Vietnam War is not untrue, as can be seen in a quick google search. I suggest that this statement be supported by significant external links (for instance [4] and [5], but other are welcome). There is also the sentence "Iraq is like Viet Nam on crack cocaine", by Marilyn Young, Professor of History NYU, which seems to prohemently illustrate this current of thoughs.

The mention of "young men" sounds a little bit odd, and I fail to understand what it brings apart from gratutious connotation; if I missed the point, I am of course open to hear the underlying idea, but else, it might better be removed.

The voluntary nature of the engagement of US soldiers in Iraq is debatable: a significant proportion are young people of the working class who joined the Army for the advantages that they would recieve afterward for their studies. Also, the US Army has extended the time of engagement, and it is not trivial to know what the soldiers involved in this feel about it. Finally, a number of stories about US soldiers deserting have been publiblished (including the one requesting political Asilium from Canada). A point to nuance, then. Rama 19:42, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Marilyn Young calls herself a "commie hippie pinko protester" and we are to consider this to be significant and an unbiased treatise on the subject...sure...now that's not a biased source.--MONGO 20:21, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I cleaned it up differently, please let me know what you think. In my opinion if we say the military is all volunteer we also should add the fact that recruitment is way down the last few months for balance. Certainly reservists didn't expect to be spending over 6 months in Iraq. Many soliders have also fought their tour of duty extension (which some call a back door draft) and some have even gone AWOL and fled to Canada rather than return to Iraq after leave. zen master T 20:07, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The external links are obvious anti war links. Anyone who teaches at a place like NYU (a bastion of ultra liberal idiocy) are going to come up with preposterous jargon like "Iraq is like Viet Nam on crack cocaine", the mention of young men is POV pushing because this is an all volunteer military unlike 30 years ago...reports of morale that show it being low are nothing compared to morale during the Vietnam era especially 1968-1971....the number of desertions is not in any way comparable to previous engagements, especially the American Civil war and even that glory of glories? WW2. I recommend you look outside your liberal circles for better facts. The grumblings are normal for any enlisted man...it is typical and expected and not enlightening, but incorporation of this merely continues to give this article a biased POV feel. It would also be advised that calling something untrue is no more useful than saying Bigfoot is untrue...as we don't really know that it doesn't exist even though the evidence is weak...comparing antiwar events today to those in 1969 for example indicate to me that you two don't remember those protests from that era...the difference is extreme and holding on to some belief that there is any equal parallel tells me you've been misled. If you come here with a predisposition to report based on your politics, then there can be little hope that this article can ever become NPOV.--MONGO 20:15, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

By what basis are you proposing the removal of links merely because they are "anti-war"? The article no longer says "young men" I changed it to something along the lines of "high percentage are young men between the ages of 18 and 22". "Better facts"? interesting phrase. It could be argued that Iraq is worse than Vietnam, Iraq can be alleged to be a war over oil as a resource whereas Vietnam was principly a battle over ideology. 100,000 estimate dead Iraqi civilians is within an order of magnitude of the estimated 500,000 dead Vietnamese. Reporters and critics and world leaders have drawn parallels to Vietnam, how is that not valid inclusion material? If there is a dispute over a possible parallel to Vietnam we should mention that the parallel to Vietnam is disputed, rather than remove any mention of Vietnam. Can you provide citations for the claim that Iraq is not like Vietnam? zen master T 20:25, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What is the difference between young men and the phrasing of high percentage of men between 18 and 22...is that supposed to be different...I don't see that. I say that reporters and others that do attempt to compare the current situation with Vietnam are foolish and wrong...that is how I feel based on the simple fact that there is no comparison....asking me to provide claims that it is not like Vietnam is silly...anyone with simple math skills can add the figures, the length of the combat, the number of dead and injured, the fact that there was a draft meaning that a vast majority of people who fought in Vietnam were not volunteers (regardless of the argument of arm twisting you claim modern recruitment employs). Estimates for number of civilian deaths in Vietnam number as high as 7 million..compared to what a maximum of 40 thousand for the current war in Iraq. The U.S. has lost just over 1500 soldiers in Iraq compared to 58 thousand in Vietnam. Over 6 million troops saw combat in SE Asia between 1958 and 1975 compared to less than 1 million in the entire theater of operations of Iraq and the Persian Gulf 1990-date....how can there be a comparison? There can't unless you fudge the numbers to fit your agenda.--MONGO 18:14, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

MONGO, your appreciation of New York University surprises me: according to [6], it is among the best universities in the world... In any case, the political opinions of the professor in question do not invalidate the fact that the point was made (valid or not).

The comparison of the desertion rates in certainly interesting and valid; nevertheless, I think that inserting "voluntary" in the article without further development would not be very productive (you are welcome to suggest a development, naturally).

I size the opportunity to kindly remind you that assuming good faith and refraining from making asumptions about your interlocutors would in no doubt contribute to the pleasant and constructive atmosphere of this page. Thank you very much ! Rama 21:25, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Why, because it would be a fact? The U.S. is a volunteer force....your insinuation that the current recruitment is geared toward involuntary force in any way similar to a draft indicates to me that you have no idea what it was like for those that suffered under a draft to go fight wars like Vietnam...additionally, the military has always been heavily populated by those of a lower income level due to the fact that it is a better alternative for some of them due to fewer other viable income opportunities which is, in their defense of course, beyond their control. Naturally one would expect there to be those that go awol, those that are completely dissatisfied and those that had their soon to end enlistments extended...but I see no mass exodus of American youth to Canada to escape the draft, or tremendous protests that completely shut down universities and government office buildings....your politics are making you want to make something out of nothing to support your ideology and it is unfair to this article and others of similar politically charged current issues.--MONGO 18:25, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry, obviously the point was not clear. I will try again: the matter here is not whether the comparison between the war in Iraq and the war in Viet-Nam is accurate or not; it is about whether the comparison is often made. We have here examples of very numerous sites, article and proheminent intellectuals who make this comparison (I even remember a U.S. general mistakingly saying "Viet-Nam" instead of "Iraq" before the invasion occured, which is a very obvious indication that Viet-Nam was on everybody's mind). I am very open to the idea that the comparison is not accurate, but nevertheless, the fact that the comparison is regularly mentionned has its place in the article as much as, say, the accusation that Iraq possessed Mass Destruction Weapons. (and once again, my personal feelings and opinions are outside the scope of this discussion and have nothing to do with the fact that other people say such or such thing). Rama 19:25, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I just thought of a succinct way of putting it, "volunteer army" does not mean a soldier necesarrily volunteered to support a specific war, it just means they volunteered to join the military, in many cases for money for college or other financial incentives. zen master T 22:26, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Baloney, do you really think that when they enlist the recruiters tell them that they can fight the war if the want to or a war of their choosing? That's like saying you signed up for a job as a truck driver but don't want to have to drive anywhere...everyoe knows they can be sent to anywhere in the world if the governemnt decides (or President) to do so ...so for those that enlist and then decide that they don't want to fight they can be dishonorable discharged and forfeit any compensations such as college tuition assistance...there is plenty of paperwork they complete to said effect when they enlist.--MONGO 18:32, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

whilst it may be correct military jargon its kinda misleading and therefore imo not NPOV Plugwash 22:47, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I wonder whether the men whose contract was unilaterally prolongated by the US Army are volunteer by any definition of the word... Rama 23:48, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Just to clarify my point, I think that given the information we have, stating "volunteer army" would be largely correct, yet inexact. Since the armies of most Western democracies are volunteer armies (at least of the troops which are sent to places where a war is taking place), I would advise simply outright droping the mention to avoid the hassle of the footnotes. Rama 23:54, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

