Talk:Hans-Joachim Marseille

unsourced and speculative

this si about the following paragraph in the article:

Many, like Adolf Galland considered him to be the best ace of the war. Marseille scored most of his victories against the Tomahawks, Kittyhawks, Hurricanes and Spitfires of the well-trained RAF and Commonwealth pilots in North Africa, whereas the majority of the other German aces scored most of their victories in the Russian theatre, where targets where much more numerous.

now can anyone prove that? to the best of my knowledge, Tomahawks were outdated by the start of the war, being sent in lend-lease because that's all the yanks had extra before they joined. as well the aircraft sent to Africa were second line, as the best and newest fighters were all being used at home to protect Britain, so this paragraph has no purpose but to continue the standard western stereotyping of the Soviets. (I am from Canada, so I am not a bleeding heart in Russia trying to make my country seem great). the Highest scoring Russian ace had 80 victories, the highest western ally: 32. Somewhere in there facts dont match with the speculation put out in the article. and I dont like the terming of the last sentence "targets" implies that they were basically sitting ducks. the Russian fighters were not obsolete, sure the I-16 and others at the start of Barbarossa were outdated, but tehy were being phased out at the time, and by the end of teh war the Russians were using soem great flying machines, not to mention that through lend-lease they were flying American planes, so claiming they were obsolete is, well ludicrous.

--Jadger 05:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I've got no opinion on what was/wasn't outdated, as I really know very little about the craft. I'll point out the POV fact that it's possible Soviet aces numbers were exaggerated as per Vassili Zaitsev or something, though of course that can always cut both directions...but I do definitely agree about the word "targets" having a pov implication, and it should be changed. Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 05:55, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

not to mention that the paragraph is wrong, in that the Tomahawk and Kittyhawk are exactly the same thing. Unfortunately I do not know how to rewrite the paragraph, although I'm not even sure if it is even needed at all, should we delete it?

--Jadger 02:19, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

A llok at the top 10 Germans with articles from Flying_ace#World_War_II shows me 4 Eastern, 1 Northern and 1 Southern front, and 4 Westerns...so I agree, just nix the paragraph Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 02:32, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The Tomahawk and Kittyhawk were different marks/models of the basic P-40. I think personally the difference should be maintianed as the kittyhawk was a more refined and thus more difficult opponent for marseille and the Lutftwaffe as the war wore on [[Harryurz 13:15, 14 April 2006 (UTC)]]

incorrect, the Kittyhawk is the British name for the Tomahawk. this type of naming can be seen in all different kinds of lendlease aircraft the British used from the Americans. It may have been more advanced because it used the British Engines and was newer then the prewar variants called the tomahawk in America.

--Jadger 18:27, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect 'kittyhawk' and 'Tomahawk' are not the same. These were both RAF names for distinctly different marks/versions of the P-40. The RAF gave their lend-lease aircraft 'proper' names ( as with the P-40) that often became unoffically adopted by the American forces ( though the Americans used the 'warhawk' name for various modles of P-40 ). Thus the 'Tomahawk IIA & IIB' was the P-40B and C and Kittyhawk I was the P-40D, Kittyhawk II was the P-40F , etc. Harryurz 12:57, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter now does it? we don't need to get in an argument over it, the offending paragraph has been removed. but I would like to point out that the Kittyhawk and Tomahawk were indeed the same thing, take for instance the typhoon, when in the CAP role it was the Typhoon, but in the interceptor/air superiority role it was named differently. There was of course differences in them to fit them to their role, but they were essentially the same aircraft.

--Jadger 14:41, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, deleting this paragraph was wrong. First of all, you had no real facts that spoke against it, just your POV. On the other hand, the Luftwaffe also had much more important fronts like the Battle of Britain or the Eastern Front, where good aircrafts were needed more badly. I have not the knowledge but who says that the Me-109 for the DAK where allways up to date? There existed various versions of this plane and who can say that they aint just send the outdated ones. Also, the battle of britain lastet up to 41 but the desert war up to 43 and germany was in a desperate position at the eastern front. I guess you can assume that at this point, the british brought their best planes down there but the germans needed their best planes on the eastern front. Also i do believe that the british pilots were better trained than their soviet counterparts because great britain neither got the manpower nore the masses of airplanes that would allow such a worse training which would result in massive losses. On the other hands, masses instead of quality was exactly the soviet tactics. Even if you look at their often badly trained tank divisions or infantry.

Death

Is it actually ironic that his death came in his most productive month? I mean surely if at some stage you were being sent up more often you would expect both a higher success rate and a higher chance of being shot down? That's not really ironic then - unless you're Alanis Morrisette, I guess.

"Ironically" is for my humble opinion definitely POV. You could also say "tragically". Someone rewrite it please.

Last Mission

The article says his last mission was a bomber escort, but the essay referenced at the bottom says it was a fighter sweep. Just wanting to make sure the article is right, which was it?

Well spotted, I have another source that calls the mission 'a patrol'. In the absence of a definitive answer I will generalise the wording of the article to 'mission' unless you can think of a better solution?Mumby 19:45, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Ironic Death Reply

I'm not one her fans, so I don't get the Joke.

Yes infact it was ironic. Luftwaffe forces in North Africa were outnumbered from May 1942 onwards, and flew comparable numbers of missions until its defeat in Tunisia. My point was that since there were just as numerous targets in May-August 1942 as there were in September 1942 Marseille was far more productive in those thirty days as he had been over the previous six months. Infact what makes it more ironic is that Allied Pilots were far better trained and 'more aggressive in the air' as Marseille himself said, in the latter half of 1942 than they were before..........thus its ironic.

Hence I added back the sentence.

Dapi89 13:50, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Last Mission

Guys,

In Franz Kurowski's German Fighter Ace: Hans-Joachim Marseille (1994) it clearly states his last mission as a Stuka escort mission. Also Fritz Dettmann, Mein Freund Marseille (1944)refers to this being the case.

Just out of interest the former mentions a telephone call made to Marseille by Erwin Rommel on the 28th September, asking him to go with him to Berlin to meet Hitler at the Berliner Sportsplatz on the 30th. Marseille refused this offer. When he was falling to death he could have been safely back in berlin!

Dapi89 13:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)