User talk:Graculus
Hi. In order to do the "time thing", use tildes: ~~~ gives you your User name, ~~~~ gives you your User name plus the time. RickK 00:28 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Hello there, welcome to the 'pedia! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. If you need pointers on how we title pages visit Wikipedia:Naming conventions or how to format them visit our manual of style. If you have any other questions about the project then check out Wikipedia:Help or add a question to the Village pump. Cheers! --maveric149
Hi. I see you made some comments on the talk page of New Imperialism. You might be interested to know there is a vote on there at the moment on whether Pizza Puzzle's temp page should be linked to the main page or be linked to the talk page. As you have shown an interest in the topic you might wish to express your preference. The article is currently protected. I did so to allow the community to decide the issue, as all appeals to Pizza Puzzle to wait and let the community decide first fell on deaf ears. As soon as a decision is taken at least one problem will have been solved with that page. Thank you and happy voting. :-) FearÉIREANN 15:52 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Go ahead and edit to your hearts content. Im not the one who protects pages. Pizza Puzzle
Why cut out so much important text? New Imperialism is essentially the trend in the late nineteenth century to convert the relationships of W. Europe's main colonial powers with the world outside Europe, which before had been largely "informal" (with missionaries, adventurers, and business establishing ties with the outside world), into a formal colonial one (characterized by military occupation, territorial claims, etc.). You were cutting out text that dealt with the causes of the transition from informal control to formal control and the motives of formal imperial expansion. Thus, it would be appropriate to propose ways of dividing the article (and the new table of contents looks great, doesn't it?) rather than hacking away at it until you get it under 32. There are many long articles (for instance, WWII is way over the length limit). Would you hack away at WWII or propose a way of dividing it? BTW, it would be best to restore PP's version on the temp page. I'm warning you, he'll have a fit if you don't. 172 08:33, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I'm willing to extend an offer that we tone down or frankly hateful exchanges on the talk page. I'm very willing to recognize that the article has problems. The section on Russia was almost entirely rewritten from my initial postings. And yes, it is horrendous and irrelevant. But a section on Russia is still necessary. The sentences that you also pointed out are awful. The section on the word "imperialism" isn't the best, but I thought that it was a good idea when a well-intentioned user added it. However, the fundamental difference between us is that I'm willing to spend time clarifying the problem areas rather than hack away at them. Please, be patient. Let's all take Tannin's advice. 172 16:41, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I'm not hateful at all, indeed I was looking forward to collaborating with you until the reversion episode. I now have nowhere accessible to put my version as the page has been protected yet again, most unwisely in my view. You seem intent on suppressing any version other than your own, with the support, regrettably, of some admins.
I've spent a lot of time improving the poor state of an article previously rendered all but unreadable by successive edits, while others debate a (temp) article that isn't even there at the moment, unless you've reverted that too. I don't understand how you can consider the present version superior in anything but quantity.
You seem willing to compromise, but exclusively on your own terms. The last thing I wanted was an edit conflict (I wasn't going to participate any further, but leave others to make appropriate amendments), but after your frankly offensive immediate reversion of my painstaking draft to one that I consider substandard, I'm not about to let it rest there.
As for "hacking", I'd like others to be in a position to judge which is the more hacked about and which the more informed and balanced, but you seem afraid of that. Graculus 17:00, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I think that much of your opposition centers on all your charges of advancing the "accumulation theory." The article presents the clamor for markets, but does so in a balanced fashion. However, economics must be included in any balanced account. After all, the leading promoters of imperialism, such as Joseph Chamberlain and Jules Ferry advocated colonialism from this standpoint. Among recent scholars, no one any more seriously doubts that capitalist pressures were the primary reason for Britain's imperial expansion in the nineteenth century. But the dominant recent scholars have moved away from crude neo-Marxist or Hobsonian reductionisms, reconciling economic developments with far more complicated realities of Britain's imperial record. The section on the theories offers an alternative to the neo-Marxist or Hobsonian-inspired scholarship. Porter, Hopkins, and Cain aren't Marxist historians, but take into account the drive for markets.
You know very well that Britain and the lesser powers built up their formal empires gradually. Much of the time, formal control was an effort to rescue adventuring entrepreneurs or protect major investments and loans in markets where investments were not secure. Egypt is a notable example of economic ties evolving into formal control when the Khedive couldn't live up on his loans. A key shift during this era, however, was the increasing interest among British officials in securing investments made when trading with 'half-civilized men.'
However, the article isn't merely taking one side or looking at one trend. Changes in the continental balance of power, especially the unifications of Germany and Italy, are greatly considered. Right now, the article doesn’t merely present the Lenin thesis, but reconciles capitalist pressures with other realities. 172 17:51, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- I am willing to compromise, my terms or yours. Don't assume that I'm not unaware of the article's problems. But I'm sure that they can be fixed by copyediting for readability and clarifying sections that have been subject to far to many revisions than just chopping away at the text until it's no longer over the length limit. So far, the sections on Russia and alliances need the most work, but they shouldn't be removed. The topics of these sections are crucial historically, regardless of the awful prose. 172 17:56, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- Let me clarify something. Most of the article is fine, esp. considering the complexity of the subject matter. The sections on Britain and Russia and the Anglo-French Entente are really the only horrendous ones. 172 18:09, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Im a bit confused. You didnt edit New Imperialism (temp) - you deleted it and replaced it with a bunch of stuff from New Imperialism -- I like the idea of tables of contents....but why did u overwrite the previous temp article? Pizza Puzzle
I reverted the changes to the temp because it was such a fundamental overwrite -- an essential deletion of my temp page. I tried to move the text but, it being over 32k, my browser has difficulties with such text. Pizza Puzzle
Since we are the two participants in the ongoing edit war, we can work this out between us. Do I have your permission to post a version edited for readability? If you dislike it, you can revert to the version being protected right now. However, I must warn you that I haven't had the chance to work on the Anglo-French Entente yet. 172 18:30, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Scholars continue to debate the causes and ramifications of the "New Imperialism"; most notably, the relationship this period has with the Great War and the Long Depression. The New Imperialist Era coincides with the rise of Germany, Italy, Japan, and the United States; and, during this period, China and Latin America were beginning to industrialize. This is the era of Leopold II, Napoleon III, Wilhelm II, Chamberlain, Cleveland, Crispi, Disraeli, Ferry, Kipling, McKinley, Meiji, Milner, Rhodes, Roosevelt, and Von Bismarck. This era coincides with the beginings of Romanticism.
I believe that the article must have a paragraph such as this. A primary reason I reverted your temp version without reading it - was because it lacked this Pizza Puzzle