WhetherSaddam Hussein was a target or not

User:Ruy Lopez, I have taken the liberty to restore the parts which you have removed about the ultimatum to Saddam Hussein and Saddam Hussein being a target. I understand that contradictory signals were sent by the U.S. governement, but the ultimatum however did take place, and Saddam Hussein was (later) stated as one of the primary reasons for the invasion (think of the (astromically poor-tasted) card playing game which was issued to U.S. soldiers).

Just like it is discussed in the section above, it is not necessarly the exactitude of an argument which makes its quotation revelant, but the fact that it was stated.

On the other hand, if you have a reference to George Bush saying that the invasion would take place whether Saddam Hussein would leave or not, you are of course welcome to insert this into the article. I hope you understand my motivation. Cheers ! Rama 06:43, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

That's not editing, that's pushing a POV. It may not be important what they said, so long as they said it...in other words, no reason to bother editing here since we are not here to make a fair and accurate portrayal of the subject matter, only to report whatever people say, regardless of whether what they say has a basis in fact. When you state that "hope you understand my motivation"...it is obvious that your motivation is to make a ruin of this article with your propaganda. Continued argumentation that the exactitude of an argument is not necessary indicates further that you have a hopeless bias to creating an anarchistic article. How can you continue to display such a total lack of understanding of what constitutes encyclopedic and what constitutes good research and sound editing?--MONGO 09:48, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Excuse me, I am afraid I do not quite understand your point. Do you mean that we should remove all allusions to Iraqi weapons of mass destructions because it turns out that the accusations made the the U.S. and U.K. goverments were baseless ? Rama 10:03, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No, it already says that in essence...thanks in no small part to the redundant lefty overtones of this entire article.--MONGO 08:28, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If you see redundent sentences or tendencious formulations, you are of course welcome to edit them, or in doubt, report then on this talk page for further discussion. I would appreciate if you could elaborate, is this would be helpful to work this out. Rama 10:03, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

in other words, no reason to bother editing here since we are not here to make a fair and accurate portrayal of the subject matter, only to report whatever people say, regardless of whether what they say has a basis in fact.

That's partially right, MONGO. We are to report what the Bush administration (and Saddam Hussein's) said, attributing those statements to them, whether or not what they said made sense or was truthful. We should of course also state where the claims of either seem far-fetched or have been proven wrong by events. If the Bush administration advanced nonsensical and false reasons for invading Iraq, we should nevertheless report that it gave those reasons. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 11:59, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Wrong. That is an excuse to utilize a loophole in Wikipedia to report baseless information just to bolster a POV. The true purpose of this enterprise is to educate and to do so with a sense of neutrality and a desire to be as factual as possible.--MONGO 08:31, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I will try to make myself as explicit as possible:

* Some statements have been made, are falsifiable and have been proven true.

* Some statements have been made, which are not falsifiable.

* Some statements have been made, are flasifiable and have been proven wrong.

Whether or not these statements have been proven right, wrong or not at all does not change anything to the fact that the statements were made. On the other hand, the mere fact that a statement be made, whether right or wrong, explains behaviours or indicates tendencies.

For instance, the statements around the alleged weapons of mass destruction have been proved to be a notorious red herring. They were plain wrong. Now, according to what I understand of your statements, we should remove all references about this (among other subjects) on the ground that the statements were baseless. You will of course understand that if we did this, the article would basically report the invasion with virtually now cause or explanation as to why it was initiated; in other words, the invasion would seem completely arbitrary. Naturally, we do not intend to suggest such a thing.

I have had the impression in the past that you held me for more left-wing than you are (an opinion which is purely yours, by the way); but if you consider the actual example of the "Saddam Hussein as a target" which is discussed in this section, you will note that my intervention tends to maintain another minor reason which has been presented by the U.S. government as a reason for the invasion. On this respect, I take, in this particular point, the position of an advocate of the U.S. government, a position which is not consistent with one which could be taken "to report baseless information just to bolster a POV". I therefore would appreciate if you could make an effort in the future to refrain from doubting my good faith, will for accuration and dedication to this project, "this enterprise (...) to educate and to do so with a sense of neutrality and a desire to be as factual as possible", as you say very well, unless you have very precise and specific criticism to address. It is not that these insinuations harm me in any we, but I fear that they weaken your position to the point where it would become difficult for you to have your remarks taken seriously ba other contributors.

I hope that you understand the general idea, and I look forward to having constructive discussions with you. Rama 10:03, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If accuracy was your goal, then why leave in the unsubstantiated remarks submitted by Ruy Lopez? Surely you noticed them....--MONGO 11:23, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Did I not ask for references ? Rama 11:42, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I see that you did revert him once and can wag off the remainder as not trying to get into an edit war. I took care of the misleading unreferenced information anyway...for now.--MONGO 11:44, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Indeed one could think that this page has been the subject of more than its share of revert wars, still recently. Also, I would like to point to the fact that Ruy Lopez has rewordedd his point, in response to the concerns which I raised on this talk page. I would also have prefered to see a link, but I would like to underline that Ruy Lopez does not seem to be heading to a deadlock here. If someone could provide a link to back the statement attribuated to George Bush, the part woulf have to be taken into consideration. Rama 12:35, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In the Azores, Bush said Iraq would be invaded whether Hussein left or not. He did suggest Hussein could leave, meaning I suppose that if he had fled to Syria or somewhere the US would not pursue him. This must not be confused with the idea that the US would not invade Iraq if he left because Bush said he would invade Iraq whether or not he left. He said this in the Azores, days before the invasion. Ruy Lopez 19:52, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In the Azores, Bush said Iraq would be invaded whether Hussein left or not.

According to Noam Chomsky perhaps [7]

But, like usual, not according to fact at hand.

Bush also raised again the possibility that Hussein could leave Iraq, although administration officials view that as highly unlikely. "Saddam Hussein can leave the country, if he's interested in peace," Bush said. "You see the decision is his to make."[www.palcus.org/comm/azoresummit.html ]

March 17, 2003: Bush tells Saddam to leave Iraq or face attack In a speech broadcast around the world, the president says the United States will attack Iraq unless Saddam Hussein flees his country within 48 hours. [8]

TDC 22:43, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

I have given a quick look at the full transcritpion of the discours [9], and it did not leave me with the impression that George Bush, nor any of his allies, are affirming their intention to invade Iraq whatever the issue of their ultimatum. Perhaps the point made by User:Ruy Lopez was an exagerated interpretation of what is said here, or originates in something absent from this document; but for the time being, I still have to see references for this statement attributed to Georges Bush. Rama 13:12, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

(oh yes please, I'd like to see references for this statement attributed to George's Bush too!!)—Christiaan 13:20, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I am now convinced by the reference [10] kindly provided by Christiaan:

Q Will U.S. troops enter Iraq, no matter what, at this point? In other words, even if Saddam Hussein, in some off chance, takes this ultimatum, leaves the country with his sons, will U.S. troops, nevertheless, enter Iraq?

MR. FLEISCHER: The President addressed that last night. And the President made clear that Saddam Hussein had 48 hours to leave, beginning at 8:00 p.m. Eastern time last night. The President also made plain to the American people that if Saddam were to leave, the American forces, coalition forces would still enter Iraq, hopefully this time peacefully, because Iraqi military would not be under orders to attack or fire back. And that way Iraq could be disarmed from possession of weapons of mass destruction.

(though it seems that neither Bush not the Azorres were parts of this particular affair) Rama 13:17, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Silverback is now trying to remove the text that explains the statement of intent by Ari Fleischer that the U.S. would invade Iraq no matter what. Invasion is a military action consisting of troops entering a foreign land (a nation or territory, or part of that), often resulting in the invading power occupying the area, whether briefly or for a long period. We are not here to propagate the U.S. government's propaganda that "entering" Iraq "peacefully" would not be an invasion. The intent was clear, they would invade Iraq "no matter what". —Christiaan 21:44, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I can't see how the version suggested by Silverback is less accusatory than yours. The statement by Ari Fleischer is obviously stretching reality quite far, and I am confident that any reader coming through the passage will recognize this sort of proposal for an "Anschluss the Return" for what it is. My opinion is that the mess around this passge can now safely stop. Rama 22:24, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it's a matter of being accusatory. It's simply that Silverback has tried to remove the word "invade", which I think dilutes the passage and panders to U.S. government propaganda. —Christiaan 22:29, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It one is going to justify the passage with the citations, it is the language of the citations not a POV interpretation of them which should be used. Rama's right, the actual language should suffice, if you have to spin it, you are admitting you other interpretations are perhaps more likely. That said, I think despite the ultimatum to Saddam, the administration realized that little would change with the Bathist/Sunni's still in power. It is a shame Saddam didn't yield his ill gotten country peaceably.--Silverback 22:44, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I didn't add spin, I removed it. —Christiaan 22:48, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

We don't need another edit war on this. The language of the White House is far sufficiently eloquent, and the argument that we must not repeat propaganda is not valid; we have an article about LTI - Lingua Tertii Imperii, do we not ? Propaganda should be exposed, providing it is marked as such (here, with quotation marks). Refusing to expose propaganda is not only a removal of information, it is collaborating with the propagandists. Rama 11:18, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I didn't say we mustn't "repeat" propaganda. I said we mustn't pander to it. I'm talking specifically about the removal of the word invade, of which Silverback has often pushed for in this article. —Christiaan 11:42, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

removing addition of U.S. propaganda

Christiaan, US "propoganda" are the sources being cite for these statements that are allegedly conflicting. Fleischer makes it clear that if Saddam complies the entry to Iraq may be peaceful and this does not conflict with Bush's statement.--Silverback 13:22, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hehe, Silverback, we've already discussed this exhasutively. We're not calling the invasion of Iraq, the "entering of Iraq". —Christiaan 13:24, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have talken the liberty to change it back to the version suggested by Silverback, but with quotation marks. This has, I think, the advantages of

Being probably a middle term solution (does anyone see a problem with it ? I'm open...)
Giving a taste of what is in the document without making the formulation our own; also, it cuts down a little bit on the repetitions of the word "invasion", and illustrates the way that the notion of "invasion" is avoided by the White House
Easing the use of one of my favourite functions: "Search in text" !

Cheers (and thanks to Christiaan for the nice documentation work here). Rama 13:33, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Since we're writing about the invasion don't you think we should refer to it as that. Let's not panda to U.S. propaganda. "Coalition", "allies", "enter Iraq" are all carefully chosen terms of propaganda; a good reason for us to avoid them. —Christiaan 13:37, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, as can be seen here and there on several talk pages, I am certainly a strong advocate of caution when it comes to using specific terms coined by interested organisations (especially governments). But if they are properly quoted and marked as such, they can be a rather elegant way of solving the problem: no more paraphrases, no hassle as to what is what, etc: just say "the guy said that, used this term for say this, it's not what WE say and we let you judge". (Besides, the little jig that the poor spokeman is playing to avoid the use of the word "invasion" deserves to be seen; look at how he even forgets to stick to the "coallition forces", before he comes back to his senses...) Rama 13:43, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Alright, I can live with this. See my edit. —Christiaan 14:06, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, I appreciate your attitude. Rama 14:18, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Dude, it's "pander". A panda is something else. Chamaeleon 23:30, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Heh, so it is. :) —Christiaan 23:44, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Name of war

In the United States and Unitd Kingdom, it seems to me that "Iraq War" is the predominant name for this war. Is anyone aware of how this war referred to outside of these countries? In Iraq especially.119 00:04, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Iraqi Kurds, and Shia's refer to it as the great liberation.--MONGO 08:13, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Shouldn't that be The Great Liberation? LOL. —Christiaan 09:37, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

And your grammar is perfect...such as the use of "your" when you meant "you're" in this comment.....[[11]]. Yes, it is a liberation for the majority of the population in Iraq...--MONGO 16:55, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ohh, ya got me Mongo, hope you feel better now? —Christiaan 20:12, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You messed up, again...it's MONGO, not Mongo...--MONGO 20:20, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sorry Mongo, I'll try not to do it again. —Christiaan 20:31, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Removal of text concerning internal US politics.

Tony (Sidaway), your edit of me in 2003 Invasion of Iraq is just you once again, pushing your left wing sentiment! I did nothing but create facts and you edited over it...it has the most left wing POV phrasing of any article in Wikipedia and all I did was attempt to make it more neutral...the U.S. house or representatives and the Senate did OVERWHELMINGLY vote in favor of granting the President the use of force in Iraq....the current phrasing of the article does make it look as though the Iraq Liberation Act is a Bush affair when it isn't...it was passed during the Clinton administration.....get your facts straight...--MONGO 09:19, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The sentence "The United States congress also passed the "Iraq Liberation Act" in October 1998", in the "Prelude" section of the article, makes the above point a little bit obscure to me.

Also, "OVERWHELMINGLY", in capitals, is not a well-defined mathematical notion; the percentage of favourable votes might be a good alternative. Rama 09:25, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Trolling again eh, Rama? House voted 296 to 133 in favor of the use of force with 81 Democrats voting in favor and siding with the Republicans...Senate vote of 77-23 also in favor sounds pretty damn overwhelming to me. About 75% is an overwhelming vote in compared to most congressional....--MONGO 09:39, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Trolling ? Could you elaborate ?

The statistics are nice, and precisely what I was calling for; why not use them as such in the article ? Rama 09:47, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Maybe I will in a day or two..don't want a violation of 3RR. Prove to me that you are neutral and put it there yourself.....2003 Invasion of Iraq.--MONGO 09:56, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I was actually putting this in the article when I checked for references to back the numbers, and I found [12]; you will note the foot: "Adopted 296-133 by the House of Representatives October 10 and 77-23 by the Senate October 11, 2002." matches the number you cite, but not the date cited in the article ("The United States congress also passed the "Iraq Liberation Act" in October 1998"). The difference between the two texts [13] and [14], give me serious doubts as to whether these are the same act: I quote, in particular : " SHORT TITLE. This Act may be cited as the `Iraq Liberation Act of 1998'." compared to "SHORT TITLE: This joint resolution may be cited as the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002. ". A little sorting and precising is likely in order here. Rama 10:25, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Fine...you are confused...I never said that the vote 296-133 and 77-23 were for anything other than the congressional vote for the "invasion" of Iraq, passed in 2002...they are two seperate points...point one...the Iraq Liberation Act was passed in 1998, while Clinton was still President and I objected to the previous use of text in the article as it referred to the act in a manner which seemed to make the reader think that Bush had the act passed, even though it was passed under Clinton. Point two was a piece of legislation, passed overwhelmingly by the congress in 2002 which authorized Bush to use force in Iraq to support the previous Iraq Liberation Act. This second legislation passed by the vote of 296-133 in the House and 77-23 in the Senate in favor of the use of force against Iraq.--MONGO 10:40, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Sorry, the fact that the two papers were subjects of changes in this edit confused me. Now we have the name of the resolution, reference to the article and result of the vote (though, to be fair, just naming and linking to the appropriate article seems sufficent to me, since the result of the vote is mentioned in the head of the said article, but whatever). Rama 12:00, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

MONGO, your edit seemed to be an attempt to score a point against some of your fellow Americans with whom you appear to have picked an argument, whereas RAMA and I are Europeans, yet you falsely accuse me of pushing leftwing views by excluding your edit. I remind you that this is an article about the invasion of a country, not the internal politics of the United States. If you want an article about political maneuvering in the USA over Iraq foreign policy, please do write one. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 10:51, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No...this article is about the "invasion" of Iraq and my edit was not an attempt to discuss internal U.S. politics, especially since the "invasion" was performed by a coalition with the U.S. leading that coalition. I simply tried to edit out left wing bias in an effort to find neutrality here...you know, the U.K. is there too, Tony...remember what your pal Bush said...America has no truer friend than Great Britian...should we put in the issues in the Parliment to balance things out?--MONGO 11:16, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't see how adding in a reference to internal US politics can be said to balance anything, or indeed what left wing bias you might have been trying to "edit out" by adding irrelevant detail. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 12:09, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

All I did was contribute facts and try to make neutral the "internal politics" already in the article...what the heck are you talking about? Look at the edit again...[[15]]...what are you talking about...there already is a discussion with internal politics in place.--MONGO 14:06, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In my view, probably a mistake, because it invited your politically motivated sniping. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 14:30, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes it was a mistake, because you are a leftist and your motivation is to ensure that articles like this only have your point of view.--MONGO 20:41, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have been somewhat following this page (not closely) and frankly I'd rather not slog through all of the above, but I've been noticing what seems to be an odd argument going on, partly here on the talk page and partly through edit warring. Normally, when we write about a war, we try to give the background of the events (political, economic, diplomatic, etc.) that could usually be seen as leading to it. Otherwise, one is just left with military history and no context.

It seems clear to me that U.S. politics are highly relevant to the Iraq War. While the invasion was nominally executed by a coalition, and certainly the UK military roel and the political/dioplomatic role of several other participants was significant, has any commentator seriously argued that this war would have occurred without U.S. leadership? That if (for example) Bush had taken a position akin to that of the French, the UK would have cobbled together a coalition and led an invasion? I can't imagine it. The confrontational U.S. political stance at all times since the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in 1990, under three presidents from two parties, is relevant background to this war, as relevant as the 1980s behaviors by Iraq that lent some credence to the claims of WMDs. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:04, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

Of course Some particular allusions to US politics are revelant. Mentionning a legal text which gives the President of the USA authority to agress another country is trivially relevant on the page dealing with the invasion of the said country. What is not relevant is the insertion of "overwelmingly" in the sentence "the House voted the text".

It is

* a petty attempt to force a positive conotation into the mind of the reader,

* It is obviously put there largely over the assumption that the reader will be a citizen of the USA (which in not necessarly the case. For instance, Tony is not a citizen os the USA; I am not a citizen of the USA; etc...)

* It is vague and imprecise (compare to giving the number of votings)

* It is very much on the verge of being off-topic and redundant, since the article which deals about the text in question,linked here, mentions the result of the vote in its first paragraph.

To finish, I would like to ask MONGO whether if he has any intention at all to stop insulting his fellow editors, or whether he could at least find creative and amusing ways to do so ? I am tired and bored of reading "you are a leftist" in half his comments, especially when the consit exclusively of this. I won't go as far as to suggest that "left" and "right" are relative and that you could as well say "I am Right-wing", but but the shake of conciseness, could you at least make it, say, "YAAL", for short ? (see the improvement in terms of information density over "Yes it was a mistake, because you are a leftist and your motivation is to ensure that articles like this only have your point of view.") Rama 06:22, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

And the phrasing that " In my view, probably a mistake, because it invited your politically motivated sniping" is supposed to be full of "information density"? Once again, I was precise and will not parrot the issue...my insertion of the information was not in any way an attempt to provoke, push a POV and or to do anything other than to address what I know is not a balanced treatment of the subject matter...where in the heck Sidaway gets a notion that I was attempting to discuss internal U.S. politics when the issue was already discussed is beyond me....the predisposition is to assume that my intent, in that I am oftentimes on the opposite side of the issue from those that are politically to the left of center, is to believe that my intentions here are to push my POV...baloney! I see little effort that can be made to eliminate the NPOV tag on this article if I can't put one small item of FACT in here that simply balances an issue that is already stated. The fact is that the U.S. Congress did pass by over a 75% the authorization to use force in Iraq in 2002, which is a mandate and acts to enforce the previous Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, this issue is relevent, it is not solely an internal U.S. issue in light of the fact that it affected the decisions, whether you like it or not, made by leaders and governments of other countries, and in some way or another affected their decisions to either go to war or to not go to war. Regardless, my main effort was to ensure that the fact that the Iraq Liberation Act was passed during the previous administration which was essentially omitted.--MONGO 08:08, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, the way to do it is put a "(1998)" right after the name of the said text. Rama 08:29, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I concur with Rama. The attempts to introduce point-scoring against perceived "leftists" is tiresome and somewhat ignores the fact that non-US people couldn't ~~give a rat's ass~~ care less which administration fostered an act that, US-people believe, authorizes the invasion of a country. Such authorization is, by treaty, outside the remit of Congress, so the point is moot. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 07:04, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I wasn't commenting on any particular adjective, just on the fact that pretty much all U.S. or UK legislation threatening Iraq in the 1990s or later is probably relevant here. And I would suggest that MONGO and Tony could both be a lot more civil on this page. Part of why I don't find myself wanting to read through all of this is that more of it communicates I'm really angry and I don't respect you than it communicates anything about the subject ostensibly at hand. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:29, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

Me and Tony and have locked horns a few times here on Wikipedia but I fail to see where Tony lacks civility on this page Jmabel. —Christiaan 09:12, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have struck out a use of the vernacular that could have given a false impression of anger, and replaced it with a phrase that correctly conveys indifference to the vagaries of internal politics. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 09:54, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

That's fine, yet it fails to explain why there is objection to facts inserted into a section which already discusses, as you put it, "internal politics".--MONGO 11:28, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

parallels to Vietnam

Tony, your cite for parallels to Vietnam, only makes a cautionary note about post election optimism, with that optimism as virtually the only parallel. Hardly relevant to this invasion article. Other coutries have also had optimism after elections, even if things do turn sour in Iraq, there will probably be better post election parallels than Vietnam, perhaps Yugoslavia? In any case, those parallels will probably be more appropriate for the articles on the post invasion phases. --Silverback 14:35, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

While the statement does seem unclear and located in the wrong part of the article, I wouldn't worry too much about it. The link goes to Counterpunch, and I'm sure pretty much everybody who follows the link will either know what Counterpunch is or figure it out pretty quickly. Anyway, I guess it's still worth correcting if you're a perfectionist, but as I say not too critical an issue (IMO). --Daniel11 14:47, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

To clarify: the statement, which I did not writer, is that some critics have compared the current situation to Vietnam. The link adequately supports the fact that critics have indeed done that. I draw no comparisons to Vietnam, I simply supported a claim that this had been done. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 15:56, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

That was the aspect that seemed inappropriate. It looked like the statement was left over from an earlier debate. This article is not about the "current" situation, but about a past situation. I expected any reinstatement of the point would reference critics who in the past while the invasion was going on, compared it to Vietnam, based on conditions that existed at that time. --Silverback 17:23, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Clearly the sentence was (and is) referring to post-May 1 events, not while the invasion was going on. It actually says so explicitly. The same word, "quagmire", still hangs on the critics' lips. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:35, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Point made is mainly that regardless of how biased a source we can find, we can find almost anything to support a predisposition if we wish to dwelve into the absurd...as we have discussed ad nauseum in the past, I can find plenty of "proof" or "opinion" in published form that says that Bigfoot is real or came here on a spaceship etc. especially from what are well know to be less than credible sources that specialize in sensationalistic reporting. I am chastized for inserting a fact while others believe that it is encyclopedic to insert an opinion from a well known biased source of information...this makes no sense to me. I call this "fishing for evidence" to support a predisposition and is done only from a desire to bolster an agenda...it could be here for no other reason.--MONGO 18:58, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

MONGO, you realise of course that we do have an article about Bigfoot ? Rama 19:31, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes Rama, I do..but do we deliberately use biased sources as "evidence" in that article...no.--MONGO 21:55, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As evidence that some people talk about Bigfoot , yes, we certainly do. Exactly the same way that we intend the demonstrate that some people compare Iraq to Viet-Nam, not that Iraq is comparable to Viet-Nam. Rama 22:18, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In light of the fact that the comparison is a poor one, then I believe that as people attempting to create a neutral article on the events, then we are acting as poor messengers when we decide to incorporate decidedly unneutral opinions...that is pushing a POV...period.--MONGO 08:07, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

We have been discussing this for some time. I have already said that accirding to this kind of argument, we should also remove all mentions of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, since the references to that were also arguably "poor" and "POV". Yet we do incorporate them, because they were an important leitmotiv in the discussions about the war in Iraq. Similarly, comparisons to Viet-Nam are an important leitmotiv when speaking about Iraq (even US generals keep making the comparison).

No, I would solemny invite you for the n-th time to stop doubting the honest motivations and good faith of your fellow editors. Your constant reference to "POV pushing this", "unneutral that" without ever being able to point anything concrete, your constant ignoring of my explanations of this particular topic, are disturbing th normal process of the improvement of this article. If you think that you can instile doubt in the reliability of the article or in the honesty of other contributors simply by repeating "POV" often enough, you are mistaken. Rama 08:33, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy is to report significant opinions, preferably by attributing them to prominent spokespersons. MONGO repeatedly tries to prevent Wikipedia from reporting significant opinions with which he disagrees. He doesn't try to change the general policy; he just snipes away at particular instances and tries to get articles to violate the policy, with his proposed violations almost always favoring the right wing. He has exhibited this pattern quite prominently in his editing of the George W. Bush article. It appears to me to be a waste of time to argue with him on the basis of what the current NPOV policy actually says. He simply doesn't agree with that policy, or at least he doesn't agree with its fair and uniform application. JamesMLane 16:07, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I see. IN other words, I can expect you to be neutral in articles that have a strong predisposition to be polarizied from you, especially when their user page states they are hostile to the right wing....give me a break buddy. Furthermore, your constant insinuation that I am the one that is inflexible is ridiculous. I can cite numerous times in a number of articles that I have either conceded to the consensus or have allowed a passge to remain so long as I went on the record as having disputed it...and allowed others an opportunity to also dispute what the left wing liberals like to protect as benchmarks.--MONGO 12:41, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I never said I was neutral, so your refutation of that supposed claim is an example of the straw man technique. None of us is completely neutral. What you have a right to expect is not that I'll be neutral, but that my edits will conform to the neutrality policy. Nor do I think I've insinuated that you're inflexible. What I've said is that your arguments about specific edits are not consistent with Wikipedia's policy about reporting notable opinions. In your response here, you've again avoided that issue. I stand by my statement. JamesMLane 13:19, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Counterpunch is neither the best nor the worst citation I could imagine for pointing this out. Something less tendentious would probably be better. Multiple citations of analogies would probably be in order. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:14, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

National Enquirer or similar tabloidish material would be better...at least they may be funny in their preposterousness.--MONGO 21:55, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I judge the quality of the "source" for articles on Counterpunch.org by who wrote the article, just recently there was an article from Ralph Nadar quoting Robert Novak's recent article that the U.S. will likely begin withdrawing from Iraq this year. Also, it's convenient to try to bash the quality of the source when the article is for example written by a fellow professor of Ward Churchill's at the U of CO (that is what makes the citation relevant, not the fact the article appeared on counterpunch.org), on the ward churchill talk page someone tried repeatedly to bash counterpunch.org as a source, I kept pointing out the article was written entirely by a colleague of Churchill's (they ignored this point). zen master T 22:25, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This whole thing is beside the point. The statement was that opponents of the Iraqi occupation had invoked Iraq. Predictably enough, they had. This is a high quality source for the fact that war opponents invoke Vietnam. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 23:33, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I do not agree that it is a high quality source.--MONGO 08:07, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

MONGO, I'm not sure I should take you seriously on saying that you view Counterpunch as less of a source than the National Enquirer, but, frankly, the main thing statements like that do is reduce your own credibility as a judge of sources. You seem to be saying, in effect, "I don't share their politics, so they can't be worth citing". You might as well just say, "hi, I'm not here to work on making this article accurate, I'm here to steer it as close to my own views as possible." That's not what this is supposed to be about. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:03, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

Jmabel, you couldn't be more mistaken. Naturally, National Enquirer is a joke. Counterpunch has a liberal tilt overall. Your comment has no material to add other than to be construed as a personal attack on me. I see nothing of substance in your comment that discusses whether the current statements in the article comparing Vietnam to Iraq are to be allowed or to be eliminated...other than to provoke and to insult, what purpose does your comment have?--MONGO 08:03, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

My comment was about your rhetoric, which was (presumably deliberately) provocative. (If it wasn't deliberate, then go back and re-read what you wrote.) If you sling mud, expect to get some on your own clothes. I'd be more than glad to ratchet this down, but not unilaterally.

BTW, Counterpunch is many things, but it is certainly not "liberal", except in a very broad sense of the word where virtually all Americans are "liberal". It is leftist, well to the left of anyone who would typically be called a liberal, and it is roughly as critical of liberals as it is of conservatives. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:29, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

The question of whether or not Counterpunch is liberal is beside the point. Counterpunch contains articles in which parallels are drawn with Vietnam, therefore it is an unimpeachable source of support for a Wikipedia statement reporting that some commentators have compared the post-Iraq invasion situation to Vietnam. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:59, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

How short our memories are. Just 3 years ago the war in Afghanistan prompted hundreds of comparisons to Vietnam as well. Between October 1, 2001, and October 1, 2002, the New York Times ran nearly 300 articles with the words Vietnam and Afghanistan in them. On day 24 of the Afghan campaign, Times's muckety-muck R. W. Apple revived the Q-word — which to liberals can only mean Vietnam — in a thumb-sucker titled "A Military Quagmire Remembered: Afghanistan as Vietnam."

All of this talk of Iraq being like Vietnam is just another horseshit scare tactic.

I am sorry but Iraqi is not Vietnam. The enemy in Iraq overwhelmingly Sunni Muslims and they're largely confined to the Iron Triangle defined by the Baghdad suburbs in the south, Tikrit in the north, and Ramadi and Fallujah to the west, in Vietnam the. They are not drawn from a wide swath of Iraq’s population and if they tried to mingle among the peoples they oppressed for 40 years, the Kurds and Turkomens in the north and the Shiites in the south, they wouldn't last a New York minute.

They don't fight to unify their homeland under communist tyranny, but to regain a brutal minority's power over an enslaved majority. They were the privileged class under Saddam Hussein and they don't want to let go of the BMWs, the mansions and the other perks. They have no Ho Chi Minh to put a kindly and sympathetic face on their murderous designs. They don't have a China or a Soviet Union to pump in weapons and ammunition and carry the ball for them in the United Nations and internationally. They don't have the sanctuaries that afforded easy shelter and protection for the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese. Not even Iran wants to be caught providing shelter for these people.

So, what then are the parallels?

Well, leftists sure seem to love the terrorists, I mean “resistance”, in Iraq. I see demonstrators marching for these thugs, just like in Vietnam.

Vietnam is still a fond memory for lefties. For them it was a great "victory," against the boogeyman of US imperialism, although the U.S. defeat resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese by execution and re-education. Far from feeling remorse for their collaboration in this bloodbath, they've been eagerly awaiting a rerun ever since.

But if we want to have this in the article, I will make sure to point out the hundreds of differences between the two. TDC 18:31, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

Blah blah blah. Of course you miss the point that reporting that the comparison has been made is wholly different from making the comparison. —Christiaan 20:11, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Seriously, did you cry when my boys blew Uday and Qusay away? TDC 19:20, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

Oh whosa poor little baby? Having trouble staying on topic I see today. —Christiaan 21:54, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sure, so long as the fact that there was a comparisom helps to bolster the lefty leanings of this article it is easy to apply that rule for you...doubtful that it would be so allowed if the comparisom was made to show the opposite.--MONGO 18:58, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Have you looked at *who* makes the Vietnam comparison in the article cited? "Bill Christison joined the CIA in 1950, and served on the analysis side of the Agency for 28 years. From the early 1970s he served as National Intelligence Officer (principal adviser to the Director of Central Intelligence on certain areas) for, at various times, Southeast Asia, South Asia and Africa. Before he retired in 1979 he was Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis, a 250-person unit." This isn't just some random leftie, it's someone with experience in US involvement in Southeast Asia. I'm not arguing that he's right, only that his is a significant voice. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 19:09, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am most certainly not arguing that the material not be included. I am arguing that if the material is to be included, there is more than enough material from non-Philip-Agee-wannabes that completely refutes is. Christison may have spent alot of time in the CIA, but that does not make him any less of a tard. TDC 19:20, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

My addition of John McCain's speech balanced that and is just as significant.--MONGO 19:16, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely. I don't know why TDC is still making an issue of it. We're not here to argue whether Christison or McCain is right. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 22:10, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Because he wants to and has that right. But again, I see that the need to constantly find either negative or positive items on a situation to bolster a political agenda ends up making the articles look like mudslinging contests and dwelve into areas of the subject that are so ephemeral that they add nothing of substance to the main focus of the subject.--MONGO 12:45, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Merging

Following articles and more should be merged. They all talk about the same material. Some are just POV oriented. This is NOT your political playground. I will be moving material around. I need HELP. I dont care what your problems are regarding the matter. I am not happy with the Invasion Personaly, however this does not mean we can start political debates. Everyone has their views regarding the thing. I dont want to hear it. Please focus on merging thse 10s of articles litterting wikipedia. If you are Pro Bush Anti bush pro america anti america, or what ever you are last thing you want is the other Parties views be published. We can merge these articles into 2-4 articles. I am listing the articles that should be merged: --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 11:00, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Also items in:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:2003_Iraq_conflict

I know I am being drastic but the category desperately requires SIGNIFICANT improvement at once. There are articles related that are not in the Article category tree. I listed some. There is more. Do not clutter my wikipedia with your personal conflicts between each other. You are welcome to have civil discussions, I prefer E-mail or some other median Each article has .5 meg of archive material. All talking about the same thing. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 11:08, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) I didnt bother checking this article before, what the heck were admins doing? --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 11:09, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree with u that there is a lot of repatition, but i disagree that all these pages can be merged into one with out significant loss of information. The Global protests against war on Iraq for instance were/are a significant historical event in their own right (epsciallt feb 15th, the anervercery of which was featured on the main page anvercercy bit). Please discuse stuff before u start doing anything to drastic.--JK the unwise 14:54, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I just wanted to take some attention. We need to merge anti-pro iraq war and official foverment view into one article. Ill be creating an article under my user page to show you guys what I am doing. IF you havent noticed I did not touch the articles. Wikipedia is very slow at the moment however. Opinions and facts should definately be seperate. Article should not need a {{disputed}} tag when we are done. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 00:45, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'll help. 119 00:55, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't see significant duplication. If you look at Support and opposition for the 2003 invasion of Iraq you'll see that it's essentially an umbrella page, listing several related articles with a capsule description of the scope of each one. You say, "Everyone has their views regarding the thing. I dont want to hear it." Which people hold which views, and what reasons they advance, and how they acted on those views, are all encyclopedic facts. If you don't want to hear it, don't read the articles. Reporting POVs is not POV. Any POV problems with a specific article should be addressed by editing that article, not by merging. JamesMLane 04:20, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Need for an overview article?

Perhaps this 2003 Invasion of Iraq article should become a subpage of a wider "U.S.-Iraq War" or similar article which covers the lead-up, invasion, and occupation (Post-invasion Iraq, 2003-2005? 119 00:54, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Old evidence of massive pro-war psychological propaganda operation

I've never heard of this website before but it was linked from a more reputable site and it appears to have a summary of a 2003 report by a retired air force Colonel that documents the psychological propaganda operations used to trick the U.S. and British publics into support for the 2003 Iraq war here. How much of this should be put into this or other relevant articles? I will look for corroborating URLs. Much of this information seems new to me but the date give is 2003. zen master T 06:31, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Some tidbits include (bolding is my emphasis):

The Times of London described the $200-million-plus US operation as a "meticulously planned strategy to persuade the public, the Congress, and the allies of the need to confront the threat from Saddam Hussein.

The multimillion-dollar propaganda campaign run out of the White House and Defense Department was, in Gardiner's final assessment "irresponsible in parts" and "might have been illegal".

Washington and London did not trust the peoples of their democracies to come to the right decisions," Gardiner explains. Consequently, "Truth became a casualty. When truth is a casualty, democracy receives collateral damage." For the first time in US history, "we allowed strategic psychological operations to become part of public affairs... [W]hat has happened is that information warfare, strategic influence, [and] strategic psychological operations pushed their way into the important process of informing the peoples of our two democracies".

The criticism was so severe that the White House backed away from the plan. But on November 18, several months after the furor had died down, Rumsfeld arrogantly announced that he had not been deterred. "If you want to savage this thing, fine: I'll give you the corpse. There's the name. You can have the name, but I'm gonna keep doing every single thing that needs to be done -- and I have".

Gardiner's dogged research identified a long list of stories that passed through Rumsfeld's propaganda mill. According to Gardiner, "there were over 50 stories manufactured or at least engineered that distorted the picture of Gulf II for the American and British people."

Every one of these stories received extensive publicity and helped form indelible public impressions of the "enemy" and the progress of the invasion. Every one of these stories was false.

Gardiner notes that cocked-up stories about Saddam's WMDs "was only a very small part of the strategic influence, information operations and marketing campaign conducted on both sides of the Atlantic." The "major thrust" of the campaign, Gardiner explains, was "to make a conflict with Iraq seem part of a struggle between good and evil. Terrorism is evil... we are the good guys.

The second thrust is what propaganda theorists would call the 'big lie.' The plan was to connect Iraq with the 9/11 attacks. Make the American people believe that Saddam Hussein was behind those attacks.

The means for pushing the message involved: saturating the media with stories, 24/7; staying on message; staying ahead of the news cycle; managing expectations; and finally, being prepared to "use information to attack and punish critics.

Time and again, US reporters accepted the CIC news leaks without question. Among the many examples that Gardiner documented was the use of the "anthrax scare" to promote the administration's pre-existing plan to attack Iraq.

In both the US and the UK, "intelligence sources" provided a steady diet of unsourced allegations to the media to suggest that Iraq and Al Qaeda terrorists were behind the deadly mailing of anthrax-laden letters.

It wasn't until December 18, that the White House confessed that it was "increasingly looking like" the anthrax came from a US military installation. The news was released as a White House "paper" instead of as a more prominent White House "announcement." As a result, the idea that Iraq or Al Qaeda were behind the anthrax plot continued to persist. Gardiner believes this was an intentional part of the propaganda campaign. "If a story supports policy, even if incorrect, let it stay around."

For now, this could be featured only aither as "some people say...", either in "external links". If the most proeminent statements of the page can be confirmed indedently, then perhaps they would be topical in something like rationals for the Iraq War or something like this (there is an article out there with a similar name). Rama 07:24, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Serious consequences 2

MONGO, you say that

U.S. and U.K. argued for 8 weeks with France about the terminology of "serious consequences"

This picture is very innexact. Neither France, nor Russia, not China, nor the USA, nor the UK, said that the "serious consequences" meant an automatic approval for a war. Official from the USA and UK specifically stated the opposite, as is said in this very article:

The language of the resolution mentioned "serious consequences", which is generally not understood by Security Council members to include the use of force to depose the government. Both the U.S. ambassador to the UN, John Negroponte, and the UK ambassador Jeremy Greenstock, in promoting Resolution 1441 on 8 November 2002, had given assurances that it provided no "automaticity," no "hidden triggers", no step to invasion without consultation of the Security Council

Since no resolution was specifically passed afterward,which autorised an aggression against Iraq, the sentence "It began without the explicit backing of the United Nations Security Council" is perfectly accurate, and is a better rendering than "The matter caused heated debate in the Security Council, and there is great disagreement about whether the phrase 'serious consequences'(SC resoultion 1441) was an authorization for war or not." If you can provide specific statements made by officials of any member of the Security Council which say, in the context of the UN, that Resolution 1441 autorises war, you are welcome to contribute them. However, in the absance of such references, the latter version is much less accurate than the first one. Rama 09:07, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Rama...you are so wrong...there was a big debate on this issue...perhaps changing the wording is fine but altering the message is not...nothing in the edit I made says that the UN security council did agree that the terminology for "serious consequences" gave explicit backing for an act of war..the phrase does, however attempt to show that there has been an ongoing debate about the terminology essentially outside of the confines of the UN by governments etc....regardless...the wiki article itself on the resolution discusses the arguments between primarily France/Russia and the U.S./U.K. on this wording...UN Security Council Resolution 1441--MONGO 09:17, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think that you have misread the article. it says that there were 8 weeks of discussion about what would be in the resolution, before it was passed. Not 8 weeks of discussions as to what interpretation should be given to the resolution, once it was passed. The version which you promote is very misleading. Rama 09:22, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Let me look at it..I will work to make it NPOV--MONGO 09:23, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I appreciate your dedication, but I think that the original version is the best that I have seen for now. If you like, you might want to linkify the original version to the relevant article, and add comments on further developments there. But retrospective attempts by people who are not even government officials to a posteriori justify something does not belong to the lead section of this article. Rama 09:57, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree then...my last edit before the child reverted was fair and neutral...--MONGO 10:01, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Edit by 66.65.117.165

You got there first Rama. I was simply going to add the results: human rights abuses and an increase in terrorism. But I guess you're right, such aspects were not "targets".

I don't think that the results can be taken as a criteria for the reasons for a war; one can have objectives and fail.

My revert was motivated by the fact that neither "human rights abuses" nor "terrorism" were officially presented as reasons for the planned invasion of Iraq -- though they wre indeed stated retrospectively by US officials, and of course, largely commented upon by the media. But saying that they were reasons for the "intervention" is extremely inexact. Rama 23:58, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yeah that's what I meant. —Christiaan 00:00, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Baloney...it was reported as one of the reasons for waging war...read our own article on said situation...Human rights in Saddam's Iraq.--MONGO 07:20, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

By whom ?

The diferent trends of thoughts about the war are discussed later on in the article, but the summary box and first paragraphs include only official positions and are well so.

Again, if you can provide citations of officials staing before the Security Counci of the UN that the invasion would be motivated by these considerations, you are welcome to provide them, and I will be curious. But it is important to clearly distinguish between the official stance of the US government and the innumerous reports, comments and marketing event aimed at the US or world public opinions, which are something interesting and relevant, but different. For instance, neo-conservative media and think-tanks might influence or motivate US policies, but they are not the ones who officially define it, this is for ambassadors, ministers and heds of states to do. Rama 08:24, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Why would they have to be before the security council? Those would only be the reasons that diplomats thought might result in security council support for the war. Given the members of the security council, it would be less than diplomatic to bring up human rights violations, they might feel threatened.--Silverback 08:57, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. And the policiy of a country is definied by its officials (beore the Security Council, or in other official speaches). Rama 09:06, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Search this site for "human rights" [16]. Evidently Powell was undiplomatic, because he brought it up, although briefly and with apparent trepidation.--Silverback 09:19, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Listen, if you have something concrete to prove that the official policy of the United States of America stated something more than weapon concerns, please provide documentation. I am not going to waste my time arguing over nothing. Rama 09:24, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Powell's speech was before the UN, before the liberation. It is exactly what you asked for. Are you changing the standard?--Silverback 09:31, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Let us take the example of the discourse of Bush, Aznar and Blair in the Azores [17]; this very "shameless" discourse, where main actors of the "coallition of the Willing" "show their cards" (to repeat the metophore used by Bush), so we can safely assume that they are saying most of what they have on their mind, without bothering much about the Security Council of the United Nations.

For the Human Rights, you note that they mention "Human Rights" en passant, but only to mention that they will enforce them when they occupy Iraq (probably, as you mentioned, in a way as not to irritate the numerous partners and allies of the United States who would be at odds with the concept). But the very obvious absence of this item tends to nuance the argument gravely.
For "terrorism", there are of course a number of instances, but they are very vague and it is difficult to tell the allusions to supposed links to Al Qaida-style organisation (or meta-organisation), or "state terrorism".

Do, overall, I am mitigated. One who would like to see these items present or abstent from the article will see arguments for either way. I don't have a pre-constructed opinion on this, but reading by the texts, I find the points vague and imprecise. What I am quite certain of is that

right-wing looneys will love to point at these to justify a posteriory an illegal and ultimately pointless aggression (I mean, to defend the invasion against accusations of pointlessness. I do not take these statements as my own)
left-wing looneys will love to point at these to mention that the situation of Human Rights has not significantly changed under US occupation, and that the connections to Al-Qaida has proved to be forgeries or gross errors.

I say this to suggest extra caution since this items, on top of being unclear and debatable, are an obvious playground for trolls. Good luck with the "alleged"/"allegedly" too... Rama 13:28, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hence the discussion and the reason for the POV tag onj this article. I could care less for the most part as to what goes in the target box, but do think that this should be in the body of the text. It would be a lie to suggest that the situation involving human rights abuses was NOT one of the official reasons for the "invasion"...perhaps it wasn't stated in so many words, but it certainly was well documented by many well regarded organizations ranging from Amnesty International to the International Red Cross, hardly right wing looneys....Powells speech and repeated commentary leading up to the "invasion" would mention human rights abuses..ie: gassed the Kurds, murder and genocide of political opponents (including relatives)...these were words constantly used by Powell, Bush et al.--MONGO 18:52, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Powell speech has a description of the al Qaeda/Iraq links as well, notably Zarqawi.--Silverback 13:53, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Cybercast New Service"

The recently cited Cybercast New Service: I'm guessing this should be "News Service". I've never heard of it. Is it at all a credible source? It seems remarkable if they have a credible claim of Iraqi possession of WMDs and it has remained as such a minor report, given the controversy there had been over the question, and the even the U.S. gov't does not claim, even now, to have found any credible evidence of such. In short, is there anything here solid enough to belong in an encyclopedia? -- Jmabel | Talk 02:22, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

The only part of the cited article that would really be new information would be the purchase of the mustard gas and anthrax. The rest is consistent with what was already known. I doubt a document would be good enough evidence to make much of a splash. There has been a lot of denial that the chemical shell containing a binary nerve agent that was found constituted WMD, so would a vial of mustard gas, or anthrax be "enough" to be considered a find of WMD?--Silverback 05:08, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The value of the Cybercast "exclusive" is also diminished by their failure to post copies of all the documents and their translations, only the first page was posted. Evidently, some of the documents are signed. Good journalism would involve tracking down the signatories and/or validating their signatures by comparison with other documents.--Silverback 05:25, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

So do you think there is any value to this addition to the article? I think not, and would like to revert it. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:45, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

I would have no objection to either it being deleted or counterpoints added about the lack of full disclosure, and cooberating evidence.--Silverback 06:45, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think it should be deleted. They did actually eventually post the rest of the documents online, but there still has been no discussion of these documents in any mainstream media source that I am aware of. They only seem to be acknowledged by bloggers, some of whom doubt their authenticity. Until someone actually reads what the documents say and reaches a conclusion independent of cnsnews, I don't think the claim should remain in wikipedia. --csloat 09:36, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Cybercast is a very small independent. I doubt whether they have the resources to check this document, and none of the other news sources are touching it with a bargepole. At the current stage, it's as if we just gave Matt Drudge a live feed to a sidebar in our articles. Let's leave it unless and until it passes the fact-checking of one of the main players. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 10:22, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That's very ambiguous. Can I presume "leave it" means "leave it out", not "leave it in"? That seems to fit with the rest of what you are saying and with the apparent consensus. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:33, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

I meant "leave it out." I removed it myself, then someone restored it with better wording, which I then edited. I'd rather not have it at all because it has a bad smell. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 20:56, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it is not necessary, everthing except the mustard gas and anthrax, has better sources available, such as Powells speech to the UN Security Council. The WMD, is the only part that seems new, and we need more to hang a hat on.--Silverback 21:14, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